Thoughts on aggressive pursuit of Fred Van Vleet & Joe Harris/Davis Bertans

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Glad someone else was thinking about this enough to write about it:

https://www.thestrick.land/strick/aron-baynes-free-agent-profile-knicks-2020

Baynes would be a great backup C, especially since we'd get the Aron Baynes fanclub twitter in the deal too.

[Nazrmohamed]

Conley @ 1 year 30 million
Paul @ 2 years 40 million
FVV @ 4 years, 25 million

Pretending that all 3 are the Knicks choice, all have their plus/minus

Conley is the vet help/lowest commitment/stop gap
Paul is potentially the best player if he stays injury free, massive contract, though only 2 years
FVV is a good young player but will be the longest commitment, team needs to be sure he's a piece, even if he's a 3rd option eventually. Oh, and if he even wants to join the team and Toronto doesn't match etc.

I figure Toronto matches, as Lowry is 34 and will turn 35 next year

You know we could trade for Conley and still sign FVV right? Probably not my first idea but if you REALLY FEEL like you'd be missing out on a can't miss FA in FVV don't let the Conley deal deter you.

At the end of the day the Conley deal is really more of a shed Randle deal, right? In the process sure its nice to get a PG. It helps us not be desperate in other dealings, like perhaps overpaying FVV and it also makes you not go into the draft with that "I gotta get a pg" mentality that got us Frank Ntilikina when there were other options. We should take the BPA regardless of position. So getting Mike Connelly allows you to think that way.

However.... however, if you still feel FVV is that FA you shouldn't miss out on take him. Connelly only has a one yr deal and we got the money. Worst case, Connelly is FVV backup and we look at deals including both Frank and DSJ. Or you do what Toronto does and maybe play a 2 pg system. Hey, why not? You could always move RJ to the 3.

So again, its not my favorite scenario but its not the end of the world either. I think the additional pick is worth it. Doing it while shedding Randle is worth it.

It's a "shed Randle for this year" as Randle is effectively expiring anyway

What got us Frank is that Gaines convinced Phil he was a good choice for the triangle, not that we desperately sought out a PG, or that Frank was the "last PG standing" and they overreached for him. Other PGs went after him in the draft. One is on the Knicks right now.

Toronto has the right to match FVV. It's not that the Knicks shouldn't make an attempt, other than the fact that it might tie their hands while FVV decides, and then decides to go back to Toronto. I'd assume there are ways to avoid this with backchannel talk, how not to waste time in a dead end etc.
I think Toronto matches.

I remember that summer being one where fans, media, everybody were like "the knicks need to sign a PG" and I feel like I remember it was even asked of Phil a few times and he would try to dodge the question, probably as he was just looking for the right triangle fit at any position. So on draft night Frank sortve became the " ok stfu, I got us a PG but he'll fit the triangle"

I quoted it but really I'm just saying of course Frank fit the triangle. Hed have to for Phil to sign him but the fact that he took a pg instead of guys at any other position is because of this overarching theme that we couldn't walk out of that draft without one. All I'm saying is don't go into drafts where you're in the lottery taking about which need you have to fill or you might get burnt. It just so happens that this yr a PG may be the BPA and full a need at the same time.

[thebuzzardman]

You know we could trade for Conley and still sign FVV right? Probably not my first idea but if you REALLY FEEL like you'd be missing out on a can't miss FA in FVV don't let the Conley deal deter you.

At the end of the day the Conley deal is really more of a shed Randle deal, right? In the process sure its nice to get a PG. It helps us not be desperate in other dealings, like perhaps overpaying FVV and it also makes you not go into the draft with that "I gotta get a pg" mentality that got us Frank Ntilikina when there were other options. We should take the BPA regardless of position. So getting Mike Connelly allows you to think that way.

However.... however, if you still feel FVV is that FA you shouldn't miss out on take him. Connelly only has a one yr deal and we got the money. Worst case, Connelly is FVV backup and we look at deals including both Frank and DSJ. Or you do what Toronto does and maybe play a 2 pg system. Hey, why not? You could always move RJ to the 3.

So again, its not my favorite scenario but its not the end of the world either. I think the additional pick is worth it. Doing it while shedding Randle is worth it.

It's a "shed Randle for this year" as Randle is effectively expiring anyway

What got us Frank is that Gaines convinced Phil he was a good choice for the triangle, not that we desperately sought out a PG, or that Frank was the "last PG standing" and they overreached for him. Other PGs went after him in the draft. One is on the Knicks right now.

Toronto has the right to match FVV. It's not that the Knicks shouldn't make an attempt, other than the fact that it might tie their hands while FVV decides, and then decides to go back to Toronto. I'd assume there are ways to avoid this with backchannel talk, how not to waste time in a dead end etc.
I think Toronto matches.

I remember that summer being one where fans, media, everybody were like "the knicks need to sign a PG" and I feel like I remember it was even asked of Phil a few times and he would try to dodge the question, probably as he was just looking for the right triangle fit at any position. So on draft night Frank sortve became the " ok stfu, I got us a PG but he'll fit the triangle"

I quoted it but really I'm just saying of course Frank fit the triangle. Hed have to for Phil to sign him but the fact that he took a pg instead of guys at any other position is because of this overarching theme that we couldn't walk out of that draft without one. All I'm saying is don't go into drafts where you're in the lottery taking about which need you have to fill or you might get burnt. It just so happens that this yr a PG may be the BPA and full a need at the same time.

Generally I'm all for BPA over "need" or fit, though in this draft, as others have said, if there is a lot of parity from 3-30, go for players that fit

[KnicksFTW]

People on this thread are okay with us sucking again next year? Guess just stick to what theyre comfortable with...lol

FVV isnt stellar but he provides a lot of what the Knicks need. He brings a winning mentality.

We keep singing rejects that put up good numbers and then want to trade them halfway through the season, not realizing that their numbers was fools gold and they are perennial losing players.

Who here thought Morris would be our best signing last year? Dude was the fourth option on a winning team and he turned out to be our best player and elevated his game.

You have to also take into account that we're not going to find guys like FVV overnight. We need to get RJ Mitch help now to elevate their play. So they know what it FEELS like to WIN. Even if its just a first round exit. Its promising.It builds confidence. Something you don't see on a fckn stat sheet.

I'm all in on FVV and I hope the reports are true that we sign him. No one is signing here in NYC until the Knicks show promise. I don't know how you guys fail to see that by us signing everyones leftovers the last 2 seasons.

[blanko]

So you think he's worth a near max contract? To me he's like a rich man's Charllie Ward. A very good stabilizing PG who is small but defends well and is a good 3pt shooter , but that's not something I would hand out allstar level money to.

Charlie ward never avg
17.6 6.6 while shooting 39% from 3


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And that's why I called him a rich mans version.

Thats not a rich mans version of charlie ward.

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[blanko]

Literally everything from the guard position.

On a non-max, non-highest years of service tier deal.

This is not the path to the treadmill. This is the stability you need to begin the ascent.

Not sure what else Fred has to do to prove his legitimacy.

Conley @ 1 year 30 million
Paul @ 2 years 40 million
FVV @ 4 years, 25 million

Pretending that all 3 are the Knicks choice, all have their plus/minus

Conley is the vet help/lowest commitment/stop gap
Paul is potentially the best player if he stays injury free, massive contract, though only 2 years
FVV is a good young player but will be the longest commitment, team needs to be sure he's a piece, even if he's a 3rd option eventually. Oh, and if he even wants to join the team and Toronto doesn't match etc.

I figure Toronto matches, as Lowry is 34 and will turn 35 next year

Conley if we can get rid of Randle and/or get pick(s)

Otherwise I am ok with none of those guys and being bad again next year.

This,
But hey if okc is hurting financially then they will trade cp3 with picks.

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[RHODEY]

Charlie ward never avg
17.6 6.6 while shooting 39% from 3


Sent from my SM-N960N using Tapatalk

And that's why I called him a rich mans version.

Thats not a rich mans version of charlie ward.

Sent from my SM-N960N using Tapatalk

He will be after that 20+ Million $ contract somebody gives him

[Jeff Van Gully]

Fred lit

[moocow007]

Glad someone else was thinking about this enough to write about it:

https://www.thestrick.land/strick/aron-baynes-free-agent-profile-knicks-2020

I mentioned Baynes as the free agent to sign in a discussion about possibly trading for Kelly Oubre and the 10th pick. For the exact same reasons. And he's not going to cost anywhere near cap choking territory like FVV would. Get guys that can make incremental improvements, skills that fit, has that competitive winning mentality that allows a team that is still rebuilding to keep its cap flexibility.

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[robillionaire]

Glad someone else was thinking about this enough to write about it:

https://www.thestrick.land/strick/aron-baynes-free-agent-profile-knicks-2020

I mentioned Baynes as the free agent to sign in a discussion about possibly trading for Kelly Oubre and the 10th pick. For the exact same reasons. And he's not going to cost anywhere near cap choking territory like FVV would. Get guys that can make incremental improvements, skills that fit, has that competitive winning mentality that allows a team that is still rebuilding to keep its cap flexibility.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

yeah I agree. FVV isn't good enough to drag a team to the playoffs if anything it would just win a couple more games and prevent us from getting a better draft pick that's about it. would be a massive overpayment for what is perceived as a 3rd option at the money he will command. except in typical knicks fashion we will expect him to be the first option. plus he's been terrible against boston. that said he probably wouldn't even sign here anyway

we need to be looking for some value, baynes would be a nice pickup

[thebuzzardman]

I'll put this here, though it could go in "offseason trades & FA". I've probably made a few of these points before, but with the season taking a zillion years to end and the draft nowhere in sight, let's do it again!

I'm looking for Rose/WWW/Perrin/Zanin/Aller to be making moves RIGHT AWAY
They don't have to be gigantic moves
But the Knicks have assets to make some kind of moves

IF they think that Ball or Hayes is worth burning an asset for (not RJ or Mitch), like a 2021 pick to move up for Ball (if the scouts and brain trust see him as a difference maker eventually) or that Hayes really solves the issues of PG but costs less to move up a spot or two in the draft, I want to see them do it.

If they can get FVV, I think they should do it
If they can get Oubre and the 10th pick, the should do it
Or Conley
Paul? Not sure. That's a STEEP amount of money for a 35 year old player with a significant injury history

Obviously what they do in the draft and FA influence each other, so FVV would mean no Conley and so on - it's obvious enough what the sensible combinations are, though the Knicks could get FVV AND draft a PG, in certain scenarios

Harris, Holiday, Bertrans, Grant, Baynes - different price points and realism of actually getting, all would be viable contributors to balancing out the team.

40 million in cap space
The 8 pick and 27 pick in the 2020 draft
Probably anywhere from 4-10 in the 2021 draft, with a shot at top 3, plus a probable 24th pick from the Mavs
Mav's 2023 pick - Somewhere between 22 and 27?

I just want to see a vision. Some aggressiveness.
40 million in cap space?
No WAY that shouldn't equate to a FVV AND salary taken on for an extra pick OR multiple salaries taken on for MULTIPLE picks OR a couple of role players in FA (Baynes\Holiday\Grant) AND taking on a player\salary for a pick

The Knicks aren't overloaded with talented youth to just be able to make ANY trade, but there is enough in the way of assets and cap space to make smart moves. If this FO is capable.

The good FO's know what their vision is, what value they assign players in a draft and FA, have a vision of where they want to get to and how to get there, a plan, a backup plan, a tertiary plan etc.

But with what Rose\WWW\Perrrin\Aller and maybe Zanin, plus the boy wonder scout etc, if they don't make something happen in both FA and the draft, I'm already going to start assuming maybe they aren't all that.

There's no way a competent FO shouldn't be able to make either a serious move, or at least really sensible iterative steps this offseason.

Also, I wish they'd get around to firing some of the dead wood in the FO Perry brought onboard. It's bad enough Perry is still around.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Glad someone else was thinking about this enough to write about it:

https://www.thestrick.land/strick/aron-baynes-free-agent-profile-knicks-2020

I mentioned Baynes as the free agent to sign in a discussion about possibly trading for Kelly Oubre and the 10th pick. For the exact same reasons. And he's not going to cost anywhere near cap choking territory like FVV would. Get guys that can make incremental improvements, skills that fit, has that competitive winning mentality that allows a team that is still rebuilding to keep its cap flexibility.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

yeah I agree. FVV isn't good enough to drag a team to the playoffs if anything it would just win a couple more games and prevent us from getting a better draft pick that's about it. would be a massive overpayment for what is perceived as a 3rd option at the money he will command. except in typical knicks fashion we will expect him to be the first option. plus he's been terrible against boston. that said he probably wouldn't even sign here anyway

we need to be looking for some value, baynes would be a nice pickup

He's the 3rd option on a playoff team right now, we'd be paying him with the expectation that he becomes a 3rd option in the future for us. Also, the last two seasons a team that wasn't flat out tanking got to move up to the top 3 in the draft, the Pelicans won 33 games and got the top pick, the Hornets were on pace for 27-30 wins and moved up to 3rd.

And saying he's been terrible against Bostons is just crazy talk, he hasn't shot well but he's the 2nd leading scorer, helped to completely shut down Kemba yesterday, is their 2nd best playmaker and they are playing him 40+mpg.

[robillionaire]

I mentioned Baynes as the free agent to sign in a discussion about possibly trading for Kelly Oubre and the 10th pick. For the exact same reasons. And he's not going to cost anywhere near cap choking territory like FVV would. Get guys that can make incremental improvements, skills that fit, has that competitive winning mentality that allows a team that is still rebuilding to keep its cap flexibility.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

yeah I agree. FVV isn't good enough to drag a team to the playoffs if anything it would just win a couple more games and prevent us from getting a better draft pick that's about it. would be a massive overpayment for what is perceived as a 3rd option at the money he will command. except in typical knicks fashion we will expect him to be the first option. plus he's been terrible against boston. that said he probably wouldn't even sign here anyway

we need to be looking for some value, baynes would be a nice pickup

He's the 3rd option on a playoff team right now, we'd be paying him with the expectation that he becomes a 3rd option in the future for us. Also, the last two seasons a team that wasn't flat out tanking got to move up to the top 3 in the draft, the Pelicans won 33 games and got the top pick, the Hornets were on pace for 27-30 wins and moved up to 3rd.

And saying he's been terrible against Bostons is just crazy talk, he hasn't shot well but he's the 2nd leading scorer, helped to completely shut down Kemba yesterday, is their 2nd best playmaker and they are playing him 40+mpg.

the 2nd leading scorer on 19.2 shots a game where he's shooting 33% fg% and 29% from 3, yeah that's bad sorry

we're going to pay this guy to come in and shoot 20 times a game

what about player development

[GONYK]

I mentioned Baynes as the free agent to sign in a discussion about possibly trading for Kelly Oubre and the 10th pick. For the exact same reasons. And he's not going to cost anywhere near cap choking territory like FVV would. Get guys that can make incremental improvements, skills that fit, has that competitive winning mentality that allows a team that is still rebuilding to keep its cap flexibility.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

yeah I agree. FVV isn't good enough to drag a team to the playoffs if anything it would just win a couple more games and prevent us from getting a better draft pick that's about it. would be a massive overpayment for what is perceived as a 3rd option at the money he will command. except in typical knicks fashion we will expect him to be the first option. plus he's been terrible against boston. that said he probably wouldn't even sign here anyway

we need to be looking for some value, baynes would be a nice pickup

He's the 3rd option on a playoff team right now, we'd be paying him with the expectation that he becomes a 3rd option in the future for us. Also, the last two seasons a team that wasn't flat out tanking got to move up to the top 3 in the draft, the Pelicans won 33 games and got the top pick, the Hornets were on pace for 27-30 wins and moved up to 3rd.

And saying he's been terrible against Bostons is just crazy talk, he hasn't shot well but he's the 2nd leading scorer, helped to completely shut down Kemba yesterday, is their 2nd best playmaker and they are playing him 40+mpg.

Also, the last few drafts have shown that tanking is a low value proposition, and if the Knicks had won a few more games, they would have gotten better picks.

All in all, the draft lottery is not a good reason to avoid clear upgrades in talent.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

yeah I agree. FVV isn't good enough to drag a team to the playoffs if anything it would just win a couple more games and prevent us from getting a better draft pick that's about it. would be a massive overpayment for what is perceived as a 3rd option at the money he will command. except in typical knicks fashion we will expect him to be the first option. plus he's been terrible against boston. that said he probably wouldn't even sign here anyway

we need to be looking for some value, baynes would be a nice pickup

He's the 3rd option on a playoff team right now, we'd be paying him with the expectation that he becomes a 3rd option in the future for us. Also, the last two seasons a team that wasn't flat out tanking got to move up to the top 3 in the draft, the Pelicans won 33 games and got the top pick, the Hornets were on pace for 27-30 wins and moved up to 3rd.

And saying he's been terrible against Bostons is just crazy talk, he hasn't shot well but he's the 2nd leading scorer, helped to completely shut down Kemba yesterday, is their 2nd best playmaker and they are playing him 40+mpg.

the 2nd leading scorer on 19.2 shots a game where he's shooting 33% fg% and 29% from 3, yeah that's bad sorry

we're going to pay this guy to come in and shoot 20 times a game

what about player development

No, we're going to pay him to run our offense and get guys involved and let RJ be the guy to take 20 shots per game. Fred shouldn't be shooting that much, he has to right now because he and Lowry are the only guys on the team that can consistently get off shots against the Celtics. He's been thrust into the 2nd scorer role because Siakam is getting shut down, even then you're acting like his play is the reason why the Raptors lost 3 games, when it should be his play in several of these games are why they won, his play in the 3rd quarter last night is how they took the lead. His impact on the game goes beyond just scoring, his playmaking and defense alone have made him invaluable to the Raptors, which is why Nurse plays him so much.

How does he stop player development? You can still draft one of the bigger PG's and play him in a backcourt with lets say Haliburton where both guys can run offense, and it would give us 3 ball handlers with their own distinct skills and strengths.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Glad someone else was thinking about this enough to write about it:

https://www.thestrick.land/strick/aron-baynes-free-agent-profile-knicks-2020

I mentioned Baynes as the free agent to sign in a discussion about possibly trading for Kelly Oubre and the 10th pick. For the exact same reasons. And he's not going to cost anywhere near cap choking territory like FVV would. Get guys that can make incremental improvements, skills that fit, has that competitive winning mentality that allows a team that is still rebuilding to keep its cap flexibility.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

yeah I agree. FVV isn't good enough to drag a team to the playoffs if anything it would just win a couple more games and prevent us from getting a better draft pick that's about it. would be a massive overpayment for what is perceived as a 3rd option at the money he will command. except in typical knicks fashion we will expect him to be the first option. plus he's been terrible against boston. that said he probably wouldn't even sign here anyway

we need to be looking for some value, baynes would be a nice pickup

Yea, it's never a good to overpay a non-star that much when your a bad team. FVV is a good player, but not THAT good. Tor is a good spot cause him and Lowry can take turns. Not sure FVV is a guy you really want to be you #1 fulltime lead guard and expect to be a good team. He could end up struggling here in a much bigger role as the #1 guy, as players usually do.

[moocow007]

I mentioned Baynes as the free agent to sign in a discussion about possibly trading for Kelly Oubre and the 10th pick. For the exact same reasons. And he's not going to cost anywhere near cap choking territory like FVV would. Get guys that can make incremental improvements, skills that fit, has that competitive winning mentality that allows a team that is still rebuilding to keep its cap flexibility.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

yeah I agree. FVV isn't good enough to drag a team to the playoffs if anything it would just win a couple more games and prevent us from getting a better draft pick that's about it. would be a massive overpayment for what is perceived as a 3rd option at the money he will command. except in typical knicks fashion we will expect him to be the first option. plus he's been terrible against boston. that said he probably wouldn't even sign here anyway

we need to be looking for some value, baynes would be a nice pickup

Yea, it's never a good to overpay a non-star that much when your a bad team. FVV is a good player, but not THAT good. Tor is a good spot cause him and Lowry can take turns. Not sure FVV is a guy you really want to be you #1 fulltime lead guard and expect to be a good team. He could end up struggling here in a much bigger role as the #1 guy, as players usually do.

Pretty much...especially if he's the biggest get in the offseason. Fans will expect FVV to pull miracles out his butt and when he can't (and he doesn't have the talent to do it) they'll turn on him right quick. The Knicks cannot pay someone like a 1st option and reasonable try to explain to their fan base masses that "don't look at it that way, look at him as a future 3rd option when...". That's not going to work, not in NY of all places.

FVV is a fine player. No one is discounting that. But not for a team like the Knicks, not for the perceived role he'll get with that contract they'll need to give him. How do I know? Just look at the Knicks fans current public enemy no.1. It doesn't matter if FVV is a better passer or a better 3 point shooter, he won't be able to carry the load and the expectations anymore than the current escapegoat can cause he's not talented enough (just like the current guy).

And before anyone says maybe we can get him for cheap. Yeah if you can get FVV for cheap then go for it. But we're talking about a team that can't afford to lose players cause they aren't a place that can attract free agents (despite winning a title and being a top team). The Knicks will have to go into near max territory to get him out of Toronto and 4 years $123 million will make slap that target on the back of his uniform big time when (not if) he can't turn this team around all by himself.

[DickGrayson]

I'm not against these moves. All these 3 cats can ball efficiently.

[UnFadeable21]

Read on Twitter

?s=21

This is the same guy who created Legion Hoops which has 400k followers on twitter.

[UnFadeable21]

Knowing Tom Thibodeau very well since I had season tickets for two years of his coaching tenure. He loves tough point guard that can shoot.