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Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Ortega vs Zombie and Lomachenko vs Lopez next

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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Ortega vs Zombie and Lomachenko vs Lopez next 

Post#1221 » by Cookies4Life » Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:49 pm

Great win for Lopez, I was shocked on Lomachenko's lack of activity for the first 6 rounds. It wasn't like Lopez was overwhelming him with his punches, it was mainly singular or 2 punch combos with a focus to the body while Loma just remained inactive in the front 6.

He dug himself too big of a hole but he did quite well for himself in the back 6 of the fight. I thought it was even leading into the 12th round and Lopez showed his grit and won the final round decisively. I had it 115-113 Lopez.

Those scorecards were egregious especially Julie Lederman (harold Lederman's daughter) 119-109 scorecard. To think Lomachenko won only 1 round is just ridiculous. Her credentials as a judge have to be seriously in question now, similar to CJ Ross' scorecard in 2013 between Canelo and FLoyd Mayweather.

Speaking of Floyd Mayweather, I've read some interesting posts above where he's called "just a counterpuncher." That tells me all I need to know about your lack of boxing knowledge and how you probably started watching him around 2007 when he fought Oscar on PPV (with 24/7 doing their first documentary.) That was his 5th weight class after being a professional for over 11 years.

Just a counterpuncher? LOL he went 27-0 with 20 knockouts at Super featherweight where he's clearly the GOAT at the 130 division. He whitewashed a seasoned Genaro Hernandez in 1998 after being a pro for only 2 years to win his first title, followed that fight with an impressive performance against Angel Manfredy where he hit him with 22 (TWENTY TWO) punches that went unanswered in the 2nd round when the fight was stopped.

3 years later at the tail end of his SFW reign, he took on Diego Corrales- a widely regarded knockout artist who was 32-0 and a top 5 P4P fighter. FLoyd was a 3-1 underdog in that match and ended up dropping Diego 5 times en route to an 11th round stoppage.

4 years after that he went into Gatti's backyard in Atlantic City and gave him one of the worst one sided beatings in a title fight I've ever seen.

he had to change his style as he got older and was clearly outside of his athletic prime- around the time he made his foray to his 4th weight class at 147 lbs. That's because he was taking on guys who were about 15-20 pounds heavier than him on fight night- something he dealt with for the last 7-8 years of his career and he had a myriad of hand injuries sustained from earlier on in his career. He decided to fight like that to ensure he could stay at the top of the mantle P4P.

The moment Roy's athleticism waned was the moment he was getting knocked out left and right (Tarver, Glen Johnson and many others.) The moment Floyd's athleticism waned, he changed up his style and remained the most dominant force in boxing for another decade. We're talking about a guy who was widely regarded as a top P4P fighter from 1998-2015. no one in the history of the sport had that type of elite level longevity. 50-0 with approximately 20% of those fights against HOF fighters or soon to be HOF fighters.

Just a counterpuncher? Yea, in the famous words of Roger Mayweather, you DKSAB. You can catch a lot of his fights on youtube and educate yourself a little more. before he was Money Mayweather, he was known as Pretty Boy Floyd. Watch PBF sometime and learn a thing or two about boxing.
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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Ortega vs Zombie and Lomachenko vs Lopez next 

Post#1222 » by CjayC » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:32 pm

^
Yeah you can say what you want about Mayweather, but I've never seen him willingly concede rounds like Loma did yesterday. He's had times where he's had some trouble figuring guys out early on, but he would make them work for it.
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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Ortega vs Zombie and Lomachenko vs Lopez next 

Post#1223 » by HarthorneWingo » Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:24 am

I don't think Volkanovski beats Ortega 2.0. Can't wait for the eventual rematch against Max.
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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Ortega vs Zombie and Lomachenko vs Lopez next 

Post#1224 » by j4remi » Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:22 pm

The UFC

I'm having a hard time getting a read on Ortega 2.0 because KZ is such a different fighter from the next two guys in the division, Max and Volk. Zombie is a forward moving, somewhat plodding fighter that uses pressure to create opening. Volk and Max are movement fighters that use distance and volume to confuse a striker. So it's hard to tell if T-City can use the diversity of attacks he did against an opponent who is less stationary and more active in using deception.

That said..WOW! What an improvement regardless. Ortega's patience was the most obvious trait. He was happy to hold back and let his power force KZ to close distance. He used leg kicks, a massively improved jab, oblique kicks, front kicks to the body and single leg takedown attempts to open up combinations. That meant Zombie could never get comfortable.

Watching the fight back, Ortega follows most single leg attempts with stiff 1's and 2's that Zombie almost never blocks because his guard is lowered. The oblique and front kicks don't even make an appearance until the third round which probably really confused things for KZ. The power has always been there but the timing was filthy too. That spinning back elbow in the second is beautiful, moving backwards and slipping a strike into the pivot...just lovely.

That said; the single leg level changes were timed to Zombie trying to provoke brawls. Volk and Max will likely be much tougher to get into the hips on. The kicks will be really useful against Volkanovski who was completely thrown by Max's ability to match him though. The power could break Holloway's combination punching like other power hitters have been able to when they time things right. On the ground, Ortega is head and shoulders above everybody and that takes away Volk's abililty to use level changes to create discomfort.

Basically what I'm saying is...Ortega has a path to victory against the cream of the crop now and it's built off of an incredible amount of growth in a pretty short span of time.

Sidenote: Rare that I disagree with Weasel but I was right on the Andrade fight, I'll take that one up :lol:

The Boxing:

As far as the Lomachenko performance goes...bummer. It looked like a guy who hadn't fought for over a year and took longer than normal to find his timing. Even when Loma had the timing down, he was in for some scrappy rounds too. I still edged him by a round taking one early round and then running off 6-11. But I wasn't upset at the decision. Lopez earned that. I didn't like the score cards though and thought the analysis kinda sucked. They kept gassing Teofimo's counter uppercut when it whiffed upstairs; it was good to stop Lomachenko from continuing some combinations but rarely landed. What DID seem to halt Loma and hurt him was when Lopez fired that uppercut to the body. He was lifting Loma off the ground with some of the best placed ones.

I'd like to see a rematch because of how big the gap was from rounds 1-4 and then from 5-11. I'd be curious to see if Loma was gunshy early because Lopez was hitting so hard that it forced him to wait back a while...or was it just rust and timing issues. Loma's getting up there in age though and it does really look like he's hit the point where he can't handle the power of the bigger guys he's fighting now.

Now we head into fight week for Gaethje vs Khabib...HYPE!!!
PG - Morris/G Riller/
SG - Booker/D Bane/Z.Smith
SF - Culver/Bonga/S Brown
PF - Spellman/W. Chandler/Metu
C - Gobert/Gafford/Hartenstein

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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Ortega vs Zombie and Lomachenko vs Lopez next 

Post#1225 » by HarthorneWingo » Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:53 pm

j4remi wrote:The UFC

I'm having a hard time getting a read on Ortega 2.0 because KZ is such a different fighter from the next two guys in the division, Max and Volk. Zombie is a forward moving, somewhat plodding fighter that uses pressure to create opening. Volk and Max are movement fighters that use distance and volume to confuse a striker. So it's hard to tell if T-City can use the diversity of attacks he did against an opponent who is less stationary and more active in using deception.

That said..WOW! What an improvement regardless. Ortega's patience was the most obvious trait. He was happy to hold back and let his power force KZ to close distance. He used leg kicks, a massively improved jab, oblique kicks, front kicks to the body and single leg takedown attempts to open up combinations. That meant Zombie could never get comfortable.

Watching the fight back, Ortega follows most single leg attempts with stiff 1's and 2's that Zombie almost never blocks because his guard is lowered. The oblique and front kicks don't even make an appearance until the third round which probably really confused things for KZ. The power has always been there but the timing was filthy too. That spinning back elbow in the second is beautiful, moving backwards and slipping a strike into the pivot...just lovely.

That said; the single leg level changes were timed to Zombie trying to provoke brawls. Volk and Max will likely be much tougher to get into the hips on. The kicks will be really useful against Volkanovski who was completely thrown by Max's ability to match him though. The power could break Holloway's combination punching like other power hitters have been able to when they time things right. On the ground, Ortega is head and shoulders above everybody and that takes away Volk's abililty to use level changes to create discomfort.

Basically what I'm saying is...Ortega has a path to victory against the cream of the crop now and it's built off of an incredible amount of growth in a pretty short span of time.

Sidenote: Rare that I disagree with Weasel but I was right on the Andrade fight, I'll take that one up :lol:

Now we head into fight week for Gaethje vs Khabib...HYPE!!!


Good call on Andrade. Hope you were able to "capitalize" off it. :D

Great breakdown of Ortega v KZ fight and the issues facing Brian in possible upcoming fights against Volko and Max. It looks like he's a much better position now to take them on than before and they will now have some things to think about too when then fight Ortega 2.0. Really looking forward to see it play out.

Gaethje v Khabib.

Can Justin stay off the cage with movement, leg kicks and technical striking?

Will Khabib wear out Gaethje? Can he keep Gaethje on the ground once he gets the takedown?
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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Ortega vs Zombie and Lomachenko vs Lopez next 

Post#1226 » by j4remi » Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:07 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
Good call on Andrade. Hope you were able to "capitalize" off it. :D

Great breakdown of Ortega v KZ fight and the issues facing Brian in possible upcoming fights against Volko and Max. It looks like he's a much better position now to take them on than before and they will now have some things to think about too when then fight Ortega 2.0. Really looking forward to see it play out.

Gaethje v Khabib.

Can Justin stay off the cage with movement, leg kicks and technical striking?

Will Khabib wear out Gaethje? Can he keep Gaethje on the ground once he gets the takedown?


Not only did I capitalize, but I threw a last minute frustration bet on First Round KO after Gamrot let me down :lol: ...suffice to say, I can make a bunch of reckless bets this weekend and still cash out happy.

Ortega has definitely just completely reworked the gameplans against him. He was more mobile, defensive, smarter and had a lot more to throw...it was night and day from a guy with promising hands and chin to a measured fighter type. Sometimes it's that one loss that makes things clique and this might be an example.

I'm trying to get my muay thai and boxing experts on the line to discuss Khabib and Gaethje because it's REALLY tough to predict. Right now my two biggest deciding factors are Gaethje's ability to deny chain wrestling and Khabib's ability to deny the leg kicks. Wrestlers are usually good money to deny leg kicks but Gaethje is so comfortable throwing 'em that we'll see. The chain wrestling is interesting too because Gaethje's been taken down but his work rate has been crazy. I'm not sure if that'll make him susceptible to sloppiness or hard to hang on to.

My initial gut feeling is Gaethje with a late stoppage but smart money is Khabib...probably with a choke.
PG - Morris/G Riller/
SG - Booker/D Bane/Z.Smith
SF - Culver/Bonga/S Brown
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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Ortega vs Zombie and Lomachenko vs Lopez next 

Post#1227 » by HarthorneWingo » Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:48 pm

j4remi wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
Good call on Andrade. Hope you were able to "capitalize" off it. :D

Great breakdown of Ortega v KZ fight and the issues facing Brian in possible upcoming fights against Volko and Max. It looks like he's a much better position now to take them on than before and they will now have some things to think about too when then fight Ortega 2.0. Really looking forward to see it play out.

Gaethje v Khabib.

Can Justin stay off the cage with movement, leg kicks and technical striking?

Will Khabib wear out Gaethje? Can he keep Gaethje on the ground once he gets the takedown?


Not only did I capitalize, but I threw a last minute frustration bet on First Round KO after Gamrot let me down :lol: ...suffice to say, I can make a bunch of reckless bets this weekend and still cash out happy.

Ortega has definitely just completely reworked the gameplans against him. He was more mobile, defensive, smarter and had a lot more to throw...it was night and day from a guy with promising hands and chin to a measured fighter type. Sometimes it's that one loss that makes things clique and this might be an example.

I'm trying to get my muay thai and boxing experts on the line to discuss Khabib and Gaethje because it's REALLY tough to predictions . Right now my two biggest deciding factors are Gaethje's ability to deny chain wrestling and Khabib's ability to deny the leg kicks. Wrestlers are usually good money to deny leg kicks but Gaethje is so comfortable throwing 'em that we'll see. The chain wrestling is interesting too because Gaethje's been taken down but his work rate has been crazy. I'm not sure if that'll make him susceptible to sloppiness or hard to hang on to.

My initial gut feeling is Gaethje with a late stoppage but smart money is Khabib...probably with a choke.



Did you see the latest on Conor? He thinks he won 3 rounds against Khabib. :lol:

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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Ortega vs Zombie and Lomachenko vs Lopez next 

Post#1228 » by j4remi » Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:11 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:

Did you see the latest on Conor? He thinks he won 3 rounds against Khabib. :lol:



I don't know why dude has to go full delusional but that's absolutely bonkers. He's the only guy to win a round and he should be grateful for that and claim he knows how to adjust. Talking about the last fight like he won just makes me think he won't make the necessary changes to address the obvious gaps in their grappling profile. I don't trust him to show the patience to win the striking battle without getting taken down at all.

He needs to just get the Poirier fight inked because I've pretty much given up on taking him seriously at this point. I don't think he takes the sport seriously enough himself.
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SG - Booker/D Bane/Z.Smith
SF - Culver/Bonga/S Brown
PF - Spellman/W. Chandler/Metu
C - Gobert/Gafford/Hartenstein

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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Ortega vs Zombie and Lomachenko vs Lopez next 

Post#1229 » by HarthorneWingo » Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:01 pm

j4remi wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:

Did you see the latest on Conor? He thinks he won 3 rounds against Khabib. :lol:



I don't know why dude has to go full delusional but that's absolutely bonkers. He's the only guy to win a round and he should be grateful for that and claim he knows how to adjust. Talking about the last fight like he won just makes me think he won't make the necessary changes to address the obvious gaps in their grappling profile. I don't trust him to show the patience to win the striking battle without getting taken down at all.

He needs to just get the Poirier fight inked because I've pretty much given up on taking him seriously at this point. I don't think he takes the sport seriously enough himself.


I think Conor’s been taste testing his Proper 12 a little too much.
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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Ortega vs Zombie and Lomachenko vs Lopez next 

Post#1230 » by j4remi » Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:54 pm

https://anchor.fm/FTESWL/episodes/UFC-254-Preview-Podcast-eleo1l

Got a breakdown for some of the fights on 254 with a lot of time dedicated Khabib vs Gaethje. I'm going out on a limb and taking Gaethje to steal a decision with pure work. There are so many interesting variables. Also got a lot of discussion on Cannonier vs Whitaker and Israel Adesanya vs Cannonier and Jones. We did a bit on the HW's Harris and Volkov too. The other fight we discussed a bit is my prospect watch on Shavkat Rakhmonov...I think he's got an interesting skillset and some power behind it.

Admittedly this runs a bit long but we get into a LOT on the fights and fighters. We skipped a month so a lot of recapping snuck into the discussions.
PG - Morris/G Riller/
SG - Booker/D Bane/Z.Smith
SF - Culver/Bonga/S Brown
PF - Spellman/W. Chandler/Metu
C - Gobert/Gafford/Hartenstein

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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Ortega vs Zombie and Lomachenko vs Lopez next 

Post#1231 » by bringbackhoffa » Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:01 am

I'm leaning towards going
Khabib 3rd round submission
Whittaker 3 round split decision (wish this was 5 rounds)
Volkov 3 round decision 29-28 (loses the 3rd, could play out similar to derrick Lewis fight)
Lauren Murphy 3 round decision (coming off a solid decision over Roxanne)
Magomed 2nd round KO (though ion is a complete wildcard)
Charlotte
Morant/Rose/IT
Edwards/Roberson/McLemore
Ingram/Diallo/Ariza/Windler
LMA/JJJ/Mirotic
Favors/Powell
EL: Collison
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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Ortega vs Zombie and Lomachenko vs Lopez next 

Post#1232 » by j4remi » Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:58 am

bringbackhoffa wrote:I'm leaning towards going
Khabib 3rd round submission
Whittaker 3 round split decision (wish this was 5 rounds)
Volkov 3 round decision 29-28 (loses the 3rd, could play out similar to derrick Lewis fight)
Lauren Murphy 3 round decision (coming off a solid decision over Roxanne)
Magomed 2nd round KO (though ion is a complete wildcard)


I've got Gaethje SD
Cannonier 2nd Round TKO
Volkov UD
Murphy UD (full disclosure, I'm not familiar with her opponent)
Magomed 2nd round KO but agreed, this should be a straight up scrap.

Also Tuivasa over Struve and Kenney over Wood but that's a good fight too.
PG - Morris/G Riller/
SG - Booker/D Bane/Z.Smith
SF - Culver/Bonga/S Brown
PF - Spellman/W. Chandler/Metu
C - Gobert/Gafford/Hartenstein

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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Ortega vs Zombie and Lomachenko vs Lopez next 

Post#1233 » by bringbackhoffa » Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:05 am

j4remi wrote:
bringbackhoffa wrote:I'm leaning towards going
Khabib 3rd round submission
Whittaker 3 round split decision (wish this was 5 rounds)
Volkov 3 round decision 29-28 (loses the 3rd, could play out similar to derrick Lewis fight)
Lauren Murphy 3 round decision (coming off a solid decision over Roxanne)
Magomed 2nd round KO (though ion is a complete wildcard)


I've got Gaethje SD
Cannonier 2nd Round TKO
Volkov UD
Murphy UD (full disclosure, I'm not familiar with her opponent)
Magomed 2nd round KO but agreed, this should be a straight up scrap.

Also Tuivasa over Struve and Kenney over Wood but that's a good fight too.


Lets see if any of the AKA fundamentals have rubbed off on Tuivasa. Kind of a must win for him.

Gaethje is good but I think Khabib is next level. I just feel over the last couple of fights they say this is the fighter that's going to put khabib wrestling to a test by trying to stay in tbe middle of the cage. I just don't see it, he is just too good, fighting at his second home and fighting for his father. The leg kicks will have to be checked but as long as he doesn't decide to get in a slugfest I think he gets it done. I think he may even try to finish it even earlier than the 3rd.
Charlotte
Morant/Rose/IT
Edwards/Roberson/McLemore
Ingram/Diallo/Ariza/Windler
LMA/JJJ/Mirotic
Favors/Powell
EL: Collison
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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Ortega vs Zombie and Lomachenko vs Lopez next 

Post#1234 » by HarthorneWingo » Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:55 am

j4remi wrote:
bringbackhoffa wrote:I'm leaning towards going
Khabib 3rd round submission
Whittaker 3 round split decision (wish this was 5 rounds)
Volkov 3 round decision 29-28 (loses the 3rd, could play out similar to derrick Lewis fight)
Lauren Murphy 3 round decision (coming off a solid decision over Roxanne)
Magomed 2nd round KO (though ion is a complete wildcard)


I've got Gaethje SD
Cannonier 2nd Round TKO
Volkov UD
Murphy UD (full disclosure, I'm not familiar with her opponent)
Magomed 2nd round KO but agreed, this should be a straight up scrap.

Also Tuivasa over Struve and Kenney over Wood but that's a good fight too.


C'mon baby, let's see those snake eyes.

Good luck with that one. I love Justin but he's not beating Khabib in the first fight after his father died.

So I watched the UFC Countdown episode promoting this fight. Gaethje is quite the athlete. But the interesting thing is that he said he has very dense bones which makes so much sense for why his punches have so much power and why, when you hit him, it doesn't seem to phase him. I just don't thing he can stop Khabib's Dagastani chain wrestling.
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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Ortega vs Zombie and Lomachenko vs Lopez next 

Post#1235 » by j4remi » Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:11 pm

Gaethje's gonna be able to brag that he wrestled with the best American wrestler of this era and the best MMA wrestler of this era after Saturday. He broke some of Burroughs teeth and actually scored a takedown, though he lost like everyone else. I think Khabib will score some takedowns but I don't see Gaethje breaking. Khabib will have to catch him making a mistake in a scramble and I don't think Gaethje will make Poirier type mistakes with Wittman in his corner.
PG - Morris/G Riller/
SG - Booker/D Bane/Z.Smith
SF - Culver/Bonga/S Brown
PF - Spellman/W. Chandler/Metu
C - Gobert/Gafford/Hartenstein

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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Ortega vs Zombie and Lomachenko vs Lopez next 

Post#1236 » by bringbackhoffa » Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:17 pm

It looks like khabib may not have made weight and the person at the scale helped him out

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Charlotte
Morant/Rose/IT
Edwards/Roberson/McLemore
Ingram/Diallo/Ariza/Windler
LMA/JJJ/Mirotic
Favors/Powell
EL: Collison
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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Ortega vs Zombie and Lomachenko vs Lopez next 

Post#1237 » by j4remi » Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:25 pm

bringbackhoffa wrote:It looks like khabib may not have made weight and the person at the scale helped him out

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Whatever it takes to get us to that main event tomorrow fam! :lol:
PG - Morris/G Riller/
SG - Booker/D Bane/Z.Smith
SF - Culver/Bonga/S Brown
PF - Spellman/W. Chandler/Metu
C - Gobert/Gafford/Hartenstein

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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Ortega vs Zombie and Lomachenko vs Lopez next 

Post#1238 » by HarthorneWingo » Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:48 pm

bringbackhoffa wrote:It looks like khabib may not have made weight and the person at the scale helped him out

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Source?
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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Ortega vs Zombie and Lomachenko vs Lopez next 

Post#1239 » by bringbackhoffa » Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:49 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
bringbackhoffa wrote:It looks like khabib may not have made weight and the person at the scale helped him out

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Source?
https://www.mmafighting.com/2020/10/23/21530900/is-khabib-nurmagomedovs-speedy-scale-at-ufc-254-the-latest-ufc-weigh-in-controversy

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Charlotte
Morant/Rose/IT
Edwards/Roberson/McLemore
Ingram/Diallo/Ariza/Windler
LMA/JJJ/Mirotic
Favors/Powell
EL: Collison
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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Ortega vs Zombie and Lomachenko vs Lopez next 

Post#1240 » by HarthorneWingo » Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:57 pm

bringbackhoffa wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
bringbackhoffa wrote:It looks like khabib may not have made weight and the person at the scale helped him out

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Source?
https://www.mmafighting.com/2020/10/23/21530900/is-khabib-nurmagomedovs-speedy-scale-at-ufc-254-the-latest-ufc-weigh-in-controversy

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Thanks. I looked at it. My POV: Khabib looked tired/concerned walking up to the scale, which is preset to 155, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong about that). Once Khabib stood on the scale, the bar lifted and appeared to level when he slid the scale level. I don't thinks that's enough to raise a stink.
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