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OT: Hong Kong, China, United States and NBA

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KingWing
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Re: OT: Hong Kong, China, United States and NBA 

Post#481 » by KingWing » Sat Nov 30, 2019 3:31 pm

TimRobbins wrote:
KingWing wrote:
TimRobbins wrote:
ambiguous and heavily contested = not a sovereign nation. I'm really not getting your point. What is this debate about? facts are clear.


Not sure if it's early in the morning for you or what, but ambiguous and heavily contested mean it's not clear either way. You're saying it is clear one way. Can't have it both ways.


ambiguous and heavily contested = not sovereign. I don't understand how it can be interpreted any other way? In any case, how do these semantic games matter? The facts are clear.


Ambiguous means it's not clear whether it's sovereign or not.

You said Taiwan is not sovereign and then said it's ambiguous, meaning there's a possibility it's sovereign. When I asked which is it, you basically said both, which is impossible.
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Re: OT: Hong Kong, China, United States and NBA 

Post#482 » by TimRobbins » Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:49 pm

KingWing wrote:Ambiguous means it's not clear whether it's sovereign or not.

You said Taiwan is not sovereign and then said it's ambiguous, meaning there's a possibility it's sovereign. When I asked which is it, you basically said both, which is impossible.


Ill try to explain one final time and if it doesn't work, I'll let it go.

There are two conditions for a country to be considered "Sovereign":

1. It has to declare independence.
2. Majority of other countries need to recognize it's independence.

Neither of these terms apply in regard to Taiwan.

1. Taiwan has refused to declare independence from China and has kept it's status ambiguous.
2. Only few countries recognize Taiwan as a sovereign state.

Hence, ambiguous = not sovereign. Are we on the same page now?
KingWing
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Re: OT: Hong Kong, China, United States and NBA 

Post#483 » by KingWing » Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:35 pm

TimRobbins wrote:
KingWing wrote:Ambiguous means it's not clear whether it's sovereign or not.

You said Taiwan is not sovereign and then said it's ambiguous, meaning there's a possibility it's sovereign. When I asked which is it, you basically said both, which is impossible.


Ill try to explain one final time and if it doesn't work, I'll let it go.

There are two conditions for a country to be considered "Sovereign":

1. It has to declare independence.
2. Majority of other countries need to recognize it's independence.

Neither of these terms apply in regard to Taiwan.

1. Taiwan has refused to declare independence from China and has kept it's status ambiguous.
2. Only few countries recognize Taiwan as a sovereign state.

Hence, ambiguous = not sovereign. Are we on the same page now?


Those aren't conditions for a country to be considered sovereign. You're just making stuff up.

Taiwan is already an independent, sovereign nation. Just a few days ago, the likely vice president of Taiwan said it is "already an independent sovereign country". All China could do in response was send a strongly worded message. It has no control.

Taiwan has never been part of the People's Republic of China, and the PRC has no legitimate claim to it. Any aggression towards Taiwan would clearly be expansionist on the part of the PRC.
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Re: OT: Hong Kong, China, United States and NBA 

Post#484 » by TimRobbins » Sun Dec 1, 2019 1:07 pm

KingWing wrote:Taiwan has never been part of the People's Republic of China, and the PRC has no legitimate claim to it. Any aggression towards Taiwan would clearly be expansionist on the part of the PRC.


OK, I'll go with you. Has China tried to change the status quo regarding Taiwan? Has the Chinese premier made a statement that would suggest China is about to act militarily in regard to Taiwan?

Like I said before - I'm not seeing any evidence of Chinese military aggression. As such, I don't think China is a threat in terms of a major conquest campaign in Asia and I do not see any reason why the US should intervene in the HK issue at this point. What does the US gain by intervening?
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Re: OT: Hong Kong, China, United States and NBA 

Post#485 » by KingWing » Sun Dec 1, 2019 1:46 pm

TimRobbins wrote:
KingWing wrote:Taiwan has never been part of the People's Republic of China, and the PRC has no legitimate claim to it. Any aggression towards Taiwan would clearly be expansionist on the part of the PRC.


OK, I'll go with you. Has China tried to change the status quo regarding Taiwan? Has the Chinese premier made a statement that would suggest China is about to act militarily in regard to Taiwan?

Like I said before - I'm not seeing any evidence of Chinese military aggression. As such, I don't think China is a threat in terms of a major conquest campaign in Asia and I do not see any reason why the US should intervene in the HK issue at this point. What does the US gain by intervening?


China regularly bombarded Taiwan with artillery fire. More recently, it fired missiles toward Taiwan to send the message that voting for a particular candidate meant war. Later, China held live fire exercises near a Taiwanese island, and then even held a simulated amphibious assault.

Just this year, Xi said that Taiwan "must and will be" reunited with China, and warned Taiwan that it has the right to use force.
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Re: OT: Hong Kong, China, United States and NBA 

Post#486 » by TimRobbins » Sun Dec 1, 2019 3:29 pm

KingWing wrote:China regularly bombarded Taiwan with artillery fire. More recently, it fired missiles toward Taiwan to send the message that voting for a particular candidate meant war. Later, China held live fire exercises near a Taiwanese island, and then even held a simulated amphibious assault.

Just this year, Xi said that Taiwan "must and will be" reunited with China, and warned Taiwan that it has the right to use force.


Again, not seeing any changes to the status quo that has been in place for decades.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-46733174

This is a dispute that goes back 100 years and the current status quo has been there for decades. Absolutely nothing for the US to care about here.
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Re: OT: Hong Kong, China, United States and NBA 

Post#487 » by KingWing » Sun Dec 1, 2019 11:34 pm

TimRobbins wrote:
KingWing wrote:China regularly bombarded Taiwan with artillery fire. More recently, it fired missiles toward Taiwan to send the message that voting for a particular candidate meant war. Later, China held live fire exercises near a Taiwanese island, and then even held a simulated amphibious assault.

Just this year, Xi said that Taiwan "must and will be" reunited with China, and warned Taiwan that it has the right to use force.


Again, not seeing any changes to the status quo that has been in place for decades.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-46733174

This is a dispute that goes back 100 years and the current status quo has been there for decades. Absolutely nothing for the US to care about here.


If you can't see a near invasion that had people literally fleeing the island and was only prevented by third party intervention as a change in the status quo/expansionist behavior, then that's on you.
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Re: OT: Hong Kong, China, United States and NBA 

Post#488 » by TimRobbins » Mon Dec 2, 2019 7:56 am

KingWing wrote:
TimRobbins wrote:
KingWing wrote:China regularly bombarded Taiwan with artillery fire. More recently, it fired missiles toward Taiwan to send the message that voting for a particular candidate meant war. Later, China held live fire exercises near a Taiwanese island, and then even held a simulated amphibious assault.

Just this year, Xi said that Taiwan "must and will be" reunited with China, and warned Taiwan that it has the right to use force.


Again, not seeing any changes to the status quo that has been in place for decades.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-46733174

This is a dispute that goes back 100 years and the current status quo has been there for decades. Absolutely nothing for the US to care about here.


If you can't see a near invasion that had people literally fleeing the island and was only prevented by third party intervention as a change in the status quo/expansionist behavior, then that's on you.


This is exactly the status quo that has been going on for decades and it's really none of our business.
KingWing
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Re: OT: Hong Kong, China, United States and NBA 

Post#489 » by KingWing » Mon Dec 2, 2019 9:52 am

TimRobbins wrote:
KingWing wrote:
TimRobbins wrote:
Again, not seeing any changes to the status quo that has been in place for decades.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-46733174

This is a dispute that goes back 100 years and the current status quo has been there for decades. Absolutely nothing for the US to care about here.


If you can't see a near invasion that had people literally fleeing the island and was only prevented by third party intervention as a change in the status quo/expansionist behavior, then that's on you.


This is exactly the status quo that has been going on for decades and it's really none of our business.


China firing missiles at Taiwan and causing people to flee on flights out of the country is not the status quo.
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Re: OT: Hong Kong, China, United States and NBA 

Post#490 » by TimRobbins » Mon Dec 2, 2019 11:25 am

KingWing wrote:
TimRobbins wrote:
KingWing wrote:
If you can't see a near invasion that had people literally fleeing the island and was only prevented by third party intervention as a change in the status quo/expansionist behavior, then that's on you.


This is exactly the status quo that has been going on for decades and it's really none of our business.


China firing missiles at Taiwan and causing people to flee on flights out of the country is not the status quo.


What missiles are you talking about?
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Re: OT: Hong Kong, China, United States and NBA 

Post#491 » by KingWing » Mon Dec 2, 2019 11:43 am

TimRobbins wrote:
KingWing wrote:
TimRobbins wrote:
This is exactly the status quo that has been going on for decades and it's really none of our business.


China firing missiles at Taiwan and causing people to flee on flights out of the country is not the status quo.


What missiles are you talking about?


The missiles fired during the Taiwan Strait crisis. These were nuclear capable, something the Chinese media explicitly noted, and one passed nearly directly over the capital.
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Re: OT: Hong Kong, China, United States and NBA 

Post#492 » by matchman » Thu Dec 5, 2019 3:59 pm

Italy passes their version of HK freedom and democracy act.

Heard many western countries and Japan/Korea will follow.
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Re: OT: Hong Kong, China, United States and NBA 

Post#493 » by matchman » Wed Dec 25, 2019 9:42 am

Hong Kong still in chaos due to the ruling police misbehaviour during Christmas Eve.
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Re: OT: Hong Kong, China, United States and NBA 

Post#494 » by matchman » Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:17 am

https://www.hongkongfp.com/2020/01/12/2020-vision-post-80s-movement-water-hongkongers-eyes-now-wide-open/

A very good article showing why Hong Kong has turned from an apolitical city to become the frontend of anti-CCP. And the editor herself is a former activist who may be a step ahead of people by 2008, and being ridiculed by majority and now not in Hong Kong.

In an ultra “radical” move for those times, we began to do sit-ins at the end of demonstrations, urging people to not just go home and forget about the cause after the half a day they sacrificed every year for their nation. We began to climb over police barricades put up to prevent us from using streets which were clearly pubic space. We tried to break into the (former) Legco Building as a symbolic act to take back our city’s law-making body. At no point did we instigate violence with our direct action.

Embed from Getty Images

But pro-democracy politicians and even other activists started to separate themselves from us and even condemned our actions. “We must remain ‘peaceful, rational, and non-violent’,” their repeated claims made our simple actions such as fighting for free assembly in public spaces seem violent and irrational.


Fast-forward 10 years: Google “Hong Kong protests”, and what do we see? A city on fire. Young people leaving for demonstrations fully geared up with homemade wooden shields, spray-paint cans in backpacks, ready to dig up the paved streets to hurl a few bricks. Arrested protesters snatched back from the police’s very hands by other protesters who didn’t exactly accomplish the task by pleading. People are risking everything to be out on the streets. This is not the Hong Kong I remember.

“What has happened to this nice little city in the last 6 months?” I am asked whenever someone realises I am from the city. “Breaking shops and burning police cars – isn’t that going too far?”
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