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NYK: Changing the Culture

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Re: NYK: Changing the Culture 

Post#41 » by thebuzzardman » Thu Jun 6, 2019 2:05 pm

dakomish23 wrote:
Spoiler:
thebuzzardman wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:
The ppl complaining when we were winning are probably the same ppl trying to blame him for stuff now.

I’m not saying culture isn’t important. It is. But the endgame is the W column. And as we agree, talent matters most when it comes to that.


Ok Vince Lombardi. :D

Ha - just playing around.

Yes, of course winning is what matters. It's chicken or the egg territory though. Does the culture help bring about the wins or vice versa?

I'd say it's talent, but again, does culture help in assembling talent? Is it talent (in scouting and GM'ing) that gets talent? Luck? Both? In that luck favors the prepared? All of the above? It's not none of the above.

Mostly it's about competence and talent. If that can also be vaguely defined as "culture" then we agree totally. But we're basically in the ballpark. I just find it interesting to talk about the impact of a good team culture in sports (and anywhere) - but no org or team is going anywhere without talent. I'll leave it with the fact that well run places attract talent because talent wants to be around other talent, both managerial and co-workers (teammates)


When we’re this bereft of talent, would you pass on one of these guys who could potentially bring some drama? Especially after everything we’ve done to get here?

I think we would be foolish to do so.


Bring some drama? Not specifically a problem. I've already pointed out in other posts that I separate basketball culture from how a guy acts. Basically, if he plays hard, plays tough defense and shares the ball, a little bit of being a diva is tolerable.
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Re: NYK: Changing the Culture 

Post#42 » by Cookies4Life » Thu Jun 6, 2019 2:26 pm

Juco24 wrote:
Meat wrote:
Cookies4Life wrote:Mills and Perry have been saying the same things for 2 years- they want to build a culture here and build this teams through the draft. Steve was saying this even before Perry was here that the fanbase is fine with a rebuild and that they weren't going to take any shortcuts. They both preach about the idea of sustaining a long term contender here.

They've mentioned all of that ad nauseum which is a great thing to hear as a fan. So it seems very odd to me that there's this notion they'll be trading the farm to acquire a potential 3rd star if they're able to secure 2 max FA's. It would seem very counterproductive as all our young talent outside of Robinson would be getting traded with their value at an all time low. If the staff prides themselves on player development, they should be working diligently on improving the games of Knox, DSJ and Frank, 3 mid lottery guys from the last 2 seasons.

I tell my girl she’s my soulmate... till I win the mega millions and learn I have a shot at “insert famous person.” This Knicks have an unprecedented chance to acquire 3 top 10-15 players in the league. Of course you change gears


While I wouldn't go that far, Lol... you're exactly right! The successful ones diagram a plan and implement it -- however, along the process if an opportunity or even a roadblock presents itself -- then you have to know how to divert from the initial and move forward with what has changed in the current. Evolution



I get the idea of having contingency plans in place; it's a multi billion dollar corporation so I'm not under the pretense they only have a singular path to success.

My main point was we're selling extremely low on all of our lottery picks from the last 2 seasons. If those kids continue to develop, their worth will increase exponentially.

People were mentioning dumping DSJ and Frank- an 8th and 9th pick from just two years ago- for this year's current #6 pick in Phoenix. This team is always looking for the shiny new toys when sometimes it might be better just to develop in house instead of always looking for greener pastures.

This team aligned things well enough to ascertain 2 max players this offseason. Dumping ALL our assets for one player-who btw I believe is the best player in the league in AD- is a gamble. We'd essentially be giving up a potential starting 5 unit plus multiple draft picks.

people think it's a slam dunk to win a title by getting 3 superstars. It worked with the Heat but not many other teams that tried to build through FA (think LAL when they picked up Malone who still had plenty left in the tank and Payton to combine with Shaq and KObe.)

There's no clear cut formula to winning consistently. Warriors did it by developing their own guys and having enough space to pick up 1 player (KD) without depleting their depth in the process.
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Re: NYK: Changing the Culture 

Post#43 » by EL CABRITO » Thu Jun 6, 2019 2:55 pm

It seems to me we were just signing guys to sell tickets and acquiring players with the (silly) hope that we could go all the way think something along the lines of the Cinderella narrative. The Knicks brass were (are?) like bad gamblers, they go all in on all the wrong hands. So many terrible risks that didn't pan out, a

We had a lot of coaches who have had some success, but they came here only to not have guys like Steve Nash running the point , or didn't have guys who can actually play fundamental basketball. Injuries ...then the over commitment to the aging and declining "super star".

No coach or GM was ever really to impact the team "culture", in fact the only team identity we only had was the being tough and scrappy, and this was in the 90's. I was exited when Phil got on board, I'm pretty sure there are a lot of my own posts here which sing his praises , lol.

Thinking back he did want to trade KP for Devin Booker. Maybe he was onto something but I drank the Kool Aid. I'm still and fan waiting and hoping that this franchise will turn the corner. But in order for that to occur there really has to be some sort of change that flows downward to where the players are effected, in a positive way , one where, other teams will actually be afraid to play us instead of seeing us as a W and a tomato can. And actually want to play here. I'm rambling, but u get the gist folks. :banghead:
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Re: NYK: Changing the Culture 

Post#44 » by Juco24 » Thu Jun 6, 2019 2:58 pm

Cookies4Life wrote:
Juco24 wrote:
Meat wrote:I tell my girl she’s my soulmate... till I win the mega millions and learn I have a shot at “insert famous person.” This Knicks have an unprecedented chance to acquire 3 top 10-15 players in the league. Of course you change gears


While I wouldn't go that far, Lol... you're exactly right! The successful ones diagram a plan and implement it -- however, along the process if an opportunity or even a roadblock presents itself -- then you have to know how to divert from the initial and move forward with what has changed in the current. Evolution



I get the idea of having contingency plans in place; it's a multi billion dollar corporation so I'm not under the pretense they only have a singular path to success.

My main point was we're selling extremely low on all of our lottery picks from the last 2 seasons. If those kids continue to develop, their worth will increase exponentially.

People were mentioning dumping DSJ and Frank- an 8th and 9th pick from just two years ago- for this year's current #6 pick in Phoenix. This team is always looking for the shiny new toys when sometimes it might be better just to develop in house instead of always looking for greener pastures.

This team aligned things well enough to ascertain 2 max players this offseason. Dumping ALL our assets for one player-who btw I believe is the best player in the league in AD- is a gamble. We'd essentially be giving up a potential starting 5 unit plus multiple draft picks.

people think it's a slam dunk to win a title by getting 3 superstars. It worked with the Heat but not many other teams that tried to build through FA (think LAL when they picked up Malone who still had plenty left in the tank and Payton to combine with Shaq and KObe.)

There's no clear cut formula to winning consistently. Warriors did it by developing their own guys and having enough space to pick up 1 player (KD) without depleting their depth in the process.


Honestly, I get what you're saying... personally, I wouldn't give up a SL for one player either (especially Robinson) - but yet at the same time, I can see why many would. I trust Perry has already decided how far he's willing to go in pursuit of Davis so I don't think we'll give away the entire farm. Now, we are talking about potentially having a Big 3 of Davis/Durant/Kyrie... No, that certainly does NOT guarantee a title but neither does keeping the youngsters guarantee a title either.

If I'm the GM, regardless of how I feel about the youth - if an opportunity presents itself to place that aforementioned 3some together... You do it 10 times out of 10 because you're immediately the odds on favorite to win that coveted championship.
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Re: NYK: Changing the Culture 

Post#45 » by dakomish23 » Thu Jun 6, 2019 6:07 pm

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Re: NYK: Changing the Culture 

Post#46 » by Hckyfn17 » Thu Jun 6, 2019 7:35 pm

Really interesting thread, y'all

With all the talk of "culture," it worries me that we've backed ourselves into a corner by relying too much on a big free agency haul this summer, which runs counter to our recent renewed focus on player development and eschewing the type of delusional "star*phucking" that's continued for years

The exception here is if we get Kawhi, a move that would be on par with Mark Messier joining the NY Rangers in the early 90s and immediately assuming the alpha/Captaincy/leadership mantle on an otherwise young squad.

Any of the other guys are fool's gold as they haven't done enough to warrant that role and the level of scrutiny that comes with being the presumed leader of a team in NYC

Franchises hoping for an immediate "quick fix" happens all the time, 2000 Orlando Magic in free agency with T-Mac and Grant Hill is a perfect example. Solid role players like Darrell Armstrong, Bo Outlaw, Pat Garrity, young Mike Miller, etc. but nothing otherwise established before adding two max players. Hill gets injured and that team only imroves by 2 wins over the previous year's squad (41 to 43)

Too Long; Didn't Read: I'd rather see an extra year of development committed to Knox, Frank, DSJr, Mitch Rob, Dotson + Barrett/Culver, etc BECAUSE teams that have a young & talented core like that will eventually establish their own culture and thus the whole process is that much more sustainable from a team-building & free agency destination perspective

TL;DR: Don't waste all of this on trading for AD and signing KD and Kyrie. Kawhi, Klay and Danny Green are the guys I want to see suiting up next Fall

oh, and we definitely need to resign Noah Vonleh
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Re: NYK: Changing the Culture 

Post#47 » by thebuzzardman » Thu Jun 6, 2019 9:02 pm

Hckyfn17 wrote:Really interesting thread, y'all

With all the talk of "culture," it worries me that we've backed ourselves into a corner by relying too much on a big free agency haul this summer, which runs counter to our recent renewed focus on player development and eschewing the type of delusional "star*phucking" that's continued for years

The exception here is if we get Kawhi, a move that would be on par with Mark Messier joining the NY Rangers in the early 90s and immediately assuming the alpha/Captaincy/leadership mantle on an otherwise young squad.

Any of the other guys are fool's gold as they haven't done enough to warrant that role and the level of scrutiny that comes with being the presumed leader of a team in NYC

Franchises hoping for an immediate "quick fix" happens all the time, 2000 Orlando Magic in free agency with T-Mac and Grant Hill is a perfect example. Solid role players like Darrell Armstrong, Bo Outlaw, Pat Garrity, young Mike Miller, etc. but nothing otherwise established before adding two max players. Hill gets injured and that team only imroves by 2 wins over the previous year's squad (41 to 43)

Too Long; Didn't Read: I'd rather see an extra year of development committed to Knox, Frank, DSJr, Mitch Rob, Dotson + Barrett/Culver, etc BECAUSE teams that have a young & talented core like that will eventually establish their own culture and thus the whole process is that much more sustainable from a team-building & free agency destination perspective

TL;DR: Don't waste all of this on trading for AD and signing KD and Kyrie. Kawhi, Klay and Danny Green are the guys I want to see suiting up next Fall

oh, and we definitely need to resign Noah Vonleh



I hear what you are saying. A little while back I was feeling that this FA thing came up one year too early - not unlike the Knicks are about a year behind the Nets in rebuilding. Maybe two years.

Anyway, I like that in general the Knicks are committed to building via the draft, holding on to picks, player development.

And in something I meant to post as an answer to CapnO, but didn't, it's still right to feel a little wary, as though Phil was an "transitional" culture change, in that he was post McKinsey and kept picks, Phil/The Knicks DID decide to resign Melo when maybe it was time to cut bait, start the rebuild then. And then commit long term contracts to Noah and CLee - but at least not long term contracts to DRose and Jennings.

I guess it's possible that the Knicks decided, "culturally" to keep picks, and at the same time, take on last shot with the last of Melo's prime.

When it became apparent that the Knicks couldn't really put a team around him, Phil was acting crazy etc, that the Knicks decided to can Phil and it's at that moment the rebuild begins, though maybe not as "in earnest" as we'd like.

First misstep: Committing too much money to THJr.

Anyway, maybe that could be seen as trying to put some guys into KP's timeline.

What I like about what Perry has done, other than not tanking HARD in the year of Hornacek and Jarrett Jack, is they've made trades when they need to. Traded Melo to keep Melo happy, keep reputation in the league and possibly get assets. Got Kanter and McDermott, who became Mudiay - not much. But didn't that 2nd round pick become Mitch?

Made the tough and maybe right call (time will tell) of trading KP, when it became apparent he either soured on the team, that they weren't sure he'd be healthy, not sure he'd be worth tying up 125 million at 25 million per for 5 years, or they were sick of his entourage trying to run too much of the org while being amateurs. All of the above? Some of the above?

But when they did the KP trade, they accomplished two really important things - they cleared out all their cap room, and got back two picks, plus a player with some value around the league, in DSJr.

While this may ultimately not work out in favor of the Knicks, it shows some vision, boldness, and a team that is looking to collect assets.

To get to the point - the part to be wary is that the Knicks, really right up to the moment they signed THJr, have shown a tendency to jump at fixes. Even when they hired Phil, they tried to quick fix a team around Melo. So the Knicks history of this is not that far in the past, though it stretches far into the past as well. And Mills is still around, who had a hand in some of the recent iterations of this bad idea.

The hope is that Perry has a better idea and that the culture change also extended to letting the GM do his thing, not without any input from the POBO, but at least have the dominant say. And so far, that seems true and Perry seems up to the task.

So, it's possible that "jumping at the chance" of KP/Other Max Cat/AD is "same old knicks", but even an org that wants to commit to building internally and develop players and keep picks, even teams like that could and should strike when an opportunity presents itself that won't be available for another few years.

Fans have to trust that Perry is plugged in enough that he's got a real handle on the situation.

Also, while I'm go back and forth about trading a lot of the youth/assets for AD, it's possible the Knicks really want to go two max cats and use their youth/assets to fill out the roster by some of the being on the roster, while others are traded away for vets (but not "stars") that make more sense.

We don't exactly know. The Knicks could do a lot of things. It's why it's the most interesting offseason ever.
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Re: NYK: Changing the Culture 

Post#48 » by Clyde_Style » Fri Jun 7, 2019 12:02 am

br7knicks wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:
rrosario35 wrote:So I've been wondering, when Phil Jackson came on board there was all this talk about changing the culture of the team... It started to happen and Perry preached the same when he got here.
The teams culture definitely seems to have changed, the divas are gone, the drama is gone and I personally enjoyed watching the young kids and dreaming of the potential.
With the Summer quickly approaching I'm trying to figure out how things would look if Kyrie and KD came on board... I mean if KP was a diva, what's KD and KI going to be like? It's gonna be weird as f***.
So having said that... which top free agents do you think fit in best with the "culture" of this team... Still KD & Kyrie?

https://www.nba.com/freeagents/2019/tracker

Am I crazy for hoping Vince Carter gets a spot as the wise vet on the team?

D-Lo and Brogdon would be good signings imo. Still quite young, would add shooting and playmaking to our team.

Russell / DSJ
Brogdon / Frank / Trier
Barrett or Culver / Dotson
TBD / Knox
Mitch

This line-up needs one more veteran at the 4 but this team would be quite exciting imo.

As I've said many times, KD and Kyrie will only bring drama and disappointment at the Garden. I've had enough of that personally.


I think Durant would be a problem for culture change, too.


Melo brought great scoring talent, but he also brought defensive liability, inability to change and adapt game to help the team win vs getting his own numbers and shots, poor leadership, and an incredible amount of difficulty to build around one player.

Durant is more of an off the court, mental problem tho.

Melo was a net negative, in that his negatives didn't make up for his positive in scoring. Is Durant that much of a negative for culture change, and is it worth it for the Knicks? That's a big question.


Durant is a vastly superior player than Melo ever was, yet he is probably on the downside of his prime years which is the true caveat in his case IMO
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Re: NYK: Changing the Culture 

Post#49 » by Huey Freeman » Fri Jun 7, 2019 8:56 pm

A lot of cats on here now posting to REALLY try and convince themselves everything going to be okay with our mediocre young guys (sans Mitch) and with striking out next month. I see you. :D
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Re: NYK: Changing the Culture 

Post#50 » by will » Sat Jun 8, 2019 8:55 pm

Great start with Fiz and Scott Perry. Stability starts there.

Jimmy Dolan just keep cuttin' them cheques. And stop being so petty with Oak. SMH.
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Re: NYK: Changing the Culture 

Post#51 » by Nazrmohamed » Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:18 pm

Huey Freeman wrote:A lot of cats on here now posting to REALLY try and convince themselves everything going to be okay with our mediocre young guys (sans Mitch) and with striking out next month. I see you. :D


Plus the 3rd pick in the draft and many more to come. Yes
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Re: NYK: Changing the Culture 

Post#52 » by EricAnderson » Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:09 pm

Cookies4Life wrote:Mills and Perry have been saying the same things for 2 years- they want to build a culture here and build this teams through the draft. Steve was saying this even before Perry was here that the fanbase is fine with a rebuild and that they weren't going to take any shortcuts. They both preach about the idea of sustaining a long term contender here.

They've mentioned all of that ad nauseum which is a great thing to hear as a fan. So it seems very odd to me that there's this notion they'll be trading the farm to acquire a potential 3rd star if they're able to secure 2 max FA's. It would seem very counterproductive as all our young talent outside of Robinson would be getting traded with their value at an all time low. If the staff prides themselves on player development, they should be working diligently on improving the games of Knox, DSJ and Frank, 3 mid lottery guys from the last 2 seasons.


Player development isn’t a magic wand if you don’t have good enough players.

Player development helps if you have very talented players to begin with and you nurture that

Quite frankly most of our young players aren’t that great and player development isn’t gonna magically give them better talent and more ability
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Re: NYK: Changing the Culture 

Post#53 » by EricAnderson » Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:19 pm

Hckyfn17 wrote:Really interesting thread, y'all

With all the talk of "culture," it worries me that we've backed ourselves into a corner by relying too much on a big free agency haul this summer, which runs counter to our recent renewed focus on player development and eschewing the type of delusional "star*phucking" that's continued for years

The exception here is if we get Kawhi, a move that would be on par with Mark Messier joining the NY Rangers in the early 90s and immediately assuming the alpha/Captaincy/leadership mantle on an otherwise young squad.

Any of the other guys are fool's gold as they haven't done enough to warrant that role and the level of scrutiny that comes with being the presumed leader of a team in NYC

Franchises hoping for an immediate "quick fix" happens all the time, 2000 Orlando Magic in free agency with T-Mac and Grant Hill is a perfect example. Solid role players like Darrell Armstrong, Bo Outlaw, Pat Garrity, young Mike Miller, etc. but nothing otherwise established before adding two max players. Hill gets injured and that team only imroves by 2 wins over the previous year's squad (41 to 43)

Too Long; Didn't Read: I'd rather see an extra year of development committed to Knox, Frank, DSJr, Mitch Rob, Dotson + Barrett/Culver, etc BECAUSE teams that have a young & talented core like that will eventually establish their own culture and thus the whole process is that much more sustainable from a team-building & free agency destination perspective

TL;DR: Don't waste all of this on trading for AD and signing KD and Kyrie. Kawhi, Klay and Danny Green are the guys I want to see suiting up next Fall

oh, and we definitely need to resign Noah Vonleh


So signing the best player in the league(until last night) and another star or two would have been bad for the “culture”? Man gtfo signing a healthy Durant(if he was healthy) another star and possibly trading for AD isn’t anyway comparable to signing Melo and Amare. You’re talking about much better basketball players. Melo and Amare are not KD and AD and whoever else.

Also building from whithon is fine if you have good enough players. We simply don’t have elite talent with our young players. There’s no franchise changing young players here. Hell we dont even know if any of these guys are gonna be good at all never mind franchise changing.
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Re: NYK: Changing the Culture 

Post#54 » by EricAnderson » Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:33 pm

Cookies4Life wrote:
Juco24 wrote:
Meat wrote:I’m





.



There's no clear cut formula to winning consistently. Warriors did it by developing their own guys and having enough space to pick up 1 player (KD) without depleting their depth in the process.


There is a clear cut formula to winning titles there has been since the NBA’s existence its having top of the league players. Not good players not just top 10ish players but a player who’s arguably the best player in the league to start with and ideally an all star or two as his sidekicks.

That’s why the Durant(pre injury) AD thing made sense. Having a top of the league player is much more important then having depth.

We currently have no player who is even gonna sniff that level. And the chances another FA on that level wants to come here who knows when that comes again if ever.

That’s the reason it’s so hard to win titles in the Nba and why most teams go generations without a title because of how hard it is to land that player.

The idea that you don’t want a player like Durant (pre injury) in favor of depth and young players who we don’t even know if they’ll be good never mind that level is just foolish.
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Re: NYK: Changing the Culture 

Post#55 » by CharlesOakley » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:21 pm

EricAnderson wrote:So signing the best player in the league(until last night) and another star or two would have been bad for the “culture”? Man gtfo signing a healthy Durant(if he was healthy) another star and possibly trading for AD isn’t anyway comparable to signing Melo and Amare. You’re talking about much better basketball players. Melo and Amare are not KD and AD and whoever else.

Also building from whithon is fine if you have good enough players. We simply don’t have elite talent with our young players. There’s no franchise changing young players here. Hell we dont even know if any of these guys are gonna be good at all never mind franchise changing.


A comparison could be made between Kyrie and Amare. Kyrie certainly has the medical history to crap out 2 years into a max contract. Even without Durant's injury, he is still at the tail end of his career and maxing out a guy who will be 35 at the end of his contract can run us into the same old "aging star" problem.

I don't think it would be bad for culture, but it might be bad for the future.
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Re: NYK: Changing the Culture 

Post#56 » by EricAnderson » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:28 pm

CharlesOakley wrote:
EricAnderson wrote:So signing the best player in the league(until last night) and another star or two would have been bad for the “culture”? Man gtfo signing a healthy Durant(if he was healthy) another star and possibly trading for AD isn’t anyway comparable to signing Melo and Amare. You’re talking about much better basketball players. Melo and Amare are not KD and AD and whoever else.

Also building from whithon is fine if you have good enough players. We simply don’t have elite talent with our young players. There’s no franchise changing young players here. Hell we dont even know if any of these guys are gonna be good at all never mind franchise changing.


A comparison could be made between Kyrie and Amare. Kyrie certainly has the medical history to crap out 2 years into a max contract. Even without Durant's injury, he is still at the tail end of his career and maxing out a guy who will be 35 at the end of his contract can run us into the same old "aging star" problem.

I don't think it would be bad for culture, but it might be bad for the future.


If we won a title but had to deal with Durant not being in his prime the last year or two of the contract id sign up for that in a second
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Re: NYK: Changing the Culture 

Post#57 » by moocow007 » Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:46 pm

Meat wrote:
rrosario35 wrote:So I've been wondering, when Phil Jackson came on board there was all this talk about changing the culture of the team... It started to happen and Perry preached the same when he got here.
The teams culture definitely seems to have changed, the divas are gone, the drama is gone and I personally enjoyed watching the young kids and dreaming of the potential.
With the Summer quickly approaching I'm trying to figure out how things would look if Kyrie and KD came on board... I mean if KP was a diva, what's KD and KI going to be like? It's gonna be weird as f***.
So having said that... which top free agents do you think fit in best with the "culture" of this team... Still KD & Kyrie?

https://www.nba.com/freeagents/2019/tracker

Am I crazy for hoping Vince Carter gets a spot as the wise vet on the team?

you know what creates and changes culture? winning. Jordan was a massive piece of **** but no one talks about the bulls bad culture
The Bad Boys Pistons was also a great example of that. Same with the great Celtics teams of the 60's. You don't need to be boy scouts, you don't need to like each other, you can be **** and prima donnas. You just need to, as a collective, have an undying need to compete and win for 48 minutes each day.

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Re: NYK: Changing the Culture 

Post#58 » by Jeff Van Gully » Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:43 pm

moocow007 wrote:
Meat wrote:
rrosario35 wrote:So I've been wondering, when Phil Jackson came on board there was all this talk about changing the culture of the team... It started to happen and Perry preached the same when he got here.
The teams culture definitely seems to have changed, the divas are gone, the drama is gone and I personally enjoyed watching the young kids and dreaming of the potential.
With the Summer quickly approaching I'm trying to figure out how things would look if Kyrie and KD came on board... I mean if KP was a diva, what's KD and KI going to be like? It's gonna be weird as f***.
So having said that... which top free agents do you think fit in best with the "culture" of this team... Still KD & Kyrie?

https://www.nba.com/freeagents/2019/tracker

Am I crazy for hoping Vince Carter gets a spot as the wise vet on the team?

you know what creates and changes culture? winning. Jordan was a massive piece of **** but no one talks about the bulls bad culture
The Bad Boys Pistons was also a great example of that. Same with the great Celtics teams of the 60's. You don't need to be boy scouts, you don't need to like each other, you can be **** and prima donnas. You just need to, as a collective, have an undying need to compete and win for 48 minutes each day.

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both are possible. you can do it the spurs way, or you can do it the phil jackson way in both chi and LA. talent is required in both cases. the lakers did eventually fall apart over culture issues though while the spurs were sustainable contenders for 2 decades.
RIP magnumt

all we got iz us szn(s)
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HarthorneWingo
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Re: NYK: Changing the Culture 

Post#59 » by HarthorneWingo » Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:38 pm

Alternative Title:

"Don't Do Stupid Things"
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