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Mitchell Robinson - Rim runners and the playoffs.

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Re: Mitchell Robinson - Rim runners and the playoffs. 

Post#181 » by Phish Tank » Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:12 pm

moocow007 wrote:I was one of maybe two or three people tops on this board that actually mentioned Robinson as someone to look at leading up to the 2018 draft. Funny now there's all these guys that always knew he was this good and that you could tell from his HS play. Where we you guys back then?

Also funny that folks are holding Wisemans decision to leave Memphis against him as a significant questionable decision making when Mitch Robinson did pretty much the same thing (actually worse).

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Mitch's was worse, though from what I read he might have gotten tangled into the Andy Miller Fed case (the same Andy Miller that was KP's agent till the Feds came after him).

Mitch was given some bad advice by people in his family, not sure if it was his father or godfather Shammond Williams or anyone on his mom's side. He followed Shammond Williams from Texas A&M to Western Kentucky and then out of college for good because Shammond quit (due to the Fed case)

Mitch should have gone to a Div 1 school and been a one and done.

Wiseman was different because of the Penny Hardaway situation.
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Re: Mitchell Robinson - Rim runners and the playoffs. 

Post#182 » by Capn'O » Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:18 pm

moocow007 wrote:I was one of maybe two or three people tops on this board that actually mentioned Robinson as someone to look at leading up to the 2018 draft. Funny now there's all these guys that always knew he was this good and that you could tell from his HS play. Where we you guys back then?

Also funny that folks are holding Wisemans decision to leave Memphis against him as a significant questionable decision making when Mitch Robinson did pretty much the same thing (actually worse).

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Context though. I didn't like him at 9. I'd have taken him three times and four on Sundays over Knox. 36 was AMAZING value. I gasped like a schoolgirl when we picked him there. I planned on taking him in the teens in BAF but then had the opportunity to move up and draft SGA. I'm ok with that.

Agreed though that Wiseman's NCAA issues are... non-issues. Also, **** the NCAA.
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Re: Mitchell Robinson - Rim runners and the playoffs. 

Post#183 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:30 pm

Capn'O wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
NYKnickerbocker wrote:I remember reading someone try and downplay the fact that he broke the FG record lol. Like why hasn’t anyone done it since wilt then? Been a bunch of guys who just dunk the ball since. Mitch just that good without a real point and horrible spacing



Because it's a meaningless record, especially when you take into account he was doing it against 2nd units. Just to show how ridiculous FG% records are, here's the top 10 for career FG% in NBA/ABA history.

1. DeAndre Jordan - Perennial playoffs until he got bad on defense
2. Rudy Gobert - Perennial playoffs
3. Tyson Chandler - Champion
4. Steven Adams - Perennial playoffs with a finals appearance
5. Dwight Howard - Perennial playoffs with a finals appearance
6. Hassan Whiteside - Sucks
7. Shaq - Champion and also **** Shaq
8. Artis Gilmore - Amazing hair
9. Mark West - Suuuuuper limited
10. Javale McGee - Champion

Notice a theme here? It's almost all rim runners who were drafted within the last 20 years :lol: The defensive rim roller who can't do anything without being set up is a fairly new player type that came about because of how many teams run PnR now, centers used to be able to do more than just catch a ball and dunk it or get set up for a lob.

DeAndre Jordan came close to Wilt's record several times, rim rollers shoot well from the field.


The guys you listed are almost all significant contributors on good to great teams. Those that aren't either have severe flaws in their game (Whiteside) or weren't that good to begin with (West). Not really including Gilmore as that was 100 years ago.

How again is having a rim running big who can defend at the rim and in space and has potential for offensive expansion a bad thing :lol:

If your point is that if Mitch is our best player we're in bad shape then... yes, if Mitch is our best player we're in bad shape. But if your point is that he's just another Javale McGee, he's already posted numbers that are better across the board than McGee ever posted.



Shaq isn't a rim runner, and Steven Adams never went to the finals, the only rim runner that was an integral part of a championship team was Tyson Chandler and that was almost a decade ago, since then the game has changed and hasn't been favorable to rim runners on big contracts.

You paint the guys as perennial playoff members, when the reality is they are a big reason why their teams couldn't get over the hump in the playoffs. My point has never been about making the playoffs, I want the Knicks to build a championship team, and chances are you're not doing that with a rim runner as a "core" member of your franchise.
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Re: Mitchell Robinson - Rim runners and the playoffs. 

Post#184 » by Capn'O » Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:50 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Capn'O wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:

Because it's a meaningless record, especially when you take into account he was doing it against 2nd units. Just to show how ridiculous FG% records are, here's the top 10 for career FG% in NBA/ABA history.

1. DeAndre Jordan - Perennial playoffs until he got bad on defense
2. Rudy Gobert - Perennial playoffs
3. Tyson Chandler - Champion
4. Steven Adams - Perennial playoffs with a finals appearance
5. Dwight Howard - Perennial playoffs with a finals appearance
6. Hassan Whiteside - Sucks
7. Shaq - Champion and also **** Shaq
8. Artis Gilmore - Amazing hair
9. Mark West - Suuuuuper limited
10. Javale McGee - Champion

Notice a theme here? It's almost all rim runners who were drafted within the last 20 years :lol: The defensive rim roller who can't do anything without being set up is a fairly new player type that came about because of how many teams run PnR now, centers used to be able to do more than just catch a ball and dunk it or get set up for a lob.

DeAndre Jordan came close to Wilt's record several times, rim rollers shoot well from the field.


The guys you listed are almost all significant contributors on good to great teams. Those that aren't either have severe flaws in their game (Whiteside) or weren't that good to begin with (West). Not really including Gilmore as that was 100 years ago.

How again is having a rim running big who can defend at the rim and in space and has potential for offensive expansion a bad thing :lol:

If your point is that if Mitch is our best player we're in bad shape then... yes, if Mitch is our best player we're in bad shape. But if your point is that he's just another Javale McGee, he's already posted numbers that are better across the board than McGee ever posted.



Shaq isn't a rim runner, and Steven Adams never went to the finals, the only rim runner that was an integral part of a championship team was Tyson Chandler and that was almost a decade ago, since then the game has changed and hasn't been favorable to rim runners on big contracts.

You paint the guys as perennial playoff members, when the reality is they are a big reason why their teams couldn't get over the hump in the playoffs. My point has never been about making the playoffs, I want the Knicks to build a championship team, and chances are you're not doing that with a rim runner as a "core" member of your franchise.


You're really reaching on narrative here. Let's take Gobert. Terrible series. Liability on the court in the playoffs. Jazz would be better without him. Right?

Orrrr you could look at what actually happened. A game or play sequence here or there where Gobert was successfully gameplanned for does not define his career or even series. The guy averaged 17/11.5 and was a +26 over the course of the series going up against Jokic. He's not the reason the Jazz lost. If he were a better offensive player would they have won? Probably. But he brought substantial value to the Jazz. Replacing him with a different player, let's say Khris Middleton or Paul George, between the top 15-20 players in the league MIGHT get them past the Nuggets but does not get them past the Lakers regardless of position. Would that be an indictment on shooting wings or is Khris Middleton just not quite as good as LeBron?

Now, how does this relate to Mitch? Well... when Gobert was Mitch's age? He could barely get on the court. It wasn't until the next year that he did anything. And when he did, he still produced less than Mitch. If the Jazz were to put Gobert on the market right now the return would be MUCH bigger than the difference between the 8th and 2nd pick in this **** draft. That kind of asset should, at the very least, be held until the Knicks can leverage it for a top player in the league. Not dismissed now because he probably can't become a top-2 player on a champion. What even is that?
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Re: Mitchell Robinson - Rim runners and the playoffs. 

Post#185 » by FutureKnicksGM » Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:55 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
FutureKnicksGM wrote:The appeal of Mitch is that he can guard smalls on the perimeter with his insane physical tools for his size, so is playable defensively against teams that go small.

Mia just won another game in the finals with Bam playing, not spacing the floor (and also blowing multiple shots at the rim that Mitch would finish easily).



The Heat run offense through Bam, he is their secondary playmaker right now to Butler, trying to paint he and Mitch as the same type of player is just wrong :lol:

He was 2nd on the Heat in APG this season, he's made 100+ jumpers this year as well, he and Mitch are comparable in the same way a Camaro and a Bugatti are, they're both cars, they both go fast...but there's a very clear difference.


Yes Mitch is no Adebayo in term of playmaking, but he doesn’t need to be. The point is you don’t need 5 shooters and playmakers on the floor, especially if Mitch can help in other areas. I can see Mitch gaining a short jumper to keep the D honest.
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Re: Mitchell Robinson - Rim runners and the playoffs. 

Post#186 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:22 pm

Capn'O wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Capn'O wrote:
The guys you listed are almost all significant contributors on good to great teams. Those that aren't either have severe flaws in their game (Whiteside) or weren't that good to begin with (West). Not really including Gilmore as that was 100 years ago.

How again is having a rim running big who can defend at the rim and in space and has potential for offensive expansion a bad thing :lol:

If your point is that if Mitch is our best player we're in bad shape then... yes, if Mitch is our best player we're in bad shape. But if your point is that he's just another Javale McGee, he's already posted numbers that are better across the board than McGee ever posted.



Shaq isn't a rim runner, and Steven Adams never went to the finals, the only rim runner that was an integral part of a championship team was Tyson Chandler and that was almost a decade ago, since then the game has changed and hasn't been favorable to rim runners on big contracts.

You paint the guys as perennial playoff members, when the reality is they are a big reason why their teams couldn't get over the hump in the playoffs. My point has never been about making the playoffs, I want the Knicks to build a championship team, and chances are you're not doing that with a rim runner as a "core" member of your franchise.


You're really reaching on narrative here. Let's take Gobert. Terrible series. Liability on the court in the playoffs. Jazz would be better without him. Right?

Orrrr you could look at what actually happened, the guy averaged 17/11.5 and was a +26 over the course of the series going up against Jokic. He's not the reason the Jazz lost. If he were a better offensive player would they have won? Probably. But he brought substantial value to the Jazz. Replacing him with a different player, let's say Khris Middleton or Paul George, between the top 15-20 players in the league MIGHT get them past the Nuggets but does not get the Jazz past the Lakers regardless of position. A game here or there where he was successfully gameplanned for does not define his career or even series. If the Jazz were to put Gobert on the market right now the return would be MUCH bigger than the difference between the 8th and 2nd pick in this **** draft.

Now, how does this relate to Mitch? Well... when Gobert was Mitch's age? He could barely get on the court. It wasn't until the next year that he did anything. And when he did, he still produced less than Mitch.

That kind of asset should, at the very least, be held until the Knicks can leverage it for a top player in the league. Not dismissed now because he can't be a top-2 player on a champion. What even is that?



He's there for defense, he gave up 26ppg to the guy he was guarding and the Nuggets had a 120 ORTG. He is the 2nd highest paid player on the Jazz, with that contract comes more blame and excuses for his failures fail on deaf ears. Just for reference, Steven Adams is also the 2nd highest paid player on the Jazz, and Hassan Whiteside was the highest paid player on the Heat at one point. Back to Gobert, the Jazz would have been better off with a mid level center, because they wouldn't have made the trade for Conley, maybe they go in a different direction and sign Brogdon, then make a trade for a wing after that, the point is that Gobert's salary hurts their flexibility and his impact isn't big enough to justify it, especially not when he can't impact the game defensively. They are hamstrung with a player who makes superstar money, but doesn't have superstar impact. And this isn't just 1 failure, he's been exposed in the playoffs before, this was sadly his best playoff series :lol:

Gobert is up for a supermax, there's almost no chance the Jazz will sign him to it, if you think there's going to be a big market for him as he approaches FA you're going to be wrong.

I don't understand the argument of bringing up ages here, Andre Drummond at 19 was a more productive player than Mitch & Gobert were at 21. We know how Drummond turned out, and why is there this assumption that the floor for Mitch is Gobert, what if he's more like Capela and Adams? Overvaluing Mitch is the point, you think he's a huge asset but the market has already shown what centers like Mitch are worth when they're on their 2nd contract. Mitch is at his most valuable before he signs an extension.
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Re: Mitchell Robinson - Rim runners and the playoffs. 

Post#187 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:29 pm

FutureKnicksGM wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
FutureKnicksGM wrote:The appeal of Mitch is that he can guard smalls on the perimeter with his insane physical tools for his size, so is playable defensively against teams that go small.

Mia just won another game in the finals with Bam playing, not spacing the floor (and also blowing multiple shots at the rim that Mitch would finish easily).



The Heat run offense through Bam, he is their secondary playmaker right now to Butler, trying to paint he and Mitch as the same type of player is just wrong :lol:

He was 2nd on the Heat in APG this season, he's made 100+ jumpers this year as well, he and Mitch are comparable in the same way a Camaro and a Bugatti are, they're both cars, they both go fast...but there's a very clear difference.


Yes Mitch is no Adebayo in term of playmaking, but he doesn’t need to be. The point is you don’t need 5 shooters and playmakers on the floor, especially if Mitch can help in other areas. I can see Mitch gaining a short jumper to keep the D honest.


So why compare him to Bam if can't do the thing that keeps Bam effective on offense? Bam isn't just a rim roller, he is a legitimate secondary playmaker like Draymond or what Randle thinks he of himself. Just to put in perspective how different they are, Bam who isn't even 100% confident with his jumper took 368 of them this year, Mitch took 8, they couldn't be anymore different from one another on offense.

How many rim rollers ever developed a jumper?
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Re: Mitchell Robinson - Rim runners and the playoffs. 

Post#188 » by god shammgod » Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:35 pm

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Re: Mitchell Robinson - Rim runners and the playoffs. 

Post#189 » by god shammgod » Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:42 pm

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Re: Mitchell Robinson - Rim runners and the playoffs. 

Post#190 » by Capn'O » Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:42 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Capn'O wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:

Shaq isn't a rim runner, and Steven Adams never went to the finals, the only rim runner that was an integral part of a championship team was Tyson Chandler and that was almost a decade ago, since then the game has changed and hasn't been favorable to rim runners on big contracts.

You paint the guys as perennial playoff members, when the reality is they are a big reason why their teams couldn't get over the hump in the playoffs. My point has never been about making the playoffs, I want the Knicks to build a championship team, and chances are you're not doing that with a rim runner as a "core" member of your franchise.


You're really reaching on narrative here. Let's take Gobert. Terrible series. Liability on the court in the playoffs. Jazz would be better without him. Right?

Orrrr you could look at what actually happened, the guy averaged 17/11.5 and was a +26 over the course of the series going up against Jokic. He's not the reason the Jazz lost. If he were a better offensive player would they have won? Probably. But he brought substantial value to the Jazz. Replacing him with a different player, let's say Khris Middleton or Paul George, between the top 15-20 players in the league MIGHT get them past the Nuggets but does not get the Jazz past the Lakers regardless of position. A game here or there where he was successfully gameplanned for does not define his career or even series. If the Jazz were to put Gobert on the market right now the return would be MUCH bigger than the difference between the 8th and 2nd pick in this **** draft.

Now, how does this relate to Mitch? Well... when Gobert was Mitch's age? He could barely get on the court. It wasn't until the next year that he did anything. And when he did, he still produced less than Mitch.

That kind of asset should, at the very least, be held until the Knicks can leverage it for a top player in the league. Not dismissed now because he can't be a top-2 player on a champion. What even is that?



He's there for defense, he gave up 26ppg to the guy he was guarding and the Nuggets had a 120 ORTG. He is the 2nd highest paid player on the Jazz, with that contract comes more blame and excuses for his failures fail on deaf ears. Just for reference, Steven Adams is also the 2nd highest paid player on the Jazz, and Hassan Whiteside was the highest paid player on the Heat at one point. Back to Gobert, the Jazz would have been better off with a mid level center, because they wouldn't have made the trade for Conley, maybe they go in a different direction and sign Brogdon, then make a trade for a wing after that, the point is that Gobert's salary hurts their flexibility and his impact isn't big enough to justify it, especially not when he can't impact the game defensively. They are hamstrung with a player who makes superstar money, but doesn't have superstar impact. And this isn't just 1 failure, he's been exposed in the playoffs before, this was sadly his best playoff series :lol:

Gobert is up for a supermax, there's almost no chance the Jazz will sign him to it, if you think there's going to be a big market for him as he approaches FA you're going to be wrong.

I don't understand the argument of bringing up ages here, Andre Drummond at 19 was a more productive player than Mitch & Gobert were at 21. We know how Drummond turned out, and why is there this assumption that the floor for Mitch is Gobert, what if he's more like Capela and Adams? Overvaluing Mitch is the point, you think he's a huge asset but the market has already shown what centers like Mitch are worth when they're on their 2nd contract. Mitch is at his most valuable before he signs an extension.


A mid-level center? So, to be clear, the Jazz could have beaten the Lakers with:

Brogdan
Dmitch
Middleton (Good luck outbidding the Bucks and getting him to Utah)
Jingles
Take your pick between Olynyk (He makes more than the mid-level), Meyers Leonard (ditto), Richaun Holmes (best value here - go with Holmes)

???

Or if they still lost in the first round would that be an indictment on shooting wings?

I'm not buying what you're selling here. The Jazz don't advance past the 2nd round because they don't have the top flight talent, period. They played about even with the Nuggets and OUTSCORED the Nuggets in total and in 4 of the 7 games with Gobert on the floor.


So you're mad at Gobert (and Mitch) because he's not as good as Anthony Davis. Fine. Show me a trade that gets the Knicks an Anthony Davis level player and leaves us with assets to put together a competing team. Is Lamelo Ball a player that good? Is Anthony Edwards? And if you don't know by now you're just shuffling deck chairs because you like the position better. Cause guess what? If they're as good as Middleton you're gonna have to pay them too. I don't see an Anthony Davis in this draft and I'm not messing around with a bird in hand to get some bullsht.
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Re: Mitchell Robinson - Rim runners and the playoffs. 

Post#191 » by B8RcDeMktfxC » Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:45 pm

Interesting discussion about the roll of offense limited Cs in the playoffs itt.

However, that seems entirely irrelevant to Mitch and the Knicks as the Knicks aren't going to the playoffs.

Mitch's future: 6m x 3 if he doesn't get any useful coaching, $16m x 4 if he does.

He probably has to organize the coaching himself. I, personally, think he's pretty smart, however I'm not sure he has the life skills to set that up correctly at this point.
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Re: Mitchell Robinson - Rim runners and the playoffs. 

Post#192 » by god shammgod » Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:51 pm

Capn'O wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Capn'O wrote:
You're really reaching on narrative here. Let's take Gobert. Terrible series. Liability on the court in the playoffs. Jazz would be better without him. Right?

Orrrr you could look at what actually happened, the guy averaged 17/11.5 and was a +26 over the course of the series going up against Jokic. He's not the reason the Jazz lost. If he were a better offensive player would they have won? Probably. But he brought substantial value to the Jazz. Replacing him with a different player, let's say Khris Middleton or Paul George, between the top 15-20 players in the league MIGHT get them past the Nuggets but does not get the Jazz past the Lakers regardless of position. A game here or there where he was successfully gameplanned for does not define his career or even series. If the Jazz were to put Gobert on the market right now the return would be MUCH bigger than the difference between the 8th and 2nd pick in this **** draft.

Now, how does this relate to Mitch? Well... when Gobert was Mitch's age? He could barely get on the court. It wasn't until the next year that he did anything. And when he did, he still produced less than Mitch.

That kind of asset should, at the very least, be held until the Knicks can leverage it for a top player in the league. Not dismissed now because he can't be a top-2 player on a champion. What even is that?



He's there for defense, he gave up 26ppg to the guy he was guarding and the Nuggets had a 120 ORTG. He is the 2nd highest paid player on the Jazz, with that contract comes more blame and excuses for his failures fail on deaf ears. Just for reference, Steven Adams is also the 2nd highest paid player on the Jazz, and Hassan Whiteside was the highest paid player on the Heat at one point. Back to Gobert, the Jazz would have been better off with a mid level center, because they wouldn't have made the trade for Conley, maybe they go in a different direction and sign Brogdon, then make a trade for a wing after that, the point is that Gobert's salary hurts their flexibility and his impact isn't big enough to justify it, especially not when he can't impact the game defensively. They are hamstrung with a player who makes superstar money, but doesn't have superstar impact. And this isn't just 1 failure, he's been exposed in the playoffs before, this was sadly his best playoff series :lol:

Gobert is up for a supermax, there's almost no chance the Jazz will sign him to it, if you think there's going to be a big market for him as he approaches FA you're going to be wrong.

I don't understand the argument of bringing up ages here, Andre Drummond at 19 was a more productive player than Mitch & Gobert were at 21. We know how Drummond turned out, and why is there this assumption that the floor for Mitch is Gobert, what if he's more like Capela and Adams? Overvaluing Mitch is the point, you think he's a huge asset but the market has already shown what centers like Mitch are worth when they're on their 2nd contract. Mitch is at his most valuable before he signs an extension.


A mid-level center? So, to be clear, the Jazz could have beaten the Lakers with:

Brogdan
Dmitch
Middleton (Good luck outbidding the Bucks and getting him to Utah)
Jingles
Take your pick between Olynyk (He makes more than the mid-level), Meyers Leonard (ditto), Richaun Holmes (best value here - go with Holmes)

???

Or if they still lost in the first round would that be an indictment on shooting wings?

I'm not buying what you're selling here. The Jazz don't advance past the 2nd round because they don't have the top flight talent, period. They played about even with the Nuggets and OUTSCORED the Nuggets in total and in 4 of the 7 games with Gobert on the floor.


So you're mad at Gobert (and Mitch) because he's not as good as Anthony Davis. Fine. Show me a trade that gets the Knicks an Anthony Davis level player and leaves us with assets to put together a competing team. Is Lamelo Ball a player that good? Is Anthony Edwards? And if you don't know by now you're just shuffling deck chairs because you like the position better. Cause guess what? If they're as good as Middleton you're gonna have to pay them too. I don't see an Anthony Davis in this draft and I'm not messing around with a bird in hand to get some bullsht.


yes. the basic argument is that javale mcgee and rudy gobert bring the same value to a team and should be paid the same. :lol:
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Re: Mitchell Robinson - Rim runners and the playoffs. 

Post#193 » by Capn'O » Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:52 pm

Also...

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:Nuggets had a 120 ORTG.


And Gobert played 38 minutes per game and had a 116 defensive rating... best of players that played significant minutes. So basically, any time he was out they got absolutely mauled. Maybe the Jazz should have gotten/retained more defenders instead of leaving Gobert on his own on that end :thinking:
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Re: Mitchell Robinson - Rim runners and the playoffs. 

Post#194 » by Capn'O » Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:56 pm

god shammgod wrote:yes. the basic argument is that javale mcgee and rudy gobert bring the same value to a team and should be paid the same. :lol:


But Mike Conley, Middleton, and Brogdan... thems some value deals :lol:
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PG: Kyrie Melton CoJo
SG: SGA KCP TFerg
SF: Middleton Green THT
PF: DFS Bjelica Leaf
C: Nurkic Holmes Eubanks

RIP Mags :beer:
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Re: Mitchell Robinson - Rim runners and the playoffs. 

Post#195 » by Clyde_Style » Sat Oct 10, 2020 7:30 pm

LEAVE MITCH ALONE!
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Re: Mitchell Robinson - Rim runners and the playoffs. 

Post#196 » by Clyde_Style » Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:55 pm

god shammgod wrote:Image


Is that the horse that No Dope On Sundays rode in on?
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Re: Mitchell Robinson - Rim runners and the playoffs. 

Post#197 » by Deeeez Knicks » Sat Oct 10, 2020 10:14 pm

Really, you can pay the mid level/min game with pretty much every position. Lakers have AD and Lebron with basically a roster filled with mid-level and min guys.

The crazy thing about this argument is Mitch is only making $1.5mil for the next 2 years. If we are talking about managing cap and building a team with min Cs well that is exactly what we have in Mitch. Out of every C in the league, he probably has one of the best values. We have 2 years and are able to spend a lot on other positions with a cheap, effective C. If we trade him we are likely to spend more on a C that is probably worse
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Re: Mitchell Robinson - Rim runners and the playoffs. 

Post#198 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:34 am

Capn'O wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Capn'O wrote:
You're really reaching on narrative here. Let's take Gobert. Terrible series. Liability on the court in the playoffs. Jazz would be better without him. Right?

Orrrr you could look at what actually happened, the guy averaged 17/11.5 and was a +26 over the course of the series going up against Jokic. He's not the reason the Jazz lost. If he were a better offensive player would they have won? Probably. But he brought substantial value to the Jazz. Replacing him with a different player, let's say Khris Middleton or Paul George, between the top 15-20 players in the league MIGHT get them past the Nuggets but does not get the Jazz past the Lakers regardless of position. A game here or there where he was successfully gameplanned for does not define his career or even series. If the Jazz were to put Gobert on the market right now the return would be MUCH bigger than the difference between the 8th and 2nd pick in this **** draft.

Now, how does this relate to Mitch? Well... when Gobert was Mitch's age? He could barely get on the court. It wasn't until the next year that he did anything. And when he did, he still produced less than Mitch.

That kind of asset should, at the very least, be held until the Knicks can leverage it for a top player in the league. Not dismissed now because he can't be a top-2 player on a champion. What even is that?



He's there for defense, he gave up 26ppg to the guy he was guarding and the Nuggets had a 120 ORTG. He is the 2nd highest paid player on the Jazz, with that contract comes more blame and excuses for his failures fail on deaf ears. Just for reference, Steven Adams is also the 2nd highest paid player on the Jazz, and Hassan Whiteside was the highest paid player on the Heat at one point. Back to Gobert, the Jazz would have been better off with a mid level center, because they wouldn't have made the trade for Conley, maybe they go in a different direction and sign Brogdon, then make a trade for a wing after that, the point is that Gobert's salary hurts their flexibility and his impact isn't big enough to justify it, especially not when he can't impact the game defensively. They are hamstrung with a player who makes superstar money, but doesn't have superstar impact. And this isn't just 1 failure, he's been exposed in the playoffs before, this was sadly his best playoff series :lol:

Gobert is up for a supermax, there's almost no chance the Jazz will sign him to it, if you think there's going to be a big market for him as he approaches FA you're going to be wrong.

I don't understand the argument of bringing up ages here, Andre Drummond at 19 was a more productive player than Mitch & Gobert were at 21. We know how Drummond turned out, and why is there this assumption that the floor for Mitch is Gobert, what if he's more like Capela and Adams? Overvaluing Mitch is the point, you think he's a huge asset but the market has already shown what centers like Mitch are worth when they're on their 2nd contract. Mitch is at his most valuable before he signs an extension.


A mid-level center? So, to be clear, the Jazz could have beaten the Lakers with:

Brogdan
Dmitch
Middleton (Good luck outbidding the Bucks and getting him to Utah)
Jingles
Take your pick between Olynyk (He makes more than the mid-level), Meyers Leonard (ditto), Richaun Holmes (best value here - go with Holmes)

???

Or if they still lost in the first round would that be an indictment on shooting wings?

I'm not buying what you're selling here. The Jazz don't advance past the 2nd round because they don't have the top flight talent, period. They played about even with the Nuggets and OUTSCORED the Nuggets in total and in 4 of the 7 games with Gobert on the floor.


So you're mad at Gobert (and Mitch) because he's not as good as Anthony Davis. Fine. Show me a trade that gets the Knicks an Anthony Davis level player and leaves us with assets to put together a competing team. Is Lamelo Ball a player that good? Is Anthony Edwards? And if you don't know by now you're just shuffling deck chairs because you like the position better. Cause guess what? If they're as good as Middleton you're gonna have to pay them too. I don't see an Anthony Davis in this draft and I'm not messing around with a bird in hand to get some bullsht.



Why are you skipping all the way to beating the Lakers? The Jazz didn't beat the Nuggets. They lost, whether they played even or not they still lost and Gobert couldn't contain Jokic despite his entire purpose on the court being defense. That is the point here, rim runners are essentially just specialists.

You're stuck on AD for some reason, I haven't really said much about him in this thread. My thread is about rim runners as a whole, I used Gobert as an example in the OP because of how much money he made. But, there's history here of rim runners failing that goes beyond just him. Dwight Howard used to get neutralized by Kendrick Perkins :lol: DeAndre Jordan who is the quintessential rim roller hurt his teams spacing in the playoffs, despite playing with CP3, JJ and Blake those teams couldn't get it done and were always had to go cheap on small forwards because they had a rim roller as part of their court. They should have let DeAndre go when the Mavs wanted him, they should have gone after someone much cheaper to do 70% of what DeAndre did.

If Wiseman is there, we should draft him and trade Mitch. I'm not high on LaMelo or Edwards, but I do see Wiseman as a clear upgrade from a skill standpoint and has the potential to be a two way player, Mitch is only going to be a 1 way player, and like previous rim runners the defense will never make up for the offense, especially when that next contract comes.
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Re: Mitchell Robinson - Rim runners and the playoffs. 

Post#199 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:35 am

Clyde_Style wrote:
god shammgod wrote:Image


Is that the horse that No Dope On Sundays rode in on?



If anyone is riding horses it's the Mitch Mounties stuck in the industrial revolution preaching about coal, I'm off in the future in a Tesla P100 preaching about clean energy 8-)
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Re: Mitchell Robinson - Rim runners and the playoffs. 

Post#200 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:37 am

Deeeez Knicks wrote:Really, you can pay the mid level/min game with pretty much every position. Lakers have AD and Lebron with basically a roster filled with mid-level and min guys.

The crazy thing about this argument is Mitch is only making $1.5mil for the next 2 years. If we are talking about managing cap and building a team with min Cs well that is exactly what we have in Mitch. Out of every C in the league, he probably has one of the best values. We have 2 years and are able to spend a lot on other positions with a cheap, effective C. If we trade him we are likely to spend more on a C that is probably worse




This was addressed in the opening post, the whole thread is about how scary Mitch's next contract could be if he's coming off a season in which he starts and posts typical good rim runner numbers. People in here are fine with him getting Capela money, when Capela isn't even worth Capela money.

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