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2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 6) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15!

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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 6) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#461 » by 3toheadmelo » Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:04 pm

Im bowing out of this Haliburton vs Frank thing. I'll just end it here on this note

This is Haliburton as a playmaker













This is Frank
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 6) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#462 » by mpharris36 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:04 pm

3toheadmelo wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:If you look back in the thread, It was you that started the back and forth. Me and Deez were saying how he's a much better playmaker than Frank and you came in here trying to defend Frank as usual lol


no my argument is is simple. Is Haliburton who is a better shooter than Frank worthy of passing on a guy like Deni or even for your sake Obi...when we have someone that at least does "similar" things.

But the topic of the convo has nothing to do about taking Haliburton over Deni and Obi. The whole back and forth is when you came at us for saying he's a much better playmaker than Frank lol

I'm also still voting for Obi btw :lol:


that was the ultimate start of the argument. He's not that much better of a playmaker to warrant picking above certain players.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 6) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#463 » by god shammgod » Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:05 pm

Buttah304 wrote:Is anyone else concerned about Halliburton’s release at the next level? Dude was a sniper of a 3 point shooter but his mechanics are interesting. Anybody have pause about that at the next level?


he's slow and low. he's gonna need to be wide open with time to shoot. defenses in the nba aren't going to give him that too much so he probably won't shoot as well in the nba.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 6) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#464 » by Buttah304 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:07 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
Buttah304 wrote:It’s fair to compare Frank and Halliburton when it comes to defense and wingspan. But after watching multiple games of Halliburton this season there is no way Frank compares to him from a vision perspective. I’m not saying Tyrese is other worldly better but from the eye test he’s a clear cut level above as a floor general. Franks #1 play on offense over the last three seasons has been to dribble the ball past half court and immediately dump it to another player. Of course I have seen Frank drop some dimes in his Knick career (it’s in those moments where I ask myself why can’t he do that more often). But he just doesn’t see the floor like Tyrese does.


where do you rank him on your big board? who whould you pick over tyrese?


In terms of guards I have them the following:

LaMelo (I would draft him with the 1st pick in general)
Anthony Edwards
Killian Hayes
Halliburton/Cole Anthony
Kira Lewis
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 6) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#465 » by Buttah304 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:11 pm

god shammgod wrote:
Buttah304 wrote:Is anyone else concerned about Halliburton’s release at the next level? Dude was a sniper of a 3 point shooter but his mechanics are interesting. Anybody have pause about that at the next level?


he's slow and low. he's gonna need to be wide open with time to shoot. defenses in the nba aren't going to give him that too much so he probably won't shoot as well in the nba.


I actually believe that Cole Anthony will be a better 3 point shooter at the next level than Tyrese. Could be completely wrong on that but then again I’m not a scout I’m just a Knicks fan whose slowly dying inside.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 6) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#466 » by Deeeez Knicks » Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:11 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
I disagree overall that haliburton has significantly better vision. I have seen Frank make very nice passes and reads (his overall issue was simply being able to break down a defense - which I also see with haliburton at the next level) if the pass was there he is good at finding the open guy. I would love to see the synergy stats but I would probably say Frank is more effective in the P&R then Haliburton.

Haliburton ranked in the 25th percentile (considered below avg) in P&R passing and while he makes the right reads...he doesn't really force any passes either. And I like Haliburton

Also I don't know why Frank is a 3/D guy when he hasn't been good at shooting 3's :lol: . He's actually very successful as a P&R ball handler.

Like Deez has said, Frank is just a basic passer and Haliburton can make special reads. Frank is a significantly worse playmaker than Frank. Haliburton even had a game in college with 17 assists. The consensus around Haliburton is that he is the best playmaker in the draft behind Lamelo.

Even the very first play here stands out. Frank doesn't have this type of creativity.
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haliburton is not a better playmaker than Hayes.

Haliburton is good with what he's good at. He has no mid range game and a many of jump passes that he gets away with college he will not be able to do in the pros.

He is a great transition player, great C&S shoot player. I would not call him a great playmaker. He doesn't get into the paint or beat his main of the dribble how exactly will he be playmaking at that high of a level?

Frank had a higher PPP (points per possession) in the P&R than Haliburton but Haliburton is some great playmaker and frank is not good?


Haliburton was in the 63rd percentile setting up his roll man (1.061 PPP). He was just in the 8th percentile (.526 PPP) when he finds spot-up shooters out of the pick-and-roll. That is mostly cause his team is horrible shooting. They shot just 22.3% in that situation and 29.5% from three overall. Cole gets a pass for playing with bad teamates, and there is a point with that. Similiar with Ball, Hayes and others. Haliburton had some pretty bad teamates too. He still put up really good numbers despite of that. He def could have had more assists with better shooters.

He struggled with mid range jumpers, and just being aggressive in general. Haliburton also scored 1.211 PPP (67th percentile) around the rim and .897 PPP (74th percentile) on runners. He didnt do some of those enough, but was pretty capable. I think he def has a lot of room to get better in that end.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 6) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#467 » by Deeeez Knicks » Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:19 pm

god shammgod wrote:
Buttah304 wrote:Is anyone else concerned about Halliburton’s release at the next level? Dude was a sniper of a 3 point shooter but his mechanics are interesting. Anybody have pause about that at the next level?


he's slow and low. he's gonna need to be wide open with time to shoot. defenses in the nba aren't going to give him that too much so he probably won't shoot as well in the nba.


Haliburton has a low release, but he gets it off pretty quick on catch and shoots. A lot of great shooters have low releases. His form is funky...he is slow shooting off the dribble and that is probably the part that he may never be great at...off catch and shoot think he will be a good shooter though and he gets it off pretty quick

(2nd clip for quick release...first clip for bonus jam)

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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 6) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#468 » by Strick » Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:27 pm

I’d rather have Frank than Haliburton. I think Frank can and will be a better player.

I’d rather have Kira Lewis, Tyrell Terry, and possibly consider someone like Cole Anthony over Haliburton (I’m not high on either).
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 6) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#469 » by moocow007 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:34 pm

Buttah304 wrote:Is anyone else concerned about Halliburton’s release at the next level? Dude was a sniper of a 3 point shooter but his mechanics are interesting. Anybody have pause about that at the next level?


A little bit yeah. And it's another thing that folks don't consider.

There is no better case in point than Trajan Langdon. Langdon was one of the deadliest college shooters in the modern era. Nearly 43% from 3 in volume shooting for Duke. That got him drafted 11th overall in 1999. Super. So what happened? He had a slow ass release is what happened. I mentioned this way back in the basketball blogs prior to joining RGM. As with now, folks didn't either want to listen or didn't understand how that could be. They couldn't understand why shooting a 3 in college on a team like he was on at Duke (star studded one) could mean anything other than a Reggie Miller like career in the NBA (and there they were, folks comparing him to Miller heading into the draft, and there I was saying he has a slow ass release and will never be close to Miller). They couldn't understand why you don't have the same luxury to get your shot off in college as you would in the NBA where opposing players are taller, have longer reach and that NBA defenses are better able to stop shooters, especially shooters drafted to crappy teams that didn't have the stars or mega shot creators to draw opposing defenses attention. Langdon had a hard time shooting with a clean look at the basket cause it took him too damn long to line up and release the ball.

Now Haliburton's release isn't as slow as Langdon's but absolutely release time, release angle all factor in TREMENDOUSLY in how successful a "college shooter" will be in the NBA. It's not as simple as looking at a guys 3 point shooting percentage in college and saying "yep that guy is gonna be [insert great NBA shooter]". Nothing is that easy or straightforward. Everything matters, even a half second lag in your shot could mean being a terrific 3 point shooter in the NBA and Trajan Langdon. Now if you're more than just a 3 point shooter than that might not be so bad cause you're not on the floor to shoot and if you do really see an opening here and there THEN and only then do you launch your slower than ideal, lower than ideal shot, but for "pure shooters", yeah, that's a potential death sentence to your NBA career (or at least the bulk of your NBA usefulness on the offensive end).

Looking at Reggie Miller will tell you what ideal NBA shooting is. Not only was Miller's launch angle real high (super long arms), he had one of the quickest releases in NBA history (8 seconds 3 shots 8 points anyone?). Steph Curry is the same way, super fast release and high launch angle (elevate real high). Always open looks, extremely hard to get a hand in their face. Neither was Langdon.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 6) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#470 » by Deeeez Knicks » Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:40 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
god shammgod wrote:it doesn't matter much if he's a slightly better passer than frank because he's gonna play off ball while someone else who is a threat to attack will have the ball in his hands.


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and I even like him more than you do, but dude isn't going to be that level playmaker at the next level. That wouldn't even be using him to his strengths when he is such a weapon off ball.


The way I look at it is that we want as many guys that can play with and without the ball as possible and play both ends. That is part of what made GS so dangerous. Just about everyone can play great with or without the ball. They don't have one guy with the ball in their hands and everyone watches. They have multiple guys that can facilitate and it makes them much tougher to defend....Spurs, Raptors, etc...a lot of great teams have that

That is where I see the beauty of Haliburton. He can be great off the ball, but also make plays as a secondary facilitator...We still need multiple secondary facilitators and ones that can play off/on the ball are valuable. Even if we draft Cole, Kira, etc or anyone else at that spot we would still need a primary guy. I dont think we can give them the ball everytime and expect them to carry the load. They dont really look like primary facilitators either on good teams. We would still need a #1 option, shooters, etc and other guys to make plays.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 6) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#471 » by robillionaire » Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:55 pm

emoni bates committing to michigan state, high school draft probably not happening, let's try to get an extra 2023 pick besides that protected dallas one
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 6) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#472 » by HarthorneWingo » Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:16 pm

robillionaire wrote:Frank will be better on defense than Haliburton. He’s taller and larger wingspan as well. Haliburton should be solid on D but not on the level of frank. That said Haliburton if he can sustain his ncaa shooting percentage will still be more valuable than Frank unless frank magically shoots 38% instead of 32%. I don’t think his playmaking is all that much better than current frank, none of it seems impressive to me and frank does ok when he’s not playing timid and giving up the ball at halfcourt. He had that 20 pt 10 ast game recently. Never forget.


I'm sure Frank is working his butt off. If he can't just get it to 36% this year, I'll be very happy. Just show some steady and consistent improvement. I think FIBA Frank is not too far off. :D

Also, for me, Tyrese is the better offensively while Frank is better defensively. But together, along with Mitch and RJ? Oh the humanity. We will be beasts defensively.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 6) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#473 » by Naughtyfatboy » Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:17 pm

Buttah304 wrote:Is anyone else concerned about Halliburton’s release at the next level? Dude was a sniper of a 3 point shooter but his mechanics are interesting. Anybody have pause about that at the next level?


If he has to create his own shot- yes

If he’s spot up shooting- no

I do feel he is headed down the underrated path though, he’s not frank. He’s more Lonzo ball and that’s still a good player to have on your team I wouldn’t be mad if the Knicks took hailburton. I like some other guys upside more but I like hailburton too.

Hailburton, barret, Mitchell if it goes well I think this is a trio that could possibly attract a star to come here But I don’t think either of these guys are actually A main piece for the Knicks as far as being a legit go to player.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 6) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#474 » by robillionaire » Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:24 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
robillionaire wrote:Frank will be better on defense than Haliburton. He’s taller and larger wingspan as well. Haliburton should be solid on D but not on the level of frank. That said Haliburton if he can sustain his ncaa shooting percentage will still be more valuable than Frank unless frank magically shoots 38% instead of 32%. I don’t think his playmaking is all that much better than current frank, none of it seems impressive to me and frank does ok when he’s not playing timid and giving up the ball at halfcourt. He had that 20 pt 10 ast game recently. Never forget.


I'm sure Frank is working his butt off. If he can't just get it to 36% this year, I'll be very happy. Just show some steady and consistent improvement. I think FIBA Frank is not too far off. :D

Also, for me, Tyrese is the better offensively while Frank is better defensively. But together, along with Mitch and RJ? Oh the humanity. We will be beasts defensively.


Thing is Frank is also on the last year of his rookie contract and who knows if he plans to sign any kind of extension or come back after next season. If we aren’t committed to bringing him back he is going to be like the guys who played ahead of him in prior years who took minutes from our younger pg when he’s not even going to be back. I hope he likes rose or someone in the new regime and we can keep him on the cheap but I say there’s a good chance he wants out
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 6) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#475 » by Naughtyfatboy » Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:36 pm

I still like lamelo as top priority. Knicks need a point guard that has complete control And confidence in execution ability. Somebody who can pick and apart the defense swiftly and complete plays for his teammates while possessing the potential to get there own. Lamelo is closes to being that guy

I can’t say I have a preference after lamelo is off board. Put any of these Point guards name in a hat and I’m cool with whoever gets pulled out.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 6) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#476 » by RHODEY » Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:02 pm

robillionaire wrote:Frank will be better on defense than Haliburton. He’s taller and larger wingspan as well. Haliburton should be solid on D but not on the level of frank. That said Haliburton if he can sustain his ncaa shooting percentage will still be more valuable than Frank unless frank magically shoots 38% instead of 32%. I don’t think his playmaking is all that much better than current frank, none of it seems impressive to me and frank does ok when he’s not playing timid and giving up the ball at halfcourt. He had that 20 pt 10 ast game recently. Never forget.


Did Frank grow? I thought they were both 6'5" and Halbutrton has a 6'11" wingspan, so they are very close I thought.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 6) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#477 » by Infinitimind » Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:07 pm

mpharris36 wrote:I got highlights of passes too :lol:

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Most of the great passes from Frank came his rookie year. I still remembered the game against the lakers, frank came in the game and out played lonzo. Lock him up the 2nd half and the next few games frank played limited minutes. Horrible coaching thru out his career with the Knicks and we wonder why he hasn’t developed. Just sad
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 6) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#478 » by sims » Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:12 pm

Naughtyfatboy wrote:I do feel he is headed down the underrated path though, he’s not frank. He’s more Lonzo ball and that’s still a good player to have on your team I wouldn’t be mad if the Knicks took hailburton. I like some other guys upside more but I like hailburton too.


one thing i'll say about lonzo is that his biggest hindrance is his personality - he's just naturally a very meek and timid guy who doesn't seem at all comfortable in his own skin. he clearly has always had the talent to be a premier guard - it was pretty obvious in HS and college - but the intangibles just aren't there to be a big-time impact player at the highest level. a player with his physical talent and a more brash and fearless personality would be really damn good. if that's what haliburton is then i think he has a bright future. and for what it's worth i put lamelo in a totally different category.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 6) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#479 » by Deeeez Knicks » Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:28 pm

The thing i love about Haliburton is that he has a unique game. The mistake is putting him in a box or labeling him. Sometimes those unique players end up creating there own label and have higher upsides.

Another plus is he basically doubled his production from his freshman year too, after balling out for team USA playing with the best of the best at his age group. He might just be coming into his own. I like players like that that show a lot improvement at that age....see Ja and Donovan Mitchell.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 6) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15! 

Post#480 » by HEZI » Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:07 am

Deeeez Knicks wrote:The thing i love about Haliburton is that he has a unique game. The mistake is putting him in a box or labeling him. Sometimes those unique players end up creating there own label and have higher upsides.

Another plus is he basically doubled his production from his freshman year too, after balling out for team USA playing with the best of the best at his age group. He might just be coming into his own. I like players like that that show a lot improvement at that age....see Ja and Donovan Mitchell.


He's very unique indeed. There's really no legit comp for him, just shades of a lot of different players. He's got some JKidd and Pablo Prigioni qualities in his game. Some Ricky Rubio qualities. Some SGA qualities. Brogdon, etc. He might never become a perennial All Star but he's got potential to be in the league for a long time as a legit complimentary piece.
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