ImageImageImageImageImage

Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans

Moderators: GONYK, K-DOT, Deeeez Knicks, Capn'O, Thugger HBC, j4remi, Jeff Van Gully, mrpoetryNmotion, mpharris36, NoLayupRule, King of Canada

Jeff Van Gully
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 21,077
And1: 14,859
Joined: Jul 31, 2010
     

Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#281 » by Jeff Van Gully » Tue Sep 8, 2020 11:43 am

blanko wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:

He's taking 10 threes a game in the playoffs, more than half his shots are threes, that 41% FG percentage is fine especially when half of those threes are off the dribble.

Yes, everything he does is transferable to another team, he's at 48.8% on catch and shoot threes in the playoffs, that is 3rd in the playoffs behind Joe Harris and Robert Covington for guys who take more than 5 catch and shoot threes per game. During the season he was 7th in the league for catch and shoot threes for guys who took 3 or more per game, the best was Seth Curry at 48%, while Fred shot 44% on the season. Right now the Raptors are asking him to take a lot of his threes off the dribble, he can do it, but against the Celtics defense it's more difficult and yet that still hasn't stopped him from having an impact. His offense against the Celtics hasn't been great, but the playmaking and defense has still made him an impact player. I don't see how his strengths aren't transferable, 3 point shooting, defense and playmaking are all things we need, how nice would it be to get it all in 1 player?

So, we have a player that is a statistically great catch and shoot three point shooter, who can also create off the dribble and defend. Just to put it in perspective, a lot of people on here want Joe Harris right? Joe Harris shot 44.6% on catch and shoot threes to Fred's 44% on almost the same volume (4.5 vs 3.9). So, if so many people want Joe and all these other shooters, why don't they want shooter that can defend and run offense?

He is worth every penny to bring stability to the PG position, on ball playmaking, off ball shooting and defense to a position. He doesn't even stop you from drafting a PG because he can play as a small SG when he doesn't have the ball.


So you think he's worth a near max contract? To me he's like a rich man's Charllie Ward. A very good stabilizing PG who is small but defends well and is a good 3pt shooter , but that's not something I would hand out allstar level money to.
Charlie ward never avg
17.6 6.6 while shooting 39% from 3


Sent from my SM-N960N using Tapatalk


Charlie Ward, god love him, had none of FVV’s scoring talent. Didn’t create either. He was the NBA equivalent of a game manager QB. Don’t do that, War Machine. lol.
RIP magnumt

welcome home, thibs.
Jeff Van Gully
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 21,077
And1: 14,859
Joined: Jul 31, 2010
     

Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#282 » by Jeff Van Gully » Tue Sep 8, 2020 11:45 am

-YogiBiz- wrote:This board is so weird. They would rather give up the farm for a guy who shot 36% & 25% from 3 against G-League wash outs, but don’t want to just pay a guy that brings everything to the table that we need.


Literally everything from the guard position.

On a non-max, non-highest years of service tier deal.

This is not the path to the treadmill. This is the stability you need to begin the ascent.

Not sure what else Fred has to do to prove his legitimacy.
RIP magnumt

welcome home, thibs.
User avatar
thebuzzardman
RealGM
Posts: 39,445
And1: 31,323
Joined: Jun 24, 2006
Location: IGNOMANIA

Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#283 » by thebuzzardman » Tue Sep 8, 2020 12:57 pm

Jeff Van Gully wrote:
-YogiBiz- wrote:This board is so weird. They would rather give up the farm for a guy who shot 36% & 25% from 3 against G-League wash outs, but don’t want to just pay a guy that brings everything to the table that we need.


Literally everything from the guard position.

On a non-max, non-highest years of service tier deal.

This is not the path to the treadmill. This is the stability you need to begin the ascent.

Not sure what else Fred has to do to prove his legitimacy.


Conley @ 1 year 30 million
Paul @ 2 years 40 million
FVV @ 4 years, 25 million

Pretending that all 3 are the Knicks choice, all have their plus/minus

Conley is the vet help/lowest commitment/stop gap
Paul is potentially the best player if he stays injury free, massive contract, though only 2 years
FVV is a good young player but will be the longest commitment, team needs to be sure he's a piece, even if he's a 3rd option eventually. Oh, and if he even wants to join the team and Toronto doesn't match etc.

I figure Toronto matches, as Lowry is 34 and will turn 35 next year
Jeff Van Gully
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 21,077
And1: 14,859
Joined: Jul 31, 2010
     

Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#284 » by Jeff Van Gully » Tue Sep 8, 2020 1:49 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:
Jeff Van Gully wrote:
-YogiBiz- wrote:This board is so weird. They would rather give up the farm for a guy who shot 36% & 25% from 3 against G-League wash outs, but don’t want to just pay a guy that brings everything to the table that we need.


Literally everything from the guard position.

On a non-max, non-highest years of service tier deal.

This is not the path to the treadmill. This is the stability you need to begin the ascent.

Not sure what else Fred has to do to prove his legitimacy.


Conley @ 1 year 30 million
Paul @ 2 years 40 million
FVV @ 4 years, 25 million

Pretending that all 3 are the Knicks choice, all have their plus/minus

Conley is the vet help/lowest commitment/stop gap
Paul is potentially the best player if he stays injury free, massive contract, though only 2 years
FVV is a good young player but will be the longest commitment, team needs to be sure he's a piece, even if he's a 3rd option eventually. Oh, and if he even wants to join the team and Toronto doesn't match etc.

I figure Toronto matches, as Lowry is 34 and will turn 35 next year


yeah, i see pros of each scenario. i also understand those who want to chill on the spending at the moment.

i'd be happy with any of those guys helping us to set a proper foundation and an environment in which to develop players. i suspect taj will stick around for the same reason.

fred at $4/100 gets us the best of both worlds in that he'll still be in his prime even at the end of the deal. he's also the only one of those players who can tell you what went into winning a title. i think fred's price tag next to conley and paul's current price tags should put into perspective what a vet max looks and an appropriate young star deal look like.

i think toronto could match, but it's worth calling their bluff on this one. if not, conley and paul trades might not be on the table either. in which case we could eat salary for assets. i love the randle for gary harris and a FRP that the knicks wall game keeps offering. i take that every time.
RIP magnumt

welcome home, thibs.
User avatar
Deeeez Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 32,479
And1: 18,526
Joined: Nov 12, 2004
Location: Bar stool

Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#285 » by Deeeez Knicks » Tue Sep 8, 2020 1:52 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:
Jeff Van Gully wrote:
-YogiBiz- wrote:This board is so weird. They would rather give up the farm for a guy who shot 36% & 25% from 3 against G-League wash outs, but don’t want to just pay a guy that brings everything to the table that we need.


Literally everything from the guard position.

On a non-max, non-highest years of service tier deal.

This is not the path to the treadmill. This is the stability you need to begin the ascent.

Not sure what else Fred has to do to prove his legitimacy.


Conley @ 1 year 30 million
Paul @ 2 years 40 million
FVV @ 4 years, 25 million

Pretending that all 3 are the Knicks choice, all have their plus/minus

Conley is the vet help/lowest commitment/stop gap
Paul is potentially the best player if he stays injury free, massive contract, though only 2 years
FVV is a good young player but will be the longest commitment, team needs to be sure he's a piece, even if he's a 3rd option eventually. Oh, and if he even wants to join the team and Toronto doesn't match etc.

I figure Toronto matches, as Lowry is 34 and will turn 35 next year


Conley if we can get rid of Randle and/or get pick(s)

Otherwise I am ok with none of those guys and being bad again next year.
Mavs
C: Jokic | Grant Williams
F: Giannis | Kurucs
F: Mikal Bridges | Okpala
G: Jrue Holiday | Danuel House
G: Derrick White |
Stash
Didi
Milos
Nazrmohamed
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,824
And1: 2,320
Joined: May 16, 2013
     

Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#286 » by Nazrmohamed » Tue Sep 8, 2020 2:00 pm

Jeff Van Gully wrote:
-YogiBiz- wrote:This board is so weird. They would rather give up the farm for a guy who shot 36% & 25% from 3 against G-League wash outs, but don’t want to just pay a guy that brings everything to the table that we need.


Literally everything from the guard position.

On a non-max, non-highest years of service tier deal.

This is not the path to the treadmill. This is the stability you need to begin the ascent.

Not sure what else Fred has to do to prove his legitimacy.


What does that mean exactly...non-max, non highest years
User avatar
moocow007
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 92,179
And1: 18,911
Joined: Jan 07, 2002
Location: In front of the computer, where else?
       

Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#287 » by moocow007 » Tue Sep 8, 2020 2:27 pm

-YogiBiz- wrote:This board is so weird. They would rather give up the farm for a guy who shot 36% & 25% from 3 against G-League wash outs, but don’t want to just pay a guy that brings everything to the table that we need.


We need a no.1 option. That is not FVV. FVV is an inefficient no.3 option right now. We need a guy that can create easy shots for himself and his teammates. FVV struggles to create his own shot and he's not a top tier shot creator for his teammates. Yes it's nice to have a guy like FVV but let's take it easy with "everything to the table that we need" statement. Assuming you are referring to FVV of course.
Jeff Van Gully
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 21,077
And1: 14,859
Joined: Jul 31, 2010
     

Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#288 » by Jeff Van Gully » Tue Sep 8, 2020 2:32 pm

Nazrmohamed wrote:
Jeff Van Gully wrote:
-YogiBiz- wrote:This board is so weird. They would rather give up the farm for a guy who shot 36% & 25% from 3 against G-League wash outs, but don’t want to just pay a guy that brings everything to the table that we need.


Literally everything from the guard position.

On a non-max, non-highest years of service tier deal.

This is not the path to the treadmill. This is the stability you need to begin the ascent.

Not sure what else Fred has to do to prove his legitimacy.


What does that mean exactly...non-max, non highest years


sorry. i mean, fred vanvleet is not being discussed as a max deal for his own years of service tier. i believe that number is higher than people think when they consider signings.

year 1-6: max starting salary is 25% of cap
year 7-9: max starting salary is 30% of cap
year 10%: max starting salary is 35% of cap

getting fred at year 5 for starting salary of $25m would be around 22% of a $115m cap. getting him at $20m. at $22m it's 19%. $20m it's 17%. it also locks him up through year 9, so you can skip the 30% hit period altogether. current starting max for fred would be around $29m starting salary.

paul and conley's deals reflect much higher cap percentages. of course, these are commensurate with experience/years of service.
RIP magnumt

welcome home, thibs.
User avatar
moocow007
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 92,179
And1: 18,911
Joined: Jan 07, 2002
Location: In front of the computer, where else?
       

Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#289 » by moocow007 » Tue Sep 8, 2020 2:34 pm

Cookies4Life wrote:Why pursue Van Fleet? He doesn't make any sense for this team considering the current roster construction.

Pay a 26 year old PG 20 plus million a year on this team? We're not even close to competing, we need to be taking on bad contracts and having assets (young players, draft picks) attached to them.

I think van Fleet is a good player but I also believe he's somewhat a product of his environment. Him getting paid that kind of money would thrust him into a #1/2 option on offense. He doesn't seem like that kind of player to me.

Now if OKC wants to go into full rebuild mode and want to dump Paul with some assets attached, I'd give that serious consideration. We should use our money to stockpile assets and not overpay for players who won't move the needle that much in the wins column.


Like I said, this is the same kind of craze that folks on this board had about 7-8 years ago for Patty Mills in San Antonio.
Jeff Van Gully
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 21,077
And1: 14,859
Joined: Jul 31, 2010
     

Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#290 » by Jeff Van Gully » Tue Sep 8, 2020 2:35 pm

moocow007 wrote:
-YogiBiz- wrote:This board is so weird. They would rather give up the farm for a guy who shot 36% & 25% from 3 against G-League wash outs, but don’t want to just pay a guy that brings everything to the table that we need.


We need a no.1 option. That is not FVV. FVV is an inefficient no.3 option right now. We need a guy that can create easy shots for himself and his teammates. FVV struggles to create his own shot and he's not a top tier shot creator for his teammates. Yes it's nice to have a guy like FVV but let's take it easy with "everything to the table that we need" statement. Assuming you are referring to FVV of course.


i don't see the bold. fred seems to get busy when asked to isolate. not sure how you're defining top tier shot creator. assist totals? if so, that's just not his role next to lowry. it can be, but it doesn't have to be. fred is just a damn good guard. proper combo with toughness, leadership, defense... i'm trying to find the tragic flaw. he's not the flashiest player, but he's highly effective and productive.
RIP magnumt

welcome home, thibs.
User avatar
moocow007
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 92,179
And1: 18,911
Joined: Jan 07, 2002
Location: In front of the computer, where else?
       

Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#291 » by moocow007 » Tue Sep 8, 2020 2:37 pm

Jeff Van Gully wrote:
moocow007 wrote:
-YogiBiz- wrote:This board is so weird. They would rather give up the farm for a guy who shot 36% & 25% from 3 against G-League wash outs, but don’t want to just pay a guy that brings everything to the table that we need.


We need a no.1 option. That is not FVV. FVV is an inefficient no.3 option right now. We need a guy that can create easy shots for himself and his teammates. FVV struggles to create his own shot and he's not a top tier shot creator for his teammates. Yes it's nice to have a guy like FVV but let's take it easy with "everything to the table that we need" statement. Assuming you are referring to FVV of course.


i don't see the bold. fred seems to get busy when asked to isolate. not sure how you're defining top tier shot creator. assist totals? if so, that's just not his role next to lowry. it can be, but it doesn't have to be. fred is just a damn good guard. proper combo with toughness, leadership, defense... i'm trying to find the tragic flaw. he's not the flashiest player, but he's highly effective and productive.


His FG% and eFG%, the later of which is an excellent indicator of how well a guy creates his own shots are both below league average (not just no.1 option average). He shoots 3's well, is very competitive and plays a solid overall game is what he's great at. And this is on a team where opposing defenses have to keep eyes out for 2 other guys (Siakam and Lowry). What do you think will happen in NY when he becomes the no.1 focus of opposing defenses? I'm trying to be realistic here.
Nazrmohamed
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,824
And1: 2,320
Joined: May 16, 2013
     

Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#292 » by Nazrmohamed » Tue Sep 8, 2020 2:40 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:
Jeff Van Gully wrote:
-YogiBiz- wrote:This board is so weird. They would rather give up the farm for a guy who shot 36% & 25% from 3 against G-League wash outs, but don’t want to just pay a guy that brings everything to the table that we need.


Literally everything from the guard position.

On a non-max, non-highest years of service tier deal.

This is not the path to the treadmill. This is the stability you need to begin the ascent.

Not sure what else Fred has to do to prove his legitimacy.


Conley @ 1 year 30 million
Paul @ 2 years 40 million
FVV @ 4 years, 25 million

Pretending that all 3 are the Knicks choice, all have their plus/minus

Conley is the vet help/lowest commitment/stop gap
Paul is potentially the best player if he stays injury free, massive contract, though only 2 years
FVV is a good young player but will be the longest commitment, team needs to be sure he's a piece, even if he's a 3rd option eventually. Oh, and if he even wants to join the team and Toronto doesn't match etc.

I figure Toronto matches, as Lowry is 34 and will turn 35 next year


You know we could trade for Conley and still sign FVV right? Probably not my first idea but if you REALLY FEEL like you'd be missing out on a can't miss FA in FVV don't let the Conley deal deter you.

At the end of the day the Conley deal is really more of a shed Randle deal, right? In the process sure its nice to get a PG. It helps us not be desperate in other dealings, like perhaps overpaying FVV and it also makes you not go into the draft with that "I gotta get a pg" mentality that got us Frank Ntilikina when there were other options. We should take the BPA regardless of position. So getting Mike Connelly allows you to think that way.

However.... however, if you still feel FVV is that FA you shouldn't miss out on take him. Connelly only has a one yr deal and we got the money. Worst case, Connelly is FVV backup and we look at deals including both Frank and DSJ. Or you do what Toronto does and maybe play a 2 pg system. Hey, why not? You could always move RJ to the 3.

So again, its not my favorite scenario but its not the end of the world either. I think the additional pick is worth it. Doing it while shedding Randle is worth it.
User avatar
Clyde_Style
RealGM
Posts: 39,274
And1: 27,803
Joined: Jul 12, 2009
Location: Free Candy Van
 

Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#293 » by Clyde_Style » Tue Sep 8, 2020 2:43 pm

moocow007 wrote:
-YogiBiz- wrote:This board is so weird. They would rather give up the farm for a guy who shot 36% & 25% from 3 against G-League wash outs, but don’t want to just pay a guy that brings everything to the table that we need.


We need a no.1 option. That is not FVV. FVV is an inefficient no.3 option right now. We need a guy that can create easy shots for himself and his teammates. FVV struggles to create his own shot and he's not a top tier shot creator for his teammates. Yes it's nice to have a guy like FVV but let's take it easy with "everything to the table that we need" statement. Assuming you are referring to FVV of course.


This is when you DON'T open the bank for a player like FVV. This is the time to find a player like FVV before he became the current FVV and mold them into our own FVV. The goal is to have an organization to groom players like Toronto did or Miami does, not to be where those players go for their big pay day.

I'm open to a Conley or Chris Paul deal if we draft a decent PG prospect. Paying a savvy vet two years to mentor three young guys in a draft pick, RJ and Frank is more appealing than opening the vault for four years for a player like FVV.

FVV is a good player, but he is not a 20M+ per year player, especially with whatever the new contracts are going to bring.

The other thing I don't think is really being taken into account for is FVV made a name for himself in Toronto's system. It doesn't automatically mean he'll thrive at the same level anywhere he goes. He also benefitted from having Kahwi to grab a ring and get that shine to his resume.

We've all seen players who leave one environment who don't live up to the hype on their new clubs where they may not have the same chemistry or roster construction that benefits them. I think it is very likely FVV already found his level in TO and he will settle in for a good, solid career without sustaining star level status. At the end of the day, he's still a role player, not a franchise piece you dish out the money for now at this stage of the Knicks' process.
User avatar
moocow007
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 92,179
And1: 18,911
Joined: Jan 07, 2002
Location: In front of the computer, where else?
       

Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#294 » by moocow007 » Tue Sep 8, 2020 2:52 pm

Clyde_Style wrote:
moocow007 wrote:
-YogiBiz- wrote:This board is so weird. They would rather give up the farm for a guy who shot 36% & 25% from 3 against G-League wash outs, but don’t want to just pay a guy that brings everything to the table that we need.


We need a no.1 option. That is not FVV. FVV is an inefficient no.3 option right now. We need a guy that can create easy shots for himself and his teammates. FVV struggles to create his own shot and he's not a top tier shot creator for his teammates. Yes it's nice to have a guy like FVV but let's take it easy with "everything to the table that we need" statement. Assuming you are referring to FVV of course.


This is when you DON'T open the bank for a player like FVV. This is the time to find a player like FVV before he became the current FVV and mold them into our own FVV. The goal is to have an organization to groom players like Toronto did or Miami does, not to be where those players go for their big pay day.

I'm open to a Conley or Chris Paul deal if we draft a decent PG prospect. Paying a savvy vet two years to mentor three young guys in a draft pick, RJ and Frank is more appealing than opening the vault for four years for a player like FVV.

FVV is a good player, but he is not a 20M+ per year player, especially with whatever the new contracts are going to bring.

The other thing I don't think is really being taken into account for is FVV made a name for himself in Toronto's system. It doesn't automatically mean he'll thrive at the same level anywhere he goes. He also benefitted from having Kahwi to grab a ring and get that shine to his resume.

We've all seen players who leave one environment who don't live up to the hype on their new clubs where they may not have the same chemistry or roster construction that benefits them. I think it is very likely FVV already found his level in TO and he will settle in for a good, solid career without sustaining star level status. At the end of the day, he's still a role player, not a franchise piece you dish out the money for now at this stage of the Knicks' process.


Yep exactly. I'm not saying FVV is not a real good player, he is. But he's not the guy that we should be throwing the bank at.
User avatar
Clyde_Style
RealGM
Posts: 39,274
And1: 27,803
Joined: Jul 12, 2009
Location: Free Candy Van
 

Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#295 » by Clyde_Style » Tue Sep 8, 2020 3:05 pm

moocow007 wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:
moocow007 wrote:
We need a no.1 option. That is not FVV. FVV is an inefficient no.3 option right now. We need a guy that can create easy shots for himself and his teammates. FVV struggles to create his own shot and he's not a top tier shot creator for his teammates. Yes it's nice to have a guy like FVV but let's take it easy with "everything to the table that we need" statement. Assuming you are referring to FVV of course.


This is when you DON'T open the bank for a player like FVV. This is the time to find a player like FVV before he became the current FVV and mold them into our own FVV. The goal is to have an organization to groom players like Toronto did or Miami does, not to be where those players go for their big pay day.

I'm open to a Conley or Chris Paul deal if we draft a decent PG prospect. Paying a savvy vet two years to mentor three young guys in a draft pick, RJ and Frank is more appealing than opening the vault for four years for a player like FVV.

FVV is a good player, but he is not a 20M+ per year player, especially with whatever the new contracts are going to bring.

The other thing I don't think is really being taken into account for is FVV made a name for himself in Toronto's system. It doesn't automatically mean he'll thrive at the same level anywhere he goes. He also benefitted from having Kahwi to grab a ring and get that shine to his resume.

We've all seen players who leave one environment who don't live up to the hype on their new clubs where they may not have the same chemistry or roster construction that benefits them. I think it is very likely FVV already found his level in TO and he will settle in for a good, solid career without sustaining star level status. At the end of the day, he's still a role player, not a franchise piece you dish out the money for now at this stage of the Knicks' process.


Yep exactly. I'm not saying FVV is not a real good player, he is. But he's not the guy that we should be throwing the bank at.



I think all of this FVV talk is simply due to the lack of enticing FA's so it amplifies his desirability in some peoples' minds, but that is not a good justification. His value at $20M a year might make sense to a club that is already contending and making deep playoff runs. It is a premature expenditure for a club that has been out of the playoffs for many years. Locking him up for 4 years is a far more inflexible position to put yourself in than paying an older vet $30M for two years.

If Rose drafts well and it appears he may be a better dealmaker, then there is no reason not to expect this club being in the playoffs after two more seasons if RJ and Mitch meet most of their potential. If this club starts buying rosters too quickly it will not end well. FVV at four years feels like the Knicks boxing themselves in again. My gut says this is a two year turnaround and they need to keep some of that long-term powder dry for 2022-2023.
User avatar
thebuzzardman
RealGM
Posts: 39,445
And1: 31,323
Joined: Jun 24, 2006
Location: IGNOMANIA

Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#296 » by thebuzzardman » Tue Sep 8, 2020 3:05 pm

Nazrmohamed wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
Jeff Van Gully wrote:
Literally everything from the guard position.

On a non-max, non-highest years of service tier deal.

This is not the path to the treadmill. This is the stability you need to begin the ascent.

Not sure what else Fred has to do to prove his legitimacy.


Conley @ 1 year 30 million
Paul @ 2 years 40 million
FVV @ 4 years, 25 million

Pretending that all 3 are the Knicks choice, all have their plus/minus

Conley is the vet help/lowest commitment/stop gap
Paul is potentially the best player if he stays injury free, massive contract, though only 2 years
FVV is a good young player but will be the longest commitment, team needs to be sure he's a piece, even if he's a 3rd option eventually. Oh, and if he even wants to join the team and Toronto doesn't match etc.

I figure Toronto matches, as Lowry is 34 and will turn 35 next year


You know we could trade for Conley and still sign FVV right? Probably not my first idea but if you REALLY FEEL like you'd be missing out on a can't miss FA in FVV don't let the Conley deal deter you.

At the end of the day the Conley deal is really more of a shed Randle deal, right? In the process sure its nice to get a PG. It helps us not be desperate in other dealings, like perhaps overpaying FVV and it also makes you not go into the draft with that "I gotta get a pg" mentality that got us Frank Ntilikina when there were other options. We should take the BPA regardless of position. So getting Mike Connelly allows you to think that way.

However.... however, if you still feel FVV is that FA you shouldn't miss out on take him. Connelly only has a one yr deal and we got the money. Worst case, Connelly is FVV backup and we look at deals including both Frank and DSJ. Or you do what Toronto does and maybe play a 2 pg system. Hey, why not? You could always move RJ to the 3.

So again, its not my favorite scenario but its not the end of the world either. I think the additional pick is worth it. Doing it while shedding Randle is worth it.


It's a "shed Randle for this year" as Randle is effectively expiring anyway

What got us Frank is that Gaines convinced Phil he was a good choice for the triangle, not that we desperately sought out a PG, or that Frank was the "last PG standing" and they overreached for him. Other PGs went after him in the draft. One is on the Knicks right now.

Toronto has the right to match FVV. It's not that the Knicks shouldn't make an attempt, other than the fact that it might tie their hands while FVV decides, and then decides to go back to Toronto. I'd assume there are ways to avoid this with backchannel talk, how not to waste time in a dead end etc.
I think Toronto matches.
User avatar
RHODEY
RealGM
Posts: 10,715
And1: 5,504
Joined: May 18, 2007
Location: Straight out of a comic book

Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#297 » by RHODEY » Tue Sep 8, 2020 3:26 pm

Jeff Van Gully wrote:
-YogiBiz- wrote:This board is so weird. They would rather give up the farm for a guy who shot 36% & 25% from 3 against G-League wash outs, but don’t want to just pay a guy that brings everything to the table that we need.


Literally everything from the guard position.

On a non-max, non-highest years of service tier deal.

This is not the path to the treadmill. This is the stability you need to begin the ascent.

Not sure what else Fred has to do to prove his legitimacy.


Legtimacy as what? He's not an allstar. Lowry OTOH made it like 6 times?
Jeff Van Gully
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 21,077
And1: 14,859
Joined: Jul 31, 2010
     

Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#298 » by Jeff Van Gully » Tue Sep 8, 2020 3:58 pm

RHODEY wrote:
Jeff Van Gully wrote:
-YogiBiz- wrote:This board is so weird. They would rather give up the farm for a guy who shot 36% & 25% from 3 against G-League wash outs, but don’t want to just pay a guy that brings everything to the table that we need.


Literally everything from the guard position.

On a non-max, non-highest years of service tier deal.

This is not the path to the treadmill. This is the stability you need to begin the ascent.

Not sure what else Fred has to do to prove his legitimacy.


Legtimacy as what? He's not an allstar. Lowry OTOH made it like 6 times?


invoking lowry kind of helps make my case. fred has put up very similar numbers to lowry in this breakout opportunity while working right next to him. if lowry can get 6 all-star nods with those numbers, then fred should be in a similar classification of guard. :dontknow:
RIP magnumt

welcome home, thibs.
User avatar
RHODEY
RealGM
Posts: 10,715
And1: 5,504
Joined: May 18, 2007
Location: Straight out of a comic book

Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#299 » by RHODEY » Tue Sep 8, 2020 7:17 pm

Jeff Van Gully wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
Jeff Van Gully wrote:
Literally everything from the guard position.

On a non-max, non-highest years of service tier deal.

This is not the path to the treadmill. This is the stability you need to begin the ascent.

Not sure what else Fred has to do to prove his legitimacy.


Legtimacy as what? He's not an allstar. Lowry OTOH made it like 6 times?


invoking lowry kind of helps make my case. fred has put up very similar numbers to lowry in this breakout opportunity while working right next to him. if lowry can get 6 all-star nods with those numbers, then fred should be in a similar classification of guard. :dontknow:


Yeah Maybe ..I dont know...
User avatar
thebuzzardman
RealGM
Posts: 39,445
And1: 31,323
Joined: Jun 24, 2006
Location: IGNOMANIA

Re: Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans 

Post#300 » by thebuzzardman » Tue Sep 8, 2020 7:34 pm

Glad someone else was thinking about this enough to write about it:

https://www.thestrick.land/strick/aron-baynes-free-agent-profile-knicks-2020

Return to New York Knicks