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K-DOT wrote:

GONYK wrote:

j4remi wrote:
The crazy part being they'll both be 21 for the majority of this season and I'd bet on that holding true assuming they stay healthy.

Play Frank wherever you want on offense, but we have a lot better chance of winning if he's sharing minutes with Mitch for the majority of the game while guarding the 1.

Fun stats for the day

Our Drtg this year was 112.9, tied for 3rd worst in the league

The 2 man lineup of Frank and Mitch had a Drtg of 107.3, which would have put us at 8th

The 3 man lineup of Frank, Dot, and Mitch had a Drtg of 98.8. The team with the best Drtg in the league last year? The Bucks, at 104.9

And just because I want to keep talking about it, that stretch where we started Frank, Dot, Tim, Vonleh, and Mitch, those 5 had a Drtg of 100.5 over those 8 games, and an Ortg of 107.7 (higher than our season average of 104). So over 8 games we were a bottom 10 offense, but the best defense in the league by far, and yet because of one bad quarter (the Magic game), Fiz yanked that lineup and never played it again

And the reason he gave was because they weren't winning enough

DaT WaVeY RiCaN wrote:Whens next France game?

15th August:

GONYK wrote:

K-DOT wrote:

GONYK wrote:
Play Frank wherever you want on offense, but we have a lot better chance of winning if he's sharing minutes with Mitch for the majority of the game while guarding the 1.

Fun stats for the day

Our Drtg this year was 112.9, tied for 3rd worst in the league

The 2 man lineup of Frank and Mitch had a Drtg of 107.3, which would have put us at 8th

The 3 man lineup of Frank, Dot, and Mitch had a Drtg of 98.8. The team with the best Drtg in the league last year? The Bucks, at 104.9

And just because I want to keep talking about it, that stretch where we started Frank, Dot, Tim, Vonleh, and Mitch, those 5 had a Drtg of 100.5 over those 8 games, and an Ortg of 107.7 (higher than our season average of 104). So over 8 games we were a bottom 10 offense, but the best defense in the league by far, and yet because of one bad quarter (the Magic game), Fiz yanked that lineup and never played it again

And the reason he gave was because they weren't winning enough

Which is funny, cause I did some research

Only one other starting lineup managed to win more than 2 games, and it went 4-7, which is only very slightly worse than the 3-5 the defensive lineup went

But this is why I say Fiz is full of sh*t when he says he's an analytics guy. Like, even if you think that lineup isn't viable for a full season (which is probably true), there's no reason not to at least play them for a few minutes in some games later on in the season to see if they're actually good or not

He seems like the type that ignores analytics that disagree with what his preconceived notions are. Which will be a bad thing if we try and win games under him.

K-DOT wrote:

GONYK wrote:

j4remi wrote:
The crazy part being they'll both be 21 for the majority of this season and I'd bet on that holding true assuming they stay healthy.

Play Frank wherever you want on offense, but we have a lot better chance of winning if he's sharing minutes with Mitch for the majority of the game while guarding the 1.

Fun stats for the day

Our Drtg this year was 112.9, tied for 3rd worst in the league

The 2 man lineup of Frank and Mitch had a Drtg of 107.3, which would have put us at 8th

The 3 man lineup of Frank, Dot, and Mitch had a Drtg of 98.8. The team with the best Drtg in the league last year? The Bucks, at 104.9

And just because I want to keep talking about it, that stretch where we started Frank, Dot, Tim, Vonleh, and Mitch, those 5 had a Drtg of 100.5 over those 8 games, and an Ortg of 107.7 (higher than our season average of 104). So over 8 games we were a bottom 10 offense, but the best defense in the league by far, and yet because of one bad quarter (the Magic game), Fiz yanked that lineup and never played it again

Just bc I want to keep talking about it ... I love that.

K-DOT wrote:

GONYK wrote:

K-DOT wrote:Fun stats for the day

Our Drtg this year was 112.9, tied for 3rd worst in the league

The 2 man lineup of Frank and Mitch had a Drtg of 107.3, which would have put us at 8th

The 3 man lineup of Frank, Dot, and Mitch had a Drtg of 98.8. The team with the best Drtg in the league last year? The Bucks, at 104.9

And just because I want to keep talking about it, that stretch where we started Frank, Dot, Tim, Vonleh, and Mitch, those 5 had a Drtg of 100.5 over those 8 games, and an Ortg of 107.7 (higher than our season average of 104). So over 8 games we were a bottom 10 offense, but the best defense in the league by far, and yet because of one bad quarter (the Magic game), Fiz yanked that lineup and never played it again

And the reason he gave was because they weren't winning enough

Which is funny, cause I did some research

Only one other starting lineup managed to win more than 2 games, and it went 4-7, which is only very slightly worse than the 3-5 the defensive lineup went

But this is why I say Fiz is full of sh*t when he says he's an analytics guy. Like, even if you think that lineup isn't viable for a full season (which is probably true), there's no reason not to at least play them for a few minutes in some games later on in the season to see if they're actually good or not

He seems like the type that ignores analytics that disagree with what his preconceived notions are. Which will be a bad thing if we try and win games under him.

They said they hired for "analytics, commitment to defense, communication and development".

I'm not so sure about points 1 and 2 or even 4.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/knicks-coaching-search-two-modern-hires-who-fit-what-the-front-office-claims-to-want/

K-DOT wrote:

GONYK wrote:

K-DOT wrote:Fun stats for the day

Our Drtg this year was 112.9, tied for 3rd worst in the league

The 2 man lineup of Frank and Mitch had a Drtg of 107.3, which would have put us at 8th

The 3 man lineup of Frank, Dot, and Mitch had a Drtg of 98.8. The team with the best Drtg in the league last year? The Bucks, at 104.9

And just because I want to keep talking about it, that stretch where we started Frank, Dot, Tim, Vonleh, and Mitch, those 5 had a Drtg of 100.5 over those 8 games, and an Ortg of 107.7 (higher than our season average of 104). So over 8 games we were a bottom 10 offense, but the best defense in the league by far, and yet because of one bad quarter (the Magic game), Fiz yanked that lineup and never played it again

And the reason he gave was because they weren't winning enough

Which is funny, cause I did some research

Only one other starting lineup managed to win more than 2 games, and it went 4-7, which is only very slightly worse than the 3-5 the defensive lineup went

But this is why I say Fiz is full of sh*t when he says he's an analytics guy. Like, even if you think that lineup isn't viable for a full season (which is probably true), there's no reason not to at least play them for a few minutes in some games later on in the season to see if they're actually good or not

He seems like the type that ignores analytics that disagree with what his preconceived notions are. Which will be a bad thing if we try and win games under him.

This is why I hate Fizz. Before the season he talked about how Knicks = defense and he was going to restore that NYC toughness. IMO we had the players to be a top 10 defense in the league. Emphasizing defense when you have a lack of talent is basic, smart coaching. Our best defensive lineups would have still have been bad enough offensively to not affect the tank.

We still have the talent to be a top 10 defense and we still won't see those lineups. It's going to be iso ball again this year.

Why you guys so pressed about a tanking season?

CharlesOakley wrote:

K-DOT wrote:

GONYK wrote:
And the reason he gave was because they weren't winning enough

Which is funny, cause I did some research

Only one other starting lineup managed to win more than 2 games, and it went 4-7, which is only very slightly worse than the 3-5 the defensive lineup went

But this is why I say Fiz is full of sh*t when he says he's an analytics guy. Like, even if you think that lineup isn't viable for a full season (which is probably true), there's no reason not to at least play them for a few minutes in some games later on in the season to see if they're actually good or not

He seems like the type that ignores analytics that disagree with what his preconceived notions are. Which will be a bad thing if we try and win games under him.

This is why I hate Fizz. Before the season he talked about how Knicks = defense and he was going to restore that NYC toughness. IMO we had the players to be a top 10 defense in the league. Emphasizing defense when you have a lack of talent is basic, smart coaching. Our best defensive lineups would have still have been bad enough offensively to not affect the tank.

We still have the talent to be a top 10 defense and we still won't see those lineups. It's going to be iso ball again this year.

Fiz was straight up FOS last year.

Odds are he will be this non-tank year too as well but he has a little leeway to prove us wrong

To put it another way, Frank isn't the only young vet who has to prove something this year. Fiz has to start showing something too.

thebuzzardman wrote:To put it another way, Frank isn't the only young vet who has to prove something this year. Fiz has to start showing something too.

People like to simplify it as people have problems with Fiz just because of how he handled Frank, but for me, the bigger issue is how he handled Knox and why I'm concerned about how he'll handle RJ

With Knox, you have a guy who likes to call his own number, doesn't really play team ball, and doesn't play defense (you could make a statistical case for him being the worst defensive player in the league last year). So, what you should do for that is, if he starts getting trigger happy (and isn't making them), or if he decides he doesn't want to play defense, you yank him. That's accountability. Cause if you don't, you reinforce those bad habits in him, he's not gonna feel like he has to play defense or pass, which will stunt his growth. Also, with the culture offensively we had last year, guys didn't want to pass, cause they knew the ball wasn't coming back to them if they did. Which is also bad for a young player like Knox.

With Frank, it was the opposite. He needs the freedom to not be worried about making mistakes, which is more of what we're seeing from him in FIBA. When he's not worried, he plays more aggressively, and that makes him better. Here, he's always looking over his shoulder to see if Fiz is gonna pull him for missing a shot, just like with Hornacek.

And you can apply a lot of this to RJ. He needs a tight leash, to be held accountable on defense, and to play within a team offense, which Fiz didn't promote last year because "tank," and I'm pretty sure he isn't gonna promote it this year. It'll be more of the same every man for himself on offense, and you don't have to play defense if you don't feel like it. Which, to be fair, isn't a death sentence for RJ, certainly young players have developed under worse coaches, it's not gonna help him. We may end up turning him into Mudiay part 2, or he may be good enough to grow the right way. I think any growth we see out of the kids will be in spite of, not because of Fiz.

And like, here's my thing about how we're handling rebuilding.

If we're just throwing guys out there to do whatever, that's how you end up as a team like the Suns, who have gotten top pick after top pick after top pick, and never really go anywhere with them, always chasing the bird in the bush. When you instill a culture from day one and commit to developing the players you do have, that's how you get the Nets.

Like, say we've been rebuilding since 2015, when we drafted KP. In that time, the Nets made the playoffs, bottomed out without having their own picks, got back to the playoffs with a completely new roster full of young players they had developed, and then landed Kyrie and KD in free agency. And in that time, they never selected a player higher than 20th, yet they rebuilt faster than us, when we've had two top 10 picks and two top 4 picks.

K-DOT wrote:

thebuzzardman wrote:To put it another way, Frank isn't the only young vet who has to prove something this year. Fiz has to start showing something too.

People like to simplify it as people have problems with Fiz just because of how he handled Frank, but for me, the bigger issue is how he handled Knox and why I'm concerned about how he'll handle RJ

With Knox, you have a guy who likes to call his own number, doesn't really play team ball, and doesn't play defense (you could make a statistical case for him being the worst defensive player in the league last year). So, what you should do for that is, if he starts getting trigger happy (and isn't making them), or if he decides he doesn't want to play defense, you yank him. That's accountability. Cause if you don't, you reinforce those bad habits in him, he's not gonna feel like he has to play defense or pass, which will stunt his growth. Also, with the culture offensively we had last year, guys didn't want to pass, cause they knew the ball wasn't coming back to them if they did. Which is also bad for a young player like Knox.

With Frank, it was the opposite. He needs the freedom to not be worried about making mistakes, which is more of what we're seeing from him in FIBA. When he's not worried, he plays more aggressively, and that makes him better. Here, he's always looking over his shoulder to see if Fiz is gonna pull him for missing a shot, just like with Hornacek.

And you can apply a lot of this to RJ. He needs a tight leash, to be held accountable on defense, and to play within a team offense, which Fiz didn't promote last year because "tank," and I'm pretty sure he isn't gonna promote it this year. It'll be more of the same every man for himself on offense, and you don't have to play defense if you don't feel like it. Which, to be fair, isn't a death sentence for RJ, certainly young players have developed under worse coaches, it's not gonna help him. We may end up turning him into Mudiay part 2, or he may be good enough to grow the right way. I think any growth we see out of the kids will be in spite of, not because of Fiz.

Yup. Yes, I'm not wild about how "he" handled Frank. ("he" as my assumption is he gets certain orders, even about playing time, from above). And too much time for Mudiay, who was no guarantee to stay, and honestly, they didn't ultimately want, as was clear from this off season's FA signings. Mudiay was there IF they wanted him.

It's more about Knox's long leash (which may have been a good idea) and his say one thing, do another, regarding defensive intensity. And while the players could have been better individually about cutting and moving and executing, Fiz let a LOT of 1:1 play go on, consequence free.

I'll assume it was part of a tank plan. Not unlike this offseason was a wait and see moment for me with the front office - would they stay the course with cap flexibility, would they get some picks (yes, no), this season I'm on "Fiz Watch" to see if he demands defensive intensity and ball movement.

For God's sake, if Bullock was healthy, the Knicks could run THREE 5 man lineups (obviously I know 15 guys don't dress)

For illustration's sake, not trying to predict the lineups:

DSJr
RJ
Morris
Randle
Mitch

Payton
Trier
Ellington
Knox
Portis


Frank
Dotson
Bullock
Iggy
Gibson

Obviously I sort of Ellington in at 3 and Knox at 4 in the 2nd lineup and also put Portis at C, which might not be his best spot.

The random 3rd unit I made pretty nice for defense, other than Iggy probably too small for some PF's.


Point is, if someone isn't bringing it on defense or is playing selfishly, there are 2 and sometimes 3 other options to play instead of that guy.

No excuses for Fiz.

K-DOT wrote:And like, here's my thing about how we're handling rebuilding.

If we're just throwing guys out there to do whatever, that's how you end up as a team like the Suns, who have gotten top pick after top pick after top pick, and never really go anywhere with them, always chasing the bird in the bush. When you instill a culture from day one and commit to developing the players you do have, that's how you get the Nets.

Like, say we've been rebuilding since 2015, when we drafted KP. In that time, the Nets made the playoffs, bottomed out without having their own picks, got back to the playoffs with a completely new roster full of young players they had developed, and then landed Kyrie and KD in free agency. And in that time, they never selected a player higher than 20th, yet they rebuilt faster than us, when we've had two top 10 picks and two top 4 picks.

Atkinson has been their coach since 2016 and in 2016-2017 and 2017-2018, the Nets didn't make the playoffs.

Why do people demand to tank, but than complain about not running plays and bad rotations?

We need to stop overrating the Nets rebuild

The reason why they were able to rebuild quickly is because the Lakers were so iincompetent that they had to trade DLO to get rid of that Mozgov contract. Thats luck right there. With no DLo they are no making offs.

Nets helped us dodge a bullet. We should give them a standing ovation.

malik959 wrote:Why do people demand to tank, but than complain about not running plays and bad rotations?

Jesus f*cking Christ on a cheesecake

Because we didn't want a tank, we wanted development. Those are different things. And Fiz isn't handling the development part particularly well, that's why we're complaining. Which you would have known had you actually read my post

I'm tired of explaining this every f*cking time it comes up

malik959 wrote:Why do people demand to tank, but than complain about not running plays and bad rotations?

You need to demand effort from players if you are trying to change the culture. I didn't want us winning last season, but I think we could have established a defensive identity rather than focusing on Mudiay, THJr., Knox, DSJr. and Trier all chucking.

In the period of our most recent drafts we've had wo different front offices with two different visions. Phil wanted a hybrid rebuild, with some youth, but also known established players to compete with. Melo D- Rose and Noah were on the same team establishes this.

KP was a good pick by Phil, Frank not so much, but I wouldnt close the book just yet. Phil pretty much whiffed on all his other selections whether 2nd rounder, undrafted, whatever. Overall he was subpar as a talent evaluator. Phil also forced a system on the team as well, and that didn't work out either.

Comparatively this regime has done decent with their building primarily drafting. Knox still has opportunity and RJ certainly has opportunity. Our 2nd round picks have been good as well as undrafted guys g-leaguers etc. We dont have high end talent yet, but there's no reason to think not a single one wouldnt develop into that, unless two years is all they should be given.

Imo, it makes no sense to compare what the Knicks are doing to other teams actions. We're clearly rebuilding and have all tools available. This shouldnt be rushed, but rather carefully executed no matter how long it takes.

Thugger HBC wrote:
Imo, it makes no sense to compare what the Knicks are doing to other teams actions. We're clearly rebuilding and have all tools available. This shouldnt be rushed, but rather carefully executed no matter how long it takes.

This is the thing though

Would you rather we A: establish a culture from day one, hold guys accountable for not playing defense, and instill an offensive system based on passing the ball

Or B: just throw guys out there and let them do whatever for 48 minutes a game because we're not gonna be good anyways.

My point in using the Nets is to show that teams that do the first option have a higher chance of successfully pulling off a rebuild than teams that do the second option, which is what we're doing

Did anyone follow Frank's play in those friendly games?