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Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Fight Island Usman vs Masvidal super card

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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Fight Island Usman vs Masvidal super card 

Post#961 » by NoStatsGuy » Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:31 pm

Manhattan Project wrote:Man even the scorecards for the Halloway fight just looks weird. Gonna need someone to explain that one to me.


dominik cruz made an argument, that i can kind of live with on ESPN.

Volk actively switched up his gameplan and braught a different aspect of an MMA fight to a kickboxing match. He explained that judges could value that like we maybe dont. and given the fact that volk probably won the championship rounds made them give the fight to volk.

i had it 3-2 max with a razor sharp 3rd round, thats why i said i could live with a draw. it wasnt a robbery but i still think max did enough. i value knocksdowns over takedowns, taht dont lead to dominat position or ground and pound or anything, really.

but judging a fight like that is super hard. so cant really blame the judges here.

it just sucks because if we had it 1-1, we could make an easy trilogy, let yair fight zhabit and zombie vs kattar/ortega and figure out whos the next real contender. because at the moment its hard to say whos behind Volk and Max as a clear contender.
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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Fight Island Usman vs Masvidal super card 

Post#962 » by Manhattan Project » Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:57 pm

NoStatsGuy wrote:
Manhattan Project wrote:Man even the scorecards for the Halloway fight just looks weird. Gonna need someone to explain that one to me.


dominik cruz made an argument, that i can kind of live with on ESPN.

Volk actively switched up his gameplan and braught a different aspect of an MMA fight to a kickboxing match. He explained that judges could value that like we maybe dont. and given the fact that volk probably won the championship rounds made them give the fight to volk.

i had it 3-2 max with a razor sharp 3rd round, thats why i said i could live with a draw. it wasnt a robbery but i still think max did enough. i value knocksdowns over takedowns, taht dont lead to dominat position or ground and pound or anything, really.

but judging a fight like that is super hard. so cant really blame the judges here.

it just sucks because if we had it 1-1, we could make an easy trilogy, let yair fight zhabit and zombie vs kattar/ortega and figure out whos the next real contender. because at the moment its hard to say whos behind Volk and Max as a clear contender.


Maybe Remi can speak to it, but I don't know what rules they were using over there. I know there are slight variations when it comes to the rules. I understand the whole the champ usually gets the benefit of the doubt, but if you're scoring round by round, who knows. It happened, can't change it now.
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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Fight Island Usman vs Masvidal super card 

Post#963 » by j4remi » Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:00 pm

Manhattan Project wrote:
NoStatsGuy wrote:dominik cruz made an argument, that i can kind of live with on ESPN.

Volk actively switched up his gameplan and braught a different aspect of an MMA fight to a kickboxing match. He explained that judges could value that like we maybe dont. and given the fact that volk probably won the championship rounds made them give the fight to volk.

i had it 3-2 max with a razor sharp 3rd round, thats why i said i could live with a draw. it wasnt a robbery but i still think max did enough. i value knocksdowns over takedowns, taht dont lead to dominat position or ground and pound or anything, really.

but judging a fight like that is super hard. so cant really blame the judges here.

it just sucks because if we had it 1-1, we could make an easy trilogy, let yair fight zhabit and zombie vs kattar/ortega and figure out whos the next real contender. because at the moment its hard to say whos behind Volk and Max as a clear contender.


Maybe Remi can speak to it, but I don't know what rules they were using over there. I know there are slight variations when it comes to the rules. I understand the whole the champ usually gets the benefit of the doubt, but if you're scoring round by round, who knows. It happened, can't change it now.


I kinda get what Cruz means, but I think it better applies to the old version of judging over the latest iteration put the highest value on "effective" striking and grappling before everything else. That's a dressed up way of saying, "the fighter who does the most damage, wins the round." The other factors, which are octagon control and aggression, only factor in when there's not a clear edge in damage. So a takedown without damage isn't scoring much in terms of effective grappling, but in a tight round I could see it factoring into octagon control and aggression.

The other key there is that damage isn't being calculated cumulatively. So for all the obvious damage Max does in rounds 1 and 2; round 3 starts off like a clean slate for Volkanovski to take. So round 3 is close and if you come away thinking it's an even split, then the takedown could be decisive by giving him an edge in the other factors...but I think Max landed an uppercut and some body shots that had clear impacts on Volk above even Volk's better strikes that landed. I'll have to watch it back.

Anyway, this kinda gets to the broader issue with how we score fights. It's crazy that a guy can get dropped in back to back rounds, and then still claim a belt by eke'ing out three rounds debatable rounds (3rd and 4th debatable at least). I think fights ought to be scored cumulatively rather than round by round. PRIDE basically looked at who came closer to a finish and who did the most damage over the course of the fight. It's still far from perfect but I like that approach more than the criteria we have now.
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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Fight Island Usman vs Masvidal super card 

Post#964 » by bringbackhoffa » Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:30 pm

Lets predict whats next..
Usman vs Burns
Masvidal off til early 2021
Volkanski vs winner of Ortega v Korean Zombie
Holloway vs winner of Zabit v Yair
Yan v Sterling
Aldo v Garbarandt
Rose v Weili
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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Fight Island Usman vs Masvidal super card 

Post#965 » by JamesConway » Mon Jul 13, 2020 4:01 pm

bringbackhoffa wrote:Lets predict whats next..
Usman vs Burns
Masvidal off til early 2021
Volkanski vs winner of Ortega v Korean Zombie
Holloway vs winner of Zabit v Yair
Yan v Sterling
Aldo v Garbarandt
Rose v Weili
Andrade vs Suarez

Lots of intrigueing matchups and then there are more wildcards like:

- when will Khabib come back considering he just lost his father
- what will Gaethje do in the meantime? Maybe a fight against Conor for the interim belt?
- Tony should probably take some time off but his fight was in early May which is already two months ago (wtf), I wouldn't rule him out for a fight late in 2020
- what will Covington do? I'd prefer him vs Masvidal over the Edwards-fight but who knows
- Nate?

Also Costa vs Adesanya doesn't have a date yet I believe either. Also some poor dude might have to face Ngannou while Stipe-DC plays out.
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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Fight Island Usman vs Masvidal super card 

Post#966 » by bringbackhoffa » Mon Jul 13, 2020 4:07 pm

JamesConway wrote:
bringbackhoffa wrote:Lets predict whats next..
Usman vs Burns
Masvidal off til early 2021
Volkanski vs winner of Ortega v Korean Zombie
Holloway vs winner of Zabit v Yair
Yan v Sterling
Aldo v Garbarandt
Rose v Weili
Andrade vs Suarez

Lots of intrigueing matchups and then there are more wildcards like:

- when will Khabib come back considering he just lost his father
- what will Gaethje do in the meantime? Maybe a fight against Conor for the interim belt?
- Tony should probably take some time off but his fight was in early May which is already two months ago (wtf), I wouldn't rule him out for a fight late in 2020
- what will Covington do? I'd prefer him vs Masvidal over the Edwards-fight but who knows
- Nate?

Also Costa vs Adesanya doesn't have a date yet I believe either. Also some poor dude might have to face Ngannou while Stipe-DC plays out.


yea i dont think we will see Khabib for a long time.. Gaethje v Porier makes sense given Porier has already beaten Gaethje recently
Tony v Hooker would make some sense, i wouldnt even mind seeing Tony giving 170 a shot, maybe a fight against Dos Anjos
Covington v Edwards seems likely or if Usman wants an extended break you go Covington v Burns

Costa v Adesanya is being put on hold because i think they are going to try to hold that in front of fans in New Zealand

Ngannou i think will hold out for winner of Stiepe v DC, only other fight that would make sense is vs Derrick Lewis
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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Fight Island Usman vs Masvidal super card 

Post#967 » by j4remi » Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:59 pm

I don't think Poirier vs Gaethje happens for an interim because if Diamond wins, UFC will have a nightmare trying to sell the rematch with Khabib. With marketing in mind, I wouldn't be shocked to see Conor enter the discussion there. He guarantees an audience and they can sneak him another title fight without looking so bad. I also wonder if Max sees 2 losses and finally commits to packing on some weight to make an honest run at 155. I still think he can have success there but he'd need to take time to pack on muscle and power to his frame first...now is a perfect chance to do that.

Yan/Sterling has to happen but don't be surprised if Garbrandt hype starts building. I feel the same on Volk's next opponent. Korean Zombie is the toughest one for him imo but I bet the winner of Yair/Zabit becomes the center of the discussion.

Rose vs Weili should happen and I think will. I'd run the rest of the division as Tatiana vs Joanna; Andrade vs the winner of Hill/Waterson...mainly because Andrade vs Hill part 1 was a fantastic fight.
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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Fight Island Usman vs Masvidal super card 

Post#968 » by GONYK » Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:17 pm

Are we thinking that a Masvidal v. Covington matchup is more or less likely now? Both of them have to win a few to earn another shot at Usman. A fight with the two of them would be a great tie-breaker on the resume.
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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Fight Island Usman vs Masvidal super card 

Post#969 » by j4remi » Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:11 pm

GONYK wrote:Are we thinking that a Masvidal v. Covington matchup is more or less likely now? Both of them have to win a few to earn another shot at Usman. A fight with the two of them would be a great tie-breaker on the resume.


I think the only thing stopping us from seeing that fight is the UFC not wanting to pay these guys what they're asking for. Masvidal only got paid after Burns got sick and there are rumors Colby got an offer but turned it down (on 6 days notice it could have been any number of factors though). If I'm the UFC, I'm trying to get Masvidal vs Colby and Burns vs Usman as co-main events for a PPV. It'd give Usman and Burns a bump in viewers plus line-up everyone for a compelling title fight next.

...and my guy Wonderboy could have the time to bulk up his resume and get back in the mix too.
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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Fight Island Usman vs Masvidal super card 

Post#970 » by HarthorneWingo » Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:19 pm

j4remi wrote:
GONYK wrote:Are we thinking that a Masvidal v. Covington matchup is more or less likely now? Both of them have to win a few to earn another shot at Usman. A fight with the two of them would be a great tie-breaker on the resume.


I think the only thing stopping us from seeing that fight is the UFC not wanting to pay these guys what they're asking for. Masvidal only got paid after Burns got sick and there are rumors Colby got an offer but turned it down (on 6 days notice it could have been any number of factors though). If I'm the UFC, I'm trying to get Masvidal vs Colby and Burns vs Usman as co-main events for a PPV. It'd give Usman and Burns a bump in viewers plus line-up everyone for a compelling title fight next.

...and my guy Wonderboy could have the time to bulk up his resume and get back in the mix too.


Where's Conor is all of this? Back down to 155?
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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Fight Island Usman vs Masvidal super card 

Post#971 » by j4remi » Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:29 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
Where's Conor is all of this? Back down to 155?


Yeah, my bold prediction for 155 is that the UFC will do everything in their power to avoid the risk of Poirier beating Gaethje a second time since they can't sell a rematch of Dustin and Khabib. With no one else in the contender discussions, this is the perfect place for them to try and forcefeed Conor into an interim title fight. Conor was trying to call out Gaethje for a second there too.
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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Fight Island Usman vs Masvidal super card 

Post#972 » by Clyde_Style » Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:39 pm

j4remi wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
Where's Conor is all of this? Back down to 155?


Yeah, my bold prediction for 155 is that the UFC will do everything in their power to avoid the risk of Poirier beating Gaethje a second time since they can't sell a rematch of Dustin and Khabib. With no one else in the contender discussions, this is the perfect place for them to try and forcefeed Conor into an interim title fight. Conor was trying to call out Gaethje for a second there too.


Justin looks like he went into the robot factory and came out with a new operating system. He looks fantastic now. Conor would have to put in a great training camp and come in with a clear mindset to have a chance IMO, though he always has a chance as a great puncher.
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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Fight Island Usman vs Masvidal super card 

Post#973 » by NoStatsGuy » Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:53 pm

thing is dana said multiple times, he doesnt want conor at 170. probably rightfully so, these guys are too much for conor i believe.

and i wouldnt be suprised to see cejudo barking for that 145 belt aswell
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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Fight Island Usman vs Masvidal super card 

Post#974 » by bringbackhoffa » Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:16 am

Ali banning all of his guys from going onto ESPN and TSN because he doesnt like Ariel..hahaha so petty

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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Fight Island Usman vs Masvidal super card 

Post#975 » by bringbackhoffa » Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:18 am

On the DC and Helwani show, Ariel mentioned UFC is in discussions to have Colby vs Woodley in mid August

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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Fight Island Usman vs Masvidal super card 

Post#976 » by j4remi » Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:40 am

Clyde_Style wrote:Justin looks like he went into the robot factory and came out with a new operating system. He looks fantastic now. Conor would have to put in a great training camp and come in with a clear mindset to have a chance IMO, though he always has a chance as a great puncher.


Gone to an absolutely higher level. I'd love to watch it play out with Conor because for as much flack as he gets, Conor's striking really is as good as advertised. I think Gaethje's pace and chin would hold up but it would be a hell of a battle to watch. I really don't want to lose Gaethje's shot at Khabib at the same time though; I need to see Khabib vs a wrestler of Gaethje's pedigree at least once before he calls it a career.
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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Fight Island Usman vs Masvidal super card 

Post#977 » by j4remi » Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:44 am

bringbackhoffa wrote:On the DC and Helwani show, Ariel mentioned UFC is in discussions to have Colby vs Woodley in mid August

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Masvidal did a million buys and now I'm not sure about Conor after all...Leon Edwards would be a fire match up too, cash in on the grudge.
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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Fight Island Usman vs Masvidal super card 

Post#978 » by Clyde_Style » Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:33 am

j4remi wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:Justin looks like he went into the robot factory and came out with a new operating system. He looks fantastic now. Conor would have to put in a great training camp and come in with a clear mindset to have a chance IMO, though he always has a chance as a great puncher.


Gone to an absolutely higher level. I'd love to watch it play out with Conor because for as much flack as he gets, Conor's striking really is as good as advertised. I think Gaethje's pace and chin would hold up but it would be a hell of a battle to watch. I really don't want to lose Gaethje's shot at Khabib at the same time though; I need to see Khabib vs a wrestler of Gaethje's pedigree at least once before he calls it a career.


I get it, but him vs. Conor would be hard to not get hyped about. It could turn into one of the best war zone match-ups possible and would probably be action packed until someone's ticket gets punched. No way it would go to a decision. I'm already salivating. Sorry Khabib; make it happen jremi
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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: Fight Island Usman vs Masvidal super card 

Post#979 » by j4remi » Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:06 pm

Clyde_Style wrote:I get it, but him vs. Conor would be hard to not get hyped about. It could turn into one of the best war zone match-ups possible and would probably be action packed until someone's ticket gets punched. No way it would go to a decision. I'm already salivating. Sorry Khabib; make it happen jremi


I can't lie, I think it's got a good shot at happening. The fact that Masvidal hit a million buys does raise a bit of question though; the UFC could see themselves sitting on a goldmine with that match-up. I'd prefer Conor vs Gaethje myself. Though I'd LOVE for it to be after Gaethje beats Khabib.
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Re: Official MMA discussion thread pt 2: UFC 250 Nunes vs Spencer: top to bottom good fights again 

Post#980 » by j4remi » Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:00 pm

j4remi wrote:Top to bottom they're great. I want O'Malley to fight one of the other prospects, preferably Yadong because I think Stamman has earned a higher ranked opponent next. Sterling HAS to get the winner of Aldo/Yan. Then the fight I REALLY want to see is this version of Cody Garbrandt meeting Marlon Moraes. That'd be my most anticipated fight in the division.


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