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Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks)

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Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks) 

Post#81 » by K-DOT » Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:21 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:
gavran wrote:
ABOVE_THE_RIM wrote:Trade for John Wall and draft picks. That team will be horrible for years to come. Take their assets and don’t look back.


2019-20 2020-21 2021-22 2022-23
$37,800,000 $40,824,000 $43,848,000 $46,872,000

Blueprint!

The idea is, if you're gonna trade for Westbrook, you might as well trade for Wall whose contract is pretty similar, but you'd theoretically be able to get more out of Washington for taking him cause Houston has no assets.
BAF Lakers:

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Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks) 

Post#82 » by zimpy27 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:49 pm

Dennis Smith Jr could be the guy Thibs tries to promote to that Rose role.
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Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks) 

Post#83 » by moocow007 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:01 pm

zimpy27 wrote:Dennis Smith Jr could be the guy Thibs tries to promote to that Rose role.


Smith's biggest enemy and foil is himself. Talent is there. Just the question about whether his mind and heart are there. So far, it's mostly not.
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Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks) 

Post#84 » by zimpy27 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:10 pm

moocow007 wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:Dennis Smith Jr could be the guy Thibs tries to promote to that Rose role.


Smith's biggest enemy and foil is himself. Talent is there. Just the question about whether his mind and heart are there. So far, it's mostly not.


He did have a terrible year last year but he also wasn't favoured by Fizdales style, plus he had some injuries.

He suits Thibs style and I think he will have his best chance to prove himself this season. After this season his future will be known.
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Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks) 

Post#85 » by moocow007 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:20 pm

zimpy27 wrote:
moocow007 wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:Dennis Smith Jr could be the guy Thibs tries to promote to that Rose role.


Smith's biggest enemy and foil is himself. Talent is there. Just the question about whether his mind and heart are there. So far, it's mostly not.


He did have a terrible year last year but he also wasn't favoured by Fizdales style, plus he had some injuries.

He suits Thibs style and I think he will have his best chance to prove himself this season. After this season his future will be known.


Unlike most Knick fans, I don't hate Smith. I still see potential. But this likely will be his last chance to show that he can be a significant player on an NBA team. The coaching and system wasn't ideal for sure and the Knicks front office's mind numbing signings before the start of the season did not help at all but you don't get ideal very often and Smith needs to learn to deal with it. I do hope that injuries and the death in the family really was the culprit and that he'll come into next season focused and driven. I was a huge fan of his coming out of college and thought that he had top 3 talent but he's just not lived up to expectations.

Yeah, under Thibs, it's conceptually a better situation for him in more of a Derrick Rose like role. He's not prime Rose obviously but he really is at his best when you basically just shoot him out of a cannon and have him attack and create for himself. He's not great as a pass first point and I do get the sense that that was what the Knicks tried making him (due to their desperate need for a pass first, create for others, point guard based on their lack of talent when it comes to shot creating with everyone else on their roster). You want to put guys into roles that they are good at. That's what successful teams do. Unsuccessful teams try to make players into what they are not and don't have the structure to compensate for players weaknesses (Julius Randle is a perfect example).
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Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks) 

Post#86 » by NYKAL » Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:28 pm

HELL to the NO. Don't like him or his fashion sense
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Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks) 

Post#87 » by NYKAL » Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:30 pm

if the team is serious about changing the culture, (not doing business as they have in the past) then you DO NOT make this move. He's no savior and last thing we need is this sensitive ass dude arguing with fans in the front row.
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Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks) 

Post#88 » by MadGrinch » Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:49 pm

WargamesX wrote:What is the Derrick rose type of PG.

Fast, small, and attacking.


derrick rose isn't small.

kira lewis jr is small

at 19 Rose was playing at 200lbs

kira at 165 , big difference
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Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks) 

Post#89 » by Jay10 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:25 pm

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Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks) 

Post#90 » by moocow007 » Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:41 am

The closest thing to a Thibodeau guard in this draft would probably be a tuned in Antnony Edwards. But I dont think that Thibs or the Knicks need someone like Edwards any more or less than any other team would want someone like him.

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Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks) 

Post#91 » by MadGrinch » Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:09 pm

moocow007 wrote:The closest thing to a Thibodeau guard in this draft would probably be a tuned in Antnony Edwards. But I dont think that Thibs or the Knicks need someone like Edwards any more or less than any other team would want someone like him.

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To me a "Thibs" guard would be someone who embodies at least most of his principles.

someone who makes the extra pass, rebounds , gets to the line and defends.

the guards who resemble that the most are RJ Hampton and Theo Maledon ,

out of guys who'll be there at #8 Patrick williams and issac okoro

i like edwards as a talent but he rarely defends until the end of the game and is very iso-centric
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Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks) 

Post#92 » by moocow007 » Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:47 pm

MadGrinch wrote:
moocow007 wrote:The closest thing to a Thibodeau guard in this draft would probably be a tuned in Antnony Edwards. But I dont think that Thibs or the Knicks need someone like Edwards any more or less than any other team would want someone like him.

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To me a "Thibs" guard would be someone who embodies at least most of his principles.

someone who makes the extra pass, rebounds , gets to the line and defends.

the guards who resemble that the most are RJ Hampton and Theo Maledon ,

out of guys who'll be there at #8 Patrick williams and issac okoro

i like edwards as a talent but he rarely defends until the end of the game and is very iso-centric


Rose rarely defended as well and his assists per game based on the amount of touches he got and minutes played was really subpar.

What Edwards is is a very intelligent and sharp guy. I would strongly suggest that you watch his interview with Mike Schmitz where they spend time breaking down Edwards game. BY FAR, BY FAR Edwards was the smartest and sharpest guy he interviewed. Edwards recognized every play, what he did right and did wrong and what he should have done. Knowledge is half the battle. And the general consensus is that Edwards has the basketball IQ and tools to be a top tier defender. His 5.2rpg as a guard is among the tops in college basketball. Also what most scouts acknowledge is that Edwards also can create shots for others. It's really a matter of him maturing his game. I get the sense that folks are creating opinions of guys based on hype and rumor, and instead should be watching and studying him a little more closely. If I had one choice of one player to take (meaning if I was the GM and I had the 1st overall pick in this draft) I would take Edwards, no question and it wouldn't just be for his offense.

Hampton and Maledon? Neither guy can score and if we are going with the Derrick Rose model as an ideal "Thibs guard" (which, IF anyone is going to assume there even is a "Thibs guard" archetype, it would be Rose) they would be far far removed from what Thibs would want. Hampton is toolsy, that is it. He doesn't use his tools well on either side of the court. He struggles to create his own shot off the dribble and he's inconsistent on the defensive end. I don't see why in any form or fashion Thibs would want a guard like that. I think you may have a misconception of what type of a player is a "Thibs guard". The notion that Thibs only wants defensive players is a false one, not sure why folks keep assuming that. He want's guys that perform real well at the role that he needs them to perform in and for the most part the expectation for his guards has been to be able to carry the load offensively.

Thibs main guard went from Rose to Butler. Both guys can carry the load on the offensive end and both put pressure on opposing defenses to stop and allowed Thibs to control the pace and flow of the game. Thibs even said so himself, the goal on offense is to score in easy shot opportunities. That means you either have a guy that can facilitate easy shot opps for others (which Hampton doesn't do) or that can create easy shot opps for himself (which Hampton also cannot do).

Russell Westbrook would be about as close to a prime Derrick Rose type guy as you can get right now in the NBA that is gettable (which is why I even started this discussion as a "IF the goal is to get a 'Thibs' guard"). Kyrie Irving would be the other (he's obviously not gettable). A guy that can barrel the ball into opposing defenses and create shots, put pressure and allow Thibs to run his defensive schemes to dictate the other end. He didn't win by defense anymore than Phil Jackson won by defense or Chuck Daly won by defense. All those guys won by controlling the tempo and the pace of the entire game to where his team were able to maximize their strengths and minimize their weaknesses. And a big part of that was controlling things on the defensive end (by systemic team play) but also on the offensive end (usually led by at least one elite shot creator that you can always rely on to keep opposing teams on their heels).
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Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks) 

Post#93 » by Juco24 » Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:14 pm

moocow007 wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:Dennis Smith Jr could be the guy Thibs tries to promote to that Rose role.


Smith's biggest enemy and foil is himself. Talent is there. Just the question about whether his mind and heart are there. So far, it's mostly not.


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Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks) 

Post#94 » by thebuzzardman » Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:04 pm

Interesting topic.

It's more interesting to think of the kinds of players Thibs had in his rotations in Chicago and Minny, how he used them, instead of just the PG.
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Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks) 

Post#95 » by zimpy27 » Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:10 pm

What about Anfernee Simons?
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Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks) 

Post#96 » by 3toheadmelo » Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:19 pm

zimpy27 wrote:What about Anfernee Simons?

Meh.. not a big fan. He’s overhyped imo and is just living off his high school reputation
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Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks) 

Post#97 » by MadGrinch » Sat Sep 26, 2020 1:28 am

moocow007 wrote:
MadGrinch wrote:
moocow007 wrote:The closest thing to a Thibodeau guard in this draft would probably be a tuned in Antnony Edwards. But I dont think that Thibs or the Knicks need someone like Edwards any more or less than any other team would want someone like him.

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To me a "Thibs" guard would be someone who embodies at least most of his principles.

someone who makes the extra pass, rebounds , gets to the line and defends.

the guards who resemble that the most are RJ Hampton and Theo Maledon ,

out of guys who'll be there at #8 Patrick williams and issac okoro

i like edwards as a talent but he rarely defends until the end of the game and is very iso-centric


Rose rarely defended as well and his assists per game based on the amount of touches he got and minutes played was really subpar.

What Edwards is is a very intelligent and sharp guy. I would strongly suggest that you watch his interview with Mike Schmitz where they spend time breaking down Edwards game. BY FAR, BY FAR Edwards was the smartest and sharpest guy he interviewed. Edwards recognized every play, what he did right and did wrong and what he should have done. Knowledge is half the battle. And the general consensus is that Edwards has the basketball IQ and tools to be a top tier defender. His 5.2rpg as a guard is among the tops in college basketball. Also what most scouts acknowledge is that Edwards also can create shots for others. It's really a matter of him maturing his game. I get the sense that folks are creating opinions of guys based on hype and rumor, and instead should be watching and studying him a little more closely. If I had one choice of one player to take (meaning if I was the GM and I had the 1st overall pick in this draft) I would take Edwards, no question and it wouldn't just be for his offense.

Hampton and Maledon? Neither guy can score and if we are going with the Derrick Rose model as an ideal "Thibs guard" (which, IF anyone is going to assume there even is a "Thibs guard" archetype, it would be Rose) they would be far far removed from what Thibs would want. Hampton is toolsy, that is it. He doesn't use his tools well on either side of the court. He struggles to create his own shot off the dribble and he's inconsistent on the defensive end. I don't see why in any form or fashion Thibs would want a guard like that. I think you may have a misconception of what type of a player is a "Thibs guard". The notion that Thibs only wants defensive players is a false one, not sure why folks keep assuming that. He want's guys that perform real well at the role that he needs them to perform in and for the most part the expectation for his guards has been to be able to carry the load offensively.

Thibs main guard went from Rose to Butler. Both guys can carry the load on the offensive end and both put pressure on opposing defenses to stop and allowed Thibs to control the pace and flow of the game. Thibs even said so himself, the goal on offense is to score in easy shot opportunities. That means you either have a guy that can facilitate easy shot opps for others (which Hampton doesn't do) or that can create easy shot opps for himself (which Hampton also cannot do).

Russell Westbrook would be about as close to a prime Derrick Rose type guy as you can get right now in the NBA that is gettable (which is why I even started this discussion as a "IF the goal is to get a 'Thibs' guard"). Kyrie Irving would be the other (he's obviously not gettable). A guy that can barrel the ball into opposing defenses and create shots, put pressure and allow Thibs to run his defensive schemes to dictate the other end. He didn't win by defense anymore than Phil Jackson won by defense or Chuck Daly won by defense. All those guys won by controlling the tempo and the pace of the entire game to where his team were able to maximize their strengths and minimize their weaknesses. And a big part of that was controlling things on the defensive end (by systemic team play) but also on the offensive end (usually led by at least one elite shot creator that you can always rely on to keep opposing teams on their heels).


your whole premise is that Rose is the ideal Thibs point guard despite the fact that even you acknowledge he doesn't really hold up to the principles Thibs espouses

according to what Thibs says he wants , in truth it is probably Chris Paul

its worth noting Thibs played Butler his career high in minutes before he could score , so scoring is probably not as high on his priorities as you are making it just off of facts
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Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks) 

Post#98 » by HerSports85 » Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:37 am

Ideally, it’ll be DSJ if Bryant and Thibs can make everything click for him.
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Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks) 

Post#99 » by moocow007 » Sat Sep 26, 2020 4:44 am

MadGrinch wrote:
moocow007 wrote:
MadGrinch wrote:
To me a "Thibs" guard would be someone who embodies at least most of his principles.

someone who makes the extra pass, rebounds , gets to the line and defends.

the guards who resemble that the most are RJ Hampton and Theo Maledon ,

out of guys who'll be there at #8 Patrick williams and issac okoro

i like edwards as a talent but he rarely defends until the end of the game and is very iso-centric


Rose rarely defended as well and his assists per game based on the amount of touches he got and minutes played was really subpar.

What Edwards is is a very intelligent and sharp guy. I would strongly suggest that you watch his interview with Mike Schmitz where they spend time breaking down Edwards game. BY FAR, BY FAR Edwards was the smartest and sharpest guy he interviewed. Edwards recognized every play, what he did right and did wrong and what he should have done. Knowledge is half the battle. And the general consensus is that Edwards has the basketball IQ and tools to be a top tier defender. His 5.2rpg as a guard is among the tops in college basketball. Also what most scouts acknowledge is that Edwards also can create shots for others. It's really a matter of him maturing his game. I get the sense that folks are creating opinions of guys based on hype and rumor, and instead should be watching and studying him a little more closely. If I had one choice of one player to take (meaning if I was the GM and I had the 1st overall pick in this draft) I would take Edwards, no question and it wouldn't just be for his offense.

Hampton and Maledon? Neither guy can score and if we are going with the Derrick Rose model as an ideal "Thibs guard" (which, IF anyone is going to assume there even is a "Thibs guard" archetype, it would be Rose) they would be far far removed from what Thibs would want. Hampton is toolsy, that is it. He doesn't use his tools well on either side of the court. He struggles to create his own shot off the dribble and he's inconsistent on the defensive end. I don't see why in any form or fashion Thibs would want a guard like that. I think you may have a misconception of what type of a player is a "Thibs guard". The notion that Thibs only wants defensive players is a false one, not sure why folks keep assuming that. He want's guys that perform real well at the role that he needs them to perform in and for the most part the expectation for his guards has been to be able to carry the load offensively.

Thibs main guard went from Rose to Butler. Both guys can carry the load on the offensive end and both put pressure on opposing defenses to stop and allowed Thibs to control the pace and flow of the game. Thibs even said so himself, the goal on offense is to score in easy shot opportunities. That means you either have a guy that can facilitate easy shot opps for others (which Hampton doesn't do) or that can create easy shot opps for himself (which Hampton also cannot do).

Russell Westbrook would be about as close to a prime Derrick Rose type guy as you can get right now in the NBA that is gettable (which is why I even started this discussion as a "IF the goal is to get a 'Thibs' guard"). Kyrie Irving would be the other (he's obviously not gettable). A guy that can barrel the ball into opposing defenses and create shots, put pressure and allow Thibs to run his defensive schemes to dictate the other end. He didn't win by defense anymore than Phil Jackson won by defense or Chuck Daly won by defense. All those guys won by controlling the tempo and the pace of the entire game to where his team were able to maximize their strengths and minimize their weaknesses. And a big part of that was controlling things on the defensive end (by systemic team play) but also on the offensive end (usually led by at least one elite shot creator that you can always rely on to keep opposing teams on their heels).


your whole premise is that Rose is the ideal Thibs point guard despite the fact that even you acknowledge he doesn't really hold up to the principles Thibs espouses

according to what Thibs says he wants , in truth it is probably Chris Paul

its worth noting Thibs played Butler his career high in minutes before he could score , so scoring is probably not as high on his priorities as you are making it just off of facts
You're not really reading what I'm saying and just trying to go on the defensive. You yourself have already changed your mind on what type of PG Thibs is really after. That says something doesn't it?

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Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks) 

Post#100 » by HarthorneWingo » Sat Sep 26, 2020 5:45 am

Juco24 wrote:
moocow007 wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:Dennis Smith Jr could be the guy Thibs tries to promote to that Rose role.


Smith's biggest enemy and foil is himself. Talent is there. Just the question about whether his mind and heart are there. So far, it's mostly not.


Let the church say amen


I just think isn't a very good basketball player. He was always this shiny object with these very same questions about him before the draft. I'd rather have Langston Galloway on the Knicks than DSJ.
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