ImageImageImageImageImage

2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome)

Moderators: GONYK, K-DOT, Deeeez Knicks, Capn'O, Thugger HBC, j4remi, Jeff Van Gully, mrpoetryNmotion, mpharris36, NoLayupRule, King of Canada

Who are you voting for?

Donald Trump
28
29%
Joe Biden
58
59%
Howie Hawkins
4
4%
Jo Jorgensen
3
3%
Kanye West
5
5%
 
Total votes: 98

User avatar
mpharris36
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 70,462
And1: 43,405
Joined: Nov 03, 2010
     

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1241 » by mpharris36 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:15 pm

2010 wrote:I will never call mpharris a racist. I respect him and firmly believe he has no malice. He's just sort of like Dolan. His alliances be kinda shakey (Trump, republican'ts, police officers, etc.)

:lol:


just to clear up 2010 because I respect the hell out of you

No alliance to trump - I already said I think there are clear better candidates coming through the system.

No alliance to the republican party - I'm more a moderate that leans republican because libertarians don't win. As someone said you unfortunately are just wasting your vote if you voted for Gary Johnson in 2016. Its just the sucky way of our political system that you have to most of the time choose between the lesser of two evils. I also think we are seeing an influx in some new blood into the conservative party which is refreshing...at least to me.

As far as police officers my belief is assume every person is good until they prove otherwise. No matter who they are. Race, religion...ect. I plan on raising my son the same way. I don't think every officer is bad and I assume minorities also can't feel that way because most still want there presence in there communities. I am all for weeding out the bad ones mostly protected by **** local leaders and unions.

I know you respect this because we have talked about this before. My goal is to protect my family. My life is devoted to my wife and my son and try to give them the best life possible and raise him the right way. Some might consider that selfish, its just how I was raised. Family is the most important and will always be.
BAF Spurs:

ROSTER
1. Frank Ntilikina- $170/2 years
2. Michael Porter Jr.- $61/5 years
3. Terence Davis- $2/4 years
4. Chris Boucher- $1/3 years

9 lottery picks in the 2020 draft
User avatar
mpharris36
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 70,462
And1: 43,405
Joined: Nov 03, 2010
     

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1242 » by mpharris36 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:31 pm

K-DOT wrote:
2010 wrote:I will never call mpharris a racist. I respect him and firmly believe he has no malice. He's just sort of like Dolan. His alliances be kinda shakey (Trump, republican'ts, police officers, etc.)

:lol:

I don't think he's racist either

I think there are a lot of Republicans who aren't racist and genuinely believe what the party is selling them

But you can't deny the objective reality that the modern Republican party was built to cater to racists, and that almost all racists will vote Republican.


do you believe I'm out there at same sex marriages protesting because I vote conservative? :lol:

I'm religious but I am not one to oppose anyone's sexual orientation. I'm also not going to actual insult anyone if they believe they are a different gender. I believe the thought is the republican party in monolithic with its thoughts.

Just like the democratic one isn't monolithic. Within the party you have Sanders and AOC who are far different then other democrats. I assume you also dont blindly support every policy a democrat proposes (I know you are in school but I'm not sure if this will be your first time voting). But I simply don't agree with every policy but its hard to choose when we are only given two options. I think you would have a greater stance if there we 25 legit options to vote in and I chose trump. Its simply Trump vs Biden (or actually Harris) once Biden is potentially unfit for office. It's an a-hole vs someone without a backbone.

I believe in limited government involvement. Any gov't run organization is a sh*t show so why would I want them to be more involved in my life (hello DMV, hello roadways in my town, hello public utility companies). When you have a family to support and bills to pay, and a job to maintain in a privet sector maybe you might soften your stance but I don't fault you for your beliefs and you have the rights to them.

Also you don't have to worry my vote wont count since I live in CT :lol:
BAF Spurs:

ROSTER
1. Frank Ntilikina- $170/2 years
2. Michael Porter Jr.- $61/5 years
3. Terence Davis- $2/4 years
4. Chris Boucher- $1/3 years

9 lottery picks in the 2020 draft
User avatar
2010
Knicks Forum A Helluva Poster
Posts: 25,379
And1: 19,442
Joined: Jul 24, 2008
       

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1243 » by 2010 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:36 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
K-DOT wrote:
2010 wrote:I will never call mpharris a racist. I respect him and firmly believe he has no malice. He's just sort of like Dolan. His alliances be kinda shakey (Trump, republican'ts, police officers, etc.)

:lol:

I don't think he's racist either

I think there are a lot of Republicans who aren't racist and genuinely believe what the party is selling them

But you can't deny the objective reality that the modern Republican party was built to cater to racists, and that almost all racists will vote Republican.


do you believe I'm out there at same sex marriages protesting because I vote conservative? :lol:

I'm religious but I am not one to oppose anyone's sexual orientation. I'm also not going to actual insult anyone if they believe they are a different gender. I believe the thought is the republican party in monolithic with its thoughts.

Just like the democratic one isn't monolithic. Within the party you have Sanders and AOC who are far different then other democrats. I assume you also dont blindly support every policy a democrat proposes (I know you are in school but I'm not sure if this will be your first time voting). But I simply don't agree with every policy but its hard to choose when we are only given two options. I think you would have a greater stance if there we 25 legit options to vote in and I chose trump. Its simply Trump vs Biden (or actually Harris) once Biden is potentially unfit for office. It's an a-hole vs someone without a backbone.

I believe in limited government involvement. Any gov't run organization is a sh*t show so why would I want them to be more involved in my life. When you have a family to support and bills to pay, and a job to maintain in a privet sector maybe you might soften your stance but I don't fault you for your beliefs and you have the rights to them.

Also you don't have to worry my vote wont count since I live in CT :lol:


So basically, you too believe the system is broken and needs dismantling. Left wing, right wing...same damn bird.
Image Image

We The North...

1: James | Rose | Shamet
2: Redick | Kennard | Tucker
3: Harris | Hood | Mathews | Musa | Korver
4: Bagley | Portis | O'Neale | Ojeleye
5: Cousins | Len | Kornet
User avatar
mpharris36
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 70,462
And1: 43,405
Joined: Nov 03, 2010
     

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1244 » by mpharris36 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:42 pm

2010 wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
K-DOT wrote:I don't think he's racist either

I think there are a lot of Republicans who aren't racist and genuinely believe what the party is selling them

But you can't deny the objective reality that the modern Republican party was built to cater to racists, and that almost all racists will vote Republican.


do you believe I'm out there at same sex marriages protesting because I vote conservative? :lol:

I'm religious but I am not one to oppose anyone's sexual orientation. I'm also not going to actual insult anyone if they believe they are a different gender. I believe the thought is the republican party in monolithic with its thoughts.

Just like the democratic one isn't monolithic. Within the party you have Sanders and AOC who are far different then other democrats. I assume you also dont blindly support every policy a democrat proposes (I know you are in school but I'm not sure if this will be your first time voting). But I simply don't agree with every policy but its hard to choose when we are only given two options. I think you would have a greater stance if there we 25 legit options to vote in and I chose trump. Its simply Trump vs Biden (or actually Harris) once Biden is potentially unfit for office. It's an a-hole vs someone without a backbone.

I believe in limited government involvement. Any gov't run organization is a sh*t show so why would I want them to be more involved in my life. When you have a family to support and bills to pay, and a job to maintain in a privet sector maybe you might soften your stance but I don't fault you for your beliefs and you have the rights to them.

Also you don't have to worry my vote wont count since I live in CT :lol:


So basically, you too believe the system is broken and needs dismantling. Left wing, right wing...same damn bird.


YES BLOW IT THE F*CK UP

I would like to vote for the person that I actually believe is the best candidate. Think about this we are the greatest nation in the world and we are choosing between Trump and Biden? Think about that for a second?

I'm not saying Kanye is the best candidate so don't quote me on that. I'm just saying lets say he was the best candidate why couldn't he win just because he was independent. The parties are crap, people with agendas and money on both sides choose who they want to push there own agenda. I pay my taxes to protect me as a citizen and I choose to live in an area with higher taxes because its my choice to give my son the best education and the schools systems here are the best NY/CT area (and my family is still up this way as well :lol: ). But outside of that...let me live let me make my own decisions with my money and that is simply why I basically forced to vote one way over the other in our current system.

My guess is most conservatives aren't rocking a MAGA hat :lol: they just have to pick between the lesser of two evils for them.
BAF Spurs:

ROSTER
1. Frank Ntilikina- $170/2 years
2. Michael Porter Jr.- $61/5 years
3. Terence Davis- $2/4 years
4. Chris Boucher- $1/3 years

9 lottery picks in the 2020 draft
User avatar
K-DOT
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 13,121
And1: 18,250
Joined: Nov 25, 2016
         

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1245 » by K-DOT » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:52 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
K-DOT wrote:
2010 wrote:I will never call mpharris a racist. I respect him and firmly believe he has no malice. He's just sort of like Dolan. His alliances be kinda shakey (Trump, republican'ts, police officers, etc.)

:lol:

I don't think he's racist either

I think there are a lot of Republicans who aren't racist and genuinely believe what the party is selling them

But you can't deny the objective reality that the modern Republican party was built to cater to racists, and that almost all racists will vote Republican.


do you believe I'm out there at same sex marriages protesting because I vote conservative? :lol:

I'm religious but I am not one to oppose anyone's sexual orientation. I'm also not going to actual insult anyone if they believe they are a different gender. I believe the thought is the republican party in monolithic with its thoughts.

Just like the democratic one isn't monolithic. Within the party you have Sanders and AOC who are far different then other democrats. I assume you also dont blindly support every policy a democrat proposes (I know you are in school but I'm not sure if this will be your first time voting). But I simply don't agree with every policy but its hard to choose when we are only given two options. I think you would have a greater stance if there we 25 legit options to vote in and I chose trump. Its simply Trump vs Biden (or actually Harris) once Biden is potentially unfit for office. It's an a-hole vs someone without a backbone.

I believe in limited government involvement. Any gov't run organization is a sh*t show so why would I want them to be more involved in my life. When you have a family to support and bills to pay, and a job to maintain in a privet sector maybe you might soften your stance but I don't fault you for your beliefs and you have the rights to them.

Because the Republicans are pretty monolithic. You want them not to be because it would justify your "both sides" argument, but they all fall in line when they have to. The only time they go against Trump is when they're dying or retiring. If they're not, they get kicked out of the party anyways (see Justin Amash)

And while you're not personally against these things, you're fine with voting for people who are, and the same thing goes for racism. You say you're against racists, but you go to great lengths to ignore racism from people you agree with. Like how you deny the existence of the Southern Strategy despite it being an actual thing

Maybe when you're older and your children ask you why the planet is burning around them you'll soften your stance. Or you'll deny your involvement and say you personally didn't like that aspect of the Republican party but they made the rich people even richer, so it was worth it. You're welcome to your beliefs, and I'm welcome to point out they're terrible beliefs and you're pretty ignorant of a lot of things, some of which is intentional on your part which I just can't respect.
BAF Lakers:

Darius Garland/Carsen Edwards
Eric Gordon/Avery Bradley
Cam Johnson/Keldon Johnson
Obi Toppin/Darius Bazley
Goga Bitadze/Bol Bol

rip Josh Jackson's contract
User avatar
K-DOT
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 13,121
And1: 18,250
Joined: Nov 25, 2016
         

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1246 » by K-DOT » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:54 pm

How can you say you want to blow it all up but you vote for the most pro-establishment party?
BAF Lakers:

Darius Garland/Carsen Edwards
Eric Gordon/Avery Bradley
Cam Johnson/Keldon Johnson
Obi Toppin/Darius Bazley
Goga Bitadze/Bol Bol

rip Josh Jackson's contract
User avatar
HarthorneWingo
Knicks Forum Grandpa's Law
Posts: 62,069
And1: 28,320
Joined: May 16, 2005
   

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1247 » by HarthorneWingo » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:00 pm

Pointgod wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:Bernie hater, James Carville admits that Bernie's (and Wingo's) critique of Biden's campaign messages is correct. :nod:



Since when is Carville a Bernie hater? Favoring one candidate over the other does not make one a hater. He’s probably forgotten more political knowledge than both you and I combined know.


Since '16. Were you living on the planet Xenon for the past 4 years? :lol:

Carville is a political hack for the Clintons from way back. The mere fact that he would admit that Bernie is right about his criticisms of O'Biden's campaign means that the problem is much worse.

Image
User avatar
HarthorneWingo
Knicks Forum Grandpa's Law
Posts: 62,069
And1: 28,320
Joined: May 16, 2005
   

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1248 » by HarthorneWingo » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:03 pm

Are We Ther Yet wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
Are We Ther Yet wrote:
What are you CNN? NOWHERE is Trump mentioned in there. This is private jails. Are you suggesting this is being ordered by the Trump admin? What makes you say that? I hate when I have to play devil's advocate but your claim needs an explanation.



I’m much better than CNN. Just stick with me and you’ll be fine.

Let me ask you this, why would the hospitals do this on their own? That actually makes less sense.


It is private prison doctors? I am not reading the article again. Nowhere does it mention Trump so....you are implying that it is his admin ordering this. Not that the article has anything to do with your accusation. That is my point.


If you can't draw your own inference based on Trump's own disparagement and treatment of immigrants, solely because the article doesn't discuss it, then I don't know what else to tell you. You don't have to believe me and I don't have to prove anything to you.
Image
Oscirus
Head Coach
Posts: 7,385
And1: 4,116
Joined: Dec 09, 2011
       

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1249 » by Oscirus » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:06 pm

50 state Nixon didn't campaign in the south? Come on now, y'all know better than that.
User avatar
mpharris36
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 70,462
And1: 43,405
Joined: Nov 03, 2010
     

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1250 » by mpharris36 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:17 pm

K-DOT wrote:How can you say you want to blow it all up but you vote for the most pro-establishment party?


I have pointed that out many times unless a libertarian candidate can actually win its a wasted vote.

I don't want to blow up the values and beliefs of western civilization. But in terms of the way we vote and basically are forced to vote for one of two parties I don't agree there.

Look at it like healthcare I don't want someone to tell me what doctor I have to use I want to pick my own and pay for my own policy. You can use that same logic on how I feel about our elected officials. I don't want to be told which two pick from I would in theory like to the individual that closely aligns to my beliefs.
BAF Spurs:

ROSTER
1. Frank Ntilikina- $170/2 years
2. Michael Porter Jr.- $61/5 years
3. Terence Davis- $2/4 years
4. Chris Boucher- $1/3 years

9 lottery picks in the 2020 draft
Pointgod
General Manager
Posts: 9,965
And1: 9,674
Joined: Jun 28, 2014

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1251 » by Pointgod » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:26 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
2010 wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
do you believe I'm out there at same sex marriages protesting because I vote conservative? :lol:

I'm religious but I am not one to oppose anyone's sexual orientation. I'm also not going to actual insult anyone if they believe they are a different gender. I believe the thought is the republican party in monolithic with its thoughts.

Just like the democratic one isn't monolithic. Within the party you have Sanders and AOC who are far different then other democrats. I assume you also dont blindly support every policy a democrat proposes (I know you are in school but I'm not sure if this will be your first time voting). But I simply don't agree with every policy but its hard to choose when we are only given two options. I think you would have a greater stance if there we 25 legit options to vote in and I chose trump. Its simply Trump vs Biden (or actually Harris) once Biden is potentially unfit for office. It's an a-hole vs someone without a backbone.

I believe in limited government involvement. Any gov't run organization is a sh*t show so why would I want them to be more involved in my life. When you have a family to support and bills to pay, and a job to maintain in a privet sector maybe you might soften your stance but I don't fault you for your beliefs and you have the rights to them.

Also you don't have to worry my vote wont count since I live in CT :lol:


So basically, you too believe the system is broken and needs dismantling. Left wing, right wing...same damn bird.


YES BLOW IT THE F*CK UP

I would like to vote for the person that I actually believe is the best candidate. Think about this we are the greatest nation in the world and we are choosing between Trump and Biden? Think about that for a second?

I'm not saying Kanye is the best candidate so don't quote me on that. I'm just saying lets say he was the best candidate why couldn't he win just because he was independent. The parties are crap, people with agendas and money on both sides choose who they want to push there own agenda. I pay my taxes to protect me as a citizen and I choose to live in an area with higher taxes because its my choice to give my son the best education and the schools systems here are the best NY/CT area (and my family is still up this way as well :lol: ). But outside of that...let me live let me make my own decisions with my money and that is simply why I basically forced to vote one way over the other in our current system.

My guess is most conservatives aren't rocking a MAGA hat :lol: they just have to pick between the lesser of two evils for them.


Serious question. You say you want to blow it up, but do you ever consider the consequences to people who want the same thing as you, to protect their family and livelihood, that the government does a lot of good things for? You’re seeing the results of the chaos that comes with blowing it up. 200000 people dead because of a pandemic, this is just one example of where you would want the government to intervene. Trump’s coronavirus response is a good example of what less government gets you. Now imagine the chaos of every single mayor and hospital was left to fend for themselves.

I see you’ve fallen into the both parties are crap propaganda. Well you can look it up. Which party is proposing campaign Finance reform? The only way that a multi party system works is if you get rid of the Electoral college and switch to proportional voting. Otherwise the two parties will always cancel each other out and the one will win with a minority of the votes. You may not like the choices but millions of other people exercised their votes in the primary to pick Biden and Trump. That’s how Democracy works. And at the end of the day there’s a clear choice between the two regarding who’s the better choice. It’s not a choice between lesser of two evils, you’re making a choice for the greater good. Just because you don’t like how the system works doesn’t mean you choose actual evil.
User avatar
mpharris36
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 70,462
And1: 43,405
Joined: Nov 03, 2010
     

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1252 » by mpharris36 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:26 pm

K-DOT wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
K-DOT wrote:I don't think he's racist either

I think there are a lot of Republicans who aren't racist and genuinely believe what the party is selling them

But you can't deny the objective reality that the modern Republican party was built to cater to racists, and that almost all racists will vote Republican.


do you believe I'm out there at same sex marriages protesting because I vote conservative? :lol:

I'm religious but I am not one to oppose anyone's sexual orientation. I'm also not going to actual insult anyone if they believe they are a different gender. I believe the thought is the republican party in monolithic with its thoughts.

Just like the democratic one isn't monolithic. Within the party you have Sanders and AOC who are far different then other democrats. I assume you also dont blindly support every policy a democrat proposes (I know you are in school but I'm not sure if this will be your first time voting). But I simply don't agree with every policy but its hard to choose when we are only given two options. I think you would have a greater stance if there we 25 legit options to vote in and I chose trump. Its simply Trump vs Biden (or actually Harris) once Biden is potentially unfit for office. It's an a-hole vs someone without a backbone.

I believe in limited government involvement. Any gov't run organization is a sh*t show so why would I want them to be more involved in my life. When you have a family to support and bills to pay, and a job to maintain in a privet sector maybe you might soften your stance but I don't fault you for your beliefs and you have the rights to them.

Because the Republicans are pretty monolithic. You want them not to be because it would justify your "both sides" argument, but they all fall in line when they have to. The only time they go against Trump is when they're dying or retiring. If they're not, they get kicked out of the party anyways (see Justin Amash)

And while you're not personally against these things, you're fine with voting for people who are, and the same thing goes for racism. You say you're against racists, but you go to great lengths to ignore racism from people you agree with. Like how you deny the existence of the Southern Strategy despite it being an actual thing

Maybe when you're older and your children ask you why the planet is burning around them you'll soften your stance. Or you'll deny your involvement and say you personally didn't like that aspect of the Republican party but they made the rich people even richer, so it was worth it. You're welcome to your beliefs, and I'm welcome to point out they're terrible beliefs and you're pretty ignorant of a lot of things, some of which is intentional on your part which I just can't respect.


Fair enough. I would then say please don't respond in the future on political threads to my posts. If your going to do the exact opposite of what this thread was suppose to do and bring together different ideas and be tolerance you are proving the exact opposite. I have not once insulted you but every chance you have gotten you have done the exact opposite.
BAF Spurs:

ROSTER
1. Frank Ntilikina- $170/2 years
2. Michael Porter Jr.- $61/5 years
3. Terence Davis- $2/4 years
4. Chris Boucher- $1/3 years

9 lottery picks in the 2020 draft
User avatar
thebuzzardman
RealGM
Posts: 39,432
And1: 31,307
Joined: Jun 24, 2006
Location: IGNOMANIA

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1253 » by thebuzzardman » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:27 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
K-DOT wrote:How can you say you want to blow it all up but you vote for the most pro-establishment party?


I have pointed that out many times unless a libertarian candidate can actually win its a wasted vote.

I don't want to blow up the values and beliefs of western civilization. But in terms of the way we vote and basically are forced to vote for one of two parties I don't agree there.

Look at it like healthcare I don't want someone to tell me what doctor I have to use I want to pick my own and pay for my own policy. You can use that same logic on how I feel about our elected officials. I don't want to be told which two pick from I would in theory like to the individual that closely aligns to my beliefs.


I used to be a libertarian until I read all the literature and realized it's just a right wing Austrian economic bullsh*t cover to make conservatives feel intellectually fancy.

Oh, with a dose of "leave me alone and let me do drugs and hookers and whatever"

Which is fine - sort of like a pie in the sky yearning for the real freedom that America has always talked about but never really delivered. Which is noble.
The economics of it is plate full of steaming turds.
Pointgod
General Manager
Posts: 9,965
And1: 9,674
Joined: Jun 28, 2014

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1254 » by Pointgod » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:27 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
K-DOT wrote:How can you say you want to blow it all up but you vote for the most pro-establishment party?


I have pointed that out many times unless a libertarian candidate can actually win its a wasted vote.

I don't want to blow up the values and beliefs of western civilization. But in terms of the way we vote and basically are forced to vote for one of two parties I don't agree there.

Look at it like healthcare I don't want someone to tell me what doctor I have to use I want to pick my own and pay for my own policy. You can use that same logic on how I feel about our elected officials. I don't want to be told which two pick from I would in theory like to the individual that closely aligns to my beliefs.


It sounds like you’d be in favor a single payer system.
Pointgod
General Manager
Posts: 9,965
And1: 9,674
Joined: Jun 28, 2014

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1255 » by Pointgod » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:30 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
Pointgod wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:Bernie hater, James Carville admits that Bernie's (and Wingo's) critique of Biden's campaign messages is correct. :nod:



Since when is Carville a Bernie hater? Favoring one candidate over the other does not make one a hater. He’s probably forgotten more political knowledge than both you and I combined know.


Since '16. Were you living on the planet Xenon for the past 4 years? :lol:

Carville is a political hack for the Clintons from way back. The mere fact that he would admit that Bernie is right about his criticisms of O'Biden's campaign means that the problem is much worse.


Pointing out Bernie’s faults as a candidate does not make him a hater. I mean could you imagine how Bernie would be polling in Florida right now if he was the nominee?
User avatar
K-DOT
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 13,121
And1: 18,250
Joined: Nov 25, 2016
         

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1256 » by K-DOT » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:31 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
K-DOT wrote:How can you say you want to blow it all up but you vote for the most pro-establishment party?


I have pointed that out many times unless a libertarian candidate can actually win its a wasted vote.

I don't want to blow up the values and beliefs of western civilization. But in terms of the way we vote and basically are forced to vote for one of two parties I don't agree there.

Look at it like healthcare I don't want someone to tell me what doctor I have to use I want to pick my own and pay for my own policy. You can use that same logic on how I feel about our elected officials. I don't want to be told which two pick from I would in theory like to the individual that closely aligns to my beliefs.

There are no libertarians in America

Just closet Republicans

Your belief system is inherently contradictory because it's a lie been sold to you by the establishment, specifically establishment Republicans. For a lot of Americans, there's no choice in healthcare, not really. It's superficial at best, and by having our system be the way it is, we're consistently shooting ourselves in the foot. The issue is, one of the choices is no healthcare, except it's not a choice it's something the system forces on people. But because you get to choose, you think it's all fine and dandy because the system isn't forcing it on you

How many countries went from socialized healthcare to privatized? I can't think of any. We're so far behind the rest of the world in that aspect, yet you tout it as a positive. Again, facts don't care about your feelings.
BAF Lakers:

Darius Garland/Carsen Edwards
Eric Gordon/Avery Bradley
Cam Johnson/Keldon Johnson
Obi Toppin/Darius Bazley
Goga Bitadze/Bol Bol

rip Josh Jackson's contract
User avatar
j4remi
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 34,689
And1: 13,116
Joined: Jun 23, 2008
         

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1257 » by j4remi » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:32 pm

mpharris36 wrote:To be fair Europe was working with the US in terms of sharing information and data. You can understand being skeptical of a country where the virus started yet they weren't forthright with any information, no?

Also a question, are we judging covid response by death or death rate? Just trying to be on the same page because if the argument is 196k deaths. While states like TX and FL were destroyed for there covid responses and Cuomo asking for praise for his response the death rates aren't even comparable to a state like NY and NJ.


I'd like to jump onto this last question, but quick disclaimer that I just clicked on the last page after a busy afternoon and I may have missed a bunch of context. So my bad if I miss a bit.

Anyway just to qualify my take here:
- I seriously loath Cuomo dating back to when he broke up a corruption probe for getting too close to his cronies. Also I'm mostly indifferent to Murphy...better than Christie but that's a low bar.
- I work at a medical library. Not claiming expertise, but my job entails looking at what the community is using and citing for research so that I can make sure my library has everything available.
- And the refrigerated truck images and long lines for COVID tests both included images from right outside my job. This hit close to home in a very literal sense.

Anyway, all of that to say...I thought Cuomo's and Murphy's responses were bad but if we're talking about relative comparisons; these guys got screwed. There was hardly any data about what treatments worked; resource limitations were at their worst; and while the scientific data was rapidly being produced, NY and NJ were hit before much of anything that we could consider actually conclusive had been reached.

It's important to remember that the science was and is still evolving. As we compile more data conclusions either become more clearly correct or in need of corrections. This is true on how we look at effective treatments, mitigation procedures and even resource preparation. Most importantly, basically all of the research I saw from the Feb.-April period was freely available and almost entirely about COVID. The Cancer research center at Columbia was holding weekly symposiums to update everybody on how their prior research might inform handling of COVID; a big donation allowed an HIV researcher to start an RNA lab focused on coronviruses research if I'm not mistaken too (it's been a while).

So I mention that last bit because the information was coming in rapidly. A scientific conclusion might get reviewed, called out, retested and then retracted over a chunk of time normally. But here we were seeing advice given to the best knowledge available and then very quickly being adjusted because a TON of data was compiling rapidly. Sometimes the data conflicted or there wasn't enough to go off of so the advice was either limited or paired with rhetoric that meant it was subject to change (an aside: honestly you see this rhetoric everywhere in scientific publishing; there are headlines about proof of life on Venus but if you look at the paper it makes it clear that they haven't reached that conclusion, just eliminated essentially all of the other reasonable expectations they could test for). What's important here is that, this explains why the suggestions shifted in some circumstances.

An easy example on that is the masks debate. That was legitimately up for discussion early on but pretty quickly we saw the efficacy of masks in the data and the CDC changed advice. This wasn't some conspiracy, their logic was explained when they made the first ruling and then when they made the adjustment. The problem is people locked in to the first decision and ignored the fact that new data had come out in droves which created a consensus. It's not a debate any more, hasn't been for a very long time and honestly I think it only ever was because of the resource limitations early on (educating people on proper mask wearing was also mentioned but it was never an immovable obstacle).

Okay so that's a LOT of writing, I'll try to keep this part brief. What separates Cuomo and Murphy from governors like DeSantis is that they followed scientific consensus. The mistakes they made early on should have informed adjustments to the approach, but DeSantis and some others pointed to those mistakes as a reason to ignore better informed conclusions and advice. Measuring death rates or deaths would ignore that crucial context. Cuomo and Murphy were late, could have saved lives by practicing caution sooner, but corrected course and their decisions mitigated the long term damage. DeSantis had enough time and warning to make adjustments that mitigated the damage before things escalated but he ignored the warning signs and consensus. That sort of logic essentially tracks like this; the later a governor's state was hit the better they're SUPPOSED to do on measures like deaths and death rates. They have better data, preparation and medical advice to work with.

Last bit I promise...Cuomo and Murphy get more credit than I think they deserve, but the context which makes us laud how they performed is that the information handicap they faced informs their mistakes rather than just plain ignoring what the experts were saying. When they realized things were bad, they followed science (still late but they did get blindsided in a sense). Places like TX and FL saw how bad things could get via NY/NJ/Cali and still decided to go with the economy over caution approach, so their failures end up being more about ignoring the experts than a lack of valuable data.
PG - Morris/Caruso
SG - Booker/B Brown/Z.Smith
SF - Culver/Hood/S Brown
PF - Gallo/ Patterson/Niang
C - Gobert/Gafford/Hartenstein



Ex A. Kaba

Finally a Recaps Stash:
https://medium.com/@j4remi
User avatar
HarthorneWingo
Knicks Forum Grandpa's Law
Posts: 62,069
And1: 28,320
Joined: May 16, 2005
   

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1258 » by HarthorneWingo » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:35 pm

Pointgod wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
Pointgod wrote:
Since when is Carville a Bernie hater? Favoring one candidate over the other does not make one a hater. He’s probably forgotten more political knowledge than both you and I combined know.


Since '16. Were you living on the planet Xenon for the past 4 years? :lol:

Carville is a political hack for the Clintons from way back. The mere fact that he would admit that Bernie is right about his criticisms of O'Biden's campaign means that the problem is much worse.


Pointing out Bernie’s faults as a candidate does not make him a hater. I mean could you imagine how Bernie would be polling in Florida right now if he was the nominee?


Bernie's policies/programs are polling great nationwide. Go down the list, M4A, GND, criminal justice reform/marijuana legalization, etc. Maybe if the DNC ran a clean and fair primary, we'd have President Sanders in office instead of Trump?

Carville called Bernie a "Communist" and made other personal attacks. Maybe you do a little research before you pontificate. Just like you failed to do with your "Susan Rice for VP" nonsense.
Image
User avatar
K-DOT
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 13,121
And1: 18,250
Joined: Nov 25, 2016
         

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1259 » by K-DOT » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:36 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
K-DOT wrote:How can you say you want to blow it all up but you vote for the most pro-establishment party?


I have pointed that out many times unless a libertarian candidate can actually win its a wasted vote.

I don't want to blow up the values and beliefs of western civilization. But in terms of the way we vote and basically are forced to vote for one of two parties I don't agree there.

Look at it like healthcare I don't want someone to tell me what doctor I have to use I want to pick my own and pay for my own policy. You can use that same logic on how I feel about our elected officials. I don't want to be told which two pick from I would in theory like to the individual that closely aligns to my beliefs.


I used to be a libertarian until I read all the literature and realized it's just a right wing Austrian economic bullsh*t cover to make conservatives feel intellectually fancy.

Oh, with a dose of "leave me alone and let me do drugs and hookers and whatever"

Which is fine - sort of like a pie in the sky yearning for the real freedom that America has always talked about but never really delivered. Which is noble.
The economics of it is plate full of steaming turds.

Libertarian Paradise
Spoiler:
I was shooting heroin and reading “The Fountainhead” in the front seat of my privately owned police cruiser when a call came in. I put a quarter in the radio to activate it. It was the chief.

“Bad news, detective. We got a situation.”

“What? Is the mayor trying to ban trans fats again?”

“Worse. Somebody just stole four hundred and forty-seven million dollars’ worth of bitcoins.”

The heroin needle practically fell out of my arm. “What kind of monster would do something like that? Bitcoins are the ultimate currency: virtual, anonymous, stateless. They represent true economic freedom, not subject to arbitrary manipulation by any government. Do we have any leads?”

“Not yet. But mark my words: we’re going to figure out who did this and we’re going to take them down … provided someone pays us a fair market rate to do so.”

“Easy, chief,” I said. “Any rate the market offers is, by definition, fair.”

He laughed. “That’s why you’re the best I got, Lisowski. Now you get out there and find those bitcoins.”

“Don’t worry,” I said. “I’m on it.”

I put a quarter in the siren. Ten minutes later, I was on the scene. It was a normal office building, strangled on all sides by public sidewalks. I hopped over them and went inside.

“Home Depot™ Presents the Police!®” I said, flashing my badge and my gun and a small picture of Ron Paul. “Nobody move unless you want to!” They didn’t.

“Now, which one of you punks is going to pay me to investigate this crime?” No one spoke up.

“Come on,” I said. “Don’t you all understand that the protection of private property is the foundation of all personal liberty?”

It didn’t seem like they did.

“Seriously, guys. Without a strong economic motivator, I’m just going to stand here and not solve this case. Cash is fine, but I prefer being paid in gold bullion or autographed Penn Jillette posters.”

Nothing. These people were stonewalling me. It almost seemed like they didn’t care that a fortune in computer money invented to buy drugs was missing.

I figured I could wait them out. I lit several cigarettes indoors. A pregnant lady coughed, and I told her that secondhand smoke is a myth. Just then, a man in glasses made a break for it.

“Subway™ Eat Fresh and Freeze, Scumbag!®” I yelled.

Too late. He was already out the front door. I went after him.

“Stop right there!” I yelled as I ran. He was faster than me because I always try to avoid stepping on public sidewalks. Our country needs a private-sidewalk voucher system, but, thanks to the incestuous interplay between our corrupt federal government and the public-sidewalk lobby, it will never happen.

I was losing him. “Listen, I’ll pay you to stop!” I yelled. “What would you consider an appropriate price point for stopping? I’ll offer you a thirteenth of an ounce of gold and a gently worn ‘Bob Barr ‘08’ extra-large long-sleeved men’s T-shirt!”

He turned. In his hand was a revolver that the Constitution said he had every right to own. He fired at me and missed. I pulled my own gun, put a quarter in it, and fired back. The bullet lodged in a U.S.P.S. mailbox less than a foot from his head. I shot the mailbox again, on purpose.

“All right, all right!” the man yelled, throwing down his weapon. “I give up, cop! I confess: I took the bitcoins.”

“Why’d you do it?” I asked, as I slapped a pair of Oikos™ Greek Yogurt Presents Handcuffs® on the guy.

“Because I was afraid.”

“Afraid?”

“Afraid of an economic future free from the pernicious meddling of central bankers,” he said. “I’m a central banker.”

I wanted to coldcock the guy. Years ago, a central banker killed my partner. Instead, I shook my head.

“Let this be a message to all your central-banker friends out on the street,” I said. “No matter how many bitcoins you steal, you’ll never take away the dream of an open society based on the principles of personal and economic freedom.”

He nodded, because he knew I was right. Then he swiped his credit card to pay me for arresting him.


“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."


Or like, play Bioshock. I haven't played the originals, but I've seen people play them, and I played Infinite. Great critiques of libertarainism.
BAF Lakers:

Darius Garland/Carsen Edwards
Eric Gordon/Avery Bradley
Cam Johnson/Keldon Johnson
Obi Toppin/Darius Bazley
Goga Bitadze/Bol Bol

rip Josh Jackson's contract
User avatar
2010
Knicks Forum A Helluva Poster
Posts: 25,379
And1: 19,442
Joined: Jul 24, 2008
       

Re: 2020 Presidential Election (All Serious POVs Welcome) 

Post#1260 » by 2010 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:38 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
K-DOT wrote:How can you say you want to blow it all up but you vote for the most pro-establishment party?


I have pointed that out many times unless a libertarian candidate can actually win its a wasted vote.

I don't want to blow up the values and beliefs of western civilization. But in terms of the way we vote and basically are forced to vote for one of two parties I don't agree there.

Look at it like healthcare I don't want someone to tell me what doctor I have to use I want to pick my own and pay for my own policy. You can use that same logic on how I feel about our elected officials. I don't want to be told which two pick from I would in theory like to the individual that closely aligns to my beliefs.


Some of those same values and beliefs of western civilization are a direct affront to the mere existence of some of us. Which is why I am of the idealist mindset of just hoping this whole system crumbles. No more amendments. We need to rip up the paper at some point and rewrite it with the benefits of ALL in mind.
Image Image

We The North...

1: James | Rose | Shamet
2: Redick | Kennard | Tucker
3: Harris | Hood | Mathews | Musa | Korver
4: Bagley | Portis | O'Neale | Ojeleye
5: Cousins | Len | Kornet

Return to New York Knicks