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TheScout31 wrote:

MaseInYourFace wrote:

TheScout31 wrote:
Having him sit in the corner waiting for the ball to come to him is using him incredibly poorly. He's not a Bruce Bowen, or even Pat Beverly, type - he has actual PG skills.

Uhh no he doesn’t. Combo at best. I’ll concede he does have SOME PG skills but he’s a big leap away from being an nba point guard.

Yes, he really does. Ability to run PnR, get to his spots on offense/pick his spots, get others involved, actually running set plays = having legit PG skills. Guys like Bowen stand in the corner guys like Pat Bev don't run the PnR. Frank isn't someone who will break you down one on one, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have the skills I mentioned - he's proven it time and time again he does. The issue with him is aggressiveness shooting, not lacking PG skills.

Tell me - besides not breaking guys down one on one, what is he missing as a PG? I know the shooting / scoring aggressiveness is an issue, but he's been way more aggressive with France - which IMO is a good sign going forward.

Being able to run a P &R doesn’t make you a point guard. Any two players can run it. I wouldn’t call Frank a good P&R guy even because he’s not a threat right now. An effective P&R entails having perceived threats that’ll make a defense bite. He’s way more aggressive in France because they’ve been playing the same style for a long time and he’s familiar, and you have to take into account the international game is very different from NBA.

he aint ever gonna play point guard here so it don't really matter how good he is running the pnr or not (for the record though, his point guard skills are very basic). he should have spent all summer just putting up as many 3s as humanely possible. that might have gave him a chance to play.

MaseInYourFace wrote:

TheScout31 wrote:

MaseInYourFace wrote:
Uhh no he doesn’t. Combo at best. I’ll concede he does have SOME PG skills but he’s a big leap away from being an nba point guard.

Yes, he really does. Ability to run PnR, get to his spots on offense/pick his spots, get others involved, actually running set plays = having legit PG skills. Guys like Bowen stand in the corner guys like Pat Bev don't run the PnR. Frank isn't someone who will break you down one on one, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have the skills I mentioned - he's proven it time and time again he does. The issue with him is aggressiveness shooting, not lacking PG skills.

Tell me - besides not breaking guys down one on one, what is he missing as a PG? I know the shooting / scoring aggressiveness is an issue, but he's been way more aggressive with France - which IMO is a good sign going forward.

Being able to run a P &R doesn’t make you a point guard. Any two players can run it. I wouldn’t call Frank a good P&R guy even because he’s not a threat right now. An effective P&R entails having perceived threats that’ll make a defense bite. He’s way more aggressive in France because they’ve been playing the same style for a long time and he’s familiar, and you have to take into account the international game is very different from NBA.

What is different as well is the confidence that the French staff has on Frank ! Being able to work with the trust of your teamates and the staff is primordial ! One thing that he NEVER had with 2 different coaches and staffs

remi_222 wrote:

Fat Kat wrote:

TheScout31 wrote:
Yes, he really does. Ability to run PnR, get to his spots on offense/pick his spots, get others involved, actually running set plays = having legit PG skills. Guys like Bowen stand in the corner guys like Pat Bev don't run the PnR. Frank isn't someone who will break you down one on one, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have the skills I mentioned - he's proven it time and time again he does. The issue with him is aggressiveness shooting, not lacking PG skills.

Tell me - besides not breaking guys down one on one, what is he missing as a PG? I know the shooting / scoring aggressiveness is an issue, but he's been way more aggressive with France - which IMO is a good sign going forward.

His aggressiveness is inextricably tied to his “PG skills” IMO. Aggression is what keeps defenders honest. Without a respectable shot, passing lanes close up. If he doesn’t drive past his man when pressed, his handle will be tested constantly. The PnR is a staple, and Frank can run it, but he’ll have to have more in his toolbox to be an effective PG.

Beating your man one on one is always an effective way to initiate offense. I like the flashes that I’m seeing on the French team. Hopefully we’ll see more growth in preseason.

Im just a bit scared to see him very relaxed on the French team, and then come back to his old demons when pre season comes back !
Since it's all mental, he needs to break the frustration wall and just go for it ! Maybe he takes things with too much emotions and just needs to be less "intelectual" abt the aspect of the game.
He probably has a mental coach now, i'm curious to know if he has started a special mental job with somebody, but he never mentionned it i believe

I don’t think it’s only mental Frank has a hard time with some of the physical and athletic aspects of nba game as well. Wing or shooting guard is a easier transition for him though. NBA Point guard is a massive hill.

Frank is on a roster where none of the players on the court can play off of the ball. Each and everyone of them runs to the ball, then has to dribble themselves into a rhythm before shooting.

The sad thing is if/when Frank is traded people are going to ask, "How come he didn't do this on the Knicks?", and the answer is going to be quite simple: The coaches never instilled an offense of constant movement, but instead wanted to run isolation plays on every offensive possession.

For the people that think Fizdale is suddenly going to have an offense where there is constant ball and player movement, pay close attention to the stops he had before he got here. The coaches he worked under would run isolation play on every possession if they could.

god shammgod wrote:he aint ever gonna play point guard here so it don't really matter how good he is running the pnr or not (for the record though, his point guard skills are very basic). he should have spent all summer just putting up as many 3s as humanely possible. that might have gave him a chance to play.

I think for a SG/SF his playmaking skills are pretty good, but for a PG they're not great. He's a really good PnR passer, but he's a terrible PnR scorer which is what limits his ability to play out of the PnR. If he were even average at the scoring aspect, he'd be so much better

He shouldn't be just a pure 3+D guy, but that's the skillset he needs to work on. He should really try and emulate Batum, if he can do that, he'd be a perfect fit for the core

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

Frank was a French boy drafted into the NBA

He needed to grow up more than some other 18 year olds do

Not everybody gets to man up on our schedules

Frank will probably always be a system player. You put him in the right system and he'll produce. Will that happen here? The odds are low at this point in time

Flipside is he may be forced to be more selfish to survive which may be necessary to have an NBA career.

He's old enough now to either find his niche on the Knicks or go somewhere else he fits in better, but if his talents are not utilized here they will be by another NBA team

Frank can play PG/SG/SF. He can defend all 3 and then some. All he needs to do is up his shooting % and be more aggressive and he's a valuable player. Just a consistent 3 and he's a solid rotational player. Whether he can do it or not is the only argument.

Jay10 wrote:Frank is on a roster where none of the players on the court can play off of the ball. Each and everyone of them runs to the ball, then has to dribble themselves into a rhythm before shooting.

The sad thing is if/when Frank is traded people are going to ask, How come he didn't do this on the Knicks?", and the answer if going to be quite simple: The coaches never instilled and offensive of constant movement, but instead wanted to run isolation plays on every offensive possession.

For the people that think Fizdale is suddenly going to have an offense where there is constant ball and player movement, play close attention to the stops he had before he got here. The coaches he worked under would run isolation play on every possession if they could.

That used to be the roster.

Now, with RJ, Iggy, Morris and Randle, I'm not sure that's as accurate a statement. Plus, Dotson was active enough as well, and I don't think Knox is a lost cause - just that last year Fiz let the offense be a mess, for whatever reason.

I'm less familiar with Ellington, but don't think he'll play much. Not sure about Portis. Gibson seems to be an aware player who passes enough for a big, and I think is active enough moving around for a big. Even though Trier likes to ISO, I think he's actually a well rounded player - for a young player.

My point is, with the right coach, I think there are players on the team now who'll move the ball and themselves, IF they are coached that way.

Will Fiz coach them that way? Who knows. I'll say the answer is "Doubtful"

MaseInYourFace wrote:

remi_222 wrote:

Fat Kat wrote:
His aggressiveness is inextricably tied to his “PG skills” IMO. Aggression is what keeps defenders honest. Without a respectable shot, passing lanes close up. If he doesn’t drive past his man when pressed, his handle will be tested constantly. The PnR is a staple, and Frank can run it, but he’ll have to have more in his toolbox to be an effective PG.

Beating your man one on one is always an effective way to initiate offense. I like the flashes that I’m seeing on the French team. Hopefully we’ll see more growth in preseason.

Im just a bit scared to see him very relaxed on the French team, and then come back to his old demons when pre season comes back !
Since it's all mental, he needs to break the frustration wall and just go for it ! Maybe he takes things with too much emotions and just needs to be less "intelectual" abt the aspect of the game.
He probably has a mental coach now, i'm curious to know if he has started a special mental job with somebody, but he never mentionned it i believe

I don’t think it’s only mental Frank has a hard time with some of the physical and athletic aspects of nba game as well. Wing or shooting guard is a easier transition for him though. NBA Point guard is a massive hill.

You want a guy who has issues scoring to become a shooting guard? Alrighty then!

Frank does need to develop his 3 point shot, and change his mindset to be confident enough to take them. Once he does this, he'll find minutes on the court because all the other wings and points on the team don't have such issues.

Fat Kat wrote:

TheScout31 wrote:

MaseInYourFace wrote:
Uhh no he doesn’t. Combo at best. I’ll concede he does have SOME PG skills but he’s a big leap away from being an nba point guard.

Yes, he really does. Ability to run PnR, get to his spots on offense/pick his spots, get others involved, actually running set plays = having legit PG skills. Guys like Bowen stand in the corner guys like Pat Bev don't run the PnR. Frank isn't someone who will break you down one on one, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have the skills I mentioned - he's proven it time and time again he does. The issue with him is aggressiveness shooting, not lacking PG skills.

Tell me - besides not breaking guys down one on one, what is he missing as a PG? I know the shooting / scoring aggressiveness is an issue, but he's been way more aggressive with France - which IMO is a good sign going forward.

His aggressiveness is inextricably tied to his “PG skills” IMO. Aggression is what keeps defenders honest. Without a respectable shot, passing lanes close up. If he doesn’t drive past his man when pressed, his handle will be tested constantly. The PnR is a staple, and Frank can run it, but he’ll have to have more in his toolbox to be an effective PG.

Beating your man one on one is always an effective way to initiate offense. I like the flashes that I’m seeing on the French team. Hopefully we’ll see more growth in preseason.

This is very fair and I agree.

MaseInYourFace wrote:

TheScout31 wrote:

MaseInYourFace wrote:
Uhh no he doesn’t. Combo at best. I’ll concede he does have SOME PG skills but he’s a big leap away from being an nba point guard.

Yes, he really does. Ability to run PnR, get to his spots on offense/pick his spots, get others involved, actually running set plays = having legit PG skills. Guys like Bowen stand in the corner guys like Pat Bev don't run the PnR. Frank isn't someone who will break you down one on one, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have the skills I mentioned - he's proven it time and time again he does. The issue with him is aggressiveness shooting, not lacking PG skills.

Tell me - besides not breaking guys down one on one, what is he missing as a PG? I know the shooting / scoring aggressiveness is an issue, but he's been way more aggressive with France - which IMO is a good sign going forward.

Being able to run a P &R doesn’t make you a point guard. Any two players can run it. I wouldn’t call Frank a good P&R guy even because he’s not a threat right now. An effective P&R entails having perceived threats that’ll make a defense bite. He’s way more aggressive in France because they’ve been playing the same style for a long time and he’s familiar, and you have to take into account the international game is very different from NBA.

If more players could run a PnR they would. Having the ability to see all three levels and get to spots to shoot is something not "any two players" can do. C'mon...you know that. I know there's more to being a PG than just being able to use screens, which is why I said get to his spots/pick his spots (elbows, showing more burst/aggressiveness getting to the paint w/France so far), getting others involved, actually running set plays...and even controlling tempo - he's always been someone who push hard when he has numbers, kick the ball ahead to beat the defense in transition, or slow it down. Those are skills not every player has, but Frank does.

I know the international game is very different from the NBA, but it doesn't have to be. Look at what successful teams in the NBA do - they run plays. Last year the Knicks ran MAYBE ten plays - drag screens, double drag, double pindown, I think I saw hammer action a couple times, and HORNS (which TBH shouldn't even count considering every team going down to HS runs HORNS). France, and successful NBA teams, run actions BEFORE the screen / have set plays to get set looks. Is Frank more comfortable doing that than isoing / just plain 1-4/5 PnRs? Yes, but that shouldn't be held against him - if anything, it's something that should be held against the coach who isn't putting players in optimal positions to use their talents.

Also, Rondo would disagree with "An effective P&R entails having perceived threats that’ll make a defense bite" - teams know he has no interest in shooting the ball and he is still good running the PnR. Not saying Frank is Rondo...because he's not...but while having an aggressiveness shooting the ball absolutely helps (and I've said as much both on here since he was drafted, on Twitter, and to teams), it's not a be all end all to his impact on his game.

K-DOT wrote:

god shammgod wrote:he aint ever gonna play point guard here so it don't really matter how good he is running the pnr or not (for the record though, his point guard skills are very basic). he should have spent all summer just putting up as many 3s as humanely possible. that might have gave him a chance to play.

I think for a SG/SF his playmaking skills are pretty good, but for a PG they're not great. He's a really good PnR passer, but he's a terrible PnR scorer which is what limits his ability to play out of the PnR. If he were even average at the scoring aspect, he'd be so much better

He shouldn't be just a pure 3+D guy, but that's the skillset he needs to work on. He should really try and emulate Batum, if he can do that, he'd be a perfect fit for the core

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

This is also very fair and something I agree with.

thebuzzardman wrote:

Jay10 wrote:Frank is on a roster where none of the players on the court can play off of the ball. Each and everyone of them runs to the ball, then has to dribble themselves into a rhythm before shooting.

The sad thing is if/when Frank is traded people are going to ask, How come he didn't do this on the Knicks?", and the answer if going to be quite simple: The coaches never instilled and offensive of constant movement, but instead wanted to run isolation plays on every offensive possession.

For the people that think Fizdale is suddenly going to have an offense where there is constant ball and player movement, play close attention to the stops he had before he got here. The coaches he worked under would run isolation play on every possession if they could.

That used to be the roster.

Now, with RJ, Iggy, Morris and Randle, I'm not sure that's as accurate a statement. Plus, Dotson was active enough as well, and I don't think Knox is a lost cause - just that last year Fiz let the offense be a mess, for whatever reason.

I'm less familiar with Ellington, but don't think he'll play much. Not sure about Portis. Gibson seems to be an aware player who passes enough for a big, and I think is active enough moving around for a big. Even though Trier likes to ISO, I think he's actually a well rounded player - for a young player.

My point is, with the right coach, I think there are players on the team now who'll move the ball and themselves, IF they are coached that way.

Will Fiz coach them that way? Who knows. I'll say the answer is "Doubtful"

As always, great troll game.

MaseInYourFace wrote:

B8RcDeMktfxC wrote:

Nazrmohamed wrote:
I've talked many times about Frank needing to attempt more shots but assuming he gets his attempts up to 8 a game or more the scenario youd wanna see him at is SG with Barrett at the 3. Hes definitely got point guard skills it's just that they arent modern day PG skills or better yet hes not aggresive therefore hed not a modern day PG cuz that's the requirement. But the way I look at it DSJ should be playing very aggressively on offense and IMO should be unapologetic in his scoring mentality. Having a guy like Frank at SG in a way is like playing a 2 PG lineup with one being more measured and calming for an offense and the other being more the attacker. In any case Frank will need to hit shots to play but to me if theres a future for Frank its gonna be at SG. As far as Barrett goes, same concept really to Smith although I expect Smith to be more effective. I dont mind playing small on the perimeter as we will also run a very traditional front court

But that's just how I'd imagine Frank if he commits to taking 8 shots. Anything under that and I dont wanna talk about him no more.

I don't answer this type of post very much, simply because I have such a different way of looking at the game. But we obviously have different ideas about what can create a good (great) team. You want the PG to be DRose; I want the PG to be Magic or Penny or Nash or Jason Kidd. I want the PG to be "measured and calming for an offense". Let my SG be Kobe/MJ/DWade and "unapologetic in his scoring mentality".

It’s a different era right now. Plus the frank we’ve mostly seen in the nba is a far reality from those guys you mentioned. Penny and Magic were very aggressive scorers at times in their careers though...

Exactly. Funny thing is he is wrong. I actually love all the same types of PGs he does and love the same types of SGs as he does. Right now Frank doesn't fit either scenario. Frank's style of play is alot more Pablo Priggioni

Clyde_Style wrote:Frank was a French boy drafted into the NBA

He needed to grow up more than some other 18 year olds do

Not everybody gets to man up on our schedules

Frank will probably always be a system player. You put him in the right system and he'll produce. Will that happen here? The odds are low at this point in time

Flipside is he may be forced to be more selfish to survive which may be necessary to have an NBA career.

He's old enough now to either find his niche on the Knicks or go somewhere else he fits in better, but if his talents are not utilized here they will be by another NBA team

Watch Pop or Carlisle get his hands on Frank.

thebuzzardman wrote:

MaseInYourFace wrote:

remi_222 wrote:
Im just a bit scared to see him very relaxed on the French team, and then come back to his old demons when pre season comes back !
Since it's all mental, he needs to break the frustration wall and just go for it ! Maybe he takes things with too much emotions and just needs to be less "intelectual" abt the aspect of the game.
He probably has a mental coach now, i'm curious to know if he has started a special mental job with somebody, but he never mentionned it i believe

I don’t think it’s only mental Frank has a hard time with some of the physical and athletic aspects of nba game as well. Wing or shooting guard is a easier transition for him though. NBA Point guard is a massive hill.

You want a guy who has issues scoring to become a shooting guard? Alrighty then!

Andre Roberson?

Nazrmohamed wrote:

MaseInYourFace wrote:

B8RcDeMktfxC wrote:I don't answer this type of post very much, simply because I have such a different way of looking at the game. But we obviously have different ideas about what can create a good (great) team. You want the PG to be DRose; I want the PG to be Magic or Penny or Nash or Jason Kidd. I want the PG to be "measured and calming for an offense". Let my SG be Kobe/MJ/DWade and "unapologetic in his scoring mentality".

It’s a different era right now. Plus the frank we’ve mostly seen in the nba is a far reality from those guys you mentioned. Penny and Magic were very aggressive scorers at times in their careers though...

Exactly. Funny thing is he is wrong. I actually love all the same types of PGs he does and love the same types of SGs as he does. Right now Frank doesn't fit either scenario. Frank's style of play is alot more Pablo Priggioni

i had the same exact thought. there's a lot of similarities.

ChaosHamster wrote:

thebuzzardman wrote:

Jay10 wrote:Frank is on a roster where none of the players on the court can play off of the ball. Each and everyone of them runs to the ball, then has to dribble themselves into a rhythm before shooting.

The sad thing is if/when Frank is traded people are going to ask, How come he didn't do this on the Knicks?", and the answer if going to be quite simple: The coaches never instilled and offensive of constant movement, but instead wanted to run isolation plays on every offensive possession.

For the people that think Fizdale is suddenly going to have an offense where there is constant ball and player movement, play close attention to the stops he had before he got here. The coaches he worked under would run isolation play on every possession if they could.

That used to be the roster.

Now, with RJ, Iggy, Morris and Randle, I'm not sure that's as accurate a statement. Plus, Dotson was active enough as well, and I don't think Knox is a lost cause - just that last year Fiz let the offense be a mess, for whatever reason.

I'm less familiar with Ellington, but don't think he'll play much. Not sure about Portis. Gibson seems to be an aware player who passes enough for a big, and I think is active enough moving around for a big. Even though Trier likes to ISO, I think he's actually a well rounded player - for a young player.

My point is, with the right coach, I think there are players on the team now who'll move the ball and themselves, IF they are coached that way.

Will Fiz coach them that way? Who knows. I'll say the answer is "Doubtful"

As always, great troll game.

Iggy and Morris should and are decent at catch and shoot. What they really all have is that they are active players moving without the ball.

I mean, it's not necessarily a lineup I'd want for a drive and kick PG, but there are ways to have movement outside of catch and shoot off the move. I'd say the Knicks can field a decent enough shooting lineup as well, though maybe not among the starters - in a bench scenario.

Not making them to be more than they are, but the team as currently constituted has more players than last year willing to move and more people who are at least "decent" at shooting. The key is finding the combinations, which I don't necessarily have faith in Fiz to do.

Also, even IF the team had good catch and shoot guys or players who cut, it wouldn't matter. Frank isn't getting any playing time on the Knicks anyway, unless about 4 significant injuries happen.

Yuri Vaultin wrote:

thebuzzardman wrote:

MaseInYourFace wrote:
I don’t think it’s only mental Frank has a hard time with some of the physical and athletic aspects of nba game as well. Wing or shooting guard is a easier transition for him though. NBA Point guard is a massive hill.

You want a guy who has issues scoring to become a shooting guard? Alrighty then!

Andre Roberson?

Maybe. I'd still have him guard the other team's PG.

Frank stats for today game against serbia in 15 minutes, 3 points, 2 rebounds, and 1 assist on 1/3 shooting. The problem with frank he can have 2 good games offensively back to back but he doesn't go over 2 games of solid offense. I think frank is at peace being a defensive player then a offensive player but he has to realize both side of court matter. Frank average for the 6 friendly games is 5.3 points on 40 percent shooting, 26 percents three point percentage, 64 percent free throw, 2 rebound, and 2 assist.

19-20 Preparation France 7 15.1 53.3 26.7 40.0 64.3 0.3 1.7 2.0 2.7 0.9 0.6 0.1 5.3 7.1
http://www.teamfrancebasket.com/player/44-frank-ntilikina/career
http://www.teamfrancebasket.com/game/416787