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Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans

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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#261 » by moocow007 » Mon Sep 7, 2020 6:49 am

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:I think the odds of us signing him are dropping, he's without question the 3rd best player on a good playoff team. His defense this series has been fantastic, and while he's not shooting great he's doing every thing else running the offense and setting people up. I get the feeling people on here are only concerned with offense, but to me it's pretty clear now Fred is to Lowry what Young was to Montana. He's very obviously the second coming of Lowry and has basically turned himself into Lowry 2.0, a master of the little things and winning plays that don't always show up in the boxscore.


He plays physical defense, he tries and he takes gambles. On a great defensive team that's fine. On a team like the Knicks he's not going to be able to do that without getting his teammates exposed. MAYBE with Thibs in charge that would be less of an issue and he can continue to do what he's doing defensively in Toronto. Big MAYBE. For the Knicks to get him out of Toronto they are going to have to pay a premium and tying big dollars on an inefficient 3rd option isn't what they need to do. He can be the "master of little things" cause he's got 2 guys that the Knicks don't have that are better than him (including one top 10-12 player) to back him up. Unless the Knick can get him some help he will become an anchor on the treadmill.
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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#262 » by RHODEY » Mon Sep 7, 2020 8:26 am

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:

The Raptors are going to throw that money at him to retain him, yet he's somehow not worth it for us? He's the 3rd best player on a team that might get to the ECF, so I don't understand this thought process to be honest. The Bucks didn't think Malcolm Brogdon was worth 4 years $85 million, they were wrong and should have paid him, he's worth every penny of that money to the Pacers and would have helped the Bucks immensely in this series.

He's averaging 20ppg, 7apg, 4rpg, 2spg on 41% FG and 42% from three on 10 attempts a game for the playoffs, how is this not that good? His defense on Levert was excellent, his defense on Smart, Brown and Tatum in this series has been excellent. Nick Nurse is playing him 42mpg against the Celtics, so if he's good enough to play in a series like this, how is he not good for us? He'd be making slightly more than Randle for 1 more year, I really dont see the problem since most of our players will be on rookie deals for several years.



It is good (except for the 41% FG) but the question to ask is , is that transferable to the Knicks during our rebuild? In a vacuum what you get from him would probably still be solid ...but it would come with a near franchise level price tag.



He's taking 10 threes a game in the playoffs, more than half his shots are threes, that 41% FG percentage is fine especially when half of those threes are off the dribble.

Yes, everything he does is transferable to another team, he's at 48.8% on catch and shoot threes in the playoffs, that is 3rd in the playoffs behind Joe Harris and Robert Covington for guys who take more than 5 catch and shoot threes per game. During the season he was 7th in the league for catch and shoot threes for guys who took 3 or more per game, the best was Seth Curry at 48%, while Fred shot 44% on the season. Right now the Raptors are asking him to take a lot of his threes off the dribble, he can do it, but against the Celtics defense it's more difficult and yet that still hasn't stopped him from having an impact. His offense against the Celtics hasn't been great, but the playmaking and defense has still made him an impact player. I don't see how his strengths aren't transferable, 3 point shooting, defense and playmaking are all things we need, how nice would it be to get it all in 1 player?

So, we have a player that is a statistically great catch and shoot three point shooter, who can also create off the dribble and defend. Just to put it in perspective, a lot of people on here want Joe Harris right? Joe Harris shot 44.6% on catch and shoot threes to Fred's 44% on almost the same volume (4.5 vs 3.9). So, if so many people want Joe and all these other shooters, why don't they want shooter that can defend and run offense?

He is worth every penny to bring stability to the PG position, on ball playmaking, off ball shooting and defense to a position. He doesn't even stop you from drafting a PG because he can play as a small SG when he doesn't have the ball.


So you think he's worth a near max contract? To me he's like a rich man's Charllie Ward. A very good stabilizing PG who is small but defends well and is a good 3pt shooter , but that's not something I would hand out allstar level money to.
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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#263 » by blanko » Mon Sep 7, 2020 8:44 am

RHODEY wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
RHODEY wrote:

It is good (except for the 41% FG) but the question to ask is , is that transferable to the Knicks during our rebuild? In a vacuum what you get from him would probably still be solid ...but it would come with a near franchise level price tag.



He's taking 10 threes a game in the playoffs, more than half his shots are threes, that 41% FG percentage is fine especially when half of those threes are off the dribble.

Yes, everything he does is transferable to another team, he's at 48.8% on catch and shoot threes in the playoffs, that is 3rd in the playoffs behind Joe Harris and Robert Covington for guys who take more than 5 catch and shoot threes per game. During the season he was 7th in the league for catch and shoot threes for guys who took 3 or more per game, the best was Seth Curry at 48%, while Fred shot 44% on the season. Right now the Raptors are asking him to take a lot of his threes off the dribble, he can do it, but against the Celtics defense it's more difficult and yet that still hasn't stopped him from having an impact. His offense against the Celtics hasn't been great, but the playmaking and defense has still made him an impact player. I don't see how his strengths aren't transferable, 3 point shooting, defense and playmaking are all things we need, how nice would it be to get it all in 1 player?

So, we have a player that is a statistically great catch and shoot three point shooter, who can also create off the dribble and defend. Just to put it in perspective, a lot of people on here want Joe Harris right? Joe Harris shot 44.6% on catch and shoot threes to Fred's 44% on almost the same volume (4.5 vs 3.9). So, if so many people want Joe and all these other shooters, why don't they want shooter that can defend and run offense?

He is worth every penny to bring stability to the PG position, on ball playmaking, off ball shooting and defense to a position. He doesn't even stop you from drafting a PG because he can play as a small SG when he doesn't have the ball.


So you think he's worth a near max contract? To me he's like a rich man's Charllie Ward. A very good stabilizing PG who is small but defends well and is a good 3pt shooter , but that's not something I would hand out allstar level money to.
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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#264 » by -YogiBiz- » Mon Sep 7, 2020 10:54 am

This board is so weird. They would rather give up the farm for a guy who shot 36% & 25% from 3 against G-League wash outs, but don’t want to just pay a guy that brings everything to the table that we need.
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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#265 » by RHODEY » Mon Sep 7, 2020 3:11 pm

blanko wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:

He's taking 10 threes a game in the playoffs, more than half his shots are threes, that 41% FG percentage is fine especially when half of those threes are off the dribble.

Yes, everything he does is transferable to another team, he's at 48.8% on catch and shoot threes in the playoffs, that is 3rd in the playoffs behind Joe Harris and Robert Covington for guys who take more than 5 catch and shoot threes per game. During the season he was 7th in the league for catch and shoot threes for guys who took 3 or more per game, the best was Seth Curry at 48%, while Fred shot 44% on the season. Right now the Raptors are asking him to take a lot of his threes off the dribble, he can do it, but against the Celtics defense it's more difficult and yet that still hasn't stopped him from having an impact. His offense against the Celtics hasn't been great, but the playmaking and defense has still made him an impact player. I don't see how his strengths aren't transferable, 3 point shooting, defense and playmaking are all things we need, how nice would it be to get it all in 1 player?

So, we have a player that is a statistically great catch and shoot three point shooter, who can also create off the dribble and defend. Just to put it in perspective, a lot of people on here want Joe Harris right? Joe Harris shot 44.6% on catch and shoot threes to Fred's 44% on almost the same volume (4.5 vs 3.9). So, if so many people want Joe and all these other shooters, why don't they want shooter that can defend and run offense?

He is worth every penny to bring stability to the PG position, on ball playmaking, off ball shooting and defense to a position. He doesn't even stop you from drafting a PG because he can play as a small SG when he doesn't have the ball.


So you think he's worth a near max contract? To me he's like a rich man's Charllie Ward. A very good stabilizing PG who is small but defends well and is a good 3pt shooter , but that's not something I would hand out allstar level money to.
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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#266 » by RHODEY » Mon Sep 7, 2020 3:14 pm

-YogiBiz- wrote:This board is so weird. They would rather give up the farm for a guy who shot 36% & 25% from 3 against G-League wash outs, but don’t want to just pay a guy that brings everything to the table that we need.

Not sure what player you're referring to but the question is whether vanfleet would be worth what it would cost to get him. IMO certainly not.
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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#267 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Mon Sep 7, 2020 4:13 pm

moocow007 wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:I think the odds of us signing him are dropping, he's without question the 3rd best player on a good playoff team. His defense this series has been fantastic, and while he's not shooting great he's doing every thing else running the offense and setting people up. I get the feeling people on here are only concerned with offense, but to me it's pretty clear now Fred is to Lowry what Young was to Montana. He's very obviously the second coming of Lowry and has basically turned himself into Lowry 2.0, a master of the little things and winning plays that don't always show up in the boxscore.


He plays physical defense, he tries and he takes gambles. On a great defensive team that's fine. On a team like the Knicks he's not going to be able to do that without getting his teammates exposed. MAYBE with Thibs in charge that would be less of an issue and he can continue to do what he's doing defensively in Toronto. Big MAYBE. For the Knicks to get him out of Toronto they are going to have to pay a premium and tying big dollars on an inefficient 3rd option isn't what they need to do. He can be the "master of little things" cause he's got 2 guys that the Knicks don't have that are better than him (including one top 10-12 player) to back him up. Unless the Knick can get him some help he will become an anchor on the treadmill.



He's simply a good defender, if he weren't Brad Stevens would target him relentlessly. A good team defense still needs good individual defenders, especially in such a switch heavy league. The fact the Raptors are starting such a small backcourt should tell you everything you need to know about Fred defensively. I don't mind paying the premium for Fred, because at the end of the day it's only slightly more on a yearly basis than Julius Randle, it's just an extra year tacked on. The long term idea of signing Fred is that he wont be our 2nd best player 2-3 years from now, that is the vision I have for him and why I want him, because I do think we're going to turn a corner and if Fred is our 3rd best player we're doing something right.
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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#268 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Mon Sep 7, 2020 4:20 pm

RHODEY wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
RHODEY wrote:

It is good (except for the 41% FG) but the question to ask is , is that transferable to the Knicks during our rebuild? In a vacuum what you get from him would probably still be solid ...but it would come with a near franchise level price tag.



He's taking 10 threes a game in the playoffs, more than half his shots are threes, that 41% FG percentage is fine especially when half of those threes are off the dribble.

Yes, everything he does is transferable to another team, he's at 48.8% on catch and shoot threes in the playoffs, that is 3rd in the playoffs behind Joe Harris and Robert Covington for guys who take more than 5 catch and shoot threes per game. During the season he was 7th in the league for catch and shoot threes for guys who took 3 or more per game, the best was Seth Curry at 48%, while Fred shot 44% on the season. Right now the Raptors are asking him to take a lot of his threes off the dribble, he can do it, but against the Celtics defense it's more difficult and yet that still hasn't stopped him from having an impact. His offense against the Celtics hasn't been great, but the playmaking and defense has still made him an impact player. I don't see how his strengths aren't transferable, 3 point shooting, defense and playmaking are all things we need, how nice would it be to get it all in 1 player?

So, we have a player that is a statistically great catch and shoot three point shooter, who can also create off the dribble and defend. Just to put it in perspective, a lot of people on here want Joe Harris right? Joe Harris shot 44.6% on catch and shoot threes to Fred's 44% on almost the same volume (4.5 vs 3.9). So, if so many people want Joe and all these other shooters, why don't they want shooter that can defend and run offense?

He is worth every penny to bring stability to the PG position, on ball playmaking, off ball shooting and defense to a position. He doesn't even stop you from drafting a PG because he can play as a small SG when he doesn't have the ball.


So you think he's worth a near max contract? To me he's like a rich man's Charllie Ward. A very good stabilizing PG who is small but defends well and is a good 3pt shooter , but that's not something I would hand out allstar level money to.



Charlie Ward playoff stats as a starter

6.7ppg 4.3apg 3.1rpg

Come on man, he's not a rich man's Charlie Ward, you can say he's a poor man's Kyle Lowry, because almost all of his stats from the last two seasons look like Lowry's at the same age. But it's just disrespect to compare Fred to Ward in any way.


Yes, I'd be willing to give him whatever it takes to get him out of Toronto because it would finally mean we have a PG for the next several years. It would mean we don't have to hold out hope that whatever PG we draft this year develops into a player. I'd pay because we don't have to worry about salary cap implications because almost all of our players will be on rookie deals for the next 3-4 years. Do you think Fred is worth what Malcolm Brogdon got?
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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#269 » by RHODEY » Mon Sep 7, 2020 7:43 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:

He's taking 10 threes a game in the playoffs, more than half his shots are threes, that 41% FG percentage is fine especially when half of those threes are off the dribble.

Yes, everything he does is transferable to another team, he's at 48.8% on catch and shoot threes in the playoffs, that is 3rd in the playoffs behind Joe Harris and Robert Covington for guys who take more than 5 catch and shoot threes per game. During the season he was 7th in the league for catch and shoot threes for guys who took 3 or more per game, the best was Seth Curry at 48%, while Fred shot 44% on the season. Right now the Raptors are asking him to take a lot of his threes off the dribble, he can do it, but against the Celtics defense it's more difficult and yet that still hasn't stopped him from having an impact. His offense against the Celtics hasn't been great, but the playmaking and defense has still made him an impact player. I don't see how his strengths aren't transferable, 3 point shooting, defense and playmaking are all things we need, how nice would it be to get it all in 1 player?

So, we have a player that is a statistically great catch and shoot three point shooter, who can also create off the dribble and defend. Just to put it in perspective, a lot of people on here want Joe Harris right? Joe Harris shot 44.6% on catch and shoot threes to Fred's 44% on almost the same volume (4.5 vs 3.9). So, if so many people want Joe and all these other shooters, why don't they want shooter that can defend and run offense?

He is worth every penny to bring stability to the PG position, on ball playmaking, off ball shooting and defense to a position. He doesn't even stop you from drafting a PG because he can play as a small SG when he doesn't have the ball.


So you think he's worth a near max contract? To me he's like a rich man's Charllie Ward. A very good stabilizing PG who is small but defends well and is a good 3pt shooter , but that's not something I would hand out allstar level money to.



Charlie Ward playoff stats as a starter

6.7ppg 4.3apg 3.1rpg

Come on man, he's not a rich man's Charlie Ward, you can say he's a poor man's Kyle Lowry, because almost all of his stats from the last two seasons look like Lowry's at the same age. But it's just disrespect to compare Fred to Ward in any way.


Yes, I'd be willing to give him whatever it takes to get him out of Toronto because it would finally mean we have a PG for the next several years. It would mean we don't have to hold out hope that whatever PG we draft this year develops into a player. I'd pay because we don't have to worry about salary cap implications because almost all of our players will be on rookie deals for the next 3-4 years. Do you think Fred is worth what Malcolm Brogdon got?


Stylistically they are similar... stabilizing , undersized PG's who played solid defense and could shoot the three. Fleet is obviously way better but not to the point where I want him having the highest salary on my team. He doesn't warrant it for the rebuilding Knicks. He's a complementary player - A damn good one - but not a foundational piece IMO.
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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#270 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Mon Sep 7, 2020 8:28 pm

RHODEY wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
So you think he's worth a near max contract? To me he's like a rich man's Charllie Ward. A very good stabilizing PG who is small but defends well and is a good 3pt shooter , but that's not something I would hand out allstar level money to.



Charlie Ward playoff stats as a starter

6.7ppg 4.3apg 3.1rpg

Come on man, he's not a rich man's Charlie Ward, you can say he's a poor man's Kyle Lowry, because almost all of his stats from the last two seasons look like Lowry's at the same age. But it's just disrespect to compare Fred to Ward in any way.


Yes, I'd be willing to give him whatever it takes to get him out of Toronto because it would finally mean we have a PG for the next several years. It would mean we don't have to hold out hope that whatever PG we draft this year develops into a player. I'd pay because we don't have to worry about salary cap implications because almost all of our players will be on rookie deals for the next 3-4 years. Do you think Fred is worth what Malcolm Brogdon got?


Stylistically they are similar... stabilizing , undersized PG's who played solid defense and could shoot the three. Fleet is obviously way better but not to the point where I want him having the highest salary on my team. He doesn't warrant it for the rebuilding Knicks. He's a complementary player - A damn good one - but not a foundational piece IMO.


Fred is one of the best volume 3 point shooters in the league, saying he and Charlie can both shoot the three is like saying me and Lewis Hamilton both can drive, you're not wrong but there's a large gap between us :lol:

This is where we disagree, he's a foundational piece right now on a good team, it doesn't make sense to say he can't be one for us when he's already one for a much better team. He's the 3rd best player on that team, and you can make a case for 2nd because of how important his playmaking and defense are. You still haven't answered my question, do you think Fred is worth what Malcolm got? Is Malcolm a foundational piece, or a complimentary piece?
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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#271 » by robillionaire » Mon Sep 7, 2020 9:13 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:

Charlie Ward playoff stats as a starter

6.7ppg 4.3apg 3.1rpg

Come on man, he's not a rich man's Charlie Ward, you can say he's a poor man's Kyle Lowry, because almost all of his stats from the last two seasons look like Lowry's at the same age. But it's just disrespect to compare Fred to Ward in any way.


Yes, I'd be willing to give him whatever it takes to get him out of Toronto because it would finally mean we have a PG for the next several years. It would mean we don't have to hold out hope that whatever PG we draft this year develops into a player. I'd pay because we don't have to worry about salary cap implications because almost all of our players will be on rookie deals for the next 3-4 years. Do you think Fred is worth what Malcolm Brogdon got?


Stylistically they are similar... stabilizing , undersized PG's who played solid defense and could shoot the three. Fleet is obviously way better but not to the point where I want him having the highest salary on my team. He doesn't warrant it for the rebuilding Knicks. He's a complementary player - A damn good one - but not a foundational piece IMO.


Fred is one of the best volume 3 point shooters in the league, saying he and Charlie can both shoot the three is like saying me and Lewis Hamilton both can drive, you're not wrong but there's a large gap between us :lol:

This is where we disagree, he's a foundational piece right now on a good team, it doesn't make sense to say he can't be one for us when he's already one for a much better team. He's the 3rd best player on that team, and you can make a case for 2nd because of how important his playmaking and defense are. You still haven't answered my question, do you think Fred is worth what Malcolm got? Is Malcolm a foundational piece, or a complimentary piece?


I would say they are complementary pieces best suited to be on good team with a good system and not surrounded by garbage like they’d be on this team. They’re worth being paid by a competitive team that needs to be put over the top. We still wouldn’t even make the playoffs so what’s the point? I’d rather use the cap space to obtain more draft assets and then tank again.
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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#272 » by RHODEY » Mon Sep 7, 2020 9:23 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:

Charlie Ward playoff stats as a starter

6.7ppg 4.3apg 3.1rpg

Come on man, he's not a rich man's Charlie Ward, you can say he's a poor man's Kyle Lowry, because almost all of his stats from the last two seasons look like Lowry's at the same age. But it's just disrespect to compare Fred to Ward in any way.


Yes, I'd be willing to give him whatever it takes to get him out of Toronto because it would finally mean we have a PG for the next several years. It would mean we don't have to hold out hope that whatever PG we draft this year develops into a player. I'd pay because we don't have to worry about salary cap implications because almost all of our players will be on rookie deals for the next 3-4 years. Do you think Fred is worth what Malcolm Brogdon got?


Stylistically they are similar... stabilizing , undersized PG's who played solid defense and could shoot the three. Fleet is obviously way better but not to the point where I want him having the highest salary on my team. He doesn't warrant it for the rebuilding Knicks. He's a complementary player - A damn good one - but not a foundational piece IMO.


Fred is one of the best volume 3 point shooters in the league, saying he and Charlie can both shoot the three is like saying me and Lewis Hamilton both can drive, you're not wrong but there's a large gap between us :lol:

This is where we disagree, he's a foundational piece right now on a good team, it doesn't make sense to say he can't be one for us when he's already one for a much better team. He's the 3rd best player on that team, and you can make a case for 2nd because of how important his playmaking and defense are. You still haven't answered my question, do you think Fred is worth what Malcolm got? Is Malcolm a foundational piece, or a complimentary piece?


For the rebuilding knicks...hell no.
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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#273 » by Cookies4Life » Mon Sep 7, 2020 10:27 pm

Why pursue Van Fleet? He doesn't make any sense for this team considering the current roster construction.

Pay a 26 year old PG 20 plus million a year on this team? We're not even close to competing, we need to be taking on bad contracts and having assets (young players, draft picks) attached to them.

I think van Fleet is a good player but I also believe he's somewhat a product of his environment. Him getting paid that kind of money would thrust him into a #1/2 option on offense. He doesn't seem like that kind of player to me.

Now if OKC wants to go into full rebuild mode and want to dump Paul with some assets attached, I'd give that serious consideration. We should use our money to stockpile assets and not overpay for players who won't move the needle that much in the wins column.
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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#274 » by Montmorencie » Mon Sep 7, 2020 11:06 pm

To think that of all the teams in the NBA exactly the New York Knicks with late draft picks and no talent, we'll build any foundation... you guys really are delusional. For the past 5 years Phily, Suns, Kings, Wolves, Hawks, Bulls and Detroit processes have been utter failure. And they got a lot more talent than us. We don't even have talent compare to them. All these teams achieved nothing and that won't change in the future. And they've been drafting, trying, building, trusting better and for longer than us. The rest of the bottom teams.. Dallas - they got generational talent in Luka? - lucky. Happens from time to time in NBA. Pelicans? Same. Before Zion they were also scrubs and it's not that they weren't scrubs even with Zion. They were bad with another generational talent in AD. Celtics? They got from the lottery with Tatum but also underachieved for 4 years in a weak conference. They also had many trades and superstars along the way. Denver is probably the only good example of building something out of draft picks. And they are also not going anywhere because the big teams will draft and beat them every year.

Get back to Earth, with drafts we are not going anywhere. We've been drafting for more than 5 years, we've got zero good picks. Teams that've been drafting all-stars and generational talents also are not going anywhere. Miracles like Klay, Steph, Draymond(thanks to Knicks who deciced to pass on Steph btw) and Jokic, Murray and MPJ will never happen here. Go back to the damn reality if we have a chance to get decent guys like FVF, Gordon, Lavert, Oladipo, we should do it.
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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#275 » by Richard4444 » Mon Sep 7, 2020 11:25 pm

Cookies4Life wrote:Why pursue Van Fleet? He doesn't make any sense for this team considering the current roster construction.

Pay a 26 year old PG 20 plus million a year on this team? We're not even close to competing, we need to be taking on bad contracts and having assets (young players, draft picks) attached to them.

I think van Fleet is a good player but I also believe he's somewhat a product of his environment. Him getting paid that kind of money would thrust him into a #1/2 option on offense. He doesn't seem like that kind of player to me.

Now if OKC wants to go into full rebuild mode and want to dump Paul with some assets attached, I'd give that serious consideration. We should use our money to stockpile assets and not overpay for players who won't move the needle that much in the wins column.


I hope Knicks can rent cap space for assets. But I am not sure the Front Office is willing to do that. It's not a great marketable move. It is a small market move. Besides, you need a partner. It's not a unilateral move. The other teams might be unwilling to give assets to move contracts. Its make sense financially. But the majority of the long expiring contracts are from important players to contenders or from rebuilding and under luxury tax teams that dont need to rush to get rid of contracts.

I dont believe OKC will move CP3 if costs them. They want assets to get rid of him.

Fred makes sense to the Knicks. He is a great team player who can add playmaking, defense, and spacing to facilitate the development of our rookies. Its good if he doesn't give us to many wins to get a better draft odds. Besides, we will use all of our cap space. Its better to invest in one 20M player than 2 10M players vets that will just take away time from our rookies.
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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#276 » by Esq-4 » Tue Sep 8, 2020 1:19 am

Montmorencie wrote:To think that of all the teams in the NBA exactly the New York Knicks with late draft picks and no talent, we'll build any foundation... you guys really are delusional. For the past 5 years Phily, Suns, Kings, Wolves, Hawks, Bulls and Detroit processes have been utter failure. And they got a lot more talent than us. We don't even have talent compare to them. All these teams achieved nothing and that won't change in the future. And they've been drafting, trying, building, trusting better and for longer than us. The rest of the bottom teams.. Dallas - they got generational talent in Luka? - lucky. Happens from time to time in NBA. Pelicans? Same. Before Zion they were also scrubs and it's not that they weren't scrubs even with Zion. They were bad with another generational talent in AD. Celtics? They got from the lottery with Tatum but also underachieved for 4 years in a weak conference. They also had many trades and superstars along the way. Denver is probably the only good example of building something out of draft picks. And they are also not going anywhere because the big teams will draft and beat them every year.

Get back to Earth, with drafts we are not going anywhere. We've been drafting for more than 5 years, we've got zero good picks. Teams that've been drafting all-stars and generational talents also are not going anywhere. Miracles like Klay, Steph, Draymond(thanks to Knicks who deciced to pass on Steph btw) and Jokic, Murray and MPJ will never happen here. Go back to the damn reality if we have a chance to get decent guys like FVF, Gordon, Lavert, Oladipo, we should do it.


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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#277 » by RHODEY » Tue Sep 8, 2020 2:04 am

Montmorencie wrote:To think that of all the teams in the NBA exactly the New York Knicks with late draft picks and no talent, we'll build any foundation... you guys really are delusional. For the past 5 years Phily, Suns, Kings, Wolves, Hawks, Bulls and Detroit processes have been utter failure. And they got a lot more talent than us. We don't even have talent compare to them. All these teams achieved nothing and that won't change in the future. And they've been drafting, trying, building, trusting better and for longer than us. The rest of the bottom teams.. Dallas - they got generational talent in Luka? - lucky. Happens from time to time in NBA. Pelicans? Same. Before Zion they were also scrubs and it's not that they weren't scrubs even with Zion. They were bad with another generational talent in AD. Celtics? They got from the lottery with Tatum but also underachieved for 4 years in a weak conference. They also had many trades and superstars along the way. Denver is probably the only good example of building something out of draft picks. And they are also not going anywhere because the big teams will draft and beat them every year.

Get back to Earth, with drafts we are not going anywhere. We've been drafting for more than 5 years, we've got zero good picks. Teams that've been drafting all-stars and generational talents also are not going anywhere. Miracles like Klay, Steph, Draymond(thanks to Knicks who deciced to pass on Steph btw) and Jokic, Murray and MPJ will never happen here. Go back to the damn reality if we have a chance to get decent guys like FVF, Gordon, Lavert, Oladipo, we should do it.


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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#278 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Tue Sep 8, 2020 4:19 am

RHODEY wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
Stylistically they are similar... stabilizing , undersized PG's who played solid defense and could shoot the three. Fleet is obviously way better but not to the point where I want him having the highest salary on my team. He doesn't warrant it for the rebuilding Knicks. He's a complementary player - A damn good one - but not a foundational piece IMO.


Fred is one of the best volume 3 point shooters in the league, saying he and Charlie can both shoot the three is like saying me and Lewis Hamilton both can drive, you're not wrong but there's a large gap between us :lol:

This is where we disagree, he's a foundational piece right now on a good team, it doesn't make sense to say he can't be one for us when he's already one for a much better team. He's the 3rd best player on that team, and you can make a case for 2nd because of how important his playmaking and defense are. You still haven't answered my question, do you think Fred is worth what Malcolm got? Is Malcolm a foundational piece, or a complimentary piece?


For the rebuilding knicks...hell no.



Good enough for a competitive team, in which he's a top 3 guy, but somehow not a good signing for a team devoid of talent?



Our best young guys are all going to be on rookie deals, it's not our money and doesn't impact the long term outlook of the cap. Too many people here think we're going to sign 2 max superstars 3 years from now and we must preserve our space.
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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#279 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Tue Sep 8, 2020 4:22 am

Cookies4Life wrote:Why pursue Van Fleet? He doesn't make any sense for this team considering the current roster construction.

Pay a 26 year old PG 20 plus million a year on this team? We're not even close to competing, we need to be taking on bad contracts and having assets (young players, draft picks) attached to them.

I think van Fleet is a good player but I also believe he's somewhat a product of his environment. Him getting paid that kind of money would thrust him into a #1/2 option on offense. He doesn't seem like that kind of player to me.

Now if OKC wants to go into full rebuild mode and want to dump Paul with some assets attached, I'd give that serious consideration. We should use our money to stockpile assets and not overpay for players who won't move the needle that much in the wins column.



Is 26 years old supposed to be old? The Raptors acquired Lowry when he was 26.



Trade for Cp3 and we still have the problem of not having a long term solution at PG. OKC isn't giving anything of value to move him, Presti isn't going to give away good picks if they're going into a rebuild.
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Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#280 » by RHODEY » Tue Sep 8, 2020 5:22 am

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Fred is one of the best volume 3 point shooters in the league, saying he and Charlie can both shoot the three is like saying me and Lewis Hamilton both can drive, you're not wrong but there's a large gap between us :lol:

This is where we disagree, he's a foundational piece right now on a good team, it doesn't make sense to say he can't be one for us when he's already one for a much better team. He's the 3rd best player on that team, and you can make a case for 2nd because of how important his playmaking and defense are. You still haven't answered my question, do you think Fred is worth what Malcolm got? Is Malcolm a foundational piece, or a complimentary piece?


For the rebuilding knicks...hell no.



Good enough for a competitive team, in which he's a top 3 guy, but somehow not a good signing for a team devoid of talent?



Our best young guys are all going to be on rookie deals, it's not our money and doesn't impact the long term outlook of the cap. Too many people here think we're going to sign 2 max superstars 3 years from now and we must preserve our space.

Just because we lack talent doesn't mean we should overpay for complementary talent.

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