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2019-2020 College/Draft thread IX (Knicks own #8 pick, 11/18 DRAFT) - Picking 8 who do you NOT want???

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Who do you NOT want the knicks to pick at 8?

Killian Hayes
1
1%
Tyrese Haliburton
8
8%
Onyeka Okongwu
7
7%
Cole Anthony
20
19%
Kira Lewis
4
4%
Obi Toppin
23
22%
Devin Vassell
3
3%
Isaac Okoro
5
5%
Aleksej Pokuševski
25
24%
Aaron Nesmith
9
9%
 
Total votes: 105

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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread IX (Knicks own #8 pick, 11/18 DRAFT) - Picking 8 who do you NOT want??? 

Post#121 » by Angryfatboy » Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:48 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Angryfatboy wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:


You're asking a weird question, because there's only been 3 drafts since Brown was taken, and truth be told RJ falls into a similar category as Brown. A plus athlete with a good handle for his size who had a shakey shot and poor freethrow, but the intangibles to be better and dynamic are there. Is Okoro as good of a prospect as RJ, no, but there is some similarity in that if he can learn to shoot there is a lot to work with there, and while you see him getting to the line more than Vassell as a negative, I see it as a plus since he attacks the rim and draws contact.


I don't care about catch and shoot from a wing right now, you're stuck with an ideology that should be reserved for winning teams looking for their 3rd or 4th guy on a value contract. You do not take the type of wing Vassell is projected of being that early in the draft, you look for players who have the potential to be dynamic. You would think that people would watch these playoffs and learn from them, but apparently not, all the switching taking place now will lead to wings needing to be able to do more than just catch and shoot eventually. You never addressed the fact that none of the players who are 3 & D wings left in the playoffs were lottery picks, not a single one of them, all of these winning teams and the highest picked 3 & D guy is Gary Harris at 19, the rest are 2nd rounders or were undrafted :lol:

Mikal shot 43% this year as a starter at forward, so looks like there's correlation between freethrow shooting. He also shot better last year as a starting forward, he hit 35%, he is the quintessential 3 & D wing, he plays his best when you have him with starters who can make up for his lack of shot creation. This is my point with Vassell and why I don't want him, we still need more dynamic players, there will be a "Vassell" type guy in next years draft, because these types of players are now the lowest hanging fruit, they are the "rim runners" of the wing that every guy who doesn't have a ton of offensive skill can aspire to be. Taking a Mikal means you passed on a MPJ or Shai, and that will definitely be the case for a team taking Vassell, there will be someone taken after him that is more dynamic.


A wing that can shoot from anywhere on the floor and defend is to high for 8? In a weak draft? (Not that I think that’s all he’s going to be able to do) he’s shown he can pull up and score off the dribble. I think there’s more to explore there in his game.

To each his own I don’t feel a player who’s invisible on the Perimeter nor a playmaker is a home run pick either. I have more faith in vassell being a versatile perimeter shooter than okoro becoming Jalen brown or jimmy butler


The shooting may not be real, which is the point, you're left with a very limited player if it's not. The hope is he can make the 3 at a good clip, if he can't then you have Tony Snell :lol: I find it interesting that you did point out that Mikal who was a better shooter in college on a much higher volume still struggled to find his shot in the NBA, but think it's a given that Vassell is going to be a shooter right away? Why is there such certainty that he can actually shoot? Why is the floor for him to just assume he's Mikal Bridges?

This isn't just about Okoro, I like a few players more than Vassell. I would take Patrick Williams over him, showed more flashes on the ball, got to the line more despite playing less and already has an NBA body, plus he shot 83% from the line.


I still don’t see how the shooting wouldn’t be real he’s one of the best shooters in the draft. You won’t find any scouting report that’s going to point that out as weakness. Even his rookie season on even lower attempt rates he was still 41% Theres always been indication he can shoot. It’s not out of the Norm for a young player to not be excellent from the line if they aren’t accustomed to being there. And FT shooting is nothing that cant be improved

I brung up Mikal to show just because your free throw shooting is on point doesn’t make you some kind of sniper Which you seem to be indicating. it’s a good breeding ground to know where a player might stand as a shooter but it’s not going to completely define the players shooting ability. Bruce Bowen was a straight garbage free throw shooter still hitting 42% from behind the arc.

Okoro is 28% from 3, 67% from the line. If your questioning vassells shooting at 42% from 3 and 73% from the line on less free throw attempts you must have zero faith in okoro ever being a good shooter by your logic. and his hope is he becomes a ben Simmons level playmaker if your being drafted 8 and have no offensive game other than being a defensive bowing ball
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread IX (Knicks own #8 pick, 11/18 DRAFT) - Picking 8 who do you NOT want??? 

Post#122 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:59 pm

Angryfatboy wrote:
Okoro is 28% from 3, 67% from the line. If your questioning vassells shooting at 42% from 3 and 73% from the line on less free throw attempts you must have zero faith in okoro ever being a good shooter by your logic. and his hope is he becomes a ben Simmons level playmaker.



:banghead:


I'm not questioning Okoro's shot because I know it's broken and needs a lot of work, but there's other skills there that he has that would make him a better player if he developed a respectable shot. This is the whole point of potential, why is it hard to get man? It's literally one of the reasons we drafted RJ over DeAndre Hunter who was the better freethrow shooter and better three point shooter, you take the higher potential/dynamic guy in the lottery. Okoro isn't a RJ level prospect, but Vassell isn't some can't miss prospect either with a high floor, his floor is actually pretty scary.

And why are you so fixated on Okoro? I said I like Patrick Williams over Vassell as well, there are several guys I'd draft over Vassell, because I feel like there will be a Vassell going in the 2nd round, he'll just be an upperclassmen.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread IX (Knicks own #8 pick, 11/18 DRAFT) - Picking 8 who do you NOT want??? 

Post#123 » by Angryfatboy » Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:14 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Angryfatboy wrote:
Okoro is 28% from 3, 67% from the line. If your questioning vassells shooting at 42% from 3 and 73% from the line on less free throw attempts you must have zero faith in okoro ever being a good shooter by your logic. and his hope is he becomes a ben Simmons level playmaker.



:banghead:


I'm not questioning Okoro's shot because I know it's broken and needs a lot of work, but there's other skills there that he has that would make him a better player if he developed a respectable shot. This is the whole point of potential, why is it hard to get man? It's literally one of the reasons we drafted RJ over DeAndre Hunter who was the better freethrow shooter and better three point shooter, you take the higher potential/dynamic guy in the lottery. Okoro isn't a RJ level prospect, but Vassell isn't some can't miss prospect either with a high floor, his floor is actually pretty scary.

And why are you so fixated on Okoro? I said I like Patrick Williams over Vassell as well, there are several guys I'd draft over Vassell, because I feel like there will be a Vassell going in the 2nd round, he'll just be an upperclassmen.


RJ was 22/7/4 in college and showed he could step his game up when Zion was out which was intriguing he makes sense

Okoro has all the athleticism In the world with a nba body And put up 12/4/2 what is so infatuating about that? He should have similar production as RJ. He’s putting up identical numbers to vassell. Im skeptical on drafting somebody top 10 with no clear elite skill set on offense how often does it work out in the NBA?, his intangibles are locked behind a Shooting wall that he may or may not be able to climb over. Him being in the 94th percentile in isolation is the most intriguing aspect of his offense. Vassell vs okoro is a fine line of better athlete vs better shooter both are demons defensively.

And I get the better intangible stuff but at the same time I don’t see the hype as others I guess. I’m cool with him because I trust thibs to do well by him if anything. I keep bringing up okoro because that’s where the convo stem from lol

& I like the Patrick Williams kid more so as a 4 than a 3.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread IX (Knicks own #8 pick, 11/18 DRAFT) - Picking 8 who do you NOT want??? 

Post#124 » by Deeeez Knicks » Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:28 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:There have been guys viewed as mostly catch and shoot/shooters that have really panned out (Klay, Booker, Steph, Murray, etc).

All those guys really developed a lot and improved there games. Odds are low of finding a star like that, but def wouldn't rule anyone out just cause they are good shooters.



I can agree with this, however in the guys above, they were all better freethrow shooters and Curry/Klay took a crazy volume of threes for their eras, and Murray took a decent amount of threes off the dribble.

If Vassell were taking 6+ per game like Klay was at 19, and shooting 80% from the line I'd be more willing to accept the shot as real. He wasn't a high volume three point shooter, 3.5 per game for this day and age is kind of meh, Bol Bol was taking 3 a game at Oregon before he got hurt and shot a higher percent from the line than Vassell :lol:


Yea, there's some risk. He was on lower volume/min, but i think a lot of it is just the way they played and the system. Maybe if anything, he could have a little more upside with more of a role. Most players in this draft have some risk especially in our range. If anything Vassell's skill set looks pretty safe compared to everyone else to me.

He is def not on the level of Klay/Booker as a shooter...not many are. But think his shot looks pretty good overall especially as a catch and shoot. Def a useful skill to have.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread IX (Knicks own #8 pick, 11/18 DRAFT) - Picking 8 who do you NOT want??? 

Post#125 » by TheGreenArrow » Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:29 pm

If Hayes is gone by the time we pick I’m taking Haliburton.

He may not be a star(though I do think he has some upside to be one) he just fits perfectly and allows us to go in so many different directions.

Cp3
Haliburton
Rj
Bertans
Mitch

Or

Fvv
Haliburton
Rj
Gallo
Mitch

Or

Haliburton
Rj
J.harris
Gallo
Mitch

Or my dream scenario for the future

Cade
Haliburton
Rj
Bertans
Mitch

Haliburton at 8 is the way to go if we are truly being honest. He just fits.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread IX (Knicks own #8 pick, 11/18 DRAFT) - Picking 8 who do you NOT want??? 

Post#126 » by TheGreenArrow » Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:30 pm

Also and all rj backcourt????

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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread IX (Knicks own #8 pick, 11/18 DRAFT) - Picking 8 who do you NOT want??? 

Post#127 » by jvsimonetti0514 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:33 pm

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getting pumped for next seasons draft thread.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread IX (Knicks own #8 pick, 11/18 DRAFT) - Picking 8 who do you NOT want??? 

Post#128 » by F N 11 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:39 pm

TheGreenArrow wrote:Also and all rj backcourt????

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Could possible trade up for him with the second first rounder. Definitely not at 8.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread IX (Knicks own #8 pick, 11/18 DRAFT) - Picking 8 who do you NOT want??? 

Post#129 » by Angryfatboy » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:42 pm

TheGreenArrow wrote:Also and all rj backcourt????

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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread IX (Knicks own #8 pick, 11/18 DRAFT) - Picking 8 who do you NOT want??? 

Post#130 » by Oscirus » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:45 pm

moocow007 wrote:
Oscirus wrote:
moocow007 wrote:
Yeah Vassell's length and quickness is a differentiation point for me between him and the other "shooters". He leverages it well on both ends of the floor so I do seem the potential for him to increase his offensive versatility and production.

He didn't make the all rooke team cuz of ny bias, regardless, it's still stupid as hell to draft another player who's weakness is the same as our other young players. At that point, we're not building a team, we're just collecting potential and praying.


To be fair, this team has weaknesses up and down, left and right so theoretically we can use everything. The goal is to acquire young talent that you can develop and hope that at least a few of them can be your core or foundation going forward. It's not everyone you draft is what I think folks fall into a trap about.

Not everyone you draft will work out and some (a few, many, most depending on how competent your talent evaluators are) will be a waste (even high up in the lottery). That is why the notion of drafting for fit right now for me doesn't make sense since we have no idea who will turn out to be real or who will flub. You draft the the guy that you think will have the best NBA game and go from there. This is different than free agent signings which can be based on fit since you will know what most every free agent is and isn't can and can't be. This is also different if you already have your established cornderstone guys (like the Warriors) and fit makes more sense.

So guys looking to draft a 3 point shooter or a PG just because, on paper, it seems to be a need is failing to understand that there is a real chance that RJ Barrett isn't the future and Mitch Robinson never develops. Once that reality sets in, you can absolutely draft someone that might overlap their "hoped for" sphere of impact IF you really believe in that player. Just look at Boston. How many young wings did they draft or add to the team? A lot right? And they did so cause their front office believed that that wing was the best player regardless. And Boston has had no problem with Jaylen Brown and Jason Tatum being ideal at the same position right?

Bottom line: folks are too stuck on that picture where you have Robinson and Barrett and 3 question marks and trying to only fill those 3 question marks instead of seeing all 5 spots as question marks just maybe certain spots as less of a question. The reality is none of the guys on this team are proven guaranteed must have cornerstone types (not Barrett who justifiably didn't even make the all-NBA rookie 2nd team and not Robinson). So you should be drafting based on who you think has the best chance of being that regardless of position. Sure position matters if you think 2 players are close but if it's not close you go with the best talent.


Barrett's rookie team snub being justifiable is ridiculously laughable anti-ny rhetoric, but thats a conversation for another thread. Drafting worst versions of players with redundant skills isnt team building , neither is drafting the same position as a player you already have because you're afraid of what his contract might be next year. It's just trying to swing for the fences and hoping that your next franchise player comes along in the draft or in free agency while you fart around and cross your fingers and hope that he's the one. Unfortunately, if you do get lucky enough for your wish does come true, you fall into the same bad habits and fail to build around them correctly, thereby either wasting their prime or chasing them off.
In other words, building a treadmill team, cuz you're not patient enough to see what a player might actually wind up being because he doesnt give you instant gratification.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread IX (Knicks own #8 pick, 11/18 DRAFT) - Picking 8 who do you NOT want??? 

Post#131 » by stuporman » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:49 pm

Will RJ Hampton rally just be the delux version of Alonzo Trier? Or is his game significantly more well rounded?

I like Trier but sure he isn't a PG yet he is instant bench scoring and think it was silly to release him for who exactly?
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread IX (Knicks own #8 pick, 11/18 DRAFT) - Picking 8 who do you NOT want??? 

Post#132 » by RHODEY » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:53 pm

stuporman wrote:Is RJ Hampton the delux version of Alonzo Trier? Or is his game significantly more well rounded?

I like Trier but sure he isn't a PG yet he is instant bench scoring and think it was silly to release him for who exactly?


When it comes to ISO play I think Hampton is more of a raw athlete, but his raw tools are treading elite territory - I believe.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread IX (Knicks own #8 pick, 11/18 DRAFT) - Picking 8 who do you NOT want??? 

Post#133 » by robillionaire » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:56 pm

F N 11 wrote:
TheGreenArrow wrote:Also and all rj backcourt????

Read on Twitter

Could possible trade up for him with the second first rounder. Definitely not at 8.


article says "as a late lottery pick" so I imagine there'd have to be some sort of trade scenario in that. anyway i'm down
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread IX (Knicks own #8 pick, 11/18 DRAFT) - Picking 8 who do you NOT want??? 

Post#135 » by stuporman » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:04 pm

RHODEY wrote:
stuporman wrote:Is RJ Hampton the delux version of Alonzo Trier? Or is his game significantly more well rounded?

I like Trier but sure he isn't a PG yet he is instant bench scoring and think it was silly to release him for who exactly?


hen it comes to ISO play I think Hampton is more raw, but his raw tools are treading elite territory - I believe.


RJ is significantly younger than Zo at their draft time so he has a couple years to develop before he is at the same age as Zo in comparison of equals I guess.

Although, I'm wondering how much more conducive to passing the ball is RJ because I guess Zo's issue in the Knick's eyes was his unwillingness to pass or his inability to facilitate more.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread IX (Knicks own #8 pick, 11/18 DRAFT) - Picking 8 who do you NOT want??? 

Post#136 » by RHODEY » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:16 pm

stuporman wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
stuporman wrote:Is RJ Hampton the delux version of Alonzo Trier? Or is his game significantly more well rounded?

I like Trier but sure he isn't a PG yet he is instant bench scoring and think it was silly to release him for who exactly?


hen it comes to ISO play I think Hampton is more raw, but his raw tools are treading elite territory - I believe.


RJ is significantly younger than Zo at their draft time so he has a couple years to develop before he is at the same age as Zo in comparison of equals I guess.

Although, I'm wondering how much more conducive to passing the ball is RJ because I guess Zo's issue in the Knick's eyes was his unwillingness to pass or his inability to facilitate more.


Not sure of his passing potential. I think of him as a bigger more vertical Leandro Barbaso. ultra quick downhill slasher type. he supposedly has a good midrange jumper too....


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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread IX (Knicks own #8 pick, 11/18 DRAFT) - Picking 8 who do you NOT want??? 

Post#137 » by TheGreenArrow » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:27 pm

RHODEY wrote:
stuporman wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
hen it comes to ISO play I think Hampton is more raw, but his raw tools are treading elite territory - I believe.


RJ is significantly younger than Zo at their draft time so he has a couple years to develop before he is at the same age as Zo in comparison of equals I guess.

Although, I'm wondering how much more conducive to passing the ball is RJ because I guess Zo's issue in the Knick's eyes was his unwillingness to pass or his inability to facilitate more.


Not sure of his passing potential. I think of him as a bigger more vertical Leandro Barbaso. ultra quick downhill slasher type. he supposedly has a good midrange jumper too....




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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread IX (Knicks own #8 pick, 11/18 DRAFT) - Picking 8 who do you NOT want??? 

Post#138 » by moocow007 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:56 pm

TheGreenArrow wrote:Also and all rj backcourt????

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Hampton as a 6'6", 6'7" athletic PG would be potentially great. Problem? I honestly do not see a PG, at least not at the NBA level. Hampton has loose handles and does not possess great ball control. The last guy I said this about was Kris Dunn who some folks on this board was glowing over as a potential PG of the future for the Knicks if they somehow managed to get into a position to draft him.

You may be able to get by as a PG with subpar handles in HS. You can probably do that in college. You can probably live with that in New Zealand (where Hampton played). But you simply cannot live with that in the NBA especially if you don't have a scorer skill and mind set which Hampton does not.

Other than being hyped in HS, athletic and kinda lengthy (he's got short arms...6'7" wingspan for a 6'7"player isn't good at all) though which nullifies some of that "nice height for a PG" bit) that doesn't really handle the ball cleanly, that can't really shoot from outside, that really can't create his own shot consistently and that is still suspect defensively and from a physicality standpoint.

If you compare him to LaMelo Ball, Ball not only played in the more competitive league (Australia) against better competition, he also started and carried the load for the IHawks as their lead guy. Hampton, despite playing the weaker league (New Zealand pro ball) and against worse competition, was more of a secondary player despite supposedly being a PG. Sure the team composition and coaching view point mattered but if Hampton really was that skilled I would think he'd have played more and been given a bigger role. And Ballis younger than Hampton. No Hampton isn't Ball but he also should have shown more than he did.

Even his highlight vids are underwhelming to be quite honest and it's hard to make highlight reels blah.

Does he have potential? Sure. But is it because of the HS hype and the mystery generated by Covid or is it really worthwhile potential? I can't honesty picture his role in the NBA. As a dunker? He's not that great and his frame is suspect against NBA competition. He's an ok but inconsistent defender. He doesn't shoot well, he can't really create his own shot off the dribble. Honestly, closest comp is a slower Dante Exum, a guy that may physically look real interesting and comes with hype but that can't shoot and can't create off the dribble due to loose handles and ho hum intensity.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread IX (Knicks own #8 pick, 11/18 DRAFT) - Picking 8 who do you NOT want??? 

Post#139 » by Infinitimind » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:01 pm

Angryfatboy wrote:
robillionaire wrote:
Angryfatboy wrote:Vassells shot Chart

Image

Okoros shot chart

Image

Okoro is the definition of a what if type of player. He has the talent to be great but that talent has a black cloud hanging over it because of how far off of a shooter he is.

shooting is easy to fix? well that comes down to the player

Image

Still waiting on dennis, kevin knox, ntilkina.


or vassell could pull a mikal and shoot 32% against nba defenses and then you'd not really left with much upside at all with him either because he can't get to the rim. okoro can still bully ball his way to the rim and play d. if nothing else he reminds me of RJ but with better defense

i figured i couldn't be the only one to think this so i googled the names and sure enough some hawks fan already did the leg work
https://twunroll.com/article/1304475839942270976


RJ and Randle bullying the paint was great lets do it again and add another play who plays the same way and has no shot

Image

Okoro on the knicks is a awful fit and unless you believe hes going to be the type of player that is a main option for the team i dont see the point. Youll never know what you have in RJ and youll never know what you have in okoro trying to develop overlapping playstyles. okoro belongs on a team like the hawks where spacing exists and defense is needed

\

What is all the hate with Okoro, Rj can’t shoot and we love his great upside.I Understand the question about fit between him and Rj. But at the 8th pick you have to take the best player available. And to me that Okoro, elite defense, elite athleticism, underrated court vision, and by all accounts a tremendous working. If Okoro had a jumpshot he would be the number one pick in the draft. We are not completing for anything, we are building from the ground up.
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Re: 2019-2020 College/Draft thread IX (Knicks own #8 pick, 11/18 DRAFT) - Picking 8 who do you NOT want??? 

Post#140 » by stuporman » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:06 pm

RHODEY wrote:
stuporman wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
hen it comes to ISO play I think Hampton is more raw, but his raw tools are treading elite territory - I believe.


RJ is significantly younger than Zo at their draft time so he has a couple years to develop before he is at the same age as Zo in comparison of equals I guess.

Although, I'm wondering how much more conducive to passing the ball is RJ because I guess Zo's issue in the Knick's eyes was his unwillingness to pass or his inability to facilitate more.


Not sure of his passing potential. I think of him as a bigger more vertical Leandro Barbaso. ultra quick downhill slasher type. he supposedly has a good midrange jumper too....




I've watched a bunch of video on him and he just looks like a suped up version of Zo, it's astonishing how much they look alike with their game, even in the body type, movement and mannerisms.

Could RJ be more of a facilitator? Will he also be lacking on the defensive energy side of the court? Will he actually turn into enough of a spot up threat to work well off ball?

If he's there at 27, sure, it's hard to pass up that talent so far out of the lottery but the real question for the Knicks brass is he a target at 8?
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