Summer League Thread // Schedule Released: Zion vs RJ July 5th

[br7knicks]

i think it's quite well documented that i'm anti-knox and have been since he showed a lack of IQ, motor, and defensive basics last year during summer league.


but he is starting to change my mind, after the first 2 summer league games. i haven't had a chance to watch the rest of them. but if i'm going based on what i saw in the first two, i'd like to hold on to him and see how he does. he definitely hasn't changed my mind completely, as he still lacks a lot of defensive basics, and decision making on offense.


but he finally seems to give a ****, and he's showing signs of improvement, mainly mentally.

as anti-knox as i've been, i always said that i hope he changes my mind. he's on the right track, but he's not out of the woods, yet. your analysis is quite perfect for him, though.

Good to hear. I think Knox's true ceiling is better than most people think. I just don't think he will be a great defender and I think he will be somewhat turnover prone. Like I said, I see a Keith Van Horn type career. Not bad at all with some nice tools and can have some explosive games offensively from time to time but lacking in some areas. Ideally he would be around the 3rd or 4th best guy on a championship type team (when he reaches his ceiling).

Frank on the other hand I just don't see it at all from an offensive standpoint. Very little threat to drive... you have to hope he can become a proficient 3pt shooter because I think his absolute ceiling is a 3 and D guy. Courtney Lee with less offensive skill but better defense. Knicks have probably picked up on this because he is like the main guy they have tried to trade.

I like the improvements Knox has made and feel that with his work ethics I have no doubt that he will improve. On defense his ceiling is average, not worried because this day and age it's more of a team thing with all the switching, heck look at players like James Harden, Curry, K.I, K. Walker, Kevin Love, Blake Griffin, Westbrook, Paul, Tobias, Lillard, Wall, Beal. All have made the all star team, but none of them are known for their defense. On offense I can see him becoming Dirk like, keeps it very high making it hard to block. Dirk's first year he shot 20% from 3, 8.2ppg, 3.4 RPG. Knox was much better his first year. Tobias Harris at 26.1% from 3, 5ppg, 2.4 RBs while Knox had 12.8ppg, 34% from 3, and 4.5 RB.

People can be real tough on young players as if they expect them to be great day one, As far as Frank, he's the opposite as far as my expectations. Average offensive player who can run a team the way it's supposed to be ran, but defense that can put the clamps on any player under 6'8. you need players like him to help defend ball dominant stars (K.I, Harden, Westbrook) I want Frank guarding Irvin day one. Stop him and the Nets will go down. If Frank can consistently hit his open shots (Charlie Ward) and continue to play great defense, he should be a keeper.

i couldn't agree more about frank, either. i don't get how people on here don't understand that it's impossible to have a superstar at each position. everyone here gets down on guys like frank, who are highIQ, defense and team first, and don't need the ball to be effective. it's perplexing to me that people here can't grasp that concept.

i do think frank will have a lot less value if he's unable to hit an open 3 pointer. unless he turns into tony allen level of defense (isn't he only 20 or 21?), it will be hard to justify him sticking around.

but it'll be important to have guys like frank on a roster, especially if you want to WIN basketball games.

[newyorker4ever]

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[br7knicks]

Al Harrington was nice. Was just in a bad situation here

Free candy Al Harrington? He was one of the worst Knicks to put on a uniform. He was worse than Knox, especially because he was a veteran.

No IQ, and no concept of team baaketball

On the knicks it didn’t work but he was fine on the Pacers and warriors

i agree with you a bit on that. that was also the time when the knicks had no direction. harrington would be fine as a sixth/seventh man off the bench for scoring. so you are right that he was in a bad situation here.

but he was the kind of guy, while on the knicks, who hurt their chances of developing young players (lee, gallo, chandler, etc).

i just hated watching him on my screen

[dakomish23]

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There’s gonna be a lot of close triple double games in this kid’s career

When was the last time we had a guy like that?

[YMMV]

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And that was with the first 2 garbage games.

[Juco24]

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There’s gonna be a lot of close triple double games in this kid’s career

When was the last time we had a guy like that?

Never in the most recent past! Maybe Clyde but that was before my time... Sprewell was probably the last well-rounded player we've had that could fill up the stat line like RJ --- but let's trade him for Fred VanVleet (don't know if I'll ever get over that post, lol)

The thing about RJ is that his unselfish play is contagious... (to borrow a line from Isiah). I don't have the stats, but once RJ found his rhythm - it seemed as though the entire team began passing to each other more ESPECIALLY KNOX. It's like, suddenly a light bulb (named Barrett) went off inside his head and what I particularly liked is how those two seemed to look for each other more. Not to mention Money Mitch. The game is easier and the team is successful when guys play together and for each other. This is what RJ brings... that fire, confidence & desire to get better.

Guys, we're in good hands for the future.

Sidenote: Any true basketball fan NEEDS to watch the NBATV conversation between Shaq & Kobe.... It's a must see

[mpharris36]

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He relaxed and stopped forcing things after the first two games. Sure he shot better but he also just took better shots and made better decisions.

I was more impressed with his distirbuing and rebounding skills (which I knew he had). Those are the things he can do and I love the fact he should be able to effect the game even when he isn't scoring. His shot isn't a lost cause either. He has a bit of a low release but it's relatively smooth and he is always a threat to drive so that should open up opportunities to know down outside shots.

Very impressed with how he finished SL.

[MaseInYourFace]

Good to hear. I think Knox's true ceiling is better than most people think. I just don't think he will be a great defender and I think he will be somewhat turnover prone. Like I said, I see a Keith Van Horn type career. Not bad at all with some nice tools and can have some explosive games offensively from time to time but lacking in some areas. Ideally he would be around the 3rd or 4th best guy on a championship type team (when he reaches his ceiling).

Frank on the other hand I just don't see it at all from an offensive standpoint. Very little threat to drive... you have to hope he can become a proficient 3pt shooter because I think his absolute ceiling is a 3 and D guy. Courtney Lee with less offensive skill but better defense. Knicks have probably picked up on this because he is like the main guy they have tried to trade.

I like the improvements Knox has made and feel that with his work ethics I have no doubt that he will improve. On defense his ceiling is average, not worried because this day and age it's more of a team thing with all the switching, heck look at players like James Harden, Curry, K.I, K. Walker, Kevin Love, Blake Griffin, Westbrook, Paul, Tobias, Lillard, Wall, Beal. All have made the all star team, but none of them are known for their defense. On offense I can see him becoming Dirk like, keeps it very high making it hard to block. Dirk's first year he shot 20% from 3, 8.2ppg, 3.4 RPG. Knox was much better his first year. Tobias Harris at 26.1% from 3, 5ppg, 2.4 RBs while Knox had 12.8ppg, 34% from 3, and 4.5 RB.

People can be real tough on young players as if they expect them to be great day one, As far as Frank, he's the opposite as far as my expectations. Average offensive player who can run a team the way it's supposed to be ran, but defense that can put the clamps on any player under 6'8. you need players like him to help defend ball dominant stars (K.I, Harden, Westbrook) I want Frank guarding Irvin day one. Stop him and the Nets will go down. If Frank can consistently hit his open shots (Charlie Ward) and continue to play great defense, he should be a keeper.

i couldn't agree more about frank, either. i don't get how people on here don't understand that it's impossible to have a superstar at each position. everyone here gets down on guys like frank, who are highIQ, defense and team first, and don't need the ball to be effective. it's perplexing to me that people here can't grasp that concept.

i do think frank will have a lot less value if he's unable to hit an open 3 pointer. unless he turns into tony allen level of defense (isn't he only 20 or 21?), it will be hard to justify him sticking around.

but it'll be important to have guys like frank on a roster, especially if you want to WIN basketball games.

Beyond his defense Frank hasn’t shown he can do anything consistently yet. Unfortunately to keep a spot in this league you need to be able to contribute on at least a minimum level offensively.

[newyorker4ever]

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There’s gonna be a lot of close triple double games in this kid’s career

When was the last time we had a guy like that?

It's been a while. I just hope that fans understand that just like his first couple of SL games it's gonna take him some time to get used to playing in real NBA games against real NBA players that are much bigger, faster, stronger and overall quality of the types of players he was going against in SL, which probably 80% of will never play in the NBA. A lot of that stuff he was doing in those final 3 games won't work against NBA player, or at least it won't be even close to as easy to do against NBA players. We'll need patience with him and we'll need to count on Fiz to know how much to play the kid and not try to throw too much at him. Who knows maybe RJ is the kind of kid that feeds off of having too much thrown at him, but again that will be up to Fiz to figure out. Fiz has a tough job ahead for him with this team of so many new players.

[Knicksfan1992]

Trier is who I’m most intrigued in next year sans Mitch/RJ. He’s probably the Knicks 2nd best scorer. Can shoot the 3 and get to the line. He’s a modernized Monta.

I've been saying this about Trier all year... I was initially down on him. Thought he was a one dimensional guy who would be a big stats on a bad team guy but he's shown me more as a passer and started to be a more willing spot up guy as the season went on last year. He's a really good finisher at the rim and has a lot of shake as a ball handler. He's really comfortable and balanced on step backs and fallaways. His offensive bag is super varied. I'm very high on Trier. I don't know if he can bust out of that 6th man archetype but even if he's just that that's a hell of an undrafted find for the Knicks.

[dakomish23]

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There’s gonna be a lot of close triple double games in this kid’s career

When was the last time we had a guy like that?

It's been a while. I just hope that fans understand that just like his first couple of SL games it's gonna take him some time to get used to playing in real NBA games against real NBA players that are much bigger, faster, stronger and overall quality of the types of players he was going against in SL, which probably 80% of will never play in the NBA. A lot of that stuff he was doing in those final 3 games won't work against NBA player, or at least it won't be even close to as easy to do against NBA players. We'll need patience with him and we'll need to count on Fiz to know how much to play the kid and not try to throw too much at him. Who knows maybe RJ is the kind of kid that feeds off of having too much thrown at him, but again that will be up to Fiz to figure out. Fiz has a tough job ahead for him with this team of so many new players.

[Knicksfan1992]

The thing about Knox is as an offensive player his skills are close. He can get a shot off over anyone and when his mechanics are good, which they aren't always, he's near automatic. He's not much of a threat to drive yet due to his handle and strength and that may come. The strength almost certainly will.

Beyond that, I'm pretty low on Knox. His feel is just way off. He doesn't see the game quickly on the court which means he's going to have a big hill to climb with regards to his off ball movement, decision making with the ball, and team defensive skills. Related, the motor just isn't there. If you're not seeing the game it's hard to go all out.

KF1992 predicted he'll end up a 20+ ppg scorer the other night. I can't bet against that. The offensive skillset is there to where I easily see the path. Hell, he averaged 12 or so last year. The question I have is how far up that hill he'll be able to climb. If he's not at least passable to the team game he's not going to ever get the time to make his offensive skills worthwhile.



Mitch and Barrett are solid starters. All Star ceilings with a very reasonable path to get there. Totally different level of prospect.

I don't remember making that prediction lmao. I may have been drunk so forgive me if i did

However, I will say, I think there is a semi-realistic chance of Knox getting to 20, at some point, if everything breaks out right. I think his 99th percentile outcome is like Tobias Harris. I don't think he's as natural of a scorer as Tobias is/was but they share a similar build and skillset. But i'm also low on him for the reasons you stated.... he still does that floats in and out of the game thing which drives me nuts about guys sometimes but he's getting better at that. One thing I do love about Knox is that he does have a knack for getting to the line which will help him as he starts to become better at other things.

I will say I was impressed with his summer league though probably moreso than anyone else on the team... He made a lot more quicker decisions than I'm used to seeing from him and some better passes than just the "oh chit i'm not open let me just move it to the guy next to me" passes that were a staple last year. He was still mostly atrocious on defense but I did like how he played Zion early on kind of just trying to use his length to his advantage and laying off of him. He still needs to get stronger and he's not physically ready for the 4 yet and I know the Knicks probably feel that way as well..

I think ultimately it's going to come down to how good of a shooter is he actually... If he's going to float around 34-37% then he's probably just a microwave off the bench guy who tops out as like an 8th man on a good team. If he can get up to 38-40% on high volume and get to the line 4-5 times a game then with the right team around him he can be a starter on a good team IMO similar to Tobias. Knox I think is definitely our most interesting prospect from an evaluation standpoint because he's the only guy who you could tell me, in 5 years, he'd be out of the league/8-12th man on a team or a full-time starter and I would believe you either way. very crucial year development-wise for him coming up.

[br7knicks]

I like the improvements Knox has made and feel that with his work ethics I have no doubt that he will improve. On defense his ceiling is average, not worried because this day and age it's more of a team thing with all the switching, heck look at players like James Harden, Curry, K.I, K. Walker, Kevin Love, Blake Griffin, Westbrook, Paul, Tobias, Lillard, Wall, Beal. All have made the all star team, but none of them are known for their defense. On offense I can see him becoming Dirk like, keeps it very high making it hard to block. Dirk's first year he shot 20% from 3, 8.2ppg, 3.4 RPG. Knox was much better his first year. Tobias Harris at 26.1% from 3, 5ppg, 2.4 RBs while Knox had 12.8ppg, 34% from 3, and 4.5 RB.

People can be real tough on young players as if they expect them to be great day one, As far as Frank, he's the opposite as far as my expectations. Average offensive player who can run a team the way it's supposed to be ran, but defense that can put the clamps on any player under 6'8. you need players like him to help defend ball dominant stars (K.I, Harden, Westbrook) I want Frank guarding Irvin day one. Stop him and the Nets will go down. If Frank can consistently hit his open shots (Charlie Ward) and continue to play great defense, he should be a keeper.

i couldn't agree more about frank, either. i don't get how people on here don't understand that it's impossible to have a superstar at each position. everyone here gets down on guys like frank, who are highIQ, defense and team first, and don't need the ball to be effective. it's perplexing to me that people here can't grasp that concept.

i do think frank will have a lot less value if he's unable to hit an open 3 pointer. unless he turns into tony allen level of defense (isn't he only 20 or 21?), it will be hard to justify him sticking around.

but it'll be important to have guys like frank on a roster, especially if you want to WIN basketball games.

Beyond his defense Frank hasn’t shown he can do anything consistently yet. Unfortunately to keep a spot in this league you need to be able to contribute on at least a minimum level offensively.

to an extent, you're right. i'm not totally buying into frank because he hasn't consistently hit the 3. but he has the potential to be tony allen level of defense, and he was instrumental to the grizzlie's consistent playoff berths.

you need guys like frank. he just needs to provide a bit more.

[br7knicks]

watching raptors game. i really like iggy, but he needs to learn when to drive and when not to drive into 2/3 players

[br7knicks]

knox missed an easy box out...basic basketball still missing sometimes

[taj2133]

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[br7knicks]

barrett needs to keep his head up. missed some easy passes that would've been buckets

[br7knicks]

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good for him.


but **** him for going to BKN

[thebuzzardman]

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[taj2133]

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good for him.


but **** him for going to BKN

Honestly henery screwed himself over the nets already have 15 guaranteed contracts and he is going make less then hundred thousand dollars. Henery ellenson is going be in g- league all year so he phucked himself over with less money.