All Things Fiz: Past, Present, Future

[god shammgod]

That is the case year to year isn't it?

Only maybe 4-5 teams have a legit shot at a title, and pretty much all of them have a top 5 guy.

Everyone else is just trying to find one of those guys in the draft, or make themselves attractive to one of those guys.

Yes and how many of those teams knew they had that guy before the age of 25? A lot of teams think they are getting a top 5 player in the draft and end up with a bust meanwhile somebody people wouldn't even expect becomes a top 5 player. It happens frequently. Sure you have guys like Lebron and KD but Kawhi? Curry? Harden? Giannis? It took years for some of those guys, so what I'm saying is you really don't know right away if you have a top 5 player 5-10 years down the road. You also should never stop trying to build a good team in pursuit of a top 5 player. Some of those guys I mentioned evolved into top 5 players while their teams competed in mediocrity but once the big winning happened that's when they rose to that top 5 status.

That is why you prioritize the development of kids on their rookie deals over chasing wins with vets. You have to know what you have.

All those guys made the jump during their rookie deals.

they're obviously copying the nets to me. the nets put together a team that because they were able to make the playoffs in a horrible conference were able to convince free agents, who want to come to a big market mostly anyway, that they had good enough role players here because of the playoff birth. that's what they're trying to do over these next 2 years.

if you ask me, it's mostly an illusion. most of that team is gone. i saw a breakdown that showed that most of the guys who were positive sum players are no longer there and the young guys who are lauded really didn't help them win much. but nobody really cares it seems. perception is reality. so the knicks are gonna use these vets for the same thing.

[god shammgod]

That is the case year to year isn't it?

Only maybe 4-5 teams have a legit shot at a title, and pretty much all of them have a top 5 guy.

Everyone else is just trying to find one of those guys in the draft, or make themselves attractive to one of those guys.

yup. i mean, if you're able to put the 6th & 7th best player together or something like the 6th, 10th & 14th you might be able to compete for a title too but you mostly compete with a top 5 player and appropriate help.

and to be fair, the list isn't fixed every year either. like right now, embiid is not a top 5 player but he could be next year and someone like lebron could fall out of it. you never know exactly. giannis might have not really been top 5 the year before last but now he is. curry was a couple years ago and he's not now.

True, but you get the sense which direction players are trending in their first 4 years.

for sure. i think you can tell even earlier who definitely won't be. why do you think i don't care about knox already. if everything,and i mean everything, goes right....he's tobias harris at best.

[HEZI]

That is the case year to year isn't it?

Only maybe 4-5 teams have a legit shot at a title, and pretty much all of them have a top 5 guy.

Everyone else is just trying to find one of those guys in the draft, or make themselves attractive to one of those guys.

Yes and how many of those teams knew they had that guy before the age of 25? A lot of teams think they are getting a top 5 player in the draft and end up with a bust meanwhile somebody people wouldn't even expect becomes a top 5 player. It happens frequently. Sure you have guys like Lebron and KD but Kawhi? Curry? Harden? Giannis? It took years for some of those guys, so what I'm saying is you really don't know right away if you have a top 5 player 5-10 years down the road. You also should never stop trying to build a good team in pursuit of a top 5 player. Some of those guys I mentioned evolved into top 5 players while their teams competed in mediocrity but once the big winning happened that's when they rose to that top 5 status.

That is why you prioritize the development of kids on their rookie deals over chasing wins with vets. You have to know what you have.

All those guys made the jump during their rookie deals.

This whole development of the kids is such an overused statement on here. Development happens in so many ways, everybody just assumes that development happens with being the main focus of a team and getting a bunch of playing time. That simply isn't true. A lot of young prospects are given plenty of minutes only to never amount to much in the league. Development starts with individuals, guys that are hungry and strive to be great are the guys that separate themselves from the pack. No coach is going to hold a player back if he is destined to be a great, it just doesn't happen. And if you really want to know what you have, you will know it one way or another. A top 5 talent is going to emerge whether amongst his peers or amongst vets, no coach or teammate can hold a top 5 player back if he truly is that. You don't have to force anybody into anything.

[GONYK]

Yes and how many of those teams knew they had that guy before the age of 25? A lot of teams think they are getting a top 5 player in the draft and end up with a bust meanwhile somebody people wouldn't even expect becomes a top 5 player. It happens frequently. Sure you have guys like Lebron and KD but Kawhi? Curry? Harden? Giannis? It took years for some of those guys, so what I'm saying is you really don't know right away if you have a top 5 player 5-10 years down the road. You also should never stop trying to build a good team in pursuit of a top 5 player. Some of those guys I mentioned evolved into top 5 players while their teams competed in mediocrity but once the big winning happened that's when they rose to that top 5 status.

That is why you prioritize the development of kids on their rookie deals over chasing wins with vets. You have to know what you have.

All those guys made the jump during their rookie deals.

they're obviously copying the nets to me. the nets put together a team that because they were able to make the playoffs in a horrible conference were able to convince free agents, who want to come to a big market mostly anyway, that they had good enough role players here because of the playoff birth. that's what they're trying to do over these next 2 years.

if you ask me, it's mostly an illusion. most of that team is gone. i saw a breakdown that showed that most of the guys who were positive sum players are no longer there and the young guys who are lauded really didn't help them win much. but nobody really cares it seems. perception is reality. so the knicks are gonna use these vets for the same thing.

Bingo, and this is my concern. It's fool's gold as a longterm strategy unless you actually land the big fish (and he has 2 working legs)

[Jalen Bluntson]

Yes they were trash. I mean I get it, it can get a bit stale and boring watching the regular good teams all the time and it's a bit refreshing watching the youngsters but at the same time lets not get that confused with a good team. The Kings and Nuggets were both young teams but clearly one team was on a whole different level than the other. IMO, the Nuggets were way more fun to watch than the Kings.

Yea but you gotta look at it in perspective bro. The Nuggets were winning 30-40 games not too long ago also. This was their first year making the playoffs since 2013. It takes a while to rebuild.

Of course it takes a while to rebuild, that's not the point though. The point is you can have successful and unsuccessful rebuilds, it can go both ways. Just because you are rebuilding doesn't mean you will find success. When is the last time the Suns made the playoffs? They have been rebuilding since the Dantoni era, it's been quite some time for them.

Kings, they haven't had a good product since Bibby, CWebb, Peja and Vlade and those guys, it's been a long time for them too. They haven't built shyt since then.

Those 2 teams have also had so much turnover/drama from owners to HCs...GMs...rosters...just like the Knicks. Which is the only rebuild that matters.

Do we trust Dolan not to meddle?(no) Is Perry a good GM?(TBD) Is Fiz the right HC?(TBD) Do we have any cornerstone players yet?(TBD)

In order to successfully rebuild...you need continuity from the top. We are heading into year 3 of this rebuild. I'm excited to see what we have so far. Losing KP still bothers me but...maybe it turns out to be a blessing in disguise.

[GONYK]

Yes and how many of those teams knew they had that guy before the age of 25? A lot of teams think they are getting a top 5 player in the draft and end up with a bust meanwhile somebody people wouldn't even expect becomes a top 5 player. It happens frequently. Sure you have guys like Lebron and KD but Kawhi? Curry? Harden? Giannis? It took years for some of those guys, so what I'm saying is you really don't know right away if you have a top 5 player 5-10 years down the road. You also should never stop trying to build a good team in pursuit of a top 5 player. Some of those guys I mentioned evolved into top 5 players while their teams competed in mediocrity but once the big winning happened that's when they rose to that top 5 status.

That is why you prioritize the development of kids on their rookie deals over chasing wins with vets. You have to know what you have.

All those guys made the jump during their rookie deals.

This whole development of the kids is such an overused statement on here. Development happens in so many ways, everybody just assumes that development happens with being the main focus of a team and getting a bunch of playing time. That simply isn't true. A lot of young prospects are given plenty of minutes only to never amount to much in the league. Development starts with individuals, guys that are hungry and strive to be great are the guys that separate themselves from the pack. No coach is going to hold a player back if he is destined to be a great, it just doesn't happen. And if you really want to know what you have, you will know it one way or another. A top 5 talent is going to emerge whether amongst his peers or amongst vets, no coach or teammate can hold a top 5 player back if he truly is that. You don't have to force anybody into anything.

When you draft a kid at 19, the calculus changes.

And if you don't have a player who emerges as top 5 potential while on a rookie deal, you don't really need to pay vets for wins. You should be heading back to the draft for another lotto ticket with a chance to draft a top 5 player.

Growth is either organic or it's counterfeit, IMO.

[HEZI]

Yea but you gotta look at it in perspective bro. The Nuggets were winning 30-40 games not too long ago also. This was their first year making the playoffs since 2013. It takes a while to rebuild.

Of course it takes a while to rebuild, that's not the point though. The point is you can have successful and unsuccessful rebuilds, it can go both ways. Just because you are rebuilding doesn't mean you will find success. When is the last time the Suns made the playoffs? They have been rebuilding since the Dantoni era, it's been quite some time for them.

Kings, they haven't had a good product since Bibby, CWebb, Peja and Vlade and those guys, it's been a long time for them too. They haven't built shyt since then.

And Denver hasn't been sh*t since Melo left them. This was their first good year.

I agree that there's unsuccessful and successful rebuilds. I mean I'm not sure what else you want me to say. All you can do is try to nail draft picks, try not to have your cap space tied up to mediocre players, and have a solid coach/front office. Ultimately, luck plays a big part in draft picks also. Like Zion can be a massive bust and RJ can be the next Penny/Kobe.

Denver actually won like 57 games and made the playoffs with guys like Gallo and Chandler right after they traded Melo. Then they had a few bad seasons but even as recently as two years ago they had won like 46 games which is pretty solid but missed the playoffs by like 1 game. They have shown some consistency over the last 20 years, more than the Kings that's for sure. Suns, I'm not sure how long their drought is going to last but we will see what they can build from this group.

[god shammgod]

That is why you prioritize the development of kids on their rookie deals over chasing wins with vets. You have to know what you have.

All those guys made the jump during their rookie deals.

they're obviously copying the nets to me. the nets put together a team that because they were able to make the playoffs in a horrible conference were able to convince free agents, who want to come to a big market mostly anyway, that they had good enough role players here because of the playoff birth. that's what they're trying to do over these next 2 years.

if you ask me, it's mostly an illusion. most of that team is gone. i saw a breakdown that showed that most of the guys who were positive sum players are no longer there and the young guys who are lauded really didn't help them win much. but nobody really cares it seems. perception is reality. so the knicks are gonna use these vets for the same thing.

Bingo, and this is my concern. It's fool's gold as a longterm strategy unless you actually land the big fish (and he has 2 working legs)

you have 2 chances of this working

1 - lebron gets hurt again, or it just seems age has caught up to him, and ad decides not to stay there
2 - giannis, who doesn't seem like he wants to leave, can't get to the finals in the next 2 years and the knicks look like they might have better help (and also his agent convinces him how much more he'll make off the court in new york)

the odds aren't all that great

edit - i forgot kawhi only signed a 2+1. maybe you can convince him to be the king of ny if the clippers aren't rolling like they thought.

i'm not really a big fan of this plan either, i rather get 2 more high draft picks. but it did work for the nets and clippers.

[HEZI]

That is why you prioritize the development of kids on their rookie deals over chasing wins with vets. You have to know what you have.

All those guys made the jump during their rookie deals.

This whole development of the kids is such an overused statement on here. Development happens in so many ways, everybody just assumes that development happens with being the main focus of a team and getting a bunch of playing time. That simply isn't true. A lot of young prospects are given plenty of minutes only to never amount to much in the league. Development starts with individuals, guys that are hungry and strive to be great are the guys that separate themselves from the pack. No coach is going to hold a player back if he is destined to be a great, it just doesn't happen. And if you really want to know what you have, you will know it one way or another. A top 5 talent is going to emerge whether amongst his peers or amongst vets, no coach or teammate can hold a top 5 player back if he truly is that. You don't have to force anybody into anything.

When you draft a kid at 19, the calculus changes.

And if you don't have a player who emerges as top 5 potential while on a rookie deal, you don't really need to pay vets for wins. You should be heading back to the draft for another lotto ticket with a chance to draft a top 5 player.

Growth is either organic or it's counterfeit, IMO.

Did the Raptors draft Kawhi? No, but they built a nucleus over the years that was eventually able to land them Kawhi, plug him into what they already had and they won a title. Clippers didn't have any top 5 player but added youth to their vets and now also landed Kawhi and PG13 and have a group that is instant title contender. Houston traded for James Harden and he evolved into a top 5 player and they have been a contender for a couple years now. Lakers? They pretty much dumped all their youth for two guys that are top 10 players and could be competing for a title this year.

Basically the defending champs from last year and the top contenders for next year didn't follow your blueprint yet they have top 10 talent and are contending. The one thing all those teams have in common though, they never stopped chasing wins. They searched for ways to keep winning and eventually it got them to where they are now.

[Zenzibar]

We got quite a bit of young talent that will still need court time. If the cap is set at training camp, you run the risk of having another Frank situation with another player or even Frank again. No need to see that on a rebuilding team.

The young guys should get automatic priority.

Young should play, we all agree, but not at the expense of starting strong. By 20-30 games in, we'll know alot about the team's playoff potential.

To me, this version of the Knicks should be no less than 3rd in the Atlantic by game 30. In order to be here, the youth will have to account for this successful turn-around anyway.
Therefore, building the youth's confidence by winning games should be the new mantra around here.

Playoffs is a nice accomplishment, but should not be the goal unless the youth were clear majority of the contributing factor. Development should be and while I dont think court time is the only way to develop, I dont want to see that time being taken away while a first or second year player glued to the bench for a someone who really has no real on court role.

I dont know where the team will be by game 30 or so, but I dont know all our division teams made the playoffs last season. I respect the optimism, but I dont see this group battling that deep in wins at that point.

I expect them to be last in the division as they have for some time now.

Respect your outlook as well, I just disagree at your Atlantic division outlook. Is Toronto the same team without Kwahii? Or the Nets super thin bench better than the Knicks? The 76ers' don't impress me as much as others and will have to make some moves at the deadline to make any noise.

Development of the youth won't be an issue trust me. The practices alone will build the young group's talent. Guys like Trier, Frank, DSJ and Iggy are going to be nice and get lots of playing time. Of all the youth, RJ is probably going to struggle the most and while we want him to develop while playing, no way does he get my nod over Frank.

The battle for the 3 spot has to be real, Knox has to clearly be better than Morris in order to start. However, Knox will get lots of minutes any way.

Where do you see a problem?

[GONYK]

This whole development of the kids is such an overused statement on here. Development happens in so many ways, everybody just assumes that development happens with being the main focus of a team and getting a bunch of playing time. That simply isn't true. A lot of young prospects are given plenty of minutes only to never amount to much in the league. Development starts with individuals, guys that are hungry and strive to be great are the guys that separate themselves from the pack. No coach is going to hold a player back if he is destined to be a great, it just doesn't happen. And if you really want to know what you have, you will know it one way or another. A top 5 talent is going to emerge whether amongst his peers or amongst vets, no coach or teammate can hold a top 5 player back if he truly is that. You don't have to force anybody into anything.

When you draft a kid at 19, the calculus changes.

And if you don't have a player who emerges as top 5 potential while on a rookie deal, you don't really need to pay vets for wins. You should be heading back to the draft for another lotto ticket with a chance to draft a top 5 player.

Growth is either organic or it's counterfeit, IMO.

Did the Raptors draft Kawhi? No, but they built a nucleus over the years that was eventually able to land them Kawhi, plug him into what they already had and they won a title. Clippers didn't have any top 5 player but added youth to their vets and now also landed Kawhi and PG13 and have a group that is instant title contender. Houston traded for James Harden and he evolved into a top 5 player and they have been a contender for a couple years now. Lakers? They pretty much dumped all their youth for two guys that are top 10 players and could be competing for a title this year.

Basically the defending champs from last year and the top contenders for next year didn't follow your blueprint yet they have top 10 talent and are contending. The one thing all those teams have in common though, they never stopped chasing wins. They searched for ways to keep winning and eventually it got them to where they are now.

The only common denominator between all the teams you listed is that they weren't worth talking about until they got a top 5 player.

The Raptors traded for Kawhi because Pop wanted to continue to compete. Kawhi didn't want to be there before or after the season. They caught lightning a bottle for sure, but neither Popovich nor Leonard cared about all the meaningless wins the Raptors secured before making the trade.

The Clippers didn't have much youth, and the ones they did have played significant time. They had an inside track on Kawhi for non-basketball reasons and sure as hell took advantage of it, but they gave their kids a shot. Their winning certainly made them attractive, no doubt, but the young guys didn't get shelved to make that happen.

The way the other teams you mentioned got those top 5 players (Lebron, AD, Harden) had literally nothing to do with how many cheap wins they chased with vets before securing those players.

[HEZI]

Yes and how many of those teams knew they had that guy before the age of 25? A lot of teams think they are getting a top 5 player in the draft and end up with a bust meanwhile somebody people wouldn't even expect becomes a top 5 player. It happens frequently. Sure you have guys like Lebron and KD but Kawhi? Curry? Harden? Giannis? It took years for some of those guys, so what I'm saying is you really don't know right away if you have a top 5 player 5-10 years down the road. You also should never stop trying to build a good team in pursuit of a top 5 player. Some of those guys I mentioned evolved into top 5 players while their teams competed in mediocrity but once the big winning happened that's when they rose to that top 5 status.

That is why you prioritize the development of kids on their rookie deals over chasing wins with vets. You have to know what you have.

All those guys made the jump during their rookie deals.

they're obviously copying the nets to me. the nets put together a team that because they were able to make the playoffs in a horrible conference were able to convince free agents, who want to come to a big market mostly anyway, that they had good enough role players here because of the playoff birth. that's what they're trying to do over these next 2 years.

if you ask me, it's mostly an illusion. most of that team is gone. i saw a breakdown that showed that most of the guys who were positive sum players are no longer there and the young guys who are lauded really didn't help them win much. but nobody really cares it seems. perception is reality. so the knicks are gonna use these vets for the same thing.

Wait, what? You were the leader of the "Kyrie and KD are coming and you will like it" campaign, so what's all this copying the Nets nonsense?

Also, the major difference is Nets were forking over top picks to Boston over the last few years whereas the Knicks had opportunities to add a bunch of young pieces. The young cores are different. It would be a whole different story if Nets had guys like Brown, Tatum, Sexton that they added vet pieces to.

[god shammgod]

That is why you prioritize the development of kids on their rookie deals over chasing wins with vets. You have to know what you have.

All those guys made the jump during their rookie deals.

they're obviously copying the nets to me. the nets put together a team that because they were able to make the playoffs in a horrible conference were able to convince free agents, who want to come to a big market mostly anyway, that they had good enough role players here because of the playoff birth. that's what they're trying to do over these next 2 years.

if you ask me, it's mostly an illusion. most of that team is gone. i saw a breakdown that showed that most of the guys who were positive sum players are no longer there and the young guys who are lauded really didn't help them win much. but nobody really cares it seems. perception is reality. so the knicks are gonna use these vets for the same thing.

Wait, what? You were the leader of the "Kyrie and KD are coming and you will like it" campaign, so what's all this copying the Nets nonsense? :lol:

Also, the major difference is Nets were forking over top picks to Boston over the last few years whereas the Knicks had opportunities to add a bunch of young pieces. The young cores are different. It would be a whole different story if Nets had guys like Brown, Tatum, Sexton that they added vet pieces to.

i don't see the correlation. what does one thing have to do with the other ?

p.s. once kd got hurt i didn't really want him

[iLLmatic860]

That is why you prioritize the development of kids on their rookie deals over chasing wins with vets. You have to know what you have.

All those guys made the jump during their rookie deals.

they're obviously copying the nets to me. the nets put together a team that because they were able to make the playoffs in a horrible conference were able to convince free agents, who want to come to a big market mostly anyway, that they had good enough role players here because of the playoff birth. that's what they're trying to do over these next 2 years.

if you ask me, it's mostly an illusion. most of that team is gone. i saw a breakdown that showed that most of the guys who were positive sum players are no longer there and the young guys who are lauded really didn't help them win much. but nobody really cares it seems. perception is reality. so the knicks are gonna use these vets for the same thing.

Wait, what? You were the leader of the "Kyrie and KD are coming and you will like it" campaign, so what's all this copying the Nets nonsense?

Also, the major difference is Nets were forking over top picks to Boston over the last few years whereas the Knicks had opportunities to add a bunch of young pieces. The young cores are different. It would be a whole different story if Nets had guys like Brown, Tatum, Sexton that they added vet pieces to.

Yeah I would say we are more similar to the Young Celtics core and have assets. Nets didnt get recognized until after free agency so I doubt we are copying their formula.

Rj is our Tatum
Dsj is our Rozier
Knox is our Brown
Frank is our Smart
Randle is our Hayward (pre injury)

All different playstyles of course. But I think they have similar ceilings.

[HEZI]

When you draft a kid at 19, the calculus changes.

And if you don't have a player who emerges as top 5 potential while on a rookie deal, you don't really need to pay vets for wins. You should be heading back to the draft for another lotto ticket with a chance to draft a top 5 player.

Growth is either organic or it's counterfeit, IMO.

Did the Raptors draft Kawhi? No, but they built a nucleus over the years that was eventually able to land them Kawhi, plug him into what they already had and they won a title. Clippers didn't have any top 5 player but added youth to their vets and now also landed Kawhi and PG13 and have a group that is instant title contender. Houston traded for James Harden and he evolved into a top 5 player and they have been a contender for a couple years now. Lakers? They pretty much dumped all their youth for two guys that are top 10 players and could be competing for a title this year.

Basically the defending champs from last year and the top contenders for next year didn't follow your blueprint yet they have top 10 talent and are contending. The one thing all those teams have in common though, they never stopped chasing wins. They searched for ways to keep winning and eventually it got them to where they are now.

The only common denominator between all the teams you listed is that they weren't worth talking about until they got a top 5 player.

The Raptors traded for Kawhi because Pop wanted to continue to compete. Kawhi didn't want to be there before or after the season. They caught lightning a bottle for sure, but neither Popovich nor Leonard cared about all the meaningless wins the Raptors secured before making the trade.

The Clippers didn't have much youth, and the ones they did have played significant time. They had an inside track on Kawhi for non-basketball reasons and sure as hell took advantage of it, but they gave their kids a shot. Their winning certainly made them attractive, no doubt, but the young guys didn't get shelved to make that happen.

The way the other teams you mentioned got those top 5 players (Lebron, AD, Harden) had literally nothing to do with how many cheap wins they chased with vets before securing those players.

It has nothing to do with cheap wins

It's about priorities. Developing scrubs or guys that are NBA role players at best shouldn't be our priority and it won't get us a top 5 player. Guys that wouldn't crack a rotation on a title contender today aren't going to just magically turn into top 5 players, so really unless we are shelving a top talent even amongst his peers today, then there is nothing to complain about. RJ Barrett not getting minutes, I can understand the complaint because he has that type of potential. Frank Ntilikina not getting playing time, nobody should lose sleep over. It will be fine.

[god shammgod]

you're missing the point. they're not copying the makeup of their roster, they're copying the idea of leaving the cap room open but sneaking into the playoffs on the backs of guys who probably won't be there once the right free agent signs.

[god shammgod]

like right now, it will impossible to keep morris, randle & dsjr 2 years from now and have max cap room. 2 of the 3 have to go. if those guys lead you to the playoffs and attract a free agent, you won't be able to keep them. not to mention frank, dotson, possibly trier, payton, portis, etc. most of them will be gone too. it's an illusion that a free agent is joining that team.

[HEZI]

they're obviously copying the nets to me. the nets put together a team that because they were able to make the playoffs in a horrible conference were able to convince free agents, who want to come to a big market mostly anyway, that they had good enough role players here because of the playoff birth. that's what they're trying to do over these next 2 years.

if you ask me, it's mostly an illusion. most of that team is gone. i saw a breakdown that showed that most of the guys who were positive sum players are no longer there and the young guys who are lauded really didn't help them win much. but nobody really cares it seems. perception is reality. so the knicks are gonna use these vets for the same thing.

Wait, what? You were the leader of the "Kyrie and KD are coming and you will like it" campaign, so what's all this copying the Nets nonsense? :lol:

Also, the major difference is Nets were forking over top picks to Boston over the last few years whereas the Knicks had opportunities to add a bunch of young pieces. The young cores are different. It would be a whole different story if Nets had guys like Brown, Tatum, Sexton that they added vet pieces to.

i don't see the correlation. what does one thing have to do with the other ?

p.s. once kd got hurt i didn't really want him

They literally landed the two guys you caped for us to get for months and months. Now it's, well Knicks shouldn't be going after vets. Were Kyrie and KD not vets before you led the campaign or something? You wanted them to join a 17 win team but somehow them joining a playoff team is just an illusion. I'm just confused but anyways

[god shammgod]

Wait, what? You were the leader of the "Kyrie and KD are coming and you will like it" campaign, so what's all this copying the Nets nonsense? :lol:

Also, the major difference is Nets were forking over top picks to Boston over the last few years whereas the Knicks had opportunities to add a bunch of young pieces. The young cores are different. It would be a whole different story if Nets had guys like Brown, Tatum, Sexton that they added vet pieces to.

i don't see the correlation. what does one thing have to do with the other ?

p.s. once kd got hurt i didn't really want him

They literally landed the two guys you caped for us to get for months and months. Now it's, well Knicks shouldn't be going after vets. Were Kyrie and KD not vets before you led the campaign or something? You wanted them to join a 17 win team but somehow them joining a playoff team is just an illusion. I'm just confused but anyways

you are confused. they got a top 5 player, well he was at least, and another all star with him. show me where i said that's a bad plan ?

the illusion is that the team that made the playoffs is the team they're joining.

[HEZI]

like right now, it will impossible to keep morris, randle & dsjr 2 years from now and have max cap room. 2 of the 3 have to go. if those guys lead you to the playoffs and attract a free agent, you won't be able to keep them. not to mention frank, dotson, possibly trier, payton, portis, etc. most of them will be gone too. it's an illusion that a free agent is joining that team.

But I thought the main goal was to land a top 5 player? You said so yourself. So why does it matter, what should matter is you landing that top 5 player since that's what it's all about, right?

This is where you just confuse me