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Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans

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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#241 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Wed Sep 2, 2020 3:35 am

NY 567 wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
NY 567 wrote:Still any buyers on glorified spot starter FVV after tonight? Can't make plays on bigger players, bricks open jumpers when it counts, too small to effectively bother talented bigger guards due to his size, etc. You guys really think he's worth 20 mil plus or even 15?



Yes, because he won't playing shooting guard for us, the Raptors are asking him to guard Jaylen Brown who he's done a great job on in two games. Bricks open jumpers when it matters? You talking about the same guy who drove the dagger in the Bucks hearts last year with a barrage of threes? Don't be a prisoner of the moment, he's shown what he could do in the playoffs last year and all season this year, he's missing open shots which he's shown he can make under pressure.

He's worth whatever Brogdon got, especially since his foot isn't made of cotton candy like Brogdons.


Yeah, let's talk about his playoff run last year. For the first 70% of it he was having one of the worst playoff runs of all time, we're talking historically bad. And then he got hot because that's generally what happens when you play either really good or bad, you regress to the mean. But he was still pretty bad for the most part.



He shot 39% from three on 7.4 attempts this season, and 41% on 4 attempts per game for his career, I'd say his shooting is real by now. He's missing open shots, which we saw him make all season, and during the playoffs last year. Also, have you seen what Jaylen Brown is shooting right now with Fred guarding him?

What's your opinion of Malcolm Brogdon's deal?
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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#242 » by newyorker4ever » Thu Sep 3, 2020 12:00 am

omerome wrote:
Ris_44 wrote:Any of these guys would be nice for the team's spacing. Problem is you would have to overpay for them and you never want to overpay for role players. That's the old Knick Mentality that Had us paying guys like Ellington, Payton, Portis, Gibson ect.

The difference is, we're overpaying for role players who don't suck.


No the difference is those players were one year deals and it didn't matter that we paid them a little more to come here so we could take a chance on them and see if we could put together a team that could make the 8th seed in the playoffs, even though we shouldn't of even been trying to make the playoffs but Mills was trying to save his job, but with signing some of these guys we're talking about now it's gonna be 3-4 year deals at an overpay and that's what's gonna hurt us.

J.Harris is the only one out of the 3 that i'd be comfortable overpaying on a 3-4 year contract and maybe Bertans but i don't think FVV is really all that great. He's good but not great.Rather just draft our future PG.
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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#243 » by dakomish23 » Thu Sep 3, 2020 3:47 am

Don’t do it unless you get some guys actually worth putting these guys around
:lol: :lol: :lol:

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1592147&start=1720#p57345128
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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#244 » by LookToShoot » Thu Sep 3, 2020 4:35 pm

NY 567 wrote:Still any buyers on glorified spot starter FVV after tonight? Can't make plays on bigger players, bricks open jumpers when it counts, too small to effectively bother talented bigger guards due to his size, etc. You guys really think he's worth 20 mil plus or even 15?


Hard pass. Anyone advocating for these types of signings has a love affair with average players and likely has a grudge against naturally talented players.
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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#245 » by moocow007 » Thu Sep 3, 2020 8:33 pm

FVV is the 3rd option on a top well oiled team with other 2 better offensive options (Siakam and Lowry) that would be the 1st options on the Knicks and yet he still shot just 41.3% from the field with a effective field goal % of 50.7 percent. Both are well below league average. He also is able to take gambles on defense (a big part of what makes him "good" on the defensive end) despite him owning the shortest wingspan in the NBA and not being fast or athletic cause he's got a great defensive team behind him that runs top shelf schemes that can cover if his overplay on defense fails.

For what the Knicks will likely have to pay him to get him away from the Raptors he is going to be paid as a no.1 option. I'm highly dubious that if he wasn't exactly the most efficient offensive player on a top team as a 3rd option that it will go well on a bad team like the Knicks where he'll be expected to create and shoot even more.

Yes, he can shoot 3's and he plays hard and smart. But that doesn't mean you have to go an pay him 4 years $90-123 million (which is his likely range). He does not do well creating his own shot on a team with Siakam and Lowry drawing defenders attention. That's why despite shooting 39% from 3 his FG% is only 41% and why his efg is so low. I can't imagine he'll have an easier time on the Knicks with Randle and Barrett being the alternative. Nor will he be able to gamble defensively and not leave his weaker teammates exposed defensively.

It's just worth it unless he's willing to come for cheap (and why would he do that?).

I mentioned this on a tweet about FVV. This FVV craze reminds me of the Patty Mills craze about 7 or 8 years ago. Folks (on this very board) were harping left and right about Mills being the potential solution to the Knicks PG needs. Fast forward 8 years later? Mill's has turned out to be exactly what I said he was...a role player that played well on a top team that was able to cover his weaknesses and where he can do well in a specific role. Now FVV is more talented, but he's not so talented that he can do what I think folks now are thinking he can do for the Knicks.

If the Knicks are really interested in trying to find the next FVV they may be better off using that 27th overall pick on someone like Grant Riller. Similar body, similar build, similar type of focus and feel for the game, even the same beard lol, better offensive player at the same point (Riller honestly has the greatest feel on the offensive end with the ball in his hands I've seen in a real long time). Riller isn't a defender but my argument is that FVV also wouldn't be on a team like the Knicks. Or they can draft Cole Anthony with the 8th pick (or trading down a little) if they want an inefficient offensive guy that plays hard and tough. Both would be a lot lot lot cheaper. Risk sure, but honestly I think throwing a hefty paycheck at FVV for this team is a big risk as well. FVV IMHO will get exposed as a Knick and end up taking the mantle from Julius Randle as the guy that will draw the fans ire most. It's one thing paying Cole Anthony $3-4 million a year or Riller $1.3-1.5 million a year than FVV exponentially more...especially where the Knicks are at.

Here's a clip of Riller


Lot of FVV I see in his game. Not the tallest (he's 2 inches taller than FVV), not the fastest, but his feel for changing directions attacking openings, quick reactions, all that is what makes FVV what he is on offense. Riller much better at creating shots around the basket with his crazy ability to read defenses and react to openings by changing directions and alternating hands.
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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#246 » by LookToShoot » Fri Sep 4, 2020 1:09 am

I hope FVV misses home enough and signs with the Bulls.
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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#247 » by Zerostatic » Fri Sep 4, 2020 2:08 am

OP here. There's been a lot of interesting discussion in here. Thought I suggested the idea I'm leaning against doing this. I do think we need to get a playmaking point guard and some outside shooting in here to help RJ and Mitch's development but locking up guys who are not elite talents to long term deals is not the best plan.
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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#248 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Fri Sep 4, 2020 4:47 pm

moocow007 wrote:FVV is the 3rd option on a top well oiled team with other 2 better offensive options (Siakam and Lowry) that would be the 1st options on the Knicks and yet he still shot just 41.3% from the field with a effective field goal % of 50.7 percent. Both are well below league average. He also is able to take gambles on defense (a big part of what makes him "good" on the defensive end) despite him owning the shortest wingspan in the NBA and not being fast or athletic cause he's got a great defensive team behind him that runs top shelf schemes that can cover if his overplay on defense fails.

For what the Knicks will likely have to pay him to get him away from the Raptors he is going to be paid as a no.1 option. I'm highly dubious that if he wasn't exactly the most efficient offensive player on a top team as a 3rd option that it will go well on a bad team like the Knicks where he'll be expected to create and shoot even more.

Yes, he can shoot 3's and he plays hard and smart. But that doesn't mean you have to go an pay him 4 years $90-123 million (which is his likely range). He does not do well creating his own shot on a team with Siakam and Lowry drawing defenders attention. That's why despite shooting 39% from 3 his FG% is only 41% and why his efg is so low. I can't imagine he'll have an easier time on the Knicks with Randle and Barrett being the alternative. Nor will he be able to gamble defensively and not leave his weaker teammates exposed defensively.

It's just worth it unless he's willing to come for cheap (and why would he do that?).

I mentioned this on a tweet about FVV. This FVV craze reminds me of the Patty Mills craze about 7 or 8 years ago. Folks (on this very board) were harping left and right about Mills being the potential solution to the Knicks PG needs. Fast forward 8 years later? Mill's has turned out to be exactly what I said he was...a role player that played well on a top team that was able to cover his weaknesses and where he can do well in a specific role. Now FVV is more talented, but he's not so talented that he can do what I think folks now are thinking he can do for the Knicks.

If the Knicks are really interested in trying to find the next FVV they may be better off using that 27th overall pick on someone like Grant Riller. Similar body, similar build, similar type of focus and feel for the game, even the same beard lol, better offensive player at the same point (Riller honestly has the greatest feel on the offensive end with the ball in his hands I've seen in a real long time). Riller isn't a defender but my argument is that FVV also wouldn't be on a team like the Knicks. Or they can draft Cole Anthony with the 8th pick (or trading down a little) if they want an inefficient offensive guy that plays hard and tough. Both would be a lot lot lot cheaper. Risk sure, but honestly I think throwing a hefty paycheck at FVV for this team is a big risk as well. FVV IMHO will get exposed as a Knick and end up taking the mantle from Julius Randle as the guy that will draw the fans ire most. It's one thing paying Cole Anthony $3-4 million a year or Riller $1.3-1.5 million a year than FVV exponentially more...especially where the Knicks are at.

Here's a clip of Riller


Lot of FVV I see in his game. Not the tallest (he's 2 inches taller than FVV), not the fastest, but his feel for changing directions attacking openings, quick reactions, all that is what makes FVV what he is on offense. Riller much better at creating shots around the basket with his crazy ability to read defenses and react to openings by changing directions and alternating hands.



Fred is worth whatever Malcolm Brogdon got, he's more durable and doesn't have a bad foot like Malcolm. This is a good post, but it focuses almost exclusively on offense, when Fred is one of the better 2 way PG's in the league. There's no telling whether or not Riller can defend, what we do know about Fred is that despite being 6'0" he's being asked to guard legitimate shooting guards and doing an exceptional job. If his defense weren't very good Stevens would target him, but despite his size he can hold his own with players 6-8" taller and in the case of Jaylen Brown he's giving up 30 pounds. If you see a lot of Fred's game in Riller it's only because you're looking at offense, they aren't the same on defense and most likely never will be.

As for the money, I just don't see the problem with going after him, it's like when the Sixers signed JJ Redick, most of our guys will be on rookie deals for several years. The Sixers gave Redick who was 33 years old 2 years $36 million, because it helped with their team culture, didn't get hurt their cap and addressed the need for shooting. I wouldn't want to draft any of the PGs in this draft outside of Haliburton, I'd want wings or Wiseman and I'd feel a lot more comfortable with Fred on a 4 year $80-85 million deal than I would with any the PGs at the spot we're drafting at.
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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#249 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Sun Sep 6, 2020 4:04 am

I think the odds of us signing him are dropping, he's without question the 3rd best player on a good playoff team. His defense this series has been fantastic, and while he's not shooting great he's doing every thing else running the offense and setting people up. I get the feeling people on here are only concerned with offense, but to me it's pretty clear now Fred is to Lowry what Young was to Montana. He's very obviously the second coming of Lowry and has basically turned himself into Lowry 2.0, a master of the little things and winning plays that don't always show up in the boxscore.
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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#250 » by RHODEY » Sun Sep 6, 2020 4:15 am

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
NY 567 wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:

Yes, because he won't playing shooting guard for us, the Raptors are asking him to guard Jaylen Brown who he's done a great job on in two games. Bricks open jumpers when it matters? You talking about the same guy who drove the dagger in the Bucks hearts last year with a barrage of threes? Don't be a prisoner of the moment, he's shown what he could do in the playoffs last year and all season this year, he's missing open shots which he's shown he can make under pressure.

He's worth whatever Brogdon got, especially since his foot isn't made of cotton candy like Brogdons.


Yeah, let's talk about his playoff run last year. For the first 70% of it he was having one of the worst playoff runs of all time, we're talking historically bad. And then he got hot because that's generally what happens when you play either really good or bad, you regress to the mean. But he was still pretty bad for the most part.



He shot 39% from three on 7.4 attempts this season, and 41% on 4 attempts per game for his career, I'd say his shooting is real by now. He's missing open shots, which we saw him make all season, and during the playoffs last year. Also, have you seen what Jaylen Brown is shooting right now with Fred guarding him?

What's your opinion of Malcolm Brogdon's deal?


I'd rather have Lowry, age be damned. I like Van Fleets but I suspect his flaws will be exposed bigtime on our team.
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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#251 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Sun Sep 6, 2020 4:45 am

RHODEY wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
NY 567 wrote:
Yeah, let's talk about his playoff run last year. For the first 70% of it he was having one of the worst playoff runs of all time, we're talking historically bad. And then he got hot because that's generally what happens when you play either really good or bad, you regress to the mean. But he was still pretty bad for the most part.



He shot 39% from three on 7.4 attempts this season, and 41% on 4 attempts per game for his career, I'd say his shooting is real by now. He's missing open shots, which we saw him make all season, and during the playoffs last year. Also, have you seen what Jaylen Brown is shooting right now with Fred guarding him?

What's your opinion of Malcolm Brogdon's deal?


I'd rather have Lowry, age be damned. I like Van Fleets but I suspect his flaws will be exposed bigtime on our team.


I really don't see how, the Raptors don't have much of a halfcourt offense, it's not like he's getting set up for easy buckets as only 41% of his shots were assisted during the season. He's playing 40+ mpg in a playoff series against the 4th best defense in the league and hasn't defensively he hasn't been exposed even though the Celtics have two big wings that should be able to punish him. Assuming Mitch starts and is as good as everyone says, that would give Fred someone to play PnR with, right? Gasol and Ibaka are really no threats rolling to the rim anymore.

In what way would he get exposed? Thibs system has always been kind to guards, and the way I view Fred is short term he's our 2nd best player behind RJ, long term he becomes our 3rd or 4th best player which means we've been making the right moves.
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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#252 » by RHODEY » Sun Sep 6, 2020 4:41 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:

He shot 39% from three on 7.4 attempts this season, and 41% on 4 attempts per game for his career, I'd say his shooting is real by now. He's missing open shots, which we saw him make all season, and during the playoffs last year. Also, have you seen what Jaylen Brown is shooting right now with Fred guarding him?

What's your opinion of Malcolm Brogdon's deal?


I'd rather have Lowry, age be damned. I like Van Fleets but I suspect his flaws will be exposed bigtime on our team.


I really don't see how, the Raptors don't have much of a halfcourt offense, it's not like he's getting set up for easy buckets as only 41% of his shots were assisted during the season. He's playing 40+ mpg in a playoff series against the 4th best defense in the league and hasn't defensively he hasn't been exposed even though the Celtics have two big wings that should be able to punish him. Assuming Mitch starts and is as good as everyone says, that would give Fred someone to play PnR with, right? Gasol and Ibaka are really no threats rolling to the rim anymore.

In what way would he get exposed? Thibs system has always been kind to guards, and the way I view Fred is short term he's our 2nd best player behind RJ, long term he becomes our 3rd or 4th best player which means we've been making the right moves.


Exposed meaning you just cant throw 20 million + at a player like him, he's not that good, small, not athletic, not that efficient... works for the raps wouldn't work for us at that price.
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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#253 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Sun Sep 6, 2020 4:52 pm

RHODEY wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
I'd rather have Lowry, age be damned. I like Van Fleets but I suspect his flaws will be exposed bigtime on our team.


I really don't see how, the Raptors don't have much of a halfcourt offense, it's not like he's getting set up for easy buckets as only 41% of his shots were assisted during the season. He's playing 40+ mpg in a playoff series against the 4th best defense in the league and hasn't defensively he hasn't been exposed even though the Celtics have two big wings that should be able to punish him. Assuming Mitch starts and is as good as everyone says, that would give Fred someone to play PnR with, right? Gasol and Ibaka are really no threats rolling to the rim anymore.

In what way would he get exposed? Thibs system has always been kind to guards, and the way I view Fred is short term he's our 2nd best player behind RJ, long term he becomes our 3rd or 4th best player which means we've been making the right moves.


Exposed meaning you just cant throw 20 million + at a player like him, he's not that good, small, not athletic, not that efficient... works for the raps wouldn't work for us at that price.



The Raptors are going to throw that money at him to retain him, yet he's somehow not worth it for us? He's the 3rd best player on a team that might get to the ECF, so I don't understand this thought process to be honest. The Bucks didn't think Malcolm Brogdon was worth 4 years $85 million, they were wrong and should have paid him, he's worth every penny of that money to the Pacers and would have helped the Bucks immensely in this series.

He's averaging 20ppg, 7apg, 4rpg, 2spg on 41% FG and 42% from three on 10 attempts a game for the playoffs, how is this not that good? His defense on Levert was excellent, his defense on Smart, Brown and Tatum in this series has been excellent. Nick Nurse is playing him 42mpg against the Celtics, so if he's good enough to play in a series like this, how is he not good for us? He'd be making slightly more than Randle for 1 more year, I really dont see the problem since most of our players will be on rookie deals for several years.
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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#254 » by WargamesX » Sun Sep 6, 2020 7:36 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
I really don't see how, the Raptors don't have much of a halfcourt offense, it's not like he's getting set up for easy buckets as only 41% of his shots were assisted during the season. He's playing 40+ mpg in a playoff series against the 4th best defense in the league and hasn't defensively he hasn't been exposed even though the Celtics have two big wings that should be able to punish him. Assuming Mitch starts and is as good as everyone says, that would give Fred someone to play PnR with, right? Gasol and Ibaka are really no threats rolling to the rim anymore.

In what way would he get exposed? Thibs system has always been kind to guards, and the way I view Fred is short term he's our 2nd best player behind RJ, long term he becomes our 3rd or 4th best player which means we've been making the right moves.


Exposed meaning you just cant throw 20 million + at a player like him, he's not that good, small, not athletic, not that efficient... works for the raps wouldn't work for us at that price.



The Raptors are going to throw that money at him to retain him, yet he's somehow not worth it for us? He's the 3rd best player on a team that might get to the ECF, so I don't understand this thought process to be honest. The Bucks didn't think Malcolm Brogdon was worth 4 years $85 million, they were wrong and should have paid him, he's worth every penny of that money to the Pacers and would have helped the Bucks immensely in this series.

He's averaging 20ppg, 7apg, 4rpg, 2spg on 41% FG and 42% from three on 10 attempts a game for the playoffs, how is this not that good? His defense on Levert was excellent, his defense on Smart, Brown and Tatum in this series has been excellent. Nick Nurse is playing him 42mpg against the Celtics, so if he's good enough to play in a series like this, how is he not good for us? He'd be making slightly more than Randle for 1 more year, I really dont see the problem since most of our players will be on rookie deals for several years.


Here’s my issue..... we know the raptors are going to throw the money at him. Why would he come to the Knicks?
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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#255 » by RHODEY » Mon Sep 7, 2020 12:05 am

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
I really don't see how, the Raptors don't have much of a halfcourt offense, it's not like he's getting set up for easy buckets as only 41% of his shots were assisted during the season. He's playing 40+ mpg in a playoff series against the 4th best defense in the league and hasn't defensively he hasn't been exposed even though the Celtics have two big wings that should be able to punish him. Assuming Mitch starts and is as good as everyone says, that would give Fred someone to play PnR with, right? Gasol and Ibaka are really no threats rolling to the rim anymore.

In what way would he get exposed? Thibs system has always been kind to guards, and the way I view Fred is short term he's our 2nd best player behind RJ, long term he becomes our 3rd or 4th best player which means we've been making the right moves.


Exposed meaning you just cant throw 20 million + at a player like him, he's not that good, small, not athletic, not that efficient... works for the raps wouldn't work for us at that price.



The Raptors are going to throw that money at him to retain him, yet he's somehow not worth it for us? He's the 3rd best player on a team that might get to the ECF, so I don't understand this thought process to be honest. The Bucks didn't think Malcolm Brogdon was worth 4 years $85 million, they were wrong and should have paid him, he's worth every penny of that money to the Pacers and would have helped the Bucks immensely in this series.

He's averaging 20ppg, 7apg, 4rpg, 2spg on 41% FG and 42% from three on 10 attempts a game for the playoffs, how is this not that good? His defense on Levert was excellent, his defense on Smart, Brown and Tatum in this series has been excellent. Nick Nurse is playing him 42mpg against the Celtics, so if he's good enough to play in a series like this, how is he not good for us? He'd be making slightly more than Randle for 1 more year, I really dont see the problem since most of our players will be on rookie deals for several years.



It is good (except for the 41% FG) but the question to ask is , is that transferable to the Knicks during our rebuild? In a vacuum what you get from him would probably still be solid ...but it would come with a near franchise level price tag.
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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#256 » by KnicksGadfly » Mon Sep 7, 2020 12:18 am

Some of you guys need to get your standards checked.

FVV is getting 40 plus minutes a game, playing stellar defense, shooting well from three, not that great overall, not high volume. This is where the numbers for 20+ million come from. Some of you guys are slurping THJ and Randle so hard...take a good look. This is what a real 3rd option looks like. Do you see how this guy can actually play with Lebron, Giannis, Harden, Jokic, Embiid, Simmons, etc?

Now some of you guys are going to criticize FVV for not performing better in the playoffs. My argument is if FVV is playing 40 plus minutes, playing stellar defense, hitting threes and scoring on more efficient volume on the court as a higher option, then he's getting a 30 million max, no question about it.
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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#257 » by Da_Mane_Man » Mon Sep 7, 2020 12:22 am

moocow007 wrote:FVV is the 3rd option on a top well oiled team with other 2 better offensive options (Siakam and Lowry) that would be the 1st options on the Knicks and yet he still shot just 41.3% from the field with a effective field goal % of 50.7 percent. Both are well below league average. He also is able to take gambles on defense (a big part of what makes him "good" on the defensive end) despite him owning the shortest wingspan in the NBA and not being fast or athletic cause he's got a great defensive team behind him that runs top shelf schemes that can cover if his overplay on defense fails.

For what the Knicks will likely have to pay him to get him away from the Raptors he is going to be paid as a no.1 option. I'm highly dubious that if he wasn't exactly the most efficient offensive player on a top team as a 3rd option that it will go well on a bad team like the Knicks where he'll be expected to create and shoot even more.

Yes, he can shoot 3's and he plays hard and smart. But that doesn't mean you have to go an pay him 4 years $90-123 million (which is his likely range). He does not do well creating his own shot on a team with Siakam and Lowry drawing defenders attention. That's why despite shooting 39% from 3 his FG% is only 41% and why his efg is so low. I can't imagine he'll have an easier time on the Knicks with Randle and Barrett being the alternative. Nor will he be able to gamble defensively and not leave his weaker teammates exposed defensively.

It's just worth it unless he's willing to come for cheap (and why would he do that?).

I mentioned this on a tweet about FVV. This FVV craze reminds me of the Patty Mills craze about 7 or 8 years ago. Folks (on this very board) were harping left and right about Mills being the potential solution to the Knicks PG needs. Fast forward 8 years later? Mill's has turned out to be exactly what I said he was...a role player that played well on a top team that was able to cover his weaknesses and where he can do well in a specific role. Now FVV is more talented, but he's not so talented that he can do what I think folks now are thinking he can do for the Knicks.

If the Knicks are really interested in trying to find the next FVV they may be better off using that 27th overall pick on someone like Grant Riller. Similar body, similar build, similar type of focus and feel for the game, even the same beard lol, better offensive player at the same point (Riller honestly has the greatest feel on the offensive end with the ball in his hands I've seen in a real long time). Riller isn't a defender but my argument is that FVV also wouldn't be on a team like the Knicks. Or they can draft Cole Anthony with the 8th pick (or trading down a little) if they want an inefficient offensive guy that plays hard and tough. Both would be a lot lot lot cheaper. Risk sure, but honestly I think throwing a hefty paycheck at FVV for this team is a big risk as well. FVV IMHO will get exposed as a Knick and end up taking the mantle from Julius Randle as the guy that will draw the fans ire most. It's one thing paying Cole Anthony $3-4 million a year or Riller $1.3-1.5 million a year than FVV exponentially more...especially where the Knicks are at.

Here's a clip of Riller


Lot of FVV I see in his game. Not the tallest (he's 2 inches taller than FVV), not the fastest, but his feel for changing directions attacking openings, quick reactions, all that is what makes FVV what he is on offense. Riller much better at creating shots around the basket with his crazy ability to read defenses and react to openings by changing directions and alternating hands.


This. I've been thinking about it as I watch some Raptors games and there's no way the Knicks should pay him what he'll be asking for. Honestly, his best bet is to either stay put, or go to another team with a similar structure. He just can't be a top 2 guy on a playoff team in this league. If the Knicks do pay him, then it'll be the same sh*t we've been putting up with for the last 2 decades, just in a different package. FVV is a guy you go get when you have at LEAST 2 stars on your team, maybe 3. Otherwise, you'd have to have a true TEAM like the raptors do, or the pistons back in the day with no real stars, just a bunch of guys who mesh well and play together. We are nowhere near any of those 2 scenarios lol. And we won't be there in 1 offseason either. So let's just chill and not blow our load immediately. Rose and co should be looking to patiently build here over the course of a few years.
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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#258 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Mon Sep 7, 2020 1:57 am

RHODEY wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
Exposed meaning you just cant throw 20 million + at a player like him, he's not that good, small, not athletic, not that efficient... works for the raps wouldn't work for us at that price.



The Raptors are going to throw that money at him to retain him, yet he's somehow not worth it for us? He's the 3rd best player on a team that might get to the ECF, so I don't understand this thought process to be honest. The Bucks didn't think Malcolm Brogdon was worth 4 years $85 million, they were wrong and should have paid him, he's worth every penny of that money to the Pacers and would have helped the Bucks immensely in this series.

He's averaging 20ppg, 7apg, 4rpg, 2spg on 41% FG and 42% from three on 10 attempts a game for the playoffs, how is this not that good? His defense on Levert was excellent, his defense on Smart, Brown and Tatum in this series has been excellent. Nick Nurse is playing him 42mpg against the Celtics, so if he's good enough to play in a series like this, how is he not good for us? He'd be making slightly more than Randle for 1 more year, I really dont see the problem since most of our players will be on rookie deals for several years.



It is good (except for the 41% FG) but the question to ask is , is that transferable to the Knicks during our rebuild? In a vacuum what you get from him would probably still be solid ...but it would come with a near franchise level price tag.



He's taking 10 threes a game in the playoffs, more than half his shots are threes, that 41% FG percentage is fine especially when half of those threes are off the dribble.

Yes, everything he does is transferable to another team, he's at 48.8% on catch and shoot threes in the playoffs, that is 3rd in the playoffs behind Joe Harris and Robert Covington for guys who take more than 5 catch and shoot threes per game. During the season he was 7th in the league for catch and shoot threes for guys who took 3 or more per game, the best was Seth Curry at 48%, while Fred shot 44% on the season. Right now the Raptors are asking him to take a lot of his threes off the dribble, he can do it, but against the Celtics defense it's more difficult and yet that still hasn't stopped him from having an impact. His offense against the Celtics hasn't been great, but the playmaking and defense has still made him an impact player. I don't see how his strengths aren't transferable, 3 point shooting, defense and playmaking are all things we need, how nice would it be to get it all in 1 player?

So, we have a player that is a statistically great catch and shoot three point shooter, who can also create off the dribble and defend. Just to put it in perspective, a lot of people on here want Joe Harris right? Joe Harris shot 44.6% on catch and shoot threes to Fred's 44% on almost the same volume (4.5 vs 3.9). So, if so many people want Joe and all these other shooters, why don't they want shooter that can defend and run offense?

He is worth every penny to bring stability to the PG position, on ball playmaking, off ball shooting and defense to a position. He doesn't even stop you from drafting a PG because he can play as a small SG when he doesn't have the ball.
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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#259 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Mon Sep 7, 2020 2:02 am

WargamesX wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
Exposed meaning you just cant throw 20 million + at a player like him, he's not that good, small, not athletic, not that efficient... works for the raps wouldn't work for us at that price.



The Raptors are going to throw that money at him to retain him, yet he's somehow not worth it for us? He's the 3rd best player on a team that might get to the ECF, so I don't understand this thought process to be honest. The Bucks didn't think Malcolm Brogdon was worth 4 years $85 million, they were wrong and should have paid him, he's worth every penny of that money to the Pacers and would have helped the Bucks immensely in this series.

He's averaging 20ppg, 7apg, 4rpg, 2spg on 41% FG and 42% from three on 10 attempts a game for the playoffs, how is this not that good? His defense on Levert was excellent, his defense on Smart, Brown and Tatum in this series has been excellent. Nick Nurse is playing him 42mpg against the Celtics, so if he's good enough to play in a series like this, how is he not good for us? He'd be making slightly more than Randle for 1 more year, I really dont see the problem since most of our players will be on rookie deals for several years.


Here’s my issue..... we know the raptors are going to throw the money at him. Why would he come to the Knicks?



Hopefully, we can poison pill it and mess up their capspace for 2021 if they try to match it. I said up above that the more he plays, the harder it becomes to get him because of how important he is to the Raps, but I hope we make a hard push to get him.
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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#260 » by KnicksGadfly » Mon Sep 7, 2020 2:36 am

moocow007 wrote:FVV is the 3rd option on a top well oiled team with other 2 better offensive options (Siakam and Lowry) that would be the 1st options on the Knicks and yet he still shot just 41.3% from the field with a effective field goal % of 50.7 percent. Both are well below league average. He also is able to take gambles on defense (a big part of what makes him "good" on the defensive end) despite him owning the shortest wingspan in the NBA and not being fast or athletic cause he's got a great defensive team behind him that runs top shelf schemes that can cover if his overplay on defense fails.

For what the Knicks will likely have to pay him to get him away from the Raptors he is going to be paid as a no.1 option. I'm highly dubious that if he wasn't exactly the most efficient offensive player on a top team as a 3rd option that it will go well on a bad team like the Knicks where he'll be expected to create and shoot even more.

Yes, he can shoot 3's and he plays hard and smart. But that doesn't mean you have to go an pay him 4 years $90-123 million (which is his likely range). He does not do well creating his own shot on a team with Siakam and Lowry drawing defenders attention. That's why despite shooting 39% from 3 his FG% is only 41% and why his efg is so low. I can't imagine he'll have an easier time on the Knicks with Randle and Barrett being the alternative. Nor will he be able to gamble defensively and not leave his weaker teammates exposed defensively.

It's just worth it unless he's willing to come for cheap (and why would he do that?).

I mentioned this on a tweet about FVV. This FVV craze reminds me of the Patty Mills craze about 7 or 8 years ago. Folks (on this very board) were harping left and right about Mills being the potential solution to the Knicks PG needs. Fast forward 8 years later? Mill's has turned out to be exactly what I said he was...a role player that played well on a top team that was able to cover his weaknesses and where he can do well in a specific role. Now FVV is more talented, but he's not so talented that he can do what I think folks now are thinking he can do for the Knicks.

If the Knicks are really interested in trying to find the next FVV they may be better off using that 27th overall pick on someone like Grant Riller. Similar body, similar build, similar type of focus and feel for the game, even the same beard lol, better offensive player at the same point (Riller honestly has the greatest feel on the offensive end with the ball in his hands I've seen in a real long time). Riller isn't a defender but my argument is that FVV also wouldn't be on a team like the Knicks. Or they can draft Cole Anthony with the 8th pick (or trading down a little) if they want an inefficient offensive guy that plays hard and tough. Both would be a lot lot lot cheaper. Risk sure, but honestly I think throwing a hefty paycheck at FVV for this team is a big risk as well. FVV IMHO will get exposed as a Knick and end up taking the mantle from Julius Randle as the guy that will draw the fans ire most. It's one thing paying Cole Anthony $3-4 million a year or Riller $1.3-1.5 million a year than FVV exponentially more...especially where the Knicks are at.

Here's a clip of Riller


Lot of FVV I see in his game. Not the tallest (he's 2 inches taller than FVV), not the fastest, but his feel for changing directions attacking openings, quick reactions, all that is what makes FVV what he is on offense. Riller much better at creating shots around the basket with his crazy ability to read defenses and react to openings by changing directions and alternating hands.


If Riller is FVV, I wouldn't mind drafting him 8th. At the very least, he needs to be considered higher in the lotto, considering how people talk about how this is a weak draft.

From my end, 90-123 mill is a huge range, and yea, if it does get up to 123, then we need to step back. From my end, I doubt teams will go that high, especially in this era of cap uncertainty. And others are right in that maybe FVV will need a huge overpay to come to New York, but we don't know that yet and if that happens, then you just let it go. The main question for me: if FVV comes over, let's say in a 90-95 mill contract, then will we consider that or not? From my end, we are paying Randle, Portis, Taj, Ellington, Payton and a bunch of bums a lot of money to get us zero, minimum or negative production. Let's say we consolidate Randle and Payton's money and dump their asses, and use that money to pay FVV. That leaves us with enough money left over to do what else we need to do. If we have a roster with rookie contracts, salary dumps and FVV, that, to me, is fine.

I find this argument that fans will get pissed if FVV fails as the 1st option a bit dubious. Have you seen anybody advocating FVV as the 1st option and savior for the Knicks? I haven't really seen that here. Yea, he would be the defacto 1st option here if we signed him here, but the difference is with expectations---I think we'd be expecting a more scrappy Knicks team that would fight for the 8th seed. I do not think anybody advocating the signing of FVV is expecting a 6th seed or above.

The main point of FVV If we signed him would be that he would be a placeholder as a 1st option, especially if we brought in Leon Rose to big-game hunt. You brought up Randle, but can anyone foresee Randle playing in these playoff games today? A third option for the Raptors against the Celtics? Maybe coming off the bench for Clippers? You think he wouldn't be hunted to hell by Golden State in a playoff series or destroyed by Draymond Green? Let's say the Knicks are pitching Giannis in 2021 FA. You think Giannis is gonna be able to share the court with Randle? Do we see Randle as being able to help a rebuild? The main thing with Randle is that 1) he's a 7th man or worse, and 2) he has no future here. We can't build a contender with him eating money on the roster and he sure isn't helping our youth. Moreover, with FVV, you literally could tell him to stand in the corner for 24 seconds on offense and teams would need to account for him. That plays wonders with RJ and Mitch. I can imagine FVV being brought up to any FA as a plus for the Knicks.

I'll admit that FVV is not going to be amazing as the 1st option, but this is how I imagine a team like this would go:

PG: FVV
SG: Frank/Bullock/Dotson or whoever else jumps in. Saw Justin Holiday or something (not thrilled with that).
SF: Barrett
PF: Not Randle, but I think there will be intriguing options. Someone scrappy.
C: Mitch

I think Thibs can work with this. That's a team that can fight for a lower seed by going all out and playing ugly but hustling basketball. It won't be a cap killer, and I think we should have money leftover to pursue the FAs. Defensively, they ain't Toronto, but they ain't shat either. And most of those guys, Bullock, Mitch, FVV, can play roles on any contender and with most stars. Barrett, the jury is out on, but he has time.
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