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its time to talk Chris Paul

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Re: its time to talk Chris Paul 

Post#381 » by Richard4444 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:52 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:Still too early to give up Frank and Knox, especially since bringing in CP3 will take us out of the lottery next year.


I dont count with that. There are teams that must be improved like Wizards and Hawks. Besides, CP3 would need lucky to stay healthy in a condensed schedule under Thibs after 36 years from his birthday.
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Re: its time to talk Chris Paul 

Post#382 » by thebuzzardman » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:56 pm

Richard4444 wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:So, Portis and Payton are filler and could just about be cut, and the "trade" revolves around getting the Knicks last 2 #1 picks besides RJ, and then 2 2nd round picks

Crafty by Presti as he gets a year to try and buy Frank (in this regard if Knicks aren't high on Frank, they are accelerating his exit by a year) and get Knox controlled for 2 more years. And they get TWO #2 picks in a deep draft where there isn't the same salary commitment as there is with first rounders.

I'd tell Presti to f*ck off on the following:
Frank or Know - and honestly both
The 2021 2nd rounders

Again, if the 2021 draft is the wonderful, deep, double draft, then potentially useful players will fall, at least to the high 2nd Charlotte has. Granted, less likely for the 2nd rounder the Mavs have, which will be 54ish.

*edit*
Trade smells like BS. Why does OKC want two PG's back? What purpose does taking on the salary of Portis AND Payton fulfill when they can trade Paul into the Knicks cap space? Is there any reason the Knicks would want to pick up their option just for this purpose - some subtle cap magic I'm missing?


Maybe OKC are interested in Payton and Portis and fear they cant get them as Free Agent.


Surely you jest. Presti is known as a good basketball mind.
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Re: its time to talk Chris Paul 

Post#383 » by nyk2017 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:22 am

The Knicks are not in any risk of contention the next 2 years. At this point, trading away anything of value including Knox, DSJr, Frank or even 2nd round picks for Harden, Westbrook or Paul would be a huge error. I'd rather see them offer a max contract to Ingram. Harden and Westbrook have not shown the ability to win championships and Paul would mostly be here to mentor. Paul can't be a mentor if there are no young players to mentor.

But then again, these are the Knicks. Stupid things are what we do...
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Re: its time to talk Chris Paul 

Post#384 » by snadler » Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:14 am

Read on Twitter
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Re: its time to talk Chris Paul 

Post#385 » by DowNY » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:20 am

nyk2017 wrote:The Knicks are not in any risk of contention the next 2 years. At this point, trading away anything of value including Knox, DSJr, Frank or even 2nd round picks for Harden, Westbrook or Paul would be a huge error. I'd rather see them offer a max contract to Ingram. Harden and Westbrook have not shown the ability to win championships and Paul would mostly be here to mentor. Paul can't be a mentor if there are no young players to mentor.

But then again, these are the Knicks. Stupid things are what we do...

Ingram and Bam are both restricted and most likely get matched
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Re: its time to talk Chris Paul 

Post#386 » by moocow007 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:50 am

thebuzzardman wrote:
2010 wrote:
omerome wrote:Not a fan of paying Paul 38M+ a year just so he can help us win, what? 10 more games this season probably?

Pass.


I'm not exactly advocating for Paul to NY. I'm just saying people can't say that Knox is hot smoldering garbage but then cry when he is a main piece in obtaining an All NBA 2nd Teamer.

As for pursuing CP. I can see Leon Rose's logic, although I am not actively advocating for it. I think he and Thibs want to start fostering a winning culture and mindset. We need to be competitive like YESTERDAY. Perceptions have to change and it starts in the win column. There is no use in naming Thibs your head coach then not getting him horses. I think the idea is to start winning now while simultaneously using player development to get our kids up to speed. Kind of like a smooth handoff in a relay race.


So, I agree with all your takes, and why they might go for Paul etc.

But this is a risk squared or cubed.

There is the normal risk of trading for a guy who'll be 36/37 and making 40 million per
There is the inevitable "Lolz! Same old Knicks" that will IMMEDIATELY start blasting forth from BSPN and the Twitterverse
There is the risk³ of Paul going down with injury and not playing much and the Knicks will be blasted FULL TIME as a laughingstock in the media. Which nowadays seems to mean around the league, as the players seem to ingest 80% of their information from the semi informed press.

That's a helluva risk for a new POBO/FO to take
Rose's tenure could be over as it starts.

Ok, maybe I'm exaggerating. But the heat the Knicks would take, and the blow to "reputation" and "culture" IF Paul is traded for an then has injury issues would be massive.

This thought just came to me, so anyone feel free to add. I think it's a risk too big to take now.
If Paul was 32 even, without an injury history, sure. I could see it.
But this is a guy who'll be at a pretty advanced bball age, especially for a guard, with a fairly significant injury history.
61
58
58
70

That's his last 4 years. Seems more likely he'll play 60 than 70.

Then again, while it's not that great for any player and awful for a guy making 40 million, he's add to culture when playing/practicing, and missing time will add up those losses
Problem obviously if this was a 32 year old CP3 the Knicks would have to basically trade away everything they have now and in the future for him instead of basically giving up 2 young guys that likely won't be part of their future and 2 2nd round picks. Sure the risks of CP3 going down will be disastrous in the court of public opinion but it wouldn't likely be for what the Knicks would be giving up but just because they are the Knicks. To which would the next 2 years of near guaranteed wallowing in pathetic misery (which is what the chances strongly indicate it will be if they just sit tight) be all that different? Sure sure the draft. The Knicks sucked the last 2 seasons and still got screwed with draft positions so stinking isn't a guarantee of anything either.

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Re: its time to talk Chris Paul 

Post#387 » by moocow007 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:57 am

nyk2017 wrote:The Knicks are not in any risk of contention the next 2 years. At this point, trading away anything of value including Knox, DSJr, Frank or even 2nd round picks for Harden, Westbrook or Paul would be a huge error. I'd rather see them offer a max contract to Ingram. Harden and Westbrook have not shown the ability to win championships and Paul would mostly be here to mentor. Paul can't be a mentor if there are no young players to mentor.

But then again, these are the Knicks. Stupid things are what we do...
Ingram would be crazy to accept the Knicks 4 year smaller per year offer instead of the Pelicans 5 year more per year offer that they can offer him due to Bird Rights. The only way for the Knicks to get an Ingram is to work and sign and trade. And I can guarantee you that the Pelicans will want more than Knox, Frank and a couple 2nd round picks. Woukd you be willing to do that? Also Ingram has no ties with the Knicks or NY so no real reason why he'd want to try and force his way here.

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Re: its time to talk Chris Paul 

Post#388 » by moocow007 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:00 am

DowNY wrote:
nyk2017 wrote:The Knicks are not in any risk of contention the next 2 years. At this point, trading away anything of value including Knox, DSJr, Frank or even 2nd round picks for Harden, Westbrook or Paul would be a huge error. I'd rather see them offer a max contract to Ingram. Harden and Westbrook have not shown the ability to win championships and Paul would mostly be here to mentor. Paul can't be a mentor if there are no young players to mentor.

But then again, these are the Knicks. Stupid things are what we do...

Ingram and Bam are both restricted and most likely get matched
The max the Knicks can offer is 4 years $123 million. The Pelicans other can offer 5 years and $168 million. So yeah i would say that the Pels would be thrilled if Ingram signed an offer sheet for 4 years $123 million and match.

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Re: its time to talk Chris Paul 

Post#389 » by NYKat » Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:25 am

2010 wrote:
omerome wrote:
2010 wrote:Chris Paul just made All NBA 2nd Team. And you people loathe Knox. Yet you hate that aspect of the deal? I am disapoint.

Not a fan of paying Paul 38M+ a year just so he can help us win, what? 10 more games this season probably?

Pass.


I'm not exactly advocating for Paul to NY. I'm just saying people can't say that Knox is hot smoldering garbage but then cry when he is a main piece in obtaining an All NBA 2nd Teamer.

As for pursuing CP. I can see Leon Rose's logic, although I am not actively advocating for it. I think he and Thibs want to start fostering a winning culture and mindset. We need to be competitive like YESTERDAY. Perceptions have to change and it starts in the win column. There is no use in naming Thibs your head coach then not getting him horses. I think the idea is to start winning now while simultaneously using player development to get our kids up to speed. Kind of like a smooth handoff in a relay race.


How many times has this franchise used this stupid ass logic to overpay old players...

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Re: its time to talk Chris Paul 

Post#390 » by blanko » Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:21 am

Not offering frank.

They can have knox dsj and filler

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Re: its time to talk Chris Paul 

Post#391 » by thebuzzardman » Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:24 am

moocow007 wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
2010 wrote:
I'm not exactly advocating for Paul to NY. I'm just saying people can't say that Knox is hot smoldering garbage but then cry when he is a main piece in obtaining an All NBA 2nd Teamer.

As for pursuing CP. I can see Leon Rose's logic, although I am not actively advocating for it. I think he and Thibs want to start fostering a winning culture and mindset. We need to be competitive like YESTERDAY. Perceptions have to change and it starts in the win column. There is no use in naming Thibs your head coach then not getting him horses. I think the idea is to start winning now while simultaneously using player development to get our kids up to speed. Kind of like a smooth handoff in a relay race.


So, I agree with all your takes, and why they might go for Paul etc.

But this is a risk squared or cubed.

There is the normal risk of trading for a guy who'll be 36/37 and making 40 million per
There is the inevitable "Lolz! Same old Knicks" that will IMMEDIATELY start blasting forth from BSPN and the Twitterverse
There is the risk³ of Paul going down with injury and not playing much and the Knicks will be blasted FULL TIME as a laughingstock in the media. Which nowadays seems to mean around the league, as the players seem to ingest 80% of their information from the semi informed press.

That's a helluva risk for a new POBO/FO to take
Rose's tenure could be over as it starts.

Ok, maybe I'm exaggerating. But the heat the Knicks would take, and the blow to "reputation" and "culture" IF Paul is traded for an then has injury issues would be massive.

This thought just came to me, so anyone feel free to add. I think it's a risk too big to take now.
If Paul was 32 even, without an injury history, sure. I could see it.
But this is a guy who'll be at a pretty advanced bball age, especially for a guard, with a fairly significant injury history.
61
58
58
70

That's his last 4 years. Seems more likely he'll play 60 than 70.

Then again, while it's not that great for any player and awful for a guy making 40 million, he's add to culture when playing/practicing, and missing time will add up those losses
Problem obviously if this was a 32 year old CP3 the Knicks would have to basically trade away everything they have now and in the future for him instead of basically giving up 2 young guys that likely won't be part of their future and 2 2nd round picks. Sure the risks of CP3 going down will be disastrous in the court of public opinion but it wouldn't likely be for what the Knicks would be giving up but just because they are the Knicks. To which would the next 2 years of near guaranteed wallowing in pathetic misery (which is what the chances strongly indicate it will be if they just sit tight) be all that different? Sure sure the draft. The Knicks sucked the last 2 seasons and still got screwed with draft positions so stinking isn't a guarantee of anything either.

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I prefer Frank to DSJr, but have always said one of them should be dealt this year, especially if they sign or draft a PG.
So, in that regard it's not the end of the world and something I've generally supported

And while Knox hasn't been that great, putting in another young player gives me pause in a trade.
And that's knowing you have to give to get, but while Knicks get the better player, he's at the end of his career and making 40 million per.
Not sure what to think of the picks. IF they are just #2's, I guess it's ok, but that draft will be so deep, who knows who falls, particularly to the Charlotte pick. If the other is the Detroit pick, that could be good for a 2nd rounder too.
Also, 2nd round picks have a lot of financial flexibility and dealing those away seems "counter Aller"
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Re: its time to talk Chris Paul 

Post#392 » by Reign23 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:12 am

really hope we keep frank.
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Re: its time to talk Chris Paul 

Post#393 » by LibertyKnicks00 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:33 am

Chris Paul — Cole Anthony
Fred Van Vleet — Damyean Dotson
R.J. Barrett —
Christian Wood — Tony Wooten
Mitchell Robinson — ????

Now that’s a team that’ll be fun. You have Cole under Chris Paul’s wing, especially with our coaching staff. Cole will thrive. Really two leaders that can do it all. This is something I can get behind.
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Re: its time to talk Chris Paul 

Post#394 » by MadGrinch » Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:00 pm

its virtual suicide to take a player whose aging and injury prone on a contract he has no hope of being worth

chris paul avg 17 , 5 and 7 for which he was paid 38 million dollars

next season he'll be an even older player making 41 million , and the season after that 45 million

no team in the history of the league has won titles taking bad contracts and giving up assets to do so for a quick boost in wins and a culture change .

almost uniformly winning teams maximize their assets and cap space whenever possible .

a generation ago the knicks made this exact mistake , in trading rod strickland for an old Mo cheeks , and then later trading mark jackson for an aging doc rivers , neither were with the team when they made their finals run in 1994 but both Jackson and strickland were now in their prime and the knicks ultimately lost because they had no better offensive options than to let john starks go 2-18 in a game 7(rod strickland that season was 6th in assists at 9 per game to go with 17.2 pts per game.)

its just the stuff only losing franchises do.
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Re: its time to talk Chris Paul 

Post#395 » by NYKat » Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:13 pm

If they executed this deal as currently constructed it’s just more of the same, and I’ll probably check out on this team...

Based on the rumors and targets I’m hearing, this new regime isn’t inspiring confidence and enthusiasm
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Re: its time to talk Chris Paul 

Post#396 » by Worst_to_First » Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:21 pm

moocow007 wrote:
nyk2017 wrote:The Knicks are not in any risk of contention the next 2 years. At this point, trading away anything of value including Knox, DSJr, Frank or even 2nd round picks for Harden, Westbrook or Paul would be a huge error. I'd rather see them offer a max contract to Ingram. Harden and Westbrook have not shown the ability to win championships and Paul would mostly be here to mentor. Paul can't be a mentor if there are no young players to mentor.

But then again, these are the Knicks. Stupid things are what we do...
Ingram would be crazy to accept the Knicks 4 year smaller per year offer instead of the Pelicans 5 year more per year offer that they can offer him due to Bird Rights. The only way for the Knicks to get an Ingram is to work and sign and trade. And I can guarantee you that the Pelicans will want more than Knox, Frank and a couple 2nd round picks. Woukd you be willing to do that? Also Ingram has no ties with the Knicks or NY so no real reason why he'd want to try and force his way here.

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Yeah Ingram strikes me as a guy who likes a small market.

Pelicans will also want to keep their all star given all the question marks surrounding Zion.
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Re: its time to talk Chris Paul 

Post#397 » by BowlRips » Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:05 pm

From Supes

4. LAC is in talks with OKC/PHX/SAS for a PG. I was told, they are the leading team in a Chris Paul trade. There is some major hangups for CP3 from all teams due to his contract. Which has limited the teams to Philly who is lukewarm in trading assets for him. NY is only willing to trade a expiring like Randle and a trash young player like Knox. I was told NYK wants to keep Frank N and he's NOT available anymore for any type of deal. Thibs wants him. His contract makes trades really really hard still. His media market is MUCH better than his real market.

Westbrook's market has been understated. His market is bigger than it is and I was told HOU isn't moving him and done want to move him unless they get value in return. He stated CP3 will likely go to New York or Los Angeles and most likely New York. There is some doubt about the fit for CP3 with Kawhi and PG13 around the league and the Knicks really want a vet to make it easier to develop Robinson and Barrett but they are NOT trading real assets to land CP3 either. What shocked me was I was told Al Horford has HIGHER trade value right now than CP3 just because of his contract makes it so hard to do a trade. LAC is targeting Collison, Rondo, and Dragic in FA as well. CP3 still wants to go to Milwaukee but Milwaukee will NOT trade any assets in a CP3 trade other than Bledsoe and money wise, they are limited and do NOT want to trade George Hill as well.

There has been talks about Rubio for LA but I was told it's unlikely. There has been talks about a Murray or White trade but nothing concrete. LAC is clearly targeting a PG and that either Pat Bev or Lou Williams is players they are dangling to land that said PG.


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Re: its time to talk Chris Paul 

Post#398 » by Jeff Van Gully » Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:13 pm

BowlRips wrote:From Supes

4. LAC is in talks with OKC/PHX/SAS for a PG. I was told, they are the leading team in a Chris Paul trade. There is some major hangups for CP3 from all teams due to his contract. Which has limited the teams to Philly who is lukewarm in trading assets for him. NY is only willing to trade a expiring like Randle and a trash young player like Knox. I was told NYK wants to keep Frank N and he's NOT available anymore for any type of deal. Thibs wants him. His contract makes trades really really hard still. His media market is MUCH better than his real market.

Westbrook's market has been understated. His market is bigger than it is and I was told HOU isn't moving him and done want to move him unless they get value in return. He stated CP3 will likely go to New York or Los Angeles and most likely New York. There is some doubt about the fit for CP3 with Kawhi and PG13 around the league and the Knicks really want a vet to make it easier to develop Robinson and Barrett but they are NOT trading real assets to land CP3 either. What shocked me was I was told Al Horford has HIGHER trade value right now than CP3 just because of his contract makes it so hard to do a trade. LAC is targeting Collison, Rondo, and Dragic in FA as well. CP3 still wants to go to Milwaukee but Milwaukee will NOT trade any assets in a CP3 trade other than Bledsoe and money wise, they are limited and do NOT want to trade George Hill as well.

There has been talks about Rubio for LA but I was told it's unlikely. There has been talks about a Murray or White trade but nothing concrete. LAC is clearly targeting a PG and that either Pat Bev or Lou Williams is players they are dangling to land that said PG.


https://www.hawksquawk.net/topic/431653-ask-supes/page/168/#comments


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Re: its time to talk Chris Paul 

Post#399 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:18 pm

:lol:

We're really going to trade players and picks for CP3? I better not see any of you who want CP3 talking bad about using caproom on FVV.
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Re: its time to talk Chris Paul 

Post#400 » by TheGreenArrow » Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:21 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote::lol:

We're really going to trade players and picks for CP3? I better not see any of you who want CP3 talking bad about using caproom on FVV.


If it’s just Randle and Knox or dsjr with a couple of future 2nds I’d do that and run.

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