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Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason?

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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#61 » by moocow007 » Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:12 pm

My take is that it's not the worse moves they could have made by any stretch but it's also hardly the best IMHO.

From a pure what they did with their cap POV...

Am I upset? Mildy but not really. Am I excited? Somewhat yes, but not really either.

Clearly they didn't go into complete stupid mode like most Knicks regimes in recent memory would have done but is that really saying all that much. Yes, peeing on the bed is better than pooping on the bed, but is peeing on the bed in and of itself good? Depends right? If you've been struggling with not pooping in bed and now is "only" just peeing in bed, that's a significant improvement and positive.

Yes, the notion of "keeping cap flexibility open while also competing" (aka the Knicks post free agency period mantra) seems smart...at least on first scan and on paper. Heck, it's better than throwing 4 years and $100 million at a guy like Nikola Vucevic (especially when the market had already pretty much dried up for guys like him) right?

But everything still comes down to one thing. 'What is the plan?'

Is it to rebuild like they should have 10 years ago? Or is the plan to set yourself up for free agency? It can't be both. Why? As we've seen again and again, big name free agents are simply not going to want to come to NY (which automatically places a noose around their neck and a target on their back) without some proof that someone else of similar stature and responsibility will be at least sharing the noose and target. If you are going to be rebuilding the so-called 'right way' then you are not going to be looking to use your assets (capspace, picks, young talent) to acquire the type of players that will get you the other similar top tier talent in free agency. Instead you'd be holding tightly onto them and gearing your game, style, focus on teaching them. That usually means losing. And we've seen losing doesn't attract big name free agents.

Why can't you do both? Cause you have to give up something in some area. If doing both at the same time was that easy, everyone would be doing it.

As far as not signing any of the 'other' (not as big) name free agents and instead piling on lesser 1 and done (for the most part) vets? Again, if I'm a big star free agent, I'd be more interested in joining a team if that team at least already had a proven Robin. A Jimmy Butler type/level free agent (not saying him exactly) ALONG WITH the young players you had already accumulated and draft could potentially put you in a better position to land that single top tier free agent. You don't need cap space for 2 max players to entice a top tier FA. you need a Robin and a team with the assets that can get you another Robin. Or that can spin their current Robin and their assets to get a Superman to go with the Batman you're looking to sign as a free agent.

Using all the capspace that quickly to sign these guys to shorter deals that are big dollar? What is the plan for doing that? Is it to just try to win 40 games and entice a big name free agent to come (basically copy the Nets)? Is it on the notion that you can flip them before the deadline for more assets? If so, players value is only based on what have you done for me lately. I doesn't matter what the player did in 2018-2019 if he's not getting enough minutes in 2019-2020. And I'm not sure that the Knicks have enough minutes to go around. And if the goal is to win 40 games or what not, you would need everyone to be positive, focused on on the right page right? I'm not sure that vets that basically could very well be playing for their next meal ticket will be ok if their minutes for auditioning themselves to the next team isn't on par to what they think they deserve. And yet that's very possible here in NY for at least some of them.

Also I don't agree that they needed to jump on the players they did sign and eating up all their capspace for the rest of the summer and THIS UPCOMING SEASON. Up until the trade deadline, if they had keps some healthy cap space, it could actually have been HUGE in being able to absorb a contract and land a premium asset by facilitating in trades.

If this was Jerry West based or some such FO then I'd be a lot more comfortable believing that they know what they're doing. But Mills has been the front office version of coaching staff Herb Williams. He's been the one constant presence in all the stupid moves the front office has made. And Scott Perry? Him not being as bad as Scott Layden or Isiah Thomas or Phil Jackson is about the only thing he's proven. That's not exactly a glowing confidence builder there.

Yes as Knick fans we are eternal optimists and every year we want to hope things will better. We'll convince ourselves every year that bad moves are ok moves, ok moves are good moves, good moves and great moves, etc. Then get dissapointed when things go into the crapper. The best I can give is to be cautiously optimistic but I'd be more surprised if this FO ends up with something good than if they just followed the trend of the past 20 years.
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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#62 » by GreatWhiteStiff » Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:59 am

"With both Randle and Davis on the floor, the Pellies were in the 49th percentile defensively which is average."

This doesn't impress me much. #shaniatwain

So he needs to be on the floor with a world class defender at all times, in order to have a slightly above average defensive team? Seems more like a damning with very faint praise situation to me.
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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#63 » by DrCoach » Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:47 am

seren wrote:The Knicks franchise loves to overpay big man. This has been our standard for the past two decades. I remember posters getting hyped by Curry/Randolph backcourt back in the day. Years later, we signed Chandler to a large contract when we had zero healthy guards on the roster. That turned out okay when Amare was out most of the next season and guards played above expectations but we couldn’t resist going after Bargnani because our franchise loves to have as many overpaid one dimensional big as they can get. It is not Perry. It is the franchise. I am surprised we didn’t get two more PFs this summer.



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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#64 » by Thugger HBC » Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:54 am

The Knicks spent their cap, what they didn't do was hogtie themselves with bad spending. I don't see how that is a bad thing, especially now that we know.

I know when the players were announced as agreeing to terms, I immediately was pissed because I thought these guys were all signing 3-4 year deals at those prices. But 1 year? 2 Years? Easier to digest, way easier.

It's rather clear what the plan was....build with youth, and be competitive, while keeping future assets and flexibility on deck.

It was executed pretty much how they stated. Now we just wait to see the results.
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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#65 » by robillionaire » Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:24 pm

seren wrote:The Knicks franchise loves to overpay big man. This has been our standard for the past two decades. I remember posters getting hyped by Curry/Randolph backcourt back in the day. Years later, we signed Chandler to a large contract when we had zero healthy guards on the roster. That turned out okay when Amare was out most of the next season and guards played above expectations but we couldn’t resist going after Bargnani because our franchise loves to have as many overpaid one dimensional big as they can get. It is not Perry. It is the franchise. I am surprised we didn’t get two more PFs this summer.


This is historically true however I don't think we overpaid for any big men, randle was a good signing and the one year deals are one year deals and the reason we even had all the cap space was because they didn't want to overpay for a big man in KP
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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#66 » by DaT WaVeY RiCaN » Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:23 pm

robillionaire wrote:
seren wrote:The Knicks franchise loves to overpay big man. This has been our standard for the past two decades. I remember posters getting hyped by Curry/Randolph backcourt back in the day. Years later, we signed Chandler to a large contract when we had zero healthy guards on the roster. That turned out okay when Amare was out most of the next season and guards played above expectations but we couldn’t resist going after Bargnani because our franchise loves to have as many overpaid one dimensional big as they can get. It is not Perry. It is the franchise. I am surprised we didn’t get two more PFs this summer.


This is historically true however I don't think we overpaid for any big men, randle was a good signing and the one year deals are one year deals and the reason we even had all the cap space was because they didn't want to overpay for a big man in KP

Exactly
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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#67 » by TBri1974 » Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:01 am

TBri1974 wrote:Each signing makes sense in a void. The contracts are good - except for the selfish player playing for a contract syndrome that could eat away our team - but there is no question that come December we will need some addition-by-subtraction type trades. Let's assume that we can only give playing time to two players at each position (excluding project players who are here for long term development). We will need to decide between:
Center: Mitch and Portis and Gibson (This position is finally fine, Mitch backed up by Portis with Gibson as veteran presence. Randle coulda played here also, which to me means we should not have signed Portis.
PF: Randle - Morris - Portis - Gibson (sure we can take some of the issue away by playing Portis at C, but realistically any of these guys not named Morris could play at Center. Woulda been better without Portis).
SF: Knox - Barrett - Morris - Bullock -Dotson - Frank (Okay, I see Morris as a PF, Dotson as a 2G and Frank as a PG so realistically we're alright here; I like the Bullock signing, but we probably didn't need him given the current players who can cover this spot)
2G: Barrett - Dotson - Ellington - Smith - Frank (realistically I don't think Ellington plays much, if he does he is taking time from Barret and Dotson, neither of whom should be sidelined)
PG: Frank - Smith - Payton (If you don't like Frank this signing is probably fine, I do).

If it were me, I would be playing Frank a lot and would not have signed Ellington, Bullock or Portis. I think the team works like this:
Mitch-Randle-Gibson
Randle-Morris-Gibson
Knox-Barrett-Frank
Dotson-Barrett-Smith
Smith-Payton-Frank


Sorry, I left out Trier - whom I actually think has allstar potential. Another reason to not have signed Ellington.
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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#68 » by DaT WaVeY RiCaN » Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:05 am

TBri1974 wrote:
TBri1974 wrote:Each signing makes sense in a void. The contracts are good - except for the selfish player playing for a contract syndrome that could eat away our team - but there is no question that come December we will need some addition-by-subtraction type trades. Let's assume that we can only give playing time to two players at each position (excluding project players who are here for long term development). We will need to decide between:
Center: Mitch and Portis and Gibson (This position is finally fine, Mitch backed up by Portis with Gibson as veteran presence. Randle coulda played here also, which to me means we should not have signed Portis.
PF: Randle - Morris - Portis - Gibson (sure we can take some of the issue away by playing Portis at C, but realistically any of these guys not named Morris could play at Center. Woulda been better without Portis).
SF: Knox - Barrett - Morris - Bullock -Dotson - Frank (Okay, I see Morris as a PF, Dotson as a 2G and Frank as a PG so realistically we're alright here; I like the Bullock signing, but we probably didn't need him given the current players who can cover this spot)
2G: Barrett - Dotson - Ellington - Smith - Frank (realistically I don't think Ellington plays much, if he does he is taking time from Barret and Dotson, neither of whom should be sidelined)
PG: Frank - Smith - Payton (If you don't like Frank this signing is probably fine, I do).

If it were me, I would be playing Frank a lot and would not have signed Ellington, Bullock or Portis. I think the team works like this:
Mitch-Randle-Gibson
Randle-Morris-Gibson
Knox-Barrett-Frank
Dotson-Barrett-Smith
Smith-Payton-Frank


Sorry, I left out Trier - whom I actually think has allstar potential. Another reason to not have signed Ellington.

We have a vet or experienced player at every position. Thats great for the youth
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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#69 » by cgmw » Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:43 am

moocow007 wrote:My take is that it's not the worse moves they could have made by any stretch but it's also hardly the best IMHO.

From a pure what they did with their cap POV...

Am I upset? Mildy but not really. Am I excited? Somewhat yes, but not really either.

Clearly they didn't go into complete stupid mode like most Knicks regimes in recent memory would have done but is that really saying all that much. Yes, peeing on the bed is better than pooping on the bed, but is peeing on the bed in and of itself good? Depends right? If you've been struggling with not pooping in bed and now is "only" just peeing in bed, that's a significant improvement and positive.

Yes, the notion of "keeping cap flexibility open while also competing" (aka the Knicks post free agency period mantra) seems smart...at least on first scan and on paper. Heck, it's better than throwing 4 years and $100 million at a guy like Nikola Vucevic (especially when the market had already pretty much dried up for guys like him) right?

But everything still comes down to one thing. 'What is the plan?'

Is it to rebuild like they should have 10 years ago? Or is the plan to set yourself up for free agency? It can't be both. Why? As we've seen again and again, big name free agents are simply not going to want to come to NY (which automatically places a noose around their neck and a target on their back) without some proof that someone else of similar stature and responsibility will be at least sharing the noose and target. If you are going to be rebuilding the so-called 'right way' then you are not going to be looking to use your assets (capspace, picks, young talent) to acquire the type of players that will get you the other similar top tier talent in free agency. Instead you'd be holding tightly onto them and gearing your game, style, focus on teaching them. That usually means losing. And we've seen losing doesn't attract big name free agents.

Why can't you do both? Cause you have to give up something in some area. If doing both at the same time was that easy, everyone would be doing it.

As far as not signing any of the 'other' (not as big) name free agents and instead piling on lesser 1 and done (for the most part) vets? Again, if I'm a big star free agent, I'd be more interested in joining a team if that team at least already had a proven Robin. A Jimmy Butler type/level free agent (not saying him exactly) ALONG WITH the young players you had already accumulated and draft could potentially put you in a better position to land that single top tier free agent. You don't need cap space for 2 max players to entice a top tier FA. you need a Robin and a team with the assets that can get you another Robin. Or that can spin their current Robin and their assets to get a Superman to go with the Batman you're looking to sign as a free agent.

Using all the capspace that quickly to sign these guys to shorter deals that are big dollar? What is the plan for doing that? Is it to just try to win 40 games and entice a big name free agent to come (basically copy the Nets)? Is it on the notion that you can flip them before the deadline for more assets? If so, players value is only based on what have you done for me lately. I doesn't matter what the player did in 2018-2019 if he's not getting enough minutes in 2019-2020. And I'm not sure that the Knicks have enough minutes to go around. And if the goal is to win 40 games or what not, you would need everyone to be positive, focused on on the right page right? I'm not sure that vets that basically could very well be playing for their next meal ticket will be ok if their minutes for auditioning themselves to the next team isn't on par to what they think they deserve. And yet that's very possible here in NY for at least some of them.

Also I don't agree that they needed to jump on the players they did sign and eating up all their capspace for the rest of the summer and THIS UPCOMING SEASON. Up until the trade deadline, if they had keps some healthy cap space, it could actually have been HUGE in being able to absorb a contract and land a premium asset by facilitating in trades.

If this was Jerry West based or some such FO then I'd be a lot more comfortable believing that they know what they're doing. But Mills has been the front office version of coaching staff Herb Williams. He's been the one constant presence in all the stupid moves the front office has made. And Scott Perry? Him not being as bad as Scott Layden or Isiah Thomas or Phil Jackson is about the only thing he's proven. That's not exactly a glowing confidence builder there.

Yes as Knick fans we are eternal optimists and every year we want to hope things will better. We'll convince ourselves every year that bad moves are ok moves, ok moves are good moves, good moves and great moves, etc. Then get dissapointed when things go into the crapper. The best I can give is to be cautiously optimistic but I'd be more surprised if this FO ends up with something good than if they just followed the trend of the past 20 years.


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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#70 » by Clyde_Style » Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:55 am

Thugger HBC wrote:The Knicks spent their cap, what they didn't do was hogtie themselves with bad spending. I don't see how that is a bad thing, especially now that we know.

I know when the players were announced as agreeing to terms, I immediately was pissed because I thought these guys were all signing 3-4 year deals at those prices. But 1 year? 2 Years? Easier to digest, way easier.

It's rather clear what the plan was....build with youth, and be competitive, while keeping future assets and flexibility on deck.

It was executed pretty much how they stated. Now we just wait to see the results.


A very good indicator of how non-destructive these signings are (which is a high compliment) is how truly feeble the arguments have been about how destructive this off-season was to the franchise, particularly early in free agency when the predictions of this season being a complete implosion sprouted like little mushrooms that then wilted when exposed to the light of actual logic. This off-season was professionally executed by a seasoned NBA hand. That means, as you say, now we see how it plays out during the season and that does not call for any of us being a visionary who can predict the true outcome. Nobody knows. Anyone who pretends they do is basically FOS.
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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#71 » by malik959 » Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:58 am

moocow007 wrote:My take is that it's not the worse moves they could have made by any stretch but it's also hardly the best IMHO.

From a pure what they did with their cap POV...

Am I upset? Mildy but not really. Am I excited? Somewhat yes, but not really either.

Clearly they didn't go into complete stupid mode like most Knicks regimes in recent memory would have done but is that really saying all that much. Yes, peeing on the bed is better than pooping on the bed, but is peeing on the bed in and of itself good? Depends right? If you've been struggling with not pooping in bed and now is "only" just peeing in bed, that's a significant improvement and positive.

Yes, the notion of "keeping cap flexibility open while also competing" (aka the Knicks post free agency period mantra) seems smart...at least on first scan and on paper. Heck, it's better than throwing 4 years and $100 million at a guy like Nikola Vucevic (especially when the market had already pretty much dried up for guys like him) right?

But everything still comes down to one thing. 'What is the plan?'

Is it to rebuild like they should have 10 years ago? Or is the plan to set yourself up for free agency? It can't be both. Why? As we've seen again and again, big name free agents are simply not going to want to come to NY (which automatically places a noose around their neck and a target on their back) without some proof that someone else of similar stature and responsibility will be at least sharing the noose and target. If you are going to be rebuilding the so-called 'right way' then you are not going to be looking to use your assets (capspace, picks, young talent) to acquire the type of players that will get you the other similar top tier talent in free agency. Instead you'd be holding tightly onto them and gearing your game, style, focus on teaching them. That usually means losing. And we've seen losing doesn't attract big name free agents.

Why can't you do both? Cause you have to give up something in some area. If doing both at the same time was that easy, everyone would be doing it.

As far as not signing any of the 'other' (not as big) name free agents and instead piling on lesser 1 and done (for the most part) vets? Again, if I'm a big star free agent, I'd be more interested in joining a team if that team at least already had a proven Robin. A Jimmy Butler type/level free agent (not saying him exactly) ALONG WITH the young players you had already accumulated and draft could potentially put you in a better position to land that single top tier free agent. You don't need cap space for 2 max players to entice a top tier FA. you need a Robin and a team with the assets that can get you another Robin. Or that can spin their current Robin and their assets to get a Superman to go with the Batman you're looking to sign as a free agent.

Using all the capspace that quickly to sign these guys to shorter deals that are big dollar? What is the plan for doing that? Is it to just try to win 40 games and entice a big name free agent to come (basically copy the Nets)? Is it on the notion that you can flip them before the deadline for more assets? If so, players value is only based on what have you done for me lately. I doesn't matter what the player did in 2018-2019 if he's not getting enough minutes in 2019-2020. And I'm not sure that the Knicks have enough minutes to go around. And if the goal is to win 40 games or what not, you would need everyone to be positive, focused on on the right page right? I'm not sure that vets that basically could very well be playing for their next meal ticket will be ok if their minutes for auditioning themselves to the next team isn't on par to what they think they deserve. And yet that's very possible here in NY for at least some of them.

Also I don't agree that they needed to jump on the players they did sign and eating up all their capspace for the rest of the summer and THIS UPCOMING SEASON. Up until the trade deadline, if they had keps some healthy cap space, it could actually have been HUGE in being able to absorb a contract and land a premium asset by facilitating in trades.

If this was Jerry West based or some such FO then I'd be a lot more comfortable believing that they know what they're doing. But Mills has been the front office version of coaching staff Herb Williams. He's been the one constant presence in all the stupid moves the front office has made. And Scott Perry? Him not being as bad as Scott Layden or Isiah Thomas or Phil Jackson is about the only thing he's proven. That's not exactly a glowing confidence builder there.

Yes as Knick fans we are eternal optimists and every year we want to hope things will better. We'll convince ourselves every year that bad moves are ok moves, ok moves are good moves, good moves and great moves, etc. Then get dissapointed when things go into the crapper. The best I can give is to be cautiously optimistic but I'd be more surprised if this FO ends up with something good than if they just followed the trend of the past 20 years.


Here's my take on our free agency summer:

When we were playing that Draft/Free agent game I always said, at that time, Durant was the only one really worth a major contract (Pre injury), Once Durant got injured nobody was worth it for us. Our FO refused to over pay for players that were not 1A or 1B type of players. I myself wanted either Kemba and Randle or D'Angelo or Randle

Durant - Injured, refuse to pay 170 mil on a player who may never get back to an all star level

Kyrie - Has been problematic on his last two teams and also is very injury prone. The only way I would have accepted him was with a healthy Durant.

Kawhi - Everybody knew where he was going LA or LA, we had no chance.

Kemba Walker - I must say I would have loved to have him, I've always been a fan, but I'm didn't feel that point guard was a must at his price. Would not have been upset with signing him

Butler - Not a fan, He would have been an over pay at $150 mil

Tobias - 170 Mil? Are you serious? Hard pass!!!!

Randle - Love his offense, Strongly felt that he would at lease get 120 mil, but we got him for half of that. Niiiiice

D'Angelo - Same as Kemba, wouldn't mind, but we have a future guard so we weren't in dying need

Malcolm Brogdon: Nice young kid, didn't need

Rozier - Happy with DSJ, did not need.

KP - LMAO yeah good riddance

Nikola - We have Mitch, don't need.

Al Horford - Stick to the youth movement

Barnes - would have been an over pay, did not need.

Management made good by not paying for a player that may become a has been, All though he has a 10% chance in coming back healthy, Didn't over pay or give major contracts to any point guards and decided to put faith in our own (not mad at all), We stayed young and continue our youth movement , did not trade them away , nor did we trade away any of our draft picks, and gave away no long term contracts. I myself was not expecting Durant, even when he was healthy. After the MJ, Grant Hill, Weber, Kobe, Than LBJ I was not expecting Durant or Kawhi.

So we made good with no crazy contracts and stuck with the plan that was brought to us months ago. To me we made good with Randle and Payton then lucked up with Morris. Portis is also a nice pick up because he's a big that can shoot and stretch the floor. Our moves were very underrated, not jaw dropping, but the way I see it we upgraded every position from last year, and we pretty much have a vet at every position that can help our youth grow. What I like most is the competition at the 1 Payton vs DSJ (scoring vs defender) and Knox vs. Morris. Overall I like our team, am I a little disappointed about not getting major free agents? No because I didn't have high hopes for them. The Knicks did what they needed, got lost cost, experienced, hard nosed players to help our youth. I'm happy!
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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#72 » by TBri1974 » Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:54 pm

malik959 wrote:
moocow007 wrote:My take is that it's not the worse moves they could have made by any stretch but it's also hardly the best IMHO.

Yes as Knick fans we are eternal optimists and every year we want to hope things will better. We'll convince ourselves every year that bad moves are ok moves, ok moves are good moves, good moves and great moves, etc. Then get dissapointed when things go into the crapper. The best I can give is to be cautiously optimistic but I'd be more surprised if this FO ends up with something good than if they just followed the trend of the past 20 years.


Here's my take on our free agency summer:

When we were playing that Draft/Free agent game I always said, at that time, Durant was the only one really worth a major contract (Pre injury), Once Durant got injured nobody was worth it for us. Our FO refused to over pay for players that were not 1A or 1B type of players. I myself wanted either Kemba and Randle or D'Angelo or Randle

Durant - Injured, refuse to pay 170 mil on a player who may never get back to an all star level

Kyrie - Has been problematic on his last two teams and also is very injury prone. The only way I would have accepted him was with a healthy Durant.

Kawhi - Everybody knew where he was going LA or LA, we had no chance.

Kemba Walker - I must say I would have loved to have him, I've always been a fan, but I'm didn't feel that point guard was a must at his price. Would not have been upset with signing him

Butler - Not a fan, He would have been an over pay at $150 mil

Tobias - 170 Mil? Are you serious? Hard pass!!!!

Randle - Love his offense, Strongly felt that he would at lease get 120 mil, but we got him for half of that. Niiiiice

D'Angelo - Same as Kemba, wouldn't mind, but we have a future guard so we weren't in dying need

Malcolm Brogdon: Nice young kid, didn't need

Rozier - Happy with DSJ, did not need.

KP - LMAO yeah good riddance

Nikola - We have Mitch, don't need.

Al Horford - Stick to the youth movement

Barnes - would have been an over pay, did not need.

Management made good by not paying for a player that may become a has been, All though he has a 10% chance in coming back healthy, Didn't over pay or give major contracts to any point guards and decided to put faith in our own (not mad at all), We stayed young and continue our youth movement , did not trade them away , nor did we trade away any of our draft picks, and gave away no long term contracts. I myself was not expecting Durant, even when he was healthy. After the MJ, Grant Hill, Weber, Kobe, Than LBJ I was not expecting Durant or Kawhi.

So we made good with no crazy contracts and stuck with the plan that was brought to us months ago. To me we made good with Randle and Payton then lucked up with Morris. Portis is also a nice pick up because he's a big that can shoot and stretch the floor. Our moves were very underrated, not jaw dropping, but the way I see it we upgraded every position from last year, and we pretty much have a vet at every position that can help our youth grow. What I like most is the competition at the 1 Payton vs DSJ (scoring vs defender) and Knox vs. Morris. Overall I like our team, am I a little disappointed about not getting major free agents? No because I didn't have high hopes for them. The Knicks did what they needed, got lost cost, experienced, hard nosed players to help our youth. I'm happy!


I mostly agree with the above except for a few things:

1: KP would be perfect on this team. He needed to go, but lets not be silly.

2: Brogan and/or D'Angelo could have been interesting pick ups.

3: It is not only a question of not missing on major catches, but on whether bringing in this many players creates a logjam where we will need to trade players (addition by subtraction). No reason we shouldn't have kept the max space open to absorb players into it.
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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#73 » by DaT WaVeY RiCaN » Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:02 pm

TBri1974 wrote:
malik959 wrote:
moocow007 wrote:My take is that it's not the worse moves they could have made by any stretch but it's also hardly the best IMHO.

Yes as Knick fans we are eternal optimists and every year we want to hope things will better. We'll convince ourselves every year that bad moves are ok moves, ok moves are good moves, good moves and great moves, etc. Then get dissapointed when things go into the crapper. The best I can give is to be cautiously optimistic but I'd be more surprised if this FO ends up with something good than if they just followed the trend of the past 20 years.


Here's my take on our free agency summer:

When we were playing that Draft/Free agent game I always said, at that time, Durant was the only one really worth a major contract (Pre injury), Once Durant got injured nobody was worth it for us. Our FO refused to over pay for players that were not 1A or 1B type of players. I myself wanted either Kemba and Randle or D'Angelo or Randle

Durant - Injured, refuse to pay 170 mil on a player who may never get back to an all star level

Kyrie - Has been problematic on his last two teams and also is very injury prone. The only way I would have accepted him was with a healthy Durant.

Kawhi - Everybody knew where he was going LA or LA, we had no chance.

Kemba Walker - I must say I would have loved to have him, I've always been a fan, but I'm didn't feel that point guard was a must at his price. Would not have been upset with signing him

Butler - Not a fan, He would have been an over pay at $150 mil

Tobias - 170 Mil? Are you serious? Hard pass!!!!

Randle - Love his offense, Strongly felt that he would at lease get 120 mil, but we got him for half of that. Niiiiice

D'Angelo - Same as Kemba, wouldn't mind, but we have a future guard so we weren't in dying need

Malcolm Brogdon: Nice young kid, didn't need

Rozier - Happy with DSJ, did not need.

KP - LMAO yeah good riddance

Nikola - We have Mitch, don't need.

Al Horford - Stick to the youth movement

Barnes - would have been an over pay, did not need.

Management made good by not paying for a player that may become a has been, All though he has a 10% chance in coming back healthy, Didn't over pay or give major contracts to any point guards and decided to put faith in our own (not mad at all), We stayed young and continue our youth movement , did not trade them away , nor did we trade away any of our draft picks, and gave away no long term contracts. I myself was not expecting Durant, even when he was healthy. After the MJ, Grant Hill, Weber, Kobe, Than LBJ I was not expecting Durant or Kawhi.

So we made good with no crazy contracts and stuck with the plan that was brought to us months ago. To me we made good with Randle and Payton then lucked up with Morris. Portis is also a nice pick up because he's a big that can shoot and stretch the floor. Our moves were very underrated, not jaw dropping, but the way I see it we upgraded every position from last year, and we pretty much have a vet at every position that can help our youth grow. What I like most is the competition at the 1 Payton vs DSJ (scoring vs defender) and Knox vs. Morris. Overall I like our team, am I a little disappointed about not getting major free agents? No because I didn't have high hopes for them. The Knicks did what they needed, got lost cost, experienced, hard nosed players to help our youth. I'm happy!


I mostly agree with the above except for a few things:

1: KP would be perfect on this team. He needed to go, but lets not be silly.

2: Brogan and/or D'Angelo could have been interesting pick ups.

3: It is not only a question of not missing on major catches, but on whether bringing in this many players creates a logjam where we will need to trade players (addition by subtraction). No reason we shouldn't have kept the max space open to absorb players into it.

4 years for Dlo or Malcom wouldve been to big of an commitment at their price
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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#74 » by malik959 » Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:45 pm

TBri1974 wrote:
malik959 wrote:
moocow007 wrote:My take is that it's not the worse moves they could have made by any stretch but it's also hardly the best IMHO.

Yes as Knick fans we are eternal optimists and every year we want to hope things will better. We'll convince ourselves every year that bad moves are ok moves, ok moves are good moves, good moves and great moves, etc. Then get dissapointed when things go into the crapper. The best I can give is to be cautiously optimistic but I'd be more surprised if this FO ends up with something good than if they just followed the trend of the past 20 years.


Here's my take on our free agency summer:

When we were playing that Draft/Free agent game I always said, at that time, Durant was the only one really worth a major contract (Pre injury), Once Durant got injured nobody was worth it for us. Our FO refused to over pay for players that were not 1A or 1B type of players. I myself wanted either Kemba and Randle or D'Angelo or Randle

Durant - Injured, refuse to pay 170 mil on a player who may never get back to an all star level

Kyrie - Has been problematic on his last two teams and also is very injury prone. The only way I would have accepted him was with a healthy Durant.

Kawhi - Everybody knew where he was going LA or LA, we had no chance.

Kemba Walker - I must say I would have loved to have him, I've always been a fan, but I'm didn't feel that point guard was a must at his price. Would not have been upset with signing him

Butler - Not a fan, He would have been an over pay at $150 mil

Tobias - 170 Mil? Are you serious? Hard pass!!!!

Randle - Love his offense, Strongly felt that he would at lease get 120 mil, but we got him for half of that. Niiiiice

D'Angelo - Same as Kemba, wouldn't mind, but we have a future guard so we weren't in dying need

Malcolm Brogdon: Nice young kid, didn't need

Rozier - Happy with DSJ, did not need.

KP - LMAO yeah good riddance

Nikola - We have Mitch, don't need.

Al Horford - Stick to the youth movement

Barnes - would have been an over pay, did not need.

Management made good by not paying for a player that may become a has been, All though he has a 10% chance in coming back healthy, Didn't over pay or give major contracts to any point guards and decided to put faith in our own (not mad at all), We stayed young and continue our youth movement , did not trade them away , nor did we trade away any of our draft picks, and gave away no long term contracts. I myself was not expecting Durant, even when he was healthy. After the MJ, Grant Hill, Weber, Kobe, Than LBJ I was not expecting Durant or Kawhi.

So we made good with no crazy contracts and stuck with the plan that was brought to us months ago. To me we made good with Randle and Payton then lucked up with Morris. Portis is also a nice pick up because he's a big that can shoot and stretch the floor. Our moves were very underrated, not jaw dropping, but the way I see it we upgraded every position from last year, and we pretty much have a vet at every position that can help our youth grow. What I like most is the competition at the 1 Payton vs DSJ (scoring vs defender) and Knox vs. Morris. Overall I like our team, am I a little disappointed about not getting major free agents? No because I didn't have high hopes for them. The Knicks did what they needed, got lost cost, experienced, hard nosed players to help our youth. I'm happy!


I mostly agree with the above except for a few things:

1: KP would be perfect on this team. He needed to go, but lets not be silly.

2: Brogan and/or D'Angelo could have been interesting pick ups.

3: It is not only a question of not missing on major catches, but on whether bringing in this many players creates a logjam where we will need to trade players (addition by subtraction). No reason we shouldn't have kept the max space open to absorb players into it.


I totally agree, as far as Brogan, I would have loved to have him no dough, But at 80 mil I'd rather bring along our own because I feel that DSJ can be better. Like Trier Malcolm came into this league as a senior (22yo), he's what 26 now? I'm not going to down him because I like him as a player, but I just don't feel that choosing him over DSJ is really needed.

KP didn't want to be here so he can kick rocks. 1) your a rookie trying to make demands, 2) You have never been healthy, 3) You feel that women are just objects you can do whatever you want with them, 3) you disrespected the organization, and the fans by skipping out on our exit meetings. I have no respect for him, he himself was never disrespected on this team. I'll say it again, Kick Rocks.
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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#75 » by Yuri Vaultin » Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:58 pm

The moves were solid. I think every new contract but Randle's has a team option for next year. This means come trade deadline, these guys are all assets that can be acquired by other teams to help compete, or, can be treated as expiring deals for teams looking to clear cap space.
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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#76 » by malik959 » Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:37 pm

Yuri Vaultin wrote:The moves were solid. I think every new contract but Randle's has a team option for next year. This means come trade deadline, these guys are all assets that can be acquired by other teams to help compete, or, can be treated as expiring deals for teams looking to clear cap space.
We have team options on all of our players and nobody has a long term contract, that's what makes this summer one of our best. No dumb moves, but because SAS said the Knicks did terrible everyone else is like "wtf are the Knicks doing?" "Knicks gon knick," because we didn't want a 1 footed Durant. We'll see how that goes in 2 years when he tries to fulfill his 170 mil contract. KD's own surgeon stated that he will NEVER be the same, his own surgeon? Bright red flags!! "Dead giveaway!"

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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#77 » by Yuri Vaultin » Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:31 pm

malik959 wrote:
Yuri Vaultin wrote:The moves were solid. I think every new contract but Randle's has a team option for next year. This means come trade deadline, these guys are all assets that can be acquired by other teams to help compete, or, can be treated as expiring deals for teams looking to clear cap space.
We have team options on all of our players and nobody has a long term contract, that's what makes this summer one of our best. No dumb moves, but because SAS said the Knicks did terrible everyone else is like "wtf are the Knicks doing?" "Knicks gon knick," because we didn't want a 1 footed Durant. We'll see how that goes in 2 years when he tries to fulfill his 170 mil contract. KD's own surgeon stated that he will NEVER be the same, his own surgeon? Bright red flags!! "Dead giveaway!"

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SAS is an idiot. I don't know why his opinion has any currency. And yeah, paying Durant that money is a terrible move. Outside of Dominique Wilkins in '92, Achilles injuries are a death sentence in basketball.
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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#78 » by Ray Williams » Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:34 pm

The depth on this team reminds me of Rick Barry’s championship Warrior team. I have a real good feeling we are going to surprise a lot of people this year.
Marcus Morris is going to play a huge role.
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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#79 » by Sark » Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:32 pm

robillionaire wrote:
seren wrote:The Knicks franchise loves to overpay big man. This has been our standard for the past two decades. I remember posters getting hyped by Curry/Randolph backcourt back in the day. Years later, we signed Chandler to a large contract when we had zero healthy guards on the roster. That turned out okay when Amare was out most of the next season and guards played above expectations but we couldn’t resist going after Bargnani because our franchise loves to have as many overpaid one dimensional big as they can get. It is not Perry. It is the franchise. I am surprised we didn’t get two more PFs this summer.


This is historically true however I don't think we overpaid for any big men, randle was a good signing and the one year deals are one year deals and the reason we even had all the cap space was because they didn't want to overpay for a big man in KP



I literally posted on the previous page that Randle's 3 year value is $49m, and we paid him $62m. So either you think the math is wrong, in which case I'd love to see the math that shows him worth more, or you have a different definition of "overpay".
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Re: Was there a method to the Knicks madness this offseason? 

Post#80 » by Are We Ther Yet » Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:06 pm

Sark wrote:
robillionaire wrote:
seren wrote:The Knicks franchise loves to overpay big man. This has been our standard for the past two decades. I remember posters getting hyped by Curry/Randolph backcourt back in the day. Years later, we signed Chandler to a large contract when we had zero healthy guards on the roster. That turned out okay when Amare was out most of the next season and guards played above expectations but we couldn’t resist going after Bargnani because our franchise loves to have as many overpaid one dimensional big as they can get. It is not Perry. It is the franchise. I am surprised we didn’t get two more PFs this summer.


This is historically true however I don't think we overpaid for any big men, randle was a good signing and the one year deals are one year deals and the reason we even had all the cap space was because they didn't want to overpay for a big man in KP



I literally posted on the previous page that Randle's 3 year value is $49m, and we paid him $62m. So either you think the math is wrong, in which case I'd love to see the math that shows him worth more, or you have a different definition of "overpay".


He's young and you have to hope he is still going to improve. He's just getting to his"prime" years. You can't use his development years stats as the value benchmark unless you think that's his ceiling.
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