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Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks) (Westbrook thread)
Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:24 pm
by moocow007
So there's been a lot of talk about PG's that could potentially be a Knick next season. From drafting one, signing one or trading for one. All sorts of names from guys in college guys to established NBA players and even vets playing overseas right now. As far as current NBA players, talking about guys that are free agents or that have been rumored to be possible trade candidates as their team look to go in a different direction due to salary, franchise reset or fit. Of all the names, one then would start thinking who among them would likely fit best with this team and (probably more importantly) the head coach cause. The last thing you want is to add someone that may not be a best fit for the team and the coach.
So...based on all the names that have been brought up as possibly looking for a new home next season, the one guy that I consistently come back to is this guy right here (already mocked up in blue and orange):
Rumors are right now that the Rockets MAY be looking to move Westbrook due to poor fit concerns with The Beard. The Knicks have been rumored to have been interested in Westbrook on numerous occasions in the past. Westbrook is a Derrick Rose like lead guard, probably about as close to Rose when Rose when in MVP shape as you can get. The Rockets did not exactly give up the farm to get Westbrook (2 future 1st round picks and 2 pick swap options but also got OKC to take CP3's giganto contract) so it's reasonable to justify that it would not take the farm for another team to acquire Westbrook. Westbrook would give the Knicks the best PG they've ever had since Clyde Frazier (even at this point in his career). And of course Westbrook can also help this team win as much as probably CP3 would.
Personally I think IF the Knicks do go with a big name, big dollar point guard (not that it would be my ideal scenario) maybe getting the Rockets on the phone and working out a deal where the Knicks acquire Westbrook. Westbrook is a shoot first point but he's also been top 3 in the league in assists per game for 4 of the last 5 years and is generally considered an excellent passer with great court vision. Westbrook is also about as intense a player as you can get so as an "example guy" of how you need to play he's it. And unlike CP3, Westbrook will still be in his prime for the length of his Super Max contract (also 3 years left on it). The contract likely will eat up a giant chunk of the team cap but what it does is it'll give the Knicks a legit lead guy while their young players develop that can make NY back from the dredges. Maybe not a championship team (due to the cap clogging contract that Westbrook) but unless the Knicks really believe they can be championship caliber in 3 years (let's be realistic here) maybe Westbrook would be your best bet get that can both perform and impact.
Trade for Westbrook and then use that 8th pick for a shooter (Vassell) or a defensive wing (Okoro). Then you have more freedom to move Randle for anyone that has best value instead of having to try to get back a PG in the deal.
Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks)
Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:26 pm
by god shammgod
Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks)
Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:28 pm
by moocow007
Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks)
Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:32 pm
by omerome
Big time pass. Westbrook and RJ are so redundant and we'd lack any type of spacing.
Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks)
Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:35 pm
by DOT
Don't like him next to RJ one bit
He could probably do a DRose impression for a bit, but he has 3 years 132 million left on his deal
You could probably get more assets out of the Wizards for Wall if you want to use up that much cap space.
Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks)
Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:36 pm
by iLLmatic860
Ill take Brook
Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks)
Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:36 pm
by mpharris36
Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks)
Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:41 pm
by NoDopeOnSundays
Bro, let me get this straight, you don't want Fred at 4 years $80-85 million, but are cool with Westbrook for 3 years $132 million? A player who is clearly in his athletic decline already and shot 26% from three this year? Man.....
Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks)
Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:51 pm
by moocow007
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:Bro, let me get this straight, you don't want Fred at 4 years $80-85 million, but are cool with Westbrook for 3 years $132 million? A player who is clearly in his athletic decline already and shot 26% from three this year? Man.....
The Knicks aren't getting FVV for 4 years $80-85 million. There is no reason the Raptors, who cannot attract free agents to go to Canada, would let him go if FVV was willing to take that. They'll offer him a 5th year (at $20 million per) and it'll be the end of that. The Knicks will need to give him near max 4 years $120 million (that's $30 million a year for an inefficient 3rd option guy) and hope that the per year will scare the Raptors away. At which point, yes, I'd rather pay Westbrook $10 million more for the next 3 years than FVV cause Westbrook is more than 25% better than FVV. Unlike FVV, who's again ahs shown he's an inefficient 3rd option, Westbrook has shown he is more than fine as a 1st option all by himself and still get a team to the playoffs. IF the goal is to add a big contracted PG that can move the needle up, yes, I'd rather Westbrook.
Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks)
Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:55 pm
by NoDopeOnSundays
moocow007 wrote:NoDopeOnSundays wrote:Bro, let me get this straight, you don't want Fred at 4 years $80-85 million, but are cool with Westbrook for 3 years $132 million? A player who is clearly in his athletic decline already and shot 26% from three this year? Man.....
The Knicks aren't getting FVV for 4 years $80-85 million. There is no reason the Raptors, who cannot attract free agents to go to Canada, would let him go if FVV was willing to take that. They'll offer him a 5th year and it'll be the end of that. The Knicks will need to give him near max 4 years $120 million and hope that the per year will scare the Raptors away. At which point, yes, I'd rather pay Westbrook $10 million more for the next 3 years than FVV cause Westbrook is more than 25% better than FVV.
It's not going to take $120 million to get Fred, he's unrestricted and you can structure the deal in a way it impacts the Raptors 2021 capspace.
Westbrook is done, his entire game is based on athleticism and he can't shoot. I wouldn't want him in any capacity, especially since he'd always have the ball in his hands. He's basically just Julius Randle at the PG spot in terms of how he plays and how much he needs the ball, Julius is actually a better shooter too
Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks)
Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:00 pm
by moocow007
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:moocow007 wrote:NoDopeOnSundays wrote:Bro, let me get this straight, you don't want Fred at 4 years $80-85 million, but are cool with Westbrook for 3 years $132 million? A player who is clearly in his athletic decline already and shot 26% from three this year? Man.....
The Knicks aren't getting FVV for 4 years $80-85 million. There is no reason the Raptors, who cannot attract free agents to go to Canada, would let him go if FVV was willing to take that. They'll offer him a 5th year and it'll be the end of that. The Knicks will need to give him near max 4 years $120 million and hope that the per year will scare the Raptors away. At which point, yes, I'd rather pay Westbrook $10 million more for the next 3 years than FVV cause Westbrook is more than 25% better than FVV.
It's not going to take $120 million to get Fred, he's unrestricted and you can structure the deal in a way it impacts the Raptors 2021 capspace.
Westbrook is done, his entire game is based on athleticism and he can't shoot. I wouldn't want him in any capacity, especially since he'd always have the ball in his hands. He's basically just Julius Randle at the PG spot in terms of how he plays and how much he needs the ball, Julius is actually a better shooter too
IF FVV is that good then why on earth would he take 4 years $80 million to join a crap team like the Knicks? What structure are you going to put in to a 4 year $80 million deal that is going to scare away the Raptors? The Raptors are NOT a small market team (they currently rank 10th in valuation just below the multiple teams located in the biggest cities in the US and that's with them being the only team in the top 10 that doesn't have their own television network which would make them even more lucrative and valuable). What they are is a team that realizes they have a problem attracting free agents (because they are in Canada). They aren't the Bucks or the Thunder (both small market AND has trouble attracting free agents). Folks seem to consistently miss that. And what part of why is he so inefficient if he's actually got both Siakam AND Lowry on the team drawing defensive attention away from him are you consistently ignoring/minimizing? Yes, he's an excellent 3 point shooter who gambles on defense to make up for his slow foot speed and short length cause his team can cover for him. That defensive part won't work in NY even with Thibs and he'll be exposed as it takes years for a team to develop a defensive identity to cover for it. His lack of ability to create shots and the lack of stars to draw defenses away from him will also likely make him even less likely to get open looks at the basket and make him less efficient overall than he already is when he's going to be asked to create his own shot more and look to score more often in less ideal situations than he's seeing in Toronto. IF he's anywhere near Westbrook (what you are head scratchingly implying), he'd be easily worth 4 years $123 million and, as a result, impossible to get, cause the Raptors will realize that and give him more (cause they can).
Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks)
Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:32 pm
by NoDopeOnSundays
moocow007 wrote:NoDopeOnSundays wrote:moocow007 wrote:
The Knicks aren't getting FVV for 4 years $80-85 million. There is no reason the Raptors, who cannot attract free agents to go to Canada, would let him go if FVV was willing to take that. They'll offer him a 5th year and it'll be the end of that. The Knicks will need to give him near max 4 years $120 million and hope that the per year will scare the Raptors away. At which point, yes, I'd rather pay Westbrook $10 million more for the next 3 years than FVV cause Westbrook is more than 25% better than FVV.
It's not going to take $120 million to get Fred, he's unrestricted and you can structure the deal in a way it impacts the Raptors 2021 capspace.
Westbrook is done, his entire game is based on athleticism and he can't shoot. I wouldn't want him in any capacity, especially since he'd always have the ball in his hands. He's basically just Julius Randle at the PG spot in terms of how he plays and how much he needs the ball, Julius is actually a better shooter too
IF FVV is that good then why on earth would he take 4 years $80 million to join a crap team like the Knicks? What structure are you going to put in to a 4 year $80 million deal that is going to scare away the Raptors? The Raptors are NOT a small market team (they currently rank 10th in valuation just below the multiple teams located in the biggest cities in the US and that's with them being the only team in the top 10 that doesn't have their own television network which would make them even more lucrative and valuable). What they are is a team that realizes they have a problem attracting free agents (because they are in Canada). They aren't the Bucks or the Thunder (both small market AND has trouble attracting free agents). Folks seem to consistently miss that. And what part of why is he so inefficient if he's actually got both Siakam AND Lowry on the team drawing defensive attention away from him are you consistently ignoring/minimizing? Yes, he's an excellent 3 point shooter who gambles on defense to make up for his slow foot speed and short length cause his team can cover for him. That defensive part won't work in NY even with Thibs and he'll be exposed as it takes years for a team to develop a defensive identity to cover for it. His lack of ability to create shots and the lack of stars to draw defenses away from him will also likely make him even less likely to get open looks at the basket and make him less efficient overall than he already is when he's going to be asked to create his own shot more and look to score more often in less ideal situations than he's seeing in Toronto. IF he's anywhere near Westbrook (what you are head scratchingly implying), he'd be easily worth 4 years $123 million and, as a result, impossible to get, cause the Raptors will realize that and give him more (cause they can).
I know the Raptors aren't a small market team, that doesn't mean anything in relation to them trying to preserve caproom for Giannis in 2021. If they don't have the space to sign him, then all of the plans they've been making the last few years have been for nothing, and those plans were built around the pre-Covid NBA where the salary cap would be increasing for 2021. We know it'll be flat or decline because of lost revenue, so we should be looking to take advantage of that. They still need to put a competitive team on the floor for 2020-2021, they have to make decisions on Marc Gasol and Ibaka, Gasol probably gets a vet minimum contract but Ibaka still has value around the league. Their backup bigs right now are Rondae Hollis Jefferson and Chris Boucher, does that sound attractive to a potential Giannis FA? They will resign one of those guys, probably Ibaka, which will cost them as well. They have to be extra careful with their caproom right now because of the uncertainty of the salary cap for 2021.
I'm not going to listen to the flaws in FVV's game or how he's not worth XYZ, and then look up and see the same person pushing for Russell Westbrook trade. Westbrook is literally one of the worst players to pair with our roster of non-shooters and someone who would get in the way of RJ's development, he's a low IQ player that got by with his otherworldly athleticism which is in decline, he can't shoot and is a terrible decision maker, so trade for him when he has a supermax? If you can't see how bad of a player Westbrook is now, and how awful of a fit he is with our roster I feel good in saying FVV is probably the right move since you dislike it so much.
Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks)
Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:47 pm
by WargamesX
What is the Derrick rose type of PG.
Fast, small, and attacking.
Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks)
Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:48 pm
by god shammgod
westbrook vs van vleet. sad for all involved.
Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks)
Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:50 pm
by GONYK
I can't think of one team, that is interested in winning, that Westbrook would be the ideal PG for.
Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks)
Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:30 pm
by DaGawd
Just put RJ at the point... Call it a day
Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks)
Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:36 pm
by GONYK
DaGawd wrote:Just put RJ at the point... Call it a day
Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks)
Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:37 pm
by Juco24
Conley and Frank.... one can hope
Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks)
Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:43 pm
by blueNorange
westbrook's athleticism is going away fast, and he never worked on his jumper so he's pretty much a negative on the court offensively.
Re: Ideal PG for Thibodeau (and therefore the Knicks)
Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:46 pm
by blueNorange
GONYK wrote:I can't think of one team, that is interested in winning, that Westbrook would be the ideal PG for.
it sucks because when he goes into the hall a lot of people will hate on him and only focus on the bad, while ignoring the seasons he put up.
