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George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2

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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#161 » by HarthorneWingo » Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:53 pm

BallSacBounce wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
BallSacBounce wrote:What do you think should be done in a Daniel Prude case? I have a tough time successfully configuring a clear path to dealing with a case like that.

High as a kite, what do you do? On PCP, does that change things? Sliding scale of possible actions? Who decides?


You send a team of mental health emergency assessment professionals Who are trained to deal with the situation. You certainly don’t put a spit big over his head and suffocate him to death. I hope we can agree on this part of the incident.

I think the state AG’s office should conduct a criminal investigation of the officers. The PD also needs to do a very transparent investigation overseen by the Chief and the Mayor.

I think the officers should lose their jobs. Supervisors and dispatchers head may be on the block too. I have a hard time believing that there is not enough evidence for a successful prosecution. There is certainly evidence of callous disregard for human life, criminal recklessness.

Then, after municipality pays the Prude estate a large sum of money, it needs to figure out to better respond to these mental health emergencies. That function should be taken away from the local police. Particularly if no weapon is alleged to be involved.

This is yet another example of why we need to defund the police. At the very least, the police are not competent to understand the nature of the behavior they’re witnessing And having to deal with. The police do one thing. They make arrests. They are not here to help you.

Did you see the police shooting of the autistic boy whose mother called 911 and asked for a mental health emergency response unit and told the dispatcher that that her son was not a danger and do not have a weapon? I believe I posted the story earlier in this thread. The PF sent the wrong unit which shot the boy up while was running scared from them.

This wasn't a mental health issue. He was high. In either case you also have to send the police in case he becomes dangerous. But yeah, a different type of response needs to be given.

No reason for Daniel Prude or the autistic boy to have ended up dead.

If juries won't convict on regular charges maybe we need separate cop charges for these types of things. Something has to happen to them. Something substantial.


Being high is still a mental health episode requiring professionals bc police don’t have that necessary knowledge. Also, I’m not saying that there shouldn’t be any police response. I have no problem assigning a police unit to work as part of that unit but under the direction of a professional. I should’ve made that clear.

But I appreciate you
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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#162 » by BallSacBounce » Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:09 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
BallSacBounce wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
You send a team of mental health emergency assessment professionals Who are trained to deal with the situation. You certainly don’t put a spit big over his head and suffocate him to death. I hope we can agree on this part of the incident.

I think the state AG’s office should conduct a criminal investigation of the officers. The PD also needs to do a very transparent investigation overseen by the Chief and the Mayor.

I think the officers should lose their jobs. Supervisors and dispatchers head may be on the block too. I have a hard time believing that there is not enough evidence for a successful prosecution. There is certainly evidence of callous disregard for human life, criminal recklessness.

Then, after municipality pays the Prude estate a large sum of money, it needs to figure out to better respond to these mental health emergencies. That function should be taken away from the local police. Particularly if no weapon is alleged to be involved.

This is yet another example of why we need to defund the police. At the very least, the police are not competent to understand the nature of the behavior they’re witnessing And having to deal with. The police do one thing. They make arrests. They are not here to help you.

Did you see the police shooting of the autistic boy whose mother called 911 and asked for a mental health emergency response unit and told the dispatcher that that her son was not a danger and do not have a weapon? I believe I posted the story earlier in this thread. The PF sent the wrong unit which shot the boy up while was running scared from them.

This wasn't a mental health issue. He was high. In either case you also have to send the police in case he becomes dangerous. But yeah, a different type of response needs to be given.

No reason for Daniel Prude or the autistic boy to have ended up dead.

If juries won't convict on regular charges maybe we need separate cop charges for these types of things. Something has to happen to them. Something substantial.


Being high is still a mental health episode requiring professionals bc police don’t have that necessary knowledge. Also, I’m not saying that there shouldn’t be any police response. I have no problem assigning a police unit to work as part of that unit but under the direction of a professional. I should’ve made that clear.

But I appreciate you


Police only have hammers and everything looks like a nail. We are asking them to do too much when we send them to these kinds of episodes. They're still at fault for not being more caring about life but we can change things around on our end.
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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#163 » by BallSacBounce » Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:21 pm

There's a transgender anarchist satanist Republican candidate for New Hampshire Sherriff who ran on the slogan "f*** the police."

Lets see you top that Wingo!

https://hotair.com/archives/jazz-shaw/2020/09/12/much-winning-transgender-satanist-anarchist-wins-gop-nomination-new-hampshire/

No word yet if the Republican Party will help fund DiMezzo's campaign.
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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#164 » by Pointgod » Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:04 pm

So if the police did nothing wrong in the death of Breonna Taylor, then why the wrongful death settlement?

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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#165 » by nedleeds » Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:40 pm

Pointgod wrote:So if the police did nothing wrong in the death of Breonna Taylor, then why the wrongful death settlement?

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Ask OJ.
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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#166 » by nedleeds » Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:46 pm

Stannis wrote:I'm not a lawyer or know anything about law, but I don't get the "drugs" angle? The knee to the neck was still the causation of death? If that doesn't happen Floyd lives...


They'll be able to show he was having a manic attack and likely cardiac issues while in the car, in the air conditioning. The drugs angle is old news, he was on enough fentty to kill a mountain goat. Still can't believe the full tape didn't come out first.

I think this is looking like manslaughter if they think the city won't burn over it. Maybe CNH to get the word homicide in the conviction and keep Antifa-LM from burning the other Target.

https://reischlawfirm.com/criminally-negligent-homicide-vs-manslaughter-whats-difference/
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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#167 » by HarthorneWingo » Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:29 am

nedleeds wrote:
Stannis wrote:I'm not a lawyer or know anything about law, but I don't get the "drugs" angle? The knee to the neck was still the causation of death? If that doesn't happen Floyd lives...


They'll be able to show he was having a manic attack and likely cardiac issues while in the car, in the air conditioning. The drugs angle is old news, he was on enough fentty to kill a mountain goat. Still can't believe the full tape didn't come out first.

I think this is looking like manslaughter if they think the city won't burn over it. Maybe CNH to get the word homicide in the conviction and keep Antifa-LM from burning the other Target.

https://reischlawfirm.com/criminally-negligent-homicide-vs-manslaughter-whats-difference/


You put you knee into someone’s neck for 8:46, they’re gonna end up brain damaged or dead.
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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#168 » by nedleeds » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:29 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
nedleeds wrote:
Stannis wrote:I'm not a lawyer or know anything about law, but I don't get the "drugs" angle? The knee to the neck was still the causation of death? If that doesn't happen Floyd lives...


They'll be able to show he was having a manic attack and likely cardiac issues while in the car, in the air conditioning. The drugs angle is old news, he was on enough fentty to kill a mountain goat. Still can't believe the full tape didn't come out first.

I think this is looking like manslaughter if they think the city won't burn over it. Maybe CNH to get the word homicide in the conviction and keep Antifa-LM from burning the other Target.

https://reischlawfirm.com/criminally-negligent-homicide-vs-manslaughter-whats-difference/


You put you knee into someone’s neck for 8:46, they’re gonna end up brain damaged or dead.

Probably, but if he is already dying when he asked out (the claustrophobic thing might get debunked also) of the air conditioned cop car it's not likely murder 1. Anything can happen in a jury trial though, the fact that Chauvin has a record of misconduct and if they can find some evidence of prior disagreements when they bounced together maybe they can get it. If they left him in the car and he died is it murder 1? He's breathing and screaming for his life is what the defense will argue thus not being asphyxiated by 8 minutes of kneeing.
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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#169 » by HarthorneWingo » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:43 pm

nedleeds wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
nedleeds wrote:
They'll be able to show he was having a manic attack and likely cardiac issues while in the car, in the air conditioning. The drugs angle is old news, he was on enough fentty to kill a mountain goat. Still can't believe the full tape didn't come out first.

I think this is looking like manslaughter if they think the city won't burn over it. Maybe CNH to get the word homicide in the conviction and keep Antifa-LM from burning the other Target.

https://reischlawfirm.com/criminally-negligent-homicide-vs-manslaughter-whats-difference/


You put you knee into someone’s neck for 8:46, they’re gonna end up brain damaged or dead.

Probably, but if he is already dying when he asked out (the claustrophobic thing might get debunked also) of the air conditioned cop car it's not likely murder 1. Anything can happen in a jury trial though, the fact that Chauvin has a record of misconduct and if they can find some evidence of prior disagreements when they bounced together maybe they can get it. If they left him in the car and he died is it murder 1? He's breathing and screaming for his life is what the defense will argue thus not being asphyxiated by 8 minutes of kneeing.


Already dying when he asked out of the police vehicle?

Come again?
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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#170 » by nedleeds » Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:17 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
nedleeds wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
You put you knee into someone’s neck for 8:46, they’re gonna end up brain damaged or dead.

Probably, but if he is already dying when he asked out (the claustrophobic thing might get debunked also) of the air conditioned cop car it's not likely murder 1. Anything can happen in a jury trial though, the fact that Chauvin has a record of misconduct and if they can find some evidence of prior disagreements when they bounced together maybe they can get it. If they left him in the car and he died is it murder 1? He's breathing and screaming for his life is what the defense will argue thus not being asphyxiated by 8 minutes of kneeing.


Already dying when he asked out of the police vehicle?

Come again?


I think they're going to try to show he was having an overdose episode and cardiac problems while he was still in the car, from a panic attack and existing health. Then when he asked out because of the "claustrophobia" he was basically already having a cardiac event. Chauvin then exacerbated it, hence manslaughter or negligent homicide.

If you look at the complete video I think the defense will try this angle. They'll argue he was in massive discomfort and having an episode while in the air conditioning, thus he asked to get out. I'm not saying it's true, or a jury will buy it but it seems like a straight forward path to a lesser charge than first degree murder.

Edit: I guess it's currently 2nd degree murder as booked
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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#171 » by HarthorneWingo » Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:38 pm

nedleeds wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
nedleeds wrote:Probably, but if he is already dying when he asked out (the claustrophobic thing might get debunked also) of the air conditioned cop car it's not likely murder 1. Anything can happen in a jury trial though, the fact that Chauvin has a record of misconduct and if they can find some evidence of prior disagreements when they bounced together maybe they can get it. If they left him in the car and he died is it murder 1? He's breathing and screaming for his life is what the defense will argue thus not being asphyxiated by 8 minutes of kneeing.


Already dying when he asked out of the police vehicle?

Come again?


I think they're going to try to show he was having an overdose episode and cardiac problems while he was still in the car, from a panic attack and existing health. Then when he asked out because of the "claustrophobia" he was basically already having a cardiac event. Chauvin then exacerbated it, hence manslaughter or negligent homicide.

If you look at the complete video I think the defense will try this angle. They'll argue he was in massive discomfort and having an episode while in the air conditioning, thus he asked to get out. I'm not saying it's true, or a jury will buy it but it seems like a straight forward path to a lesser charge than first degree murder.

Edit: I guess it's currently 2nd degree murder as booked


The autopsy report says otherwise. Says "Death by homicide."

Floyd was not under drug intoxication. He only had traces of it.
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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#172 » by nedleeds » Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:01 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
nedleeds wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
Already dying when he asked out of the police vehicle?

Come again?


I think they're going to try to show he was having an overdose episode and cardiac problems while he was still in the car, from a panic attack and existing health. Then when he asked out because of the "claustrophobia" he was basically already having a cardiac event. Chauvin then exacerbated it, hence manslaughter or negligent homicide.

If you look at the complete video I think the defense will try this angle. They'll argue he was in massive discomfort and having an episode while in the air conditioning, thus he asked to get out. I'm not saying it's true, or a jury will buy it but it seems like a straight forward path to a lesser charge than first degree murder.

Edit: I guess it's currently 2nd degree murder as booked


The autopsy report says otherwise. Says "Death by homicide."

Floyd was not under drug intoxication. He only had traces of it.


Well again traces is debatable. We have the amount. The toxicology study at the autopsy has his level at 11 ng/mL, together with 5.6 ng/mL of norfentanyl, which is what fentanyl metabolizes down to. There are 10 other things that determine metabolic rate which will fill the proceedings.

"A New Hampshire public health study on the internet of 505 fentanyl overdose deaths. The blood level ranged from 0.75 to 113 ng/mL, with a *mean* of 9.96 ng. So, Floyd had a dose somewhat higher than the average NH fentanyl overdose fatality.
Given that the data range there is 0.75 all the way up to 113, that means that the *median* level is significantly below 9.96."

So his amount is above a somewhat accepted amount for an overdose. But body weight, tolerance and other things play a factor. I imagine much of the defense will argue for the overdose + pre-existing heart disease + mental problems.

https://lawandcrime.com/george-floyd-death/authorities-just-released-george-floyds-complete-autopsy-report-read-it-here/

Floyd’s cause of death is listed officially as “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restrain, and neck compression.” The full autopsy report states further that “no life-threatening injuries [were] identified.”

But the autopsy report clearly says that he did NOT die of asphyxiation. There’s something that happens to the eyes in those cases and Floyd’s body didn’t have that. Nor was there any damage to the trachea or bruising to the neck.

Anyway, it's going to be complex. We all agree it was terrible policing. We all agree Floyd was not compliant and if he'd just gotten in the air conditioned cop car he'd be alive. I think most people wouldn't argue too much with manslaughter, mostly because you can audibly hear the man stating he can't breathe ... so ... I'm not sure what the people who think Chauvin will be innocent on everything are arguing. The other huge piece of bullcrap that will get argued to death is the restraint training guide. The cops will claim by the book use of a collectively bargained restraint.
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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#173 » by HarthorneWingo » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:16 pm

nedleeds wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
nedleeds wrote:
I think they're going to try to show he was having an overdose episode and cardiac problems while he was still in the car, from a panic attack and existing health. Then when he asked out because of the "claustrophobia" he was basically already having a cardiac event. Chauvin then exacerbated it, hence manslaughter or negligent homicide.

If you look at the complete video I think the defense will try this angle. They'll argue he was in massive discomfort and having an episode while in the air conditioning, thus he asked to get out. I'm not saying it's true, or a jury will buy it but it seems like a straight forward path to a lesser charge than first degree murder.

Edit: I guess it's currently 2nd degree murder as booked


The autopsy report says otherwise. Says "Death by homicide."

Floyd was not under drug intoxication. He only had traces of it.


Well again traces is debatable. We have the amount. The toxicology study at the autopsy has his level at 11 ng/mL, together with 5.6 ng/mL of norfentanyl, which is what fentanyl metabolizes down to. There are 10 other things that determine metabolic rate which will fill the proceedings.

"A New Hampshire public health study on the internet of 505 fentanyl overdose deaths. The blood level ranged from 0.75 to 113 ng/mL, with a *mean* of 9.96 ng. So, Floyd had a dose somewhat higher than the average NH fentanyl overdose fatality.
Given that the data range there is 0.75 all the way up to 113, that means that the *median* level is significantly below 9.96."

So his amount is above a somewhat accepted amount for an overdose. But body weight, tolerance and other things play a factor. I imagine much of the defense will argue for the overdose + pre-existing heart disease + mental problems.

https://lawandcrime.com/george-floyd-death/authorities-just-released-george-floyds-complete-autopsy-report-read-it-here/

Floyd’s cause of death is listed officially as “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restrain, and neck compression.” The full autopsy report states further that “no life-threatening injuries [were] identified.”

But the autopsy report clearly says that he did NOT die of asphyxiation. There’s something that happens to the eyes in those cases and Floyd’s body didn’t have that. Nor was there any damage to the trachea or bruising to the neck.

Anyway, it's going to be complex. We all agree it was terrible policing. We all agree Floyd was not compliant and if he'd just gotten in the air conditioned cop car he'd be alive. I think most people wouldn't argue too much with manslaughter, mostly because you can audibly hear the man stating he can't breathe ... so ... I'm not sure what the people who think Chauvin will be innocent on everything are arguing. The other huge piece of bullcrap that will get argued to death is the restraint training guide. The cops will claim by the book use of a collectively bargained restraint.


Maybe the police should've given him a ticket to appear in court? Why did they have to escalate the drama over such a petty crime? Whether it was asphyxiation (as reported by the ME hired by the Floyd family) or the ""cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression," it's a HOMICIDE. That part is not in dispute. The following points you make are absurd on their face.

So his amount is above a somewhat accepted amount for an overdose. But body weight, tolerance and other things play a factor. I imagine much of the defense will argue for the overdose + pre-existing heart disease + mental problems.

-------------------

The full autopsy report states further that “no life-threatening injuries [were] identified.”

But the autopsy report clearly says that he did NOT die of asphyxiation. There’s something that happens to the eyes in those cases and Floyd’s body didn’t have that. Nor was there any damage to the trachea or bruising to the neck.
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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#174 » by Fat Kat » Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:30 am

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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#175 » by thebuzzardman » Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:45 pm

BallSacBounce wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
BallSacBounce wrote:This wasn't a mental health issue. He was high. In either case you also have to send the police in case he becomes dangerous. But yeah, a different type of response needs to be given.

No reason for Daniel Prude or the autistic boy to have ended up dead.

If juries won't convict on regular charges maybe we need separate cop charges for these types of things. Something has to happen to them. Something substantial.


Being high is still a mental health episode requiring professionals bc police don’t have that necessary knowledge. Also, I’m not saying that there shouldn’t be any police response. I have no problem assigning a police unit to work as part of that unit but under the direction of a professional. I should’ve made that clear.

But I appreciate you


Police only have hammers and everything looks like a nail. We are asking them to do too much when we send them to these kinds of episodes. They're still at fault for not being more caring about life but we can change things around on our end.


I believe having other people/agencies doing some of the work is the thought process.

Obviously there are functions only the police should do.
But maybe redirecting some of that money to certain social services, mental health experts, even paramedics etc, might help.
Besides the obvious of having the police enforce stupid laws and policies.

Not to look like a police apologist - there are enough sh*tty cops and a culture in many places that lets them get away with it (also Police unions), but some of this is akin to spitting on soldiers returning from Vietnam because the protestors "hated the war"

Police are being asked to enforce laws that society collectively agreed upon. Obviously there is a deep vein of racism and oppression that certain players are fine with having/have convinced the gullible is necessary

Like most big problems, there's a variety of things to be fixed and things to understand.

And I'd agree drug use/mental health and our societal approach\policing them and the vector of all 3 is one of the things that needs fixing.
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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#176 » by thebuzzardman » Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:46 pm

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Mahatma "Machine Gun" Gandhi
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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#177 » by Pointgod » Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:21 pm

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WTF is wrong with your country?
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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#178 » by Fat Kat » Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:35 pm

Pointgod wrote:
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WTF is wrong with your country?


Founded on genocide, and built on the backs of slaves. This has always been what this country is.
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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#179 » by NYKAL » Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:46 pm

fun fact, Ghandi was a racist too. Hated Black people too so **** ****
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Re: George Floyd (and aftermath): Part 2 

Post#180 » by 8516knicks » Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:05 pm

"A high school teacher suggested Kyle Rittenhouse — charged with killing two during Wisconsin protests — was a possible hero alongside Gandhi and Malcolm X" - if that's what they teach them in Texas schools (and across the red states), no wonder they're stupid enough to love Trump. Do their teachers even have GEDs?

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