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The pre-Melo Mike D'Antoni Knicks
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:31 pm
by Chanel Bomber
... were overrated.
There's obviously a section of Knicks fans that still believes the Melo trade was a mistake and/or that the team would've been better off without him. We can debate that (although that horse's been beaten to death) but that's not really my point here. While I loved that team with Stoudemire, Gallinari, Chandler, Fields and Felton, it is in my opinion strangely romanticized as some sort of flashback to the 1970s Knicks, when in reality they were just barely above-average.
First of all, this group was only two wins over .500 when the trade happened. They had a nice stretch to start the season but they were not exactly revolutionizing the game. Secondly, and more importantly, their careers were ravaged by injuries soon thereafter. Which means that their record at the time was probably their peak as a collective.
- Stoudemire's knees were a ticking time bomb. First he hurt his back in the 2011 playoffs, gained weight in the offseason, hurt his back again and then hurt his knee the following year. He was never the same after those injuries. In fact, he was a liability whenever he played once he came back. 0 All-Star appearance.
- Gallinari tore his ACL in 2013, missed the playoffs, and missed the entire 2013-14 season. He has never played a full season since, and even though he's been a very good NBA player, he forever lost his mobility and never reached his potential because of those injuries. 0 All-Star appearance.
- Chandler only played 8 games in 2011-12 and 43 games in 2012-13. His career was also plagued by injury problems. His last season with the Knicks turned out to be the peak of his career. 0 All-Star appearance.
- Landry Fields came back down to Earth after what was just a fluky hot start. He became an overpaid scrub for Toronto after leaving the Knicks. His career ended after only 5 seasons (which I guess is a nice career for a second-round pick). 0 All-Star appearance.
So this wasn't actually a foundation. Building around those guys would've been like building on quick sand. It was not sustainable. That team was cool but looking back, they were more like an optical illusion. There was no All-Star there, just room for further heartbreak.
What's worse is that you can say, the Knicks would've been bad so they could've tanked. Well, 2012 was the AD-Lillard draft but the Knicks would've probably ended up in the 8 to 10 range under Mike D'Antoni with Amar'e (still) playing with a bad back and a (still) healthy Gallinari. We would've been bad the next two seasons, but those were horrible draft classes (the Anthony Bennett draft and the Andrew Wiggins draft) with no franchise players with the exception of Giannis and Embiid. The only reasonable chance at drafting a franchise player considering (or assuming) the circumstances would've been Embiid, and I'm not sure the Knicks would've made that commitment after the Amar'e fiasco.
This is not an endorsement of the Melo trade (although I still think it was the right move) as much as it is intended as a reality check on the pre-Melo Knicks. That team would've never given us the 2012-13 season.
Sorry, I'm bored.
Re: The pre-Melo Mike D'Antoni Knicks
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:33 pm
by GONYK
God bless anyone who has the energy for this debate in 2020
Re: The pre-Melo Mike D'Antoni Knicks
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:35 pm
by 3toheadmelo
Chanel Bomber wrote:... were overrated.
There's obviously a section of Knicks fans that still believes the Melo trade was a mistake and/or that the team would've been better off without him. We can debate that (although that horse's been beaten to death) but that's not really my point here. While I loved that team with Stoudemire, Gallinari, Chandler, Fields and Felton, it is in my opinion strangely romanticized as some sort of flashback to the 1970s Knicks, when in reality they were just barely above-average.
First of all, this group was only two wins over .500 when the trade happened. They had a nice stretch to start the season but they were not exactly revolutionizing the game. Secondly, and more importantly, their careers were ravaged by injuries soon thereafter. Which means that their record at the time was probably their peak as a collective.
- Stoudemire's knees were a ticking time bomb. First he hurt his back in the 2011 playoffs, gained weight in the offseason, hurt his back again and then hurt his knee the following year. He was never the same after those injuries. In fact, he was a liability whenever he played once he came back. 0 All-Star appearance.
- Gallinari tore his ACL in 2013, missed the playoffs, and missed the entire 2013-14 season. He has never played a full season since, and even though he's been a very good NBA player, he forever lost his mobility and never reached his potential because of those injuries. 0 All-Star appearance.
- Chandler only played 8 games in 2011-12 and 43 games in 2012-13. His career was also plagued by injury problems. His last season with the Knicks turned out to be the peak of his career. 0 All-Star appearance.
- Landry Fields came back down to Earth after what was just a fluky hot start. He became an overpaid scrub for Toronto after leaving the Knicks. His career ended after only 5 seasons (which I guess is a nice career for a second-round pick). 0 All-Star appearance.
So this wasn't actually a foundation. Building around those guys would've been like building on quick sand. It was not sustainable. That team was cool but looking back, they were more like an optical illusion. There was no All-Star there, just room for further heartbreak.
What's worse is that you can say, the Knicks would've been bad so they could've tanked. Well, 2012 was the AD-Lillard draft but the Knicks would've probably ended up in the 8 to 10 range under Mike D'Antoni with Amar'e (still) playing with a bad back and a (still) healthy Gallinari. We would've been bad the next two seasons, but those were horrible draft classes (the Anthony Bennett draft and the Andrew Wiggins draft) with no franchise players with the exception of Giannis and Embiid. The only reasonable chance at drafting a franchise player considering (or assuming) the circumstances would've been Embiid, and I'm not sure the Knicks would've made that commitment after the Amar'e fiasco.
This is not an endorsement of the Melo trade (although I still think it was the right move) as much as it is intended as a reality check on the pre-Melo Knicks. That team would've never given us the 2012-13 season.
Sorry, I'm bored.
Re: The pre-Melo Mike D'Antoni Knicks
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:36 pm
by Chanel Bomber
GONYK wrote:God bless anyone who has the energy for this debate in 2020
My bad, I didn't mean to start a conversation about the Melo trade (which I know has been discussed over and over), but rather focus on the alternate universe where the trade doesn't happen. Maybe it's been done ad nauseam before I joined.
Again, I'm bored
Re: The pre-Melo Mike D'Antoni Knicks
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:39 pm
by GONYK
Chanel Bomber wrote:GONYK wrote:God bless anyone who has the energy for this debate in 2020
My bad, I didn't mean to start a conversation about the Melo trade (which I know has been discussed over and over), but rather focus on the alternate universe where the trade doesn't happen. Maybe it's been done ad nauseam before I joined.
Again, I'm bored
No worries man. I have no problem with what you intend for this thread.
It just made me chuckle because there was a time when this was a holy blood war. I read your post now, and just realized that was 10 years ago and now I feel nothing.
Maybe the loss of passion will allow the topic to actually be discussed.
Re: The pre-Melo Mike D'Antoni Knicks
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:40 pm
by Kampuchea
I think Landry Fields went down the drain when his wrist was injured?
Re: The pre-Melo Mike D'Antoni Knicks
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:43 pm
by god shammgod
i saw the title and said out loud "oh no" lol
Re: The pre-Melo Mike D'Antoni Knicks
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:54 pm
by Phish Tank
god shammgod wrote:i saw the title and said out loud "oh no" lol
honestly half the people that woulda flamed this debate are already banned or "retired"
Re: The pre-Melo Mike D'Antoni Knicks
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:54 pm
by HarthorneWingo
GONYK wrote:God bless anyone who has the energy for this debate in 2020
I just can't anymore.
Re: The pre-Melo Mike D'Antoni Knicks
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:55 pm
by HarthorneWingo
Phish Tank wrote:god shammgod wrote:i saw the title and said out loud "oh no" lol
honestly half the people that woulda flamed this debate are already banned or "retired"
And self-banned.
Re: The pre-Melo Mike D'Antoni Knicks
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:05 pm
by Capn'O
That team wasn't going anywhere of importance but I wanted the team to build incrementally and coherently. If we were gonna make a big trade, make it to complement Stat and Mike D. As it turned out, Stat fell off physically pretty quickly so that was unlikely to yield much either. The Stat signing was killer and Joe Johnson and Melo may have actually fit better. Go figure. But what can you do when a third of your cap is dead weight?
Obv. Melo via free agency would have been sweet but probably impossible.
Re: The pre-Melo Mike D'Antoni Knicks
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:25 pm
by Clyde Frazier
GONYK wrote:God bless anyone who has the energy for this debate in 2020
Can't speak for other fanbases, but it's incredible how much we fixate on specific moves (however minute) even 15-20 years later. Probably has something to do with the lack of winning, but our fanbase is insane in that regard and I love it
Re: The pre-Melo Mike D'Antoni Knicks
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:32 pm
by Clyde Frazier
Yeah, if Chandler and Gallo went on to have healthy careers the melo trade stings *much* more. Gallo especially had the potential to be a special offensive player. But yeah, the melo haters are obsessed with overrating that team and the Lin run. I wanted Lin back but they glorify guys like JARED **** JEFFRIES in the process. Awful.
Re: The pre-Melo Mike D'Antoni Knicks
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:45 pm
by moocow007
The Melo trade was a mistake in the sense that the Knicks could not build a team around Melo except that one season where if not for a crazy hot Pacer team they could have knocked out the "Big 3" in Miami in the playoffs. Just like the Dantoni team was a mistake in the sense that Melo cleary did not fit that team but the two were forced into a marriage that was clearly doomed ftom the start.
The bottom line is the Knicks front office has continued to horribly fail at building any sort of a ream for well over 20 years now. Not enough talent. Players that didn't fit each other. Players that didnt fit the coach and vice versa. Personalities across the board (not just players, but coaches, front office execs) that were more interested in their own security and happiness than that of the team.
No plan. No skill.. Changing directions at the drop of a hat. Chasing fantasies. Clueless, clueless, clueless!!! Wasting years. Wasting decades.
Ever since and starting with the Ewing trade (21+ years ago) Its been an unmitigated disaster. Should have realized that the Knicks of the 1990's were coming to an end and looked to rest by trading Ewing to Portland in a package centered around the young and talented Jermaine Oneal and picks (as was rumored), instead of believing that they were still an elite team and trading Ewing for an over the hill Glen Rice and a whole bunch of overpriced vets.
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Re: The pre-Melo Mike D'Antoni Knicks
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:56 pm
by Chanel Bomber
Clyde Frazier wrote:GONYK wrote:God bless anyone who has the energy for this debate in 2020
Can't speak for other fanbases, but it's incredible how much we fixate on specific moves (however minute) even 15-20 years later. Probably has something to do with the lack of winning, but our fanbase is insane in that regard and I love it
We're assuredly the only fanbase that is entirely composed of romantics.
Re: The pre-Melo Mike D'Antoni Knicks
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:22 pm
by Capn'O
moocow007 wrote:The Melo trade was a mistake in the sense that the Knicks could not build a team around Melo except that one season where if not for a crazy hot Pacer team they could have knocked out the "Big 3" in Miami in the playoffs. Just like the Dantoni team was a mistake in the sense that Melo cleary did not fit that team but the two were forced into a marriage that was clearly doomed ftom the start.
The bottom line is the Knicks front office has continued to horribly fail at building any sort of a ream for well over 20 years now. Not enough talent. Players that didn't fit each other. Players that didnt fit the coach and vice versa. Personalities across the board (not just players, but coaches, front office execs) that were more interested in their own security and happiness than that of the team.
No plan. No skill.. Changing directions at the drop of a hat. Chasing fantasies. Clueless, clueless, clueless!!! Wasting years. Wasting decades.
Ever since and starting with the Ewing trade (21+ years ago) Its been an unmitigated disaster.
Sent from my SM-N975U using
RealGM mobile app
The Moo of Old was a Defender of Good Players who were miscast in this mess. That was fair, and I respect it.
But current "**** this Franchise Moo" is a lot of fun. Two sides of the same coin, I suppose.
Re: The pre-Melo Mike D'Antoni Knicks
Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:10 am
by Phish Tank
moocow007 wrote:The Melo trade was a mistake in the sense that the Knicks could not build a team around Melo except that one season where if not for a crazy hot Pacer team they could have knocked out the "Big 3" in Miami in the playoffs. Just like the Dantoni team was a mistake in the sense that Melo cleary did not fit that team but the two were forced into a marriage that was clearly doomed ftom the start.
The bottom line is the Knicks front office has continued to horribly fail at building any sort of a ream for well over 20 years now. Not enough talent. Players that didn't fit each other. Players that didnt fit the coach and vice versa. Personalities across the board (not just players, but coaches, front office execs) that were more interested in their own security and happiness than that of the team.
No plan. No skill.. Changing directions at the drop of a hat. Chasing fantasies. Clueless, clueless, clueless!!! Wasting years. Wasting decades.
Ever since and starting with the Ewing trade (21+ years ago) Its been an unmitigated disaster.
Sent from my SM-N975U using
RealGM mobile app
funny thing about it is that one of Donnie Walsh's fatal moves as Knicks' prez was probably hiring D'Antoni to bridge the team between 2008 to the year of Bron
Re: The pre-Melo Mike D'Antoni Knicks
Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:11 am
by Phish Tank
Capn'O wrote:moocow007 wrote:The Melo trade was a mistake in the sense that the Knicks could not build a team around Melo except that one season where if not for a crazy hot Pacer team they could have knocked out the "Big 3" in Miami in the playoffs. Just like the Dantoni team was a mistake in the sense that Melo cleary did not fit that team but the two were forced into a marriage that was clearly doomed ftom the start.
The bottom line is the Knicks front office has continued to horribly fail at building any sort of a ream for well over 20 years now. Not enough talent. Players that didn't fit each other. Players that didnt fit the coach and vice versa. Personalities across the board (not just players, but coaches, front office execs) that were more interested in their own security and happiness than that of the team.
No plan. No skill.. Changing directions at the drop of a hat. Chasing fantasies. Clueless, clueless, clueless!!! Wasting years. Wasting decades.
Ever since and starting with the Ewing trade (21+ years ago) Its been an unmitigated disaster.
Sent from my SM-N975U using
RealGM mobile app
The Moo of Old was a Defender of Good Players who were miscast in this mess. That was fair, and I respect it.
But current "**** this Franchise Moo" is a lot of fun. Two sides of the same coin, I suppose.
I miss Moo banhammering people.... like the dk7ths of the world
Re: The pre-Melo Mike D'Antoni Knicks
Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:44 am
by Capn'O
Phish Tank wrote:Capn'O wrote:moocow007 wrote:The Melo trade was a mistake in the sense that the Knicks could not build a team around Melo except that one season where if not for a crazy hot Pacer team they could have knocked out the "Big 3" in Miami in the playoffs. Just like the Dantoni team was a mistake in the sense that Melo cleary did not fit that team but the two were forced into a marriage that was clearly doomed ftom the start.
The bottom line is the Knicks front office has continued to horribly fail at building any sort of a ream for well over 20 years now. Not enough talent. Players that didn't fit each other. Players that didnt fit the coach and vice versa. Personalities across the board (not just players, but coaches, front office execs) that were more interested in their own security and happiness than that of the team.
No plan. No skill.. Changing directions at the drop of a hat. Chasing fantasies. Clueless, clueless, clueless!!! Wasting years. Wasting decades.
Ever since and starting with the Ewing trade (21+ years ago) Its been an unmitigated disaster.
Sent from my SM-N975U using
RealGM mobile app
The Moo of Old was a Defender of Good Players who were miscast in this mess. That was fair, and I respect it.
But current "**** this Franchise Moo" is a lot of fun. Two sides of the same coin, I suppose.
I miss Moo banhammering people.... like the dk7ths of the world
The TS% Avenger!
Re: The pre-Melo Mike D'Antoni Knicks
Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:42 am
by HarthorneWingo
Capn'O wrote:That team wasn't going anywhere of importance but I wanted the team to build incrementally and coherently. If we were gonna make a big trade, make it to complement Stat and Mike D. As it turned out, Stat fell off physically pretty quickly so that was unlikely to yield much either. The Stat signing was killer and Joe Johnson and Melo may have actually fit better. Go figure. But what can you do when a third of your cap is dead weight?
Obv. Melo via free agency would have been sweet but probably impossible.
You gotta play hardball with Leon. Melo was too interested in his “brand” to go to The Nyets. It would’ve been interesting to see how that played out if we didn’t make that trade. He could’ve negotiated an opt-out in a couple years, keep our team in tact, and go from there. Melo could then renegotiate his max contract at that time.