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Richard4444 wrote:

Kampuchea wrote:

Richard4444 wrote:How can he really coach if our orginal roster was: 3 rookies (Knox, Trier and Mitch), 3 sophomores with little playing time in NBA (Frank, Dotson and Kornet), 4 former busts who hardly would stay (Mario, Vonleh, Burke and Mudd), 2 Near Retirement players (Lance and Lee), 1 Injured player (KP). And the most experienced healthy players at their prime was Tim and Kanter? That was a tank roster from the beginning. That was almost uncoachable.

To make things worst 50 to 90% of the roster will not stay. And by next season the team system will be changed to please our new Max FA signings.

So he can't coach because of the roster?

Even if the players suck, defense is driven a bunch by effort and I have seen a consistent lack of effort. Lack of effort is something the coach definitely needs to be held accountable for, at least partially.

It's not all bad, he at least plays the younger players which coaches like Horny did not want to do.

There is a good chance our roster sucks again next year, so he also can't really coach again next year as well?

The points are:

1) Our rookies and sophomores players dont have enough experience, developed individuals skills set, developed physical tools to properly execute team play. They are too green. You have to keep explaining basic things. You have to try to keep things too simple.

2) Fomer (?) busts players dont have a great skill set, will problably leave the team and they are more interested in individuals stats than team development.

3) Veteran players will not stay in team and dont have physical conditional or skill set to make a great difference.

How can you coach a team that half of the roster has yet to learn the Basic of NBA and the other half will leave the team and not interested in team play? And all you gonna reach will not matter at all because you have to star over next season with a totally new roster and the main focus of the team will switch to Durant, Irving and AD/Zion/Beal.

No issue with the comments you made 1, 2 or 3. Nobody will argue the players are not that good or experienced.

The red is where we will not agree. You are saying "how can you coach" as if it is not possible but I am going to completely disagree with you there. I actually think younger players new to the NBA are the most coachable as they have so much to learn and be taught, including coaching them the basics!

Saying he can't coach because of the roster and that even if he could "reach" it doesn't matter......sorry I think those are both completely wrong.

He can't win with this roster? That is a given. He can't "coach" because of the roster? WRONG

A young team is a lot more malleable than an older team. He could have them cutting on every single play, and they wouldn't know any better not to. You think he could get Lebron or Harden or Westbrook to do that? The young team excuse is stale. They are more coachable now than they will ever be again.

thebuzzardman wrote:Whatever the issues are, it's everyone's fault but Fizzles.

On the contrary. It’s no one’s fault besides Fizzles.

Sark wrote:A young team is a lot more malleable than an older team. He could have them cutting on every single play, and they wouldn't know any better not to. You think he could get Lebron or Harden or Westbrook to do that? The young team excuse is stale. They are more coachable now than they will ever be again.

Have you played basketball before or are just winging it?

Jeffrey wrote:There are some attributes that you want to see from coaches:

1. Overall Strategy (offense & defense)
2. Rotations/Minutes
3. Babysitting (keep egos in check, locker room attitude)
4. In-game strategies (after timeouts, after halftime, after quarters)

Overall Strategy - I have yet to see a reasonable overall strategy and his quote from earlier this season was a bit concerning. Something in the tune of "not having a strategy and letting the kids do their thing" and then complained about the kids not running plays about a month ago. If you look at Atkinson or Budenholzer, you know their strategy. You look at Carlisle, you know his strategy. Popovich too.

Rotations/Minutes - I disagree with Frank's inconsistent minutes. At least give him the keys and lets see what he does before giving him the boot. Knox is doing the same stuff and we have yet to see him ride the pine for a long period of time. But overall, it's been okay.

Babysitting - team as a whole, likes Fizdale. NBA players as a whole likes Fizdale. So he can talk to players and locker room is positive. Problem with this is... clock is ticking when players will say... "What's your strategy, coach?".

In-game strategies - LOL lets work on overall strategy first.

Pretty much sums it up .

Are we seriously arguing that a coach who was hired to develop players, has players too green to develop?

Fizdale built an entire staff for developing young players but can't be bothered to coach the kids because they don't know the basics of the NBA? Holy crap that's a dumb argument.

NYKAL wrote:

drekwins wrote:

bleedblue3303 wrote:I'm confused why some people have Fiz hate.

He seems to be doing a great job of developing young talent.

Mitch, Dotson, Trier,Knox, even Mudiay
all seem to be improving.

He has started a culture where young guys play hard.
And enjoy playing here. Besides Kanter and KP there wasn't any drama here this year. I think it was a great rebuilding year.

AND MOST IMPORTANTLY. ALL THIS WHILE MAINTAINING THE TANK!

What more would you like to see him do? I don't think he can complicate the system all that much while guys are still learning how to play the game. Also I think it is a strong possibility that Frank may not be a part of the teams plans anymore. So pretty sure that is why he is not playing.

Just curious why people don't like him. I have been very happy with the job he has done.

3 Main Reasons (at least for me)

1) He chooses favorites irrationally and without justification
2) He preaches defense but doesn't hold anyone accountable to it. Worse, he doesn't reward the guys who do play good D (Mitch, Frank).
3) Many of the young guys have not progressed nearly enough from game 1 until now

Mitch is not ready 30 plus minutes a game and last night was the proof. No one should even be mentioning Frank since he's been MIA far too long to even be part of the "current" discussion.

So, the biggest critique I got from this entire thread was that he wasn't playing Mitch and Frank as much as some want. LMAO ya'll going bat **** crazy over a season without meaning. Hold players accountable...for what when most won't be back next season.

Fiz could sit on the bench and not engage with the team for the entire game and I wouldn't care. I'm seeing growth from everyone not named Frank so, he's doing good imo.

Current discussion? How is that relevant? Performance is evaluated over time. For Fiz, that means from September until now. We now have more data to formulate opinions and a greater perspective. Just because Frank was injured since January, we saw how much he was valued up until then. We have also seen how Trier, Mitch, Knox, Dotson have been used/developed. Now, please understand that development and minutes are not synonymous. If a young guy is playing selfish, not playing D, involving teammates, etc., he needs to be coached hard. You don't compromise on those characteristics. I don't agree with how Knox has been used or coached. I don't agree with how Frank was used... at all. At times, he was behind Burke, Mudiay and other scrubs who have no chance of being with the team long-term. I don't agree with how Dotson was used pre-trade. But, that's not egregious because he's playing now. I don't always agree how he coaches Trier either. I think he needs to be challenged by Fiz.. esp on the defensive end. He takes plays off a lot. He'll make the spectacular blocks but he doesn't show much toughness and isn't always committed (Mitch has called him out many times).

Besides the rookies, I don't understand his use of: Mudiay, THJr, Burke... all of these guys have obvious fatal flaws and Fiz doesn't confront it or challenge them... at least not with any results.

My main issue with Fiz is how he values flashy low-efficiency guys and doesn't hold anyone accountable. Some of these guys need to be coached hard and confronted when they show intensity/focus/heart issues (i.e. - Knox hoisting up 15-20 shots with 0blk, 0ast and 0stls, Trier giving up position on defense and then following it up with laziness htat leads to an And-1, Mudiay showing his thing one game and then looking like a scrub the next, Frank not shooting the ball or calling his own number, Burke/THJr gunning without a second thought... It's the coaches responsibility to try and get guys to expand their games. Who has expanded their game this season and improved a weakness? Mitch has shown more because of more minutes.

Every player is the same exact player. No one is playing defense that previously couldn't. No one is shooting better that previously couldn't shoot. No one is now distributing who couldn't distribute. They're all the same exact players... that's a damn shame for young guys who can add more to their games.

CharlesOakley wrote:Are we seriously arguing that a coach who was hired to develop players, has players too green to develop?

Fizdale built an entire staff for developing young players but can't be bothered to coach the kids because they don't know the basics of the NBA? Holy crap that's a dumb argument.

I had to read the post a couple of times since it seemed so unbelievable. Because of the roster it is not possible for him to coach the team? Not possible to win, sure, but now he can't even coach at all because of it?

One of the weakest things I ever read.


I am not all anti-Fiz, his getting along with all of these players around the league MIGHT help us recruit top players. If it doesn't I don't see a reason he should last after next season unless we show some improvement from the young players.

drekwins wrote:

NYKAL wrote:

drekwins wrote:
3 Main Reasons (at least for me)

1) He chooses favorites irrationally and without justification
2) He preaches defense but doesn't hold anyone accountable to it. Worse, he doesn't reward the guys who do play good D (Mitch, Frank).
3) Many of the young guys have not progressed nearly enough from game 1 until now

Mitch is not ready 30 plus minutes a game and last night was the proof. No one should even be mentioning Frank since he's been MIA far too long to even be part of the "current" discussion.

So, the biggest critique I got from this entire thread was that he wasn't playing Mitch and Frank as much as some want. LMAO ya'll going bat **** crazy over a season without meaning. Hold players accountable...for what when most won't be back next season.

Fiz could sit on the bench and not engage with the team for the entire game and I wouldn't care. I'm seeing growth from everyone not named Frank so, he's doing good imo.

Current discussion? How is that relevant? Performance is evaluated over time. For Fiz, that means from September until now. We now have more data to formulate opinions and a greater perspective. Just because Frank was injured since January, we saw how much he was valued up until then. We have also seen how Trier, Mitch, Knox, Dotson have been used/developed. Now, please understand that development and minutes are not synonymous. If a young guy is playing selfish, not playing D, involving teammates, etc., he needs to be coached hard. You don't compromise on those characteristics. I don't agree with how Knox has been used or coached. I don't agree with how Frank was used... at all. At times, he was behind Burke, Mudiay and other scrubs who have no chance of being with the team long-term. I don't agree with how Dotson was used pre-trade. But, that's not egregious because he's playing now. I don't always agree how he coaches Trier either. I think he needs to be challenged by Fiz.. esp on the defensive end. He takes plays off a lot. He'll make the spectacular blocks but he doesn't show much toughness and isn't always committed (Mitch has called him out many times).

Besides the rookies, I don't understand his use of: Mudiay, THJr, Burke... all of these guys have obvious fatal flaws and Fiz doesn't confront it or challenge them... at least not with any results.

My main issue with Fiz is how he values flashy low-efficiency guys and doesn't hold anyone accountable. Some of these guys need to be coached hard and confronted when they show intensity/focus/heart issues (i.e. - Knox hoisting up 15-20 shots with 0blk, 0ast and 0stls, Trier giving up position on defense and then following it up with laziness htat leads to an And-1, Mudiay showing his thing one game and then looking like a scrub the next, Frank not shooting the ball or calling his own number, Burke/THJr gunning without a second thought... It's the coaches responsibility to try and get guys to expand their games. Who has expanded their game this season and improved a weakness? Mitch has shown more because of more minutes.

Every player is the same exact player. No one is playing defense that previously couldn't. No one is shooting better that previously couldn't shoot. No one is now distributing who couldn't distribute. They're all the same exact players... that's a damn shame for young guys who can add more to their games.

honest answer...I didn't read all of that.

He's a good guy who has a good personality but I don't know what his principles are except to be an adherent to 'New Basketball' which seems to mean less passing and D.

If he did that well, I'd still give him credit. The bottom line is that the team is not that talented, of course, and he has gotten some good individual performances. But they're not cohesive at all, and he seems more intent on just sort of standing by than starting to teach and instill.

Even if the team is bad, you can't miss an opportunity to start demanding certain things or showing what your identity will be as a coach. There's no Soon I'll actually start coaching.

whocares1 wrote:

Sark wrote:A young team is a lot more malleable than an older team. He could have them cutting on every single play, and they wouldn't know any better not to. You think he could get Lebron or Harden or Westbrook to do that? The young team excuse is stale. They are more coachable now than they will ever be again.

Have you played basketball before or are just winging it?

That wasn't meant to be taken literally.

We all want a change in culture. Most of us who remember the 90s and earlier want a return to the defense-first and tough-nosed brand of basketball we used to be known for. I was hoping for a coach who would never accept lack of effort on the defensive end. This would have been the perfect season to make these sort of changes.

I'd like a coach who would bench players for not giving effort. Instead we have a coach who benches players for not chucking.

CharlesOakley wrote:We all want a change in culture. Most of us who remember the 90s and earlier want a return to the defense-first and tough-nosed brand of basketball we used to be known for. I was hoping for a coach who would never accept lack of effort on the defensive end. This would have been the perfect season to make these sort of changes.

I'd like a coach who would bench players for not giving effort. Instead we have a coach who benches players for not chucking.

He didn’t bench Frank for not chucking. He blamed him for not shooting when’s he’s open.

Secondly, it’s not only about defensive effort. If he benched the players that made defensive mistakes you’d have a Chicago Bulls situation. The issue is that the Knicks have a roster filled with players that are bad defensively. There are only a couple of impactful defensive players on this team. Add defensive talent, and you’ll see Fiz “figure it out”.

CharlesOakley wrote:We all want a change in culture. Most of us who remember the 90s and earlier want a return to the defense-first and tough-nosed brand of basketball we used to be known for. I was hoping for a coach who would never accept lack of effort on the defensive end. This would have been the perfect season to make these sort of changes.

I'd like a coach who would bench players for not giving effort. Instead we have a coach who benches players for not chucking.

Especially with a kid like Knox, you need to drill it in his head from day one if you don't give effort, you don't play

You need to build good habits early in guys' careers, but by allowing everyone to chuck and do whatever, he's reinforcing bad habits and just making them that much harder to break when we're trying to be good

I'm not pro-tank, but I'm also not mad we're not winning. Record doesn't matter to me this year, never has. I just thought Fiz was gonna follow through with what he promised in the offseason, but he looks like just another guy who says all the right things but doesn't follow through

whocares1 wrote:

CharlesOakley wrote:We all want a change in culture. Most of us who remember the 90s and earlier want a return to the defense-first and tough-nosed brand of basketball we used to be known for. I was hoping for a coach who would never accept lack of effort on the defensive end. This would have been the perfect season to make these sort of changes.

I'd like a coach who would bench players for not giving effort. Instead we have a coach who benches players for not chucking.

He didn’t bench Frank for not chucking. He blamed him for not shooting when’s he’s open.

Secondly, it’s not only about defensive effort. If he benched the players that made defensive mistakes you’d have a Chicago Bulls situation. The issue is that the Knicks have a roster filled with players that are bad defensively. There are only a couple of impactful defensive players on this team. Add defensive talent, and you’ll see Fiz “figure it out”.

Your moving the goal post.

It can be about effort only. As an example, I've never had a problem with Burke because he usually gave effort on defense, even though he didn't have the talent to be good on that side of the ball. If you want to build a good defense you have to start with effort. It's also part of building a cultural identity.

Please explain how benching Frank for not shooting makes sense but benching Knox for never trying on defense doesn't.

The better question is "Why does Fiz hate Frank?"

CharlesOakley wrote:

whocares1 wrote:

CharlesOakley wrote:We all want a change in culture. Most of us who remember the 90s and earlier want a return to the defense-first and tough-nosed brand of basketball we used to be known for. I was hoping for a coach who would never accept lack of effort on the defensive end. This would have been the perfect season to make these sort of changes.

I'd like a coach who would bench players for not giving effort. Instead we have a coach who benches players for not chucking.

He didn’t bench Frank for not chucking. He blamed him for not shooting when’s he’s open.

Secondly, it’s not only about defensive effort. If he benched the players that made defensive mistakes you’d have a Chicago Bulls situation. The issue is that the Knicks have a roster filled with players that are bad defensively. There are only a couple of impactful defensive players on this team. Add defensive talent, and you’ll see Fiz “figure it out”.

Your moving the goal post.

It can be about effort only. As an example, I've never had a problem with Burke because he usually gave effort on defense, even though he didn't have the talent to be good on that side of the ball. If you want to build a good defense you have to start with effort. It's also part of building a cultural identity.

Please explain how benching Frank for not shooting makes sense but benching Knox for never trying on defense doesn't.

Because Knox does try. He just has stone feet. And no a good defense isn’t started with effort, a good defense is started with good defensive players. It’s not moving the goal posts when it’s the truth.

HarthorneWingo wrote:The better question is "Why does Fiz hate Frank?"

Damn I just remembered Frank’s mom flied out to see him play on Christmas and Frank didn’t even play a second. Total savage.

K-DOT wrote:

CharlesOakley wrote:We all want a change in culture. Most of us who remember the 90s and earlier want a return to the defense-first and tough-nosed brand of basketball we used to be known for. I was hoping for a coach who would never accept lack of effort on the defensive end. This would have been the perfect season to make these sort of changes.

I'd like a coach who would bench players for not giving effort. Instead we have a coach who benches players for not chucking.

Especially with a kid like Knox, you need to drill it in his head from day one if you don't give effort, you don't play

You need to build good habits early in guys' careers, but by allowing everyone to chuck and do whatever, he's reinforcing bad habits and just making them that much harder to break when we're trying to be good

I'm not pro-tank, but I'm also not mad we're not winning. Record doesn't matter to me this year, never has. I just thought Fiz was gonna follow through with what he promised in the offseason, but he looks like just another guy who says all the right things but doesn't follow through

He just went through a stretch where Fiz was benching him in the 4th quarter because of his defense.

Kampuchea wrote:

Richard4444 wrote:

Kampuchea wrote:
So he can't coach because of the roster?

Even if the players suck, defense is driven a bunch by effort and I have seen a consistent lack of effort. Lack of effort is something the coach definitely needs to be held accountable for, at least partially.

It's not all bad, he at least plays the younger players which coaches like Horny did not want to do.

There is a good chance our roster sucks again next year, so he also can't really coach again next year as well?

The points are:

1) Our rookies and sophomores players dont have enough experience, developed individuals skills set, developed physical tools to properly execute team play. They are too green. You have to keep explaining basic things. You have to try to keep things too simple.

2) Fomer (?) busts players dont have a great skill set, will problably leave the team and they are more interested in individuals stats than team development.

3) Veteran players will not stay in team and dont have physical conditional or skill set to make a great difference.

How can you coach a team that half of the roster has yet to learn the Basic of NBA and the other half will leave the team and not interested in team play? And all you gonna reach will not matter at all because you have to star over next season with a totally new roster and the main focus of the team will switch to Durant, Irving and AD/Zion/Beal.

No issue with the comments you made 1, 2 or 3. Nobody will argue the players are not that good or experienced.

The red is where we will not agree. You are saying "how can you coach" as if it is not possible but I am going to completely disagree with you there. I actually think younger players new to the NBA are the most coachable as they have so much to learn and be taught, including coaching them the basics!

Saying he can't coach because of the roster and that even if he could "reach" it doesn't matter......sorry I think those are both completely wrong.

He can't win with this roster? That is a given. He can't "coach" because of the roster? WRONG

I think the main goal to a coach is to improve team play, yo make plays to give players clear shots, to make the team to defend as an unit, to make the right calls after time outs and to make the right substitutions and lineups. In all that Knicks stinks... But I dont think that is the coach fall. The roster is just bad.

Logically, coach can also improve individual performance (especially from the rookies). But I think that this job is more of the coachs assistents. Anyway, I dont think the job is bad. Dotson and Mud have improved. It is hard to evaluate the influence of the coach in Mitch and Knox performance because they have started now. Frank, Mario and others continue to desapointed and be inconsisted. Maybe they are just bad players.