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2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome)

Moderators: GONYK, K-DOT, Deeeez Knicks, Capn'O, Thugger HBC, j4remi, Jeff Van Gully, mrpoetryNmotion, mpharris36, NoLayupRule, King of Canada

Who are you voting for?

Donald Trump
27
29%
Joe Biden
55
59%
Howie Hawkins
3
3%
Jo Jorgensen
3
3%
Kanye West
6
6%
 
Total votes: 94

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Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1261 » by thebuzzardman » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:43 pm

K-DOT wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
I have pointed that out many times unless a libertarian candidate can actually win its a wasted vote.

I don't want to blow up the values and beliefs of western civilization. But in terms of the way we vote and basically are forced to vote for one of two parties I don't agree there.

Look at it like healthcare I don't want someone to tell me what doctor I have to use I want to pick my own and pay for my own policy. You can use that same logic on how I feel about our elected officials. I don't want to be told which two pick from I would in theory like to the individual that closely aligns to my beliefs.


I used to be a libertarian until I read all the literature and realized it's just a right wing Austrian economic bullsh*t cover to make conservatives feel intellectually fancy.

Oh, with a dose of "leave me alone and let me do drugs and hookers and whatever"

Which is fine - sort of like a pie in the sky yearning for the real freedom that America has always talked about but never really delivered. Which is noble.
The economics of it is plate full of steaming turds.

Libertarian Paradise
Spoiler:
I was shooting heroin and reading “The Fountainhead” in the front seat of my privately owned police cruiser when a call came in. I put a quarter in the radio to activate it. It was the chief.

“Bad news, detective. We got a situation.”

“What? Is the mayor trying to ban trans fats again?”

“Worse. Somebody just stole four hundred and forty-seven million dollars’ worth of bitcoins.”

The heroin needle practically fell out of my arm. “What kind of monster would do something like that? Bitcoins are the ultimate currency: virtual, anonymous, stateless. They represent true economic freedom, not subject to arbitrary manipulation by any government. Do we have any leads?”

“Not yet. But mark my words: we’re going to figure out who did this and we’re going to take them down … provided someone pays us a fair market rate to do so.”

“Easy, chief,” I said. “Any rate the market offers is, by definition, fair.”

He laughed. “That’s why you’re the best I got, Lisowski. Now you get out there and find those bitcoins.”

“Don’t worry,” I said. “I’m on it.”

I put a quarter in the siren. Ten minutes later, I was on the scene. It was a normal office building, strangled on all sides by public sidewalks. I hopped over them and went inside.

“Home Depot™ Presents the Police!®” I said, flashing my badge and my gun and a small picture of Ron Paul. “Nobody move unless you want to!” They didn’t.

“Now, which one of you punks is going to pay me to investigate this crime?” No one spoke up.

“Come on,” I said. “Don’t you all understand that the protection of private property is the foundation of all personal liberty?”

It didn’t seem like they did.

“Seriously, guys. Without a strong economic motivator, I’m just going to stand here and not solve this case. Cash is fine, but I prefer being paid in gold bullion or autographed Penn Jillette posters.”

Nothing. These people were stonewalling me. It almost seemed like they didn’t care that a fortune in computer money invented to buy drugs was missing.

I figured I could wait them out. I lit several cigarettes indoors. A pregnant lady coughed, and I told her that secondhand smoke is a myth. Just then, a man in glasses made a break for it.

“Subway™ Eat Fresh and Freeze, Scumbag!®” I yelled.

Too late. He was already out the front door. I went after him.

“Stop right there!” I yelled as I ran. He was faster than me because I always try to avoid stepping on public sidewalks. Our country needs a private-sidewalk voucher system, but, thanks to the incestuous interplay between our corrupt federal government and the public-sidewalk lobby, it will never happen.

I was losing him. “Listen, I’ll pay you to stop!” I yelled. “What would you consider an appropriate price point for stopping? I’ll offer you a thirteenth of an ounce of gold and a gently worn ‘Bob Barr ‘08’ extra-large long-sleeved men’s T-shirt!”

He turned. In his hand was a revolver that the Constitution said he had every right to own. He fired at me and missed. I pulled my own gun, put a quarter in it, and fired back. The bullet lodged in a U.S.P.S. mailbox less than a foot from his head. I shot the mailbox again, on purpose.

“All right, all right!” the man yelled, throwing down his weapon. “I give up, cop! I confess: I took the bitcoins.”

“Why’d you do it?” I asked, as I slapped a pair of Oikos™ Greek Yogurt Presents Handcuffs® on the guy.

“Because I was afraid.”

“Afraid?”

“Afraid of an economic future free from the pernicious meddling of central bankers,” he said. “I’m a central banker.”

I wanted to coldcock the guy. Years ago, a central banker killed my partner. Instead, I shook my head.

“Let this be a message to all your central-banker friends out on the street,” I said. “No matter how many bitcoins you steal, you’ll never take away the dream of an open society based on the principles of personal and economic freedom.”

He nodded, because he knew I was right. Then he swiped his credit card to pay me for arresting him.


“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."


Or like, play Bioshock. I haven't played the originals, but I've seen people play them, and I played Infinite. Great critiques of libertarainism.


That Libertarian paradise is awesome.

BTW, I didn't mean to sh*t on anyone's head for being into it.
I was, when I was younger.

For all the BITS AND PIECES of it that are good, it's basically a bunch of intransigent aholes.

And I COMPLETELY get how people all across the political spectrum are frustrated with the current state of US politics (meaning last 10,20,30,40 years, take your pick) but turning over everything to what are basically extremists isn't the answer. Ok, extremists-lite.
And left wing extremists aren't the answer either.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1262 » by HarthorneWingo » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:47 pm

2010 wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
K-DOT wrote:How can you say you want to blow it all up but you vote for the most pro-establishment party?


I have pointed that out many times unless a libertarian candidate can actually win its a wasted vote.

I don't want to blow up the values and beliefs of western civilization. But in terms of the way we vote and basically are forced to vote for one of two parties I don't agree there.

Look at it like healthcare I don't want someone to tell me what doctor I have to use I want to pick my own and pay for my own policy. You can use that same logic on how I feel about our elected officials. I don't want to be told which two pick from I would in theory like to the individual that closely aligns to my beliefs.


Some of those same values and beliefs of western civilization are a direct affront to the mere existence of some of us. Which is why I am of the idealist mindset of just hoping this whole system crumbles. No more amendments. We need to rip up the paper at some point and rewrite it with the benefits of ALL in mind.


Oh no, you can't come up with better ideas for governance and an enlightened society. That would be un-American. You have to do it the way they set it up 300 years ago.

More guns!
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1263 » by K-DOT » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:49 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:
K-DOT wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
I used to be a libertarian until I read all the literature and realized it's just a right wing Austrian economic bullsh*t cover to make conservatives feel intellectually fancy.

Oh, with a dose of "leave me alone and let me do drugs and hookers and whatever"

Which is fine - sort of like a pie in the sky yearning for the real freedom that America has always talked about but never really delivered. Which is noble.
The economics of it is plate full of steaming turds.

Libertarian Paradise
Spoiler:
I was shooting heroin and reading “The Fountainhead” in the front seat of my privately owned police cruiser when a call came in. I put a quarter in the radio to activate it. It was the chief.

“Bad news, detective. We got a situation.”

“What? Is the mayor trying to ban trans fats again?”

“Worse. Somebody just stole four hundred and forty-seven million dollars’ worth of bitcoins.”

The heroin needle practically fell out of my arm. “What kind of monster would do something like that? Bitcoins are the ultimate currency: virtual, anonymous, stateless. They represent true economic freedom, not subject to arbitrary manipulation by any government. Do we have any leads?”

“Not yet. But mark my words: we’re going to figure out who did this and we’re going to take them down … provided someone pays us a fair market rate to do so.”

“Easy, chief,” I said. “Any rate the market offers is, by definition, fair.”

He laughed. “That’s why you’re the best I got, Lisowski. Now you get out there and find those bitcoins.”

“Don’t worry,” I said. “I’m on it.”

I put a quarter in the siren. Ten minutes later, I was on the scene. It was a normal office building, strangled on all sides by public sidewalks. I hopped over them and went inside.

“Home Depot™ Presents the Police!®” I said, flashing my badge and my gun and a small picture of Ron Paul. “Nobody move unless you want to!” They didn’t.

“Now, which one of you punks is going to pay me to investigate this crime?” No one spoke up.

“Come on,” I said. “Don’t you all understand that the protection of private property is the foundation of all personal liberty?”

It didn’t seem like they did.

“Seriously, guys. Without a strong economic motivator, I’m just going to stand here and not solve this case. Cash is fine, but I prefer being paid in gold bullion or autographed Penn Jillette posters.”

Nothing. These people were stonewalling me. It almost seemed like they didn’t care that a fortune in computer money invented to buy drugs was missing.

I figured I could wait them out. I lit several cigarettes indoors. A pregnant lady coughed, and I told her that secondhand smoke is a myth. Just then, a man in glasses made a break for it.

“Subway™ Eat Fresh and Freeze, Scumbag!®” I yelled.

Too late. He was already out the front door. I went after him.

“Stop right there!” I yelled as I ran. He was faster than me because I always try to avoid stepping on public sidewalks. Our country needs a private-sidewalk voucher system, but, thanks to the incestuous interplay between our corrupt federal government and the public-sidewalk lobby, it will never happen.

I was losing him. “Listen, I’ll pay you to stop!” I yelled. “What would you consider an appropriate price point for stopping? I’ll offer you a thirteenth of an ounce of gold and a gently worn ‘Bob Barr ‘08’ extra-large long-sleeved men’s T-shirt!”

He turned. In his hand was a revolver that the Constitution said he had every right to own. He fired at me and missed. I pulled my own gun, put a quarter in it, and fired back. The bullet lodged in a U.S.P.S. mailbox less than a foot from his head. I shot the mailbox again, on purpose.

“All right, all right!” the man yelled, throwing down his weapon. “I give up, cop! I confess: I took the bitcoins.”

“Why’d you do it?” I asked, as I slapped a pair of Oikos™ Greek Yogurt Presents Handcuffs® on the guy.

“Because I was afraid.”

“Afraid?”

“Afraid of an economic future free from the pernicious meddling of central bankers,” he said. “I’m a central banker.”

I wanted to coldcock the guy. Years ago, a central banker killed my partner. Instead, I shook my head.

“Let this be a message to all your central-banker friends out on the street,” I said. “No matter how many bitcoins you steal, you’ll never take away the dream of an open society based on the principles of personal and economic freedom.”

He nodded, because he knew I was right. Then he swiped his credit card to pay me for arresting him.


“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."


Or like, play Bioshock. I haven't played the originals, but I've seen people play them, and I played Infinite. Great critiques of libertarainism.


That Libertarian paradise is awesome.

BTW, I didn't mean to sh*t on anyone's head for being into it.
I was, when I was younger.

For all the BITS AND PIECES of it that are good, it's basically a bunch of intransigent aholes.

And I COMPLETELY get how people all across the political spectrum are frustrated with the current state of US politics (meaning last 10,20,30,40 years, take your pick) but turning over everything to what are basically extremists isn't the answer. Ok, extremists-lite.
And left wing extremists aren't the answer either.

I understand why it's appealing

In theory it sounds great, personal freedoms, you get to do what you want, who wouldn't want that?

But in practice, it sucks because there is no such thing as the free market, and there will always be bad faith actors who game the system for their own benefit at the expense of others. It's like Communism, on paper it works fine, but in practice it kinda sucks cause people suck

There's also like, almost no left wing extremists in the US. I'd be concerned if there were people planning the glorious revolution where we rise up and overthrow the capitalist overlords and install comrade Sanders as dictator, but they really aren't a factor

Right wing extremism is pretty rampant, especially because that encompasses Islamic extremism, who are on the right wing, as much as Republicans don't want to say so. I mean, you think about what some of these religious folk want for us, it's basically what they have in the Middle East with their theocracies, just we say God instead of Allah.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1264 » by K-DOT » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:50 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
2010 wrote:Some of those same values and beliefs of western civilization are a direct affront to the mere existence of some of us. Which is why I am of the idealist mindset of just hoping this whole system crumbles. No more amendments. We need to rip up the paper at some point and rewrite it with the benefits of ALL in mind.


Oh no, you can't come up with better ideas for governance and an enlightened society. That would be un-American. You have to do it the way they set it up 300 years ago.

More guns!

BAF Lakers:

Darius Garland/Carsen Edwards
Eric Gordon/Avery Bradley
Cam Johnson/Keldon Johnson
Obi Toppin/Darius Bazley
Goga Bitadze/Bol Bol

rip Josh Jackson's contract
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1265 » by 2010 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:50 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
2010 wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
I have pointed that out many times unless a libertarian candidate can actually win its a wasted vote.

I don't want to blow up the values and beliefs of western civilization. But in terms of the way we vote and basically are forced to vote for one of two parties I don't agree there.

Look at it like healthcare I don't want someone to tell me what doctor I have to use I want to pick my own and pay for my own policy. You can use that same logic on how I feel about our elected officials. I don't want to be told which two pick from I would in theory like to the individual that closely aligns to my beliefs.


Some of those same values and beliefs of western civilization are a direct affront to the mere existence of some of us. Which is why I am of the idealist mindset of just hoping this whole system crumbles. No more amendments. We need to rip up the paper at some point and rewrite it with the benefits of ALL in mind.


Oh no, you can't come up with better ideas for governance and an enlightened society. That would be un-American. You have to do it the way they set it up 300 years ago.

More guns!


Only those who have their ill-gained privilege and lofty status threatened, react with such a mindset. Which is why anyone who thinks beyond their own personal benefit would be unwise to vote for Trump.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1266 » by mpharris36 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:52 pm

j4remi wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:To be fair Europe was working with the US in terms of sharing information and data. You can understand being skeptical of a country where the virus started yet they weren't forthright with any information, no?

Also a question, are we judging covid response by death or death rate? Just trying to be on the same page because if the argument is 196k deaths. While states like TX and FL were destroyed for there covid responses and Cuomo asking for praise for his response the death rates aren't even comparable to a state like NY and NJ.


I'd like to jump onto this last question, but quick disclaimer that I just clicked on the last page after a busy afternoon and I may have missed a bunch of context. So my bad if I miss a bit.

Anyway just to qualify my take here:
- I seriously loath Cuomo dating back to when he broke up a corruption probe for getting too close to his cronies. Also I'm mostly indifferent to Murphy...better than Christie but that's a low bar.
- I work at a medical library. Not claiming expertise, but my job entails looking at what the community is using and citing for research so that I can make sure my library has everything available.
- And the refrigerated truck images and long lines for COVID tests both included images from right outside my job. This hit close to home in a very literal sense.

Anyway, all of that to say...I thought Cuomo's and Murphy's responses were bad but if we're talking about relative comparisons; these guys got screwed. There was hardly any data about what treatments worked; resource limitations were at their worst; and while the scientific data was rapidly being produced, NY and NJ were hit before much of anything that we could consider actually conclusive had been reached.

It's important to remember that the science was and is still evolving. As we compile more data conclusions either become more clearly correct or in need of corrections. This is true on how we look at effective treatments, mitigation procedures and even resource preparation. Most importantly, basically all of the research I saw from the Feb.-April period was freely available and almost entirely about COVID. The Cancer research center at Columbia was holding weekly symposiums to update everybody on how their prior research might inform handling of COVID; a big donation allowed an HIV researcher to start an RNA lab focused on coronviruses research if I'm not mistaken too (it's been a while).

So I mention that last bit because the information was coming in rapidly. A scientific conclusion might get reviewed, called out, retested and then retracted over a chunk of time normally. But here we were seeing advice given to the best knowledge available and then very quickly being adjusted because a TON of data was compiling rapidly. Sometimes the data conflicted or there wasn't enough to go off of so the advice was either limited or paired with rhetoric that meant it was subject to change (an aside: honestly you see this rhetoric everywhere in scientific publishing; there are headlines about proof of life on Venus but if you look at the paper it makes it clear that they haven't reached that conclusion, just eliminated essentially all of the other reasonable expectations they could test for). What's important here is that, this explains why the suggestions shifted in some circumstances.

An easy example on that is the masks debate. That was legitimately up for discussion early on but pretty quickly we saw the efficacy of masks in the data and the CDC changed advice. This wasn't some conspiracy, their logic was explained when they made the first ruling and then when they made the adjustment. The problem is people locked in to the first decision and ignored the fact that new data had come out in droves which created a consensus. It's not a debate any more, hasn't been for a very long time and honestly I think it only ever was because of the resource limitations early on (educating people on proper mask wearing was also mentioned but it was never an immovable obstacle).

Okay so that's a LOT of writing, I'll try to keep this part brief. What separates Cuomo and Murphy from governors like DeSantis is that they followed scientific consensus. The mistakes they made early on should have informed adjustments to the approach, but DeSantis and some others pointed to those mistakes as a reason to ignore better informed conclusions and advice. Measuring death rates or deaths would ignore that crucial context. Cuomo and Murphy were late, could have saved lives by practicing caution sooner, but corrected course and their decisions mitigated the long term damage. DeSantis had enough time and warning to make adjustments that mitigated the damage before things escalated but he ignored the warning signs and consensus. That sort of logic essentially tracks; the later a governor's state was hit the better they're SUPPOSED to do on measures like deaths and death rates. They have better data, preparation and medical advice to work with.

Last bit I promise...Cuomo and Murphy get more credit than I think they deserve, but the context which makes us laud how they performed is that the information handicap they faced informs their mistakes rather than just plain ignoring what the experts were saying. When they realized things were bad, they followed science. Places like TX and FL saw how bad things could get and still decided to go with the economy over caution approach, so their failures end up being more about ignoring the experts than a lack of valuable data.


There is a lot there remi and I think I agree with a lot of what you said.

My point wasn't to simply chastise the NY and NJ response because they were hit a lot earlier then other areas when it started to hit us. I think a lot of this virus was unknown and that is why I think anyone suggesting knowing they would do something completely different 6 months ago is lying to themselves. We were learning on the fly.

I will say this my family hasn't caught it. I went to the grocery store for my parents and dropped it off to them because they are more susceptible. I wear a mask and every-time I am out. I do my part.

I do understand peoples frustration though, not with the mask thing, that is ridiculous. But the opening of the country type of stuff. People need to make money some people aren't as fortunate like myself where I can make money working from home on a computer. Its easy to sit here and say hey you don't make any money for the next year and go broke. I think everyone is in a different position but I do agree I think there is no excuse not to wear a mask.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1267 » by HarthorneWingo » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:54 pm

K-DOT wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
2010 wrote:Some of those same values and beliefs of western civilization are a direct affront to the mere existence of some of us. Which is why I am of the idealist mindset of just hoping this whole system crumbles. No more amendments. We need to rip up the paper at some point and rewrite it with the benefits of ALL in mind.


Oh no, you can't come up with better ideas for governance and an enlightened society. That would be un-American. You have to do it the way they set it up 300 years ago.

More guns!



:lol: Ever see this one?

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Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1268 » by K-DOT » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:56 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
K-DOT wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
Oh no, you can't come up with better ideas for governance and an enlightened society. That would be un-American. You have to do it the way they set it up 300 years ago.

More guns!



:lol: Ever see this one?


I like this one

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Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1269 » by mpharris36 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:19 pm

2010 wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
K-DOT wrote:How can you say you want to blow it all up but you vote for the most pro-establishment party?


I have pointed that out many times unless a libertarian candidate can actually win its a wasted vote.

I don't want to blow up the values and beliefs of western civilization. But in terms of the way we vote and basically are forced to vote for one of two parties I don't agree there.

Look at it like healthcare I don't want someone to tell me what doctor I have to use I want to pick my own and pay for my own policy. You can use that same logic on how I feel about our elected officials. I don't want to be told which two pick from I would in theory like to the individual that closely aligns to my beliefs.


Some of those same values and beliefs of western civilization are a direct affront to the mere existence of some of us. Which is why I am of the idealist mindset of just hoping this whole system crumbles. No more amendments. We need to rip up the paper at some point and rewrite it with the benefits of ALL in mind.


The sytem in terms of political parties or the system in terms of anarchy like tearing down and burning everything that built this country? I'm not here saying there weren't major travesties and mistakes along the way. I think we can all acknowledge that.

I am open to some dialoge and if you would like to take this via PM we can too because I feel those can be the most sincere conversations since its more 1 on 1.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1270 » by j4remi » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:24 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
j4remi wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:To be fair Europe was working with the US in terms of sharing information and data. You can understand being skeptical of a country where the virus started yet they weren't forthright with any information, no?

Also a question, are we judging covid response by death or death rate? Just trying to be on the same page because if the argument is 196k deaths. While states like TX and FL were destroyed for there covid responses and Cuomo asking for praise for his response the death rates aren't even comparable to a state like NY and NJ.


I'd like to jump onto this last question, but quick disclaimer that I just clicked on the last page after a busy afternoon and I may have missed a bunch of context. So my bad if I miss a bit.

Anyway just to qualify my take here:
- I seriously loath Cuomo dating back to when he broke up a corruption probe for getting too close to his cronies. Also I'm mostly indifferent to Murphy...better than Christie but that's a low bar.
- I work at a medical library. Not claiming expertise, but my job entails looking at what the community is using and citing for research so that I can make sure my library has everything available.
- And the refrigerated truck images and long lines for COVID tests both included images from right outside my job. This hit close to home in a very literal sense.

Anyway, all of that to say...I thought Cuomo's and Murphy's responses were bad but if we're talking about relative comparisons; these guys got screwed. There was hardly any data about what treatments worked; resource limitations were at their worst; and while the scientific data was rapidly being produced, NY and NJ were hit before much of anything that we could consider actually conclusive had been reached.

It's important to remember that the science was and is still evolving. As we compile more data conclusions either become more clearly correct or in need of corrections. This is true on how we look at effective treatments, mitigation procedures and even resource preparation. Most importantly, basically all of the research I saw from the Feb.-April period was freely available and almost entirely about COVID. The Cancer research center at Columbia was holding weekly symposiums to update everybody on how their prior research might inform handling of COVID; a big donation allowed an HIV researcher to start an RNA lab focused on coronviruses research if I'm not mistaken too (it's been a while).

So I mention that last bit because the information was coming in rapidly. A scientific conclusion might get reviewed, called out, retested and then retracted over a chunk of time normally. But here we were seeing advice given to the best knowledge available and then very quickly being adjusted because a TON of data was compiling rapidly. Sometimes the data conflicted or there wasn't enough to go off of so the advice was either limited or paired with rhetoric that meant it was subject to change (an aside: honestly you see this rhetoric everywhere in scientific publishing; there are headlines about proof of life on Venus but if you look at the paper it makes it clear that they haven't reached that conclusion, just eliminated essentially all of the other reasonable expectations they could test for). What's important here is that, this explains why the suggestions shifted in some circumstances.

An easy example on that is the masks debate. That was legitimately up for discussion early on but pretty quickly we saw the efficacy of masks in the data and the CDC changed advice. This wasn't some conspiracy, their logic was explained when they made the first ruling and then when they made the adjustment. The problem is people locked in to the first decision and ignored the fact that new data had come out in droves which created a consensus. It's not a debate any more, hasn't been for a very long time and honestly I think it only ever was because of the resource limitations early on (educating people on proper mask wearing was also mentioned but it was never an immovable obstacle).

Okay so that's a LOT of writing, I'll try to keep this part brief. What separates Cuomo and Murphy from governors like DeSantis is that they followed scientific consensus. The mistakes they made early on should have informed adjustments to the approach, but DeSantis and some others pointed to those mistakes as a reason to ignore better informed conclusions and advice. Measuring death rates or deaths would ignore that crucial context. Cuomo and Murphy were late, could have saved lives by practicing caution sooner, but corrected course and their decisions mitigated the long term damage. DeSantis had enough time and warning to make adjustments that mitigated the damage before things escalated but he ignored the warning signs and consensus. That sort of logic essentially tracks; the later a governor's state was hit the better they're SUPPOSED to do on measures like deaths and death rates. They have better data, preparation and medical advice to work with.

Last bit I promise...Cuomo and Murphy get more credit than I think they deserve, but the context which makes us laud how they performed is that the information handicap they faced informs their mistakes rather than just plain ignoring what the experts were saying. When they realized things were bad, they followed science. Places like TX and FL saw how bad things could get and still decided to go with the economy over caution approach, so their failures end up being more about ignoring the experts than a lack of valuable data.


There is a lot there remi and I think I agree with a lot of what you said.

My point wasn't to simply chastise the NY and NJ response because they were hit a lot earlier then other areas when stuff . I think a lot of this virus was unknown and that is why I think anyone suggesting knowing they would dos something completely different 6 months ago is lying to themselves. We were learning on the fly.

I will say this my family hasn't caught it. I went to the grocery store for my parents and dropped it off to them because they are more susceptible. I wear a mask and every-time I am out. I do my part.

I do understand peoples frustration though, not with the mask thing, that is ridiculous. But the opening of the country type of stuff. People need to make money some people aren't as fortunate like myself where I can make money working from home on a computer. Its easy to sit here and say hey you don't make any money for the next year and go broke. I think everyone is in a different position but I do agree I think there is no excuse not to wear a mask.


I feel you 100% there. From my gym owner friends to a whole bunch of my younger family members in the service industry; there's a lot of stress that has come from this lock down and I absolutely understand the frustration. When Jersey opened to 25% capacity a lot of them were basically like, "we can't survive off of that little" and I completely get it.

My two thoughts on it though are that are first; the reason for the caution is to avoid prolonging this. If they rush the reopen, there's a chance we hit a second wave and have to start from scratch instead of opening slowly. And second; I think the government should have done more in relief of those people, especially for the business owners who got skipped over last time. I think paycheck guarantee programs that have had some success in other countries are at a minimum worth being explored. Essentially, you're paying now so that people have the relief they need to stay home without their lives being damaged either by illness or financial pain and you're avoiding what would be a much more prolonged and expensive process on the back end if the virus continues to run at high infection rates. But you know I'm a hard body lefty so I feel you if you don't agree with my methodology.

I just wanna stress though, we've got the same goals. Healthy and financially stable friends and family...and everyone else too. Much respect for going the extra nine for your loved ones and I mean that from the heart fam.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1271 » by Fury » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:25 pm

**** off if you support this:

Read on Twitter
?s=21

**** your both sides

Read on Twitter
?s=21

**** you

Read on Twitter
?s=21

There’s no **** both sides. Dude is a piece of **** to the lowest degree and you’re with him if you support his bs.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1272 » by mpharris36 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:59 pm

j4remi wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
j4remi wrote:
I'd like to jump onto this last question, but quick disclaimer that I just clicked on the last page after a busy afternoon and I may have missed a bunch of context. So my bad if I miss a bit.

Anyway just to qualify my take here:
- I seriously loath Cuomo dating back to when he broke up a corruption probe for getting too close to his cronies. Also I'm mostly indifferent to Murphy...better than Christie but that's a low bar.
- I work at a medical library. Not claiming expertise, but my job entails looking at what the community is using and citing for research so that I can make sure my library has everything available.
- And the refrigerated truck images and long lines for COVID tests both included images from right outside my job. This hit close to home in a very literal sense.

Anyway, all of that to say...I thought Cuomo's and Murphy's responses were bad but if we're talking about relative comparisons; these guys got screwed. There was hardly any data about what treatments worked; resource limitations were at their worst; and while the scientific data was rapidly being produced, NY and NJ were hit before much of anything that we could consider actually conclusive had been reached.

It's important to remember that the science was and is still evolving. As we compile more data conclusions either become more clearly correct or in need of corrections. This is true on how we look at effective treatments, mitigation procedures and even resource preparation. Most importantly, basically all of the research I saw from the Feb.-April period was freely available and almost entirely about COVID. The Cancer research center at Columbia was holding weekly symposiums to update everybody on how their prior research might inform handling of COVID; a big donation allowed an HIV researcher to start an RNA lab focused on coronviruses research if I'm not mistaken too (it's been a while).

So I mention that last bit because the information was coming in rapidly. A scientific conclusion might get reviewed, called out, retested and then retracted over a chunk of time normally. But here we were seeing advice given to the best knowledge available and then very quickly being adjusted because a TON of data was compiling rapidly. Sometimes the data conflicted or there wasn't enough to go off of so the advice was either limited or paired with rhetoric that meant it was subject to change (an aside: honestly you see this rhetoric everywhere in scientific publishing; there are headlines about proof of life on Venus but if you look at the paper it makes it clear that they haven't reached that conclusion, just eliminated essentially all of the other reasonable expectations they could test for). What's important here is that, this explains why the suggestions shifted in some circumstances.

An easy example on that is the masks debate. That was legitimately up for discussion early on but pretty quickly we saw the efficacy of masks in the data and the CDC changed advice. This wasn't some conspiracy, their logic was explained when they made the first ruling and then when they made the adjustment. The problem is people locked in to the first decision and ignored the fact that new data had come out in droves which created a consensus. It's not a debate any more, hasn't been for a very long time and honestly I think it only ever was because of the resource limitations early on (educating people on proper mask wearing was also mentioned but it was never an immovable obstacle).

Okay so that's a LOT of writing, I'll try to keep this part brief. What separates Cuomo and Murphy from governors like DeSantis is that they followed scientific consensus. The mistakes they made early on should have informed adjustments to the approach, but DeSantis and some others pointed to those mistakes as a reason to ignore better informed conclusions and advice. Measuring death rates or deaths would ignore that crucial context. Cuomo and Murphy were late, could have saved lives by practicing caution sooner, but corrected course and their decisions mitigated the long term damage. DeSantis had enough time and warning to make adjustments that mitigated the damage before things escalated but he ignored the warning signs and consensus. That sort of logic essentially tracks; the later a governor's state was hit the better they're SUPPOSED to do on measures like deaths and death rates. They have better data, preparation and medical advice to work with.

Last bit I promise...Cuomo and Murphy get more credit than I think they deserve, but the context which makes us laud how they performed is that the information handicap they faced informs their mistakes rather than just plain ignoring what the experts were saying. When they realized things were bad, they followed science. Places like TX and FL saw how bad things could get and still decided to go with the economy over caution approach, so their failures end up being more about ignoring the experts than a lack of valuable data.


There is a lot there remi and I think I agree with a lot of what you said.

My point wasn't to simply chastise the NY and NJ response because they were hit a lot earlier then other areas when stuff . I think a lot of this virus was unknown and that is why I think anyone suggesting knowing they would dos something completely different 6 months ago is lying to themselves. We were learning on the fly.

I will say this my family hasn't caught it. I went to the grocery store for my parents and dropped it off to them because they are more susceptible. I wear a mask and every-time I am out. I do my part.

I do understand peoples frustration though, not with the mask thing, that is ridiculous. But the opening of the country type of stuff. People need to make money some people aren't as fortunate like myself where I can make money working from home on a computer. Its easy to sit here and say hey you don't make any money for the next year and go broke. I think everyone is in a different position but I do agree I think there is no excuse not to wear a mask.


I feel you 100% there. From my gym owner friends to a whole bunch of my younger family members in the service industry; there's a lot of stress that has come from this lock down and I absolutely understand the frustration. When Jersey opened to 25% capacity a lot of them were basically like, "we can't survive off of that little" and I completely get it.

My two thoughts on it though are that are first; the reason for the caution is to avoid prolonging this. If they rush the reopen, there's a chance we hit a second wave and have to start from scratch instead of opening slowly. And second; I think the government should have done more in relief of those people, especially for the business owners who got skipped over last time. I think paycheck guarantee programs that have had some success in other countries are at a minimum worth being explored. Essentially, you're paying now so that people have the relief they need to stay home without their lives being damaged either by illness or financial pain and you're avoiding what would be a much more prolonged and expensive process on the back end if the virus continues to run at high infection rates. But you know I'm a hard body lefty so I feel you if you don't agree with my methodology.

I just wanna stress though, we've got the same goals. Healthy and financially stable friends and family...and everyone else too. Much respect for going the extra nine for your loved ones and I mean that from the heart fam.


I completely understand where you are coming from.

I'm sure if in middle of march it was told if everyone just stays inside for 1 month and we will be over this then people would have done it. But what certainty would there be? You would literally have to bubble the entire country because COVID is still effecting other countries all it would take in theory is one positive person to fly into the country even if everyone was quarantining to stop the spread. It would be so challenging because of how many "silent" carries there have been for a virus that is so contagious.

The good thing I haven't seen one person without a mask out where I am from in CT. I have seen signs at every store we wont serve if you don't wear a mask. Restaurants started to open up outdoors and they check your temperature and the wait staff takes a lot of percaussions.

Do you have some more information regarding that paycheck guarantee program from those other countries. Curious to know if that would be scalable for a country our size? But worth looking into and seeing who would qualify.

And yes both of us want the same thing. Our families to be safe while being financially stable. My young brother worked for a event planning company (yeah no bueno during COVID). Needless to say they all were asked to take 50% pay cuts because the company had zero cash flow and then as the country was still shut down they had basically laid off everyone. My brother was lucky to find a new job after a month but it was a tough time.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1273 » by j4remi » Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:40 am

mpharris36 wrote:
I completely understand where you are coming from.

I'm sure if in middle of march it was told if everyone just stays inside for 1 month and we will be over this then people would have done it. But what certainty would there be? You would literally have to bubble the entire country because COVID is still effecting other countries all it would take in theory is one positive person to fly into the country even if everyone was quarantining to stop the spread. It would be so challenging because of how many "silent" carries there have been for a virus that is so contagious.

The good thing I haven't seen one person without a mask out where I am from in CT. I have seen signs at every store we wont serve if you don't wear a mask. Restaurants started to open up outdoors and they check your temperature and the wait staff takes a lot of percaussions.

Do you have some more information regarding that paycheck guarantee program from those other countries. Curious to know if that would be scalable for a country our size? But worth looking into and seeing who would qualify.

And yes both of us want the same thing. Our families to be safe while being financially stable. My young brother worked for a event planning company (yeah no bueno during COVID). Needless to say they all were asked to take 50% pay cuts because the company had zero cash flow and then as the country was still shut down they had basically laid off everyone. My brother was lucky to find a new job after a month but it was a tough time.


This piece kinda summarizes the model and goes over a few examples of other countries trying it out. That ought to offer nice variation to compare outcomes and see what aspects of the models are the best to replicate.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-germany-kurzarbeit/germanys-short-time-work-fix-offers-europe-a-crisis-model-idUSKBN21Q1SY?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews

And this one is about a version proposed back in April. It alludes to how expensive it would likely be in the latter half, but the relief it would offer would be huge.

https://www.vox.com/2020/4/10/21215611/pramila-jayapal-paycheck-guarantee-act-denmark

On how much better I think COVID could have been handled early-on, while prevention is impossible, the goal is mitigation. This absolutely requires some limitations on travel, especially early on. But I think big steps toward limiting the damage and getting toward reopening faster would have been:

- A lot of testing. You don't necessarily have to lock everyone out if you have a robust amount of tests. The test rollout in this country was nothing short of a failure imo.

- Setting up some serious contact tracing. That way even though you can't prevent everyone getting sick; you can limit the amount that it spreads even with silent carriers.

- Locking down faster, moving on mask mandates faster and just generally moving more quickly with the data.

Because decisions about the virus were presented in a way that forced us to look at a binary choice between economy and health; the rights and wrongs about this stuff became politicized out the gate. Preventive measures that could have mitigated the damage became lines to fight over. But in retrospect, 190,000 lost lives and still subject to a prolonged lockdown, mass unemployment and rising evictions; I think playing it safe early would have both saved lives and improved economic outcomes. It would have been worth it.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1274 » by BallSacBounce » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:34 am

K-DOT wrote:
2010 wrote:I will never call mpharris a racist. I respect him and firmly believe he has no malice. He's just sort of like Dolan. His alliances be kinda shakey (Trump, republican'ts, police officers, etc.)

:lol:

I don't think he's racist either

I think there are a lot of Republicans who aren't racist and genuinely believe what the party is selling them

But you can't deny the objective reality that the modern Republican party was built to cater to racists, and that almost all racists will vote Republican.

Yeah uh, whatever and what not listening to you liberals spout nonsense is amusing to us. You really have no **** clue.

https://pjmedia.com/election/tyler-o-neil/2020/08/24/as-team-biden-celebrates-gop-defectors-richard-spencer-endorses-democrats-n832500

As Team Biden Celebrates GOP Defectors, Richard Spencer Endorses Democrats

As the Joe Biden campaign released a list of former Republicans who have endorsed the Democratic nominee for the November election, white nationalist Richard Spencer — an organizer of the Charlottesville riot and a former supporter of President Donald Trump — announced his support for Biden, as well. This endorsement is particularly embarrassing for Biden, since he claimed that he is running for president to “restore the soul of America,” specifically to repudiate Trump’s alleged support for the Charlottesville march.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1275 » by K-DOT » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:43 am

BallSacBounce wrote:
K-DOT wrote:
2010 wrote:I will never call mpharris a racist. I respect him and firmly believe he has no malice. He's just sort of like Dolan. His alliances be kinda shakey (Trump, republican'ts, police officers, etc.)

:lol:

I don't think he's racist either

I think there are a lot of Republicans who aren't racist and genuinely believe what the party is selling them

But you can't deny the objective reality that the modern Republican party was built to cater to racists, and that almost all racists will vote Republican.

Yeah uh, whatever and what not listening to you liberals spout nonsense is amusing to us. You really have no **** clue.

https://pjmedia.com/election/tyler-o-neil/2020/08/24/as-team-biden-celebrates-gop-defectors-richard-spencer-endorses-democrats-n832500

As Team Biden Celebrates GOP Defectors, Richard Spencer Endorses Democrats

As the Joe Biden campaign released a list of former Republicans who have endorsed the Democratic nominee for the November election, white nationalist Richard Spencer — an organizer of the Charlottesville riot and a former supporter of President Donald Trump — announced his support for Biden, as well. This endorsement is particularly embarrassing for Biden, since he claimed that he is running for president to “restore the soul of America,” specifically to repudiate Trump’s alleged support for the Charlottesville march.

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/white-supremacist-richard-spencer-didnt-endorse-joe-biden

In reality, Spencer and other white supremacists have a long history of purposely adopting their opponents’ causes and pretending to back them in order to undermine them. That’s exactly what Spencer did in 2018 by pretending to support “Zionism,” when he actually has a long history of hate towards both Israel and Jews, and claims that the Jewish state and its supporters control America.


The same test easily exposes Spencer’s endorsement of Biden as a sham. After all, Spencer has and continues to support Trump’s policies, from his stance on immigration to Black Lives Matter. Spencer even organized the very Unite the Right rally that Biden has repeatedly cited as his motivation for running against Trump in the first place. The racist’s “endorsement” of Biden, like his support for Zionism, is a costume he dons to deceive and disturb the gullible, who foolishly forget the white hood he wears the rest of the time.


And finally, from the Biden campaign itself:

Read on Twitter


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Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1276 » by mpharris36 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:20 am

j4remi wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
I completely understand where you are coming from.

I'm sure if in middle of march it was told if everyone just stays inside for 1 month and we will be over this then people would have done it. But what certainty would there be? You would literally have to bubble the entire country because COVID is still effecting other countries all it would take in theory is one positive person to fly into the country even if everyone was quarantining to stop the spread. It would be so challenging because of how many "silent" carries there have been for a virus that is so contagious.

The good thing I haven't seen one person without a mask out where I am from in CT. I have seen signs at every store we wont serve if you don't wear a mask. Restaurants started to open up outdoors and they check your temperature and the wait staff takes a lot of percaussions.

Do you have some more information regarding that paycheck guarantee program from those other countries. Curious to know if that would be scalable for a country our size? But worth looking into and seeing who would qualify.

And yes both of us want the same thing. Our families to be safe while being financially stable. My young brother worked for a event planning company (yeah no bueno during COVID). Needless to say they all were asked to take 50% pay cuts because the company had zero cash flow and then as the country was still shut down they had basically laid off everyone. My brother was lucky to find a new job after a month but it was a tough time.


This piece kinda summarizes the model and goes over a few examples of other countries trying it out. That ought to offer nice variation to compare outcomes and see what aspects of the models are the best to replicate.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-germany-kurzarbeit/germanys-short-time-work-fix-offers-europe-a-crisis-model-idUSKBN21Q1SY?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews

And this one is about a version proposed back in April. It alludes to how expensive it would likely be in the latter half, but the relief it would offer would be huge.

https://www.vox.com/2020/4/10/21215611/pramila-jayapal-paycheck-guarantee-act-denmark

On how much better I think COVID could have been handled early-on, while prevention is impossible, the goal is mitigation. This absolutely requires some limitations on travel, especially early on. But I think big steps toward limiting the damage and getting toward reopening faster would have been:

- A lot of testing. You don't necessarily have to lock everyone out if you have a robust amount of tests. The test rollout in this country was nothing short of a failure imo.

- Setting up some serious contact tracing. That way even though you can't prevent everyone getting sick; you can limit the amount that it spreads even with silent carriers.

- Locking down faster, moving on mask mandates faster and just generally moving more quickly with the data.

Because decisions about the virus were presented in a way that forced us to look at a binary choice between economy and health; the rights and wrongs about this stuff became politicized out the gate. Preventive measures that could have mitigated the damage became lines to fight over. But in retrospect, 190,000 lost lives and still subject to a prolonged lockdown, mass unemployment and rising evictions; I think playing it safe early would have both saved lives and improved economic outcomes. It would have been worth it.



That does seem like a pretty ambitious plan of about 2.5 Trillion in debt for just 13 weeks of coverage.

I think during the height of the pandemic when unemployment was nearly 15% reports were nearly half the people on unemployment were making more then what they would have been making working. I think avg unemployment check is around $370-$380 that last for about 26 weeks. On top of that during the pandemic people on unemployment were receiving a $600 extra payment on top of there normal unemployment check which Trump signed in March.

The United States is not known for its generosity to the unemployed. But the coronavirus crisis has transformed our system for compensating jobless workers. As tens of millions of workers suddenly became unemployed, Congress passed an expansive relief package with an unprecedented $600-per-week supplement for jobless workers. The goal was to replace their wages so they could survive the economic lockdown.


https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/many-americans-are-getting-more-money-from-unemployment-than-they-were-from-their-jobs/

https://www.wsj.com/articles/coronavirus-relief-often-pays-workers-more-than-work-11588066200

So I think the monetary response was pretty solid. The companies that could operate from home and pay there employees don't need bailouts (like mine for instance) consumer goods companies kinda thrived during the pandemic (people loading up on groceries and cooking and eating from home and loading up one food for themselves and pets).

But the really low end employed workers who lost there jobs actually got some decent relief during this tough time. For instance it almost got to a point where some workers didn't want to go back to work because they were being compensated more from the CARES act. My father in law runs a small appliance business. He has a few delivery guys he pays per hour to deliver products. When NY shut down his business and finally he was part of the reopening it was more beneficial for his few delivery guys to stay on unemployment because of the extra stimulas package from the COVID relief. So while he was back open needing to sell product it was difficult to find people willing to work even when some of the restrictions were being lifted.

Another quick note a second stimulas check may be in the cards soon. So lets see what comes of it. :dontknow:

Mask madates I can't really argue against. I agree. I follow my own personal mask mandate (I have a young son which I'm glad the VIRUS really doesn't effect young kids) but he is still in contact with his grand parents and I would never put them at risk so we are extra careful. And I haven't really noticed anyone around me not following that outside of the few crazy people you see on twitter (or stupid young kids at parties and sh*t).

The test rollouts was slow. I think as you stated this kind of came out of nowhere and no one really new if a completely healthy young person should be tested. My brother lived in NYC and around march he said he came down with a bit of a cold he thought (really healthy person runs like 4-5 miles a day). Had no idea so he self quarantined himself but he was told just to stay home because they needed tests for people that really could use it. I think after that initial surge we got the hold on the process a bit and I don't think its hard at all to find a test currently. Its just challenging becaues of that "silent" carrier which some people are just completely immune but could still pass it on which was challenging.

Hit me up via PM because I don't want to put someone business out for everyone but someone we know on the forum works a gov't job was to be part of contact tracing. Lets just say it was extremely difficult to trace as during the pandemic we were going through and still going through many racial issues about police brutality. I'm not suggesting people shouldn't be protesting. They have ever right to and I support that. But you can understand the difficulty of potentially contact tracing in those situations. He said it was a sh*t show because the people quarantining didn't need the contact tracing. It was the people out and about and even wearing a mask in large gatherings you just dont know.

Sorry for the long ramble and getting back to you so late. Enjoying the convo though.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1277 » by Are We Ther Yet » Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:45 am

HarthorneWingo wrote:
Are We Ther Yet wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:

I’m much better than CNN. Just stick with me and you’ll be fine.

Let me ask you this, why would the hospitals do this on their own? That actually makes less sense.


It is private prison doctors? I am not reading the article again. Nowhere does it mention Trump so....you are implying that it is his admin ordering this. Not that the article has anything to do with your accusation. That is my point.


If you can't draw your own inference based on Trump's own disparagement and treatment of immigrants, solely because the article doesn't discuss it, then I don't know what else to tell you. You don't have to believe me and I don't have to prove anything to you.


So...it is your opinion. Cool. That's all I was trying to figure out
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1278 » by HarthorneWingo » Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:48 am

K-DOT wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
K-DOT wrote:


:lol: Ever see this one?


I like this one



Of course. I remember sharing this in debates on the issue. The particular "bit" had a lot of social/political relevance around that time because of the many mass shootings we were experiencing here.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1279 » by HarthorneWingo » Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:53 am

Are We Ther Yet wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
Are We Ther Yet wrote:
It is private prison doctors? I am not reading the article again. Nowhere does it mention Trump so....you are implying that it is his admin ordering this. Not that the article has anything to do with your accusation. That is my point.


If you can't draw your own inference based on Trump's own disparagement and treatment of immigrants, solely because the article doesn't discuss it, then I don't know what else to tell you. You don't have to believe me and I don't have to prove anything to you.


So...it is your opinion. Cool. That's all I was trying to figure out


Now you've hurt my feeling. I hope you feel better about yourself at my expense. :cry:
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1280 » by Are We Ther Yet » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:01 am

HarthorneWingo wrote:
Are We Ther Yet wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
If you can't draw your own inference based on Trump's own disparagement and treatment of immigrants, solely because the article doesn't discuss it, then I don't know what else to tell you. You don't have to believe me and I don't have to prove anything to you.


So...it is your opinion. Cool. That's all I was trying to figure out


Now you've hurt my feeling. I hope you feel better about yourself at my expense. :cry:


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:beer: RIP mags

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