2019-2020 College/Draft thread 11 (Knicks own #8 pick, 11/18 DRAFT)

[moocow007]

I mean he was our #3 pick lol. You definitely should try to build around him unless he shows completely obvious signs that he’s a bust. I’d think most teams would try to build around their top 5 picks at least for the first 2-4 seasons of there career

The Knicks can also look to draft the best player available no? Don't you think playing with another talented young player (the vest talent they can get at 8) will also help Barrett? Barrett makes plays. Its one of his skills. Font you think that making plays would be easier the more talent he has around him?

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Definitely. RJs gunna have to learn how to play with other talented ball handlers. But until you get one of those you should still try and build the team around him.

Knicks should still look to draft BPA. If the FO does its job in FA or via trade. I don’t really think any rookie we draft will really clash with RJ

And that is part of my point. You can still draft anyone in this draft and end up with both best talent and still have that player fit...especially long term.

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[moocow007]

Who are all these bad fits with RJ? Okoro and that’s it. Most, if not all the guys were looking at will play fine with him. For all we know RJ figured out his jumper in the last 7 months and this all becomes a moot point.

Apparently anyone that might want to shoot the ball a lot it appears. Cause RJ apparently will be taking 30 shots a game or setting up shots for DSJr, Knox, Frank, etc...

Honestly the Knicks offense was brutal cause they had no one that can create shots for others or for themselves effectively. So shot creators would be the most useful type of player for this team.

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[Clyde_Style]

thread is getting crazy lol

I just saw the previous pages, seems kind of Fugazi to me too. Nobody knows RJ's ceiling yet, but people are already laying down authoritative statements about it. How about we give him a season with actual professional tutelage first?

[moocow007]

thread is getting crazy lol

I just saw the previous pages, seems kind of Fugazi to me too. Nobody knows RJ's ceiling yet, but people are already laying down authoritative statements about it. How about we give him a season with actual professional tutelage first?

Before we anoint him the cornerstone of this team and start building around him? I agree.

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[stuporman]

Even within the 'star' structure of a team there needs to be a synergy between them that is supported by skills and the construction of the rest of the team.

So there's a 'with' dynamic at the top of the line up that often is overlooked because it can be difficult to get two or three elite players together at one time anyway. Undoubtedly there are some of these FOs and fans that may feel like they can't quibble over personalities but this sure can be quite important.

Not just personalities either but if thier games don't match in skills, roles and such the chemistry won't be tight enough to win in this league. It's simultaneously a demanding and delicate thing to accomplish. Knicks fans that lived through the awkward pairing of Melo and Amar'e understand this should not be taken for granted.

So the talk of build with and around is all subjective opinion because this or that player is or isn't according to each of our perspective.

[HEZI]

We've figured it out. All we have to do is just add talent. We got it folks we figured it out. Just add talent. Yo why didn't anybody ever figure this out before. The answer is just add talent. We solved the broken Knicks issues, just.add.talent.

We did it baby!

We've figured it out. All we have to do is just add fit. We got it folks we figured it out. Just add guys that fit. Yo why didn't anybody ever figure this out before. The answer is just add players that fit. We solved the broken Knick...

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Seeing as how I want talent that fits and not ignoring one for the other I guess i win either way lmao

[NoDopeOnSundays]

So tell me what the winning lotto numbers for tomorrow lotto is right now. That is the argument you kept using to justify why Barrett is worth not focusing on adding talent and instead start building around.

As far as Bagley goes, if you ask Kings fans they'd likely react the same way you did with Barrett. But ok, even if we scratch Bagley, what about the other guys? Umm.umm...um? Well the other guys will get worse or are overrated? Is that the argument?




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What does the lottery have to do with anything? You were asked to take a look at the rookie numbers of star players around the league, I'll save you some time.

RJ


Beal


Jimmy


Ingram


J. Murray


CJ


Booker




Please let me know how RJ is an outlier among this group, what is it about RJ that won't let him develop like these guys have. You would have been advocating not to build around any of these guys if they were Knicks, because they all had their warts. For instance, Booker shot 41% and 30% from three when he started.

1. All of those teams had more talent at the time those players were drafted.
2. None of those teams at the time announced they are planning to build around that player.
3. All of those teams continued focusing on adding talent until those guys proved they were cornerstone types.

Really not sure how to explain my stance anymore.

I'm not saying Barrett is not a very food young player. Nor am I saying he can't become what you guys are saying he can. None if the 3 things I'm arguing has anything to do with either things that I think you guys are getting defensive about.

IMHO the Knicks are not in any position to do anything else than trying to draft the guy that will turn out to be the best NBA talent regardless of what position he plays.

Also the notion that a low talent team that has maybe 2 guys that will be around long term (one of whom that plays any of 3 positions) should be looking for fit is a stretch.

Thats my opinion of course and we know about opinions.

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1. The 26-56 Lakers and 23-59 Suns were more talented? Really? RJ is right in line with what other cornerstone players did their rookie years, it's not like he went out there and performed like Kris Dunn or Anthony Bennett.

2. They didn't need to announce it, the Suns made it pretty clear that they were building around Booker, same with the Wiz and Beal, he was a cornerstone piece for them. This was about cornerstone pieces too by the way.

3. I think it's pretty obvious the Knicks plan on adding more talent to the roster, what gives you the idea that they aren't?


Ever stop and think that RJ made a lot of progress since the season ended in March and the Knicks got a look at him in the OTAs and have decided to build around him. The Knicks should think about fit, because that actually matters, how could you not get that lesson from this season, between us and the Sixers (Horford & Embiid). Fit matters, look at Embiid and Simmons, they can't play together, if they had taken Jalen Brown or Ingram who knows how they would look today. They also took BPA with Markelle Fultz, who everyone was saying was BPA at the time, fit would have been taking Tatum because they needed wing scoring not a ball dominant PG.

[Clyde_Style]

thread is getting crazy lol

I just saw the previous pages, seems kind of Fugazi to me too. Nobody knows RJ's ceiling yet, but people are already laying down authoritative statements about it. How about we give him a season with actual professional tutelage first?

Before we anoint him the cornerstone of this team and start building around him? I agree.

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Nobody annointed him unless I missed something. He was the # 3 pick, is already a legit player with a pretty broad skillset, is quite young, has great pedigree. Whether he becomes a star is unknown. I think he will, but I'm not saying I know that, thus I wouldn't annoint him anything yet

but building around him means more than whether or not he is a star. It means the club is finally committing to youth and trying to assemble rosters that have chemistry and are well-suited to playing with each other.

And that's something you should do whether (a) one of those players blossom into a star or (b) a star arrives and you adjust the roster accordingly

You start with (a) and that's the point of adapting the roster to accomodate RJ. It means they will compete sooner and if he is not all that then they'll adjust accordingly

It's not like they have the luxury of waiting until somebody is a superstar in a Knicks uniform to proceed with roster construction so I don't see what the fuss is about. They are approaching this correctly IMO

[NYKnickerbocker]

thread is getting crazy lol

I just saw the previous pages, seems kind of Fugazi to me too. Nobody knows RJ's ceiling yet, but people are already laying down authoritative statements about it. How about we give him a season with actual professional tutelage first?

Before we anoint him the cornerstone of this team and start building around him? I agree.

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RJ was a top 5 pick. I think those guys are automatically cornerstones their first 1-3 seasons until they prove otherwise. RJ at least to me hasn’t proven otherwise yet. Now that doesn’t mean he’s untouchable in trades. But I think you should try crafting a team with him in your head for at least 2-3 seasons. And if you draft a more talented guy, RJ can still be considered a corner stone

Jaylen brown was still considered a corner stone even tho Tatum came on the scene hotter than him at first

[robillionaire]

I just saw the previous pages, seems kind of Fugazi to me too. Nobody knows RJ's ceiling yet, but people are already laying down authoritative statements about it. How about we give him a season with actual professional tutelage first?

Before we anoint him the cornerstone of this team and start building around him? I agree.

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RJ was a top 5 pick. I think those guys are automatically cornerstones there first 1-3 seasons until they prove otherwise. RJ at least to me hasn’t proven otherwise yet. Now that doesn’t mean he’s untouchable in trades. But I think you should try crafting a team with him in your head for at least 2-3 seasons. And if you draft a more talented guy, RJ can still be considered a corner stone

Jaylen brown was still considered a corner stone even tho Tatum came on the scene hotter than him at first

I say this. Don't trade him. Sign free agents with team fit in mind. But I would still draft the BPA regardless of fit with him

[NYKnickerbocker]

People talk bout RJ as if he was out there looking like Jarrett culver most the season. He came on really well in the second half. Probably gets his % to better looking numbers if there’s no COVID pause. I’m fully on board the Rj is a stud train

[knickstape4ever]

Who are all these bad fits with RJ? Okoro and that’s it. Most, if not all the guys were looking at will play fine with him. For all we know RJ figured out his jumper in the last 7 months and this all becomes a moot point.

Apparently anyone that might want to shoot the ball a lot it appears. Cause RJ apparently will be taking 30 shots a game or setting up shots for DSJr, Knox, Frank, etc...

Honestly the Knicks offense was brutal cause they had no one that can create shots for others or for themselves effectively. So shot creators would be the most useful type of player for this team.

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lol, you're the best....

I dont think anyone on here is saying/has said that we shouldn't draft a player who shoots a lot, weird that that's the conclusion you've drawn....

in fact, you know you I actually really like....Aaron Nesmith and if they drafted him, you know what I'd tell him: shoot the ball

you're talking about # of shots and scoring/offense yet you've advocated we take Okongwu

[HEZI]

I just saw the previous pages, seems kind of Fugazi to me too. Nobody knows RJ's ceiling yet, but people are already laying down authoritative statements about it. How about we give him a season with actual professional tutelage first?

Before we anoint him the cornerstone of this team and start building around him? I agree.

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Nobody annointed him unless I missed something. He was the # 3 pick, is already a legit player with a pretty broad skillset, is quite young, has great pedigree. Whether he becomes a star is unknown. I think he will, but I'm not saying I know that, thus I wouldn't annoint him anything yet

but building around him means more than whether or not he is a star. It means the club is finally committing to youth and trying to assemble rosters that have chemistry and are well-suited to playing with each other.

And that's something you should do whether (a) one of those players blossom into a star or (b) a star arrives and you adjust the roster accordingly

You start with (a) and that's the point of adapting the roster to accomodate RJ. It means they will compete sooner and if he is not all that then they'll adjust accordingly

It's not like they have the luxury of waiting until somebody is a superstar in a Knicks uniform to proceed with roster construction so I don't see what the fuss is about. They are approaching this correctly IMO

This! 100%

[Guano]

This talk of building around RJ is silly - because a team needs at least a pair of stars to compete. So take Okoro and see if they can hit on two franchise players.

FOH with taking role players to help develop RJ.

[NYKnickerbocker]

This talk of building around RJ is silly - because a team needs at least a pair of stars to compete. So take Okoro and see if they can hit on two franchise players.

FOH with taking role players to help develop RJ.

you can still draft okoro who looks less skilled offensively than RJ and still build around RJ through trades and FA.

[Knicksfan1992]

i actually wanted to draft him when everyone here was telling me he's the next timmy. i just think it's early for the build around talk.

The hate for RJ was so real around here I remember going to bat for him more than most and it feels like the people who supported him have to tell the other ones to settle down now...

I'm confused. You know you can support drafting him at 3 and still not think he's good enough to justify starting to build around right? One doesn't exclude the other. Just because you don't think he's a cornerstone player doesn't mean you hate him.

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You're misunderstanding what i'm saying. I WANTED RJ at 3. I had a big back and forth with the man now known as "The Scout" about it in our pm's He eventually came around to it late in the process I think, but I don't wnat to misrepresent him... Hell I would have wanted him at 2 tbh even if that is wrong now in hindsight.

However, I feel like the same people who were clamoring to pick Culver or whomever are now hyping up RJ to the point where they think he is the guy we have to build around. I admittedly am straw-manning a bit here but you get the point I love RJ and i'm one of the biggest homers here but he is far from a sure thing based on what he's shown in college and in his rookie year. The Knicks still need high level talent and if that means drafting a guy who doesn't necessarily 100% accentuate RJ's game then so be it.

And before people start yapping about how the Sixers did the same thing and screwed themselves... drafting redundant bigs is way different than drafting wings with similar skillsets. You can get by with having a couple wings who may not be the greatest shooters if you have shooting elsewhere because naturally wings are way more versatile defensively (as long as they don't completely suck on that end) so you can actually play them together and survive in some aspects unlike playing 2 true bigs in the modern game. There's probably a little more hope that you can turn RJ and Okoro, for example, into decent shooters than there was that you can turn all of Embiid, Noel and Jah into decent ones

Also with the amount of cap space the Knicks have they can find shooting and "fit" players on the market and with their later picks. The benefit of having multiple picks is being able to actually take some swings with them knowing you can take "safe" guys with the others. I don't see the point n having all this draft capital if you're just going to draft low ceiling guys with your most premium picks. That's why I'm anti Vassell. Not because i necessarily hate the player, but he just doesn't make sense for the stage the Knicks are in right now. Even if they are trending more towards win-now I guarantee you Okoro is more intriguing as a trade piece to most of the NBA than Vassell is.. That has to be a consideration for Leon. If it's not i'd be worried.

Not that all that was directed at you Moo but I felt like I had to get those thoughts out there

[HarthorneWingo]

thread is getting crazy lol

I just saw the previous pages, seems kind of Fugazi to me too. Nobody knows RJ's ceiling yet, but people are already laying down authoritative statements about it. How about we give him a season with actual professional tutelage first?

But you'd have to admit that Mitch is more valuable to team than RJ.

[HarthorneWingo]

The hate for RJ was so real around here I remember going to bat for him more than most and it feels like the people who supported him have to tell the other ones to settle down now...

I'm confused. You know you can support drafting him at 3 and still not think he's good enough to justify starting to build around right? One doesn't exclude the other. Just because you don't think he's a cornerstone player doesn't mean you hate him.

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You're misunderstanding what i'm saying. I WANTED RJ at 3. I had a big back and forth with the man now known as "The Scout" about it in our pm's He eventually came around to it late in the process I think, but I don't wnat to misrepresent him... Hell I would have wanted him at 2 tbh even if that is wrong now in hindsight.

However, I feel like the same people who were clamoring to pick Culver or whomever are now hyping up RJ to the point where they think he is the guy we have to build around. I admittedly am straw-manning a bit here but you get the point I love RJ and i'm one of the biggest homers here but he is far from a sure thing based on what he's shown in college and in his rookie year. The Knicks still need high level talent and if that means drafting a guy who doesn't necessarily 100% accentuate RJ's game then so be it.

And before people start yapping about how the Sixers did the same thing and screwed themselves... drafting redundant bigs is way different than drafting wings with similar skillsets. You can get by with having a couple wings who may not be the greatest shooters if you have shooting elsewhere because naturally wings are way more versatile defensively (as long as they don't completely suck on that end) so you can actually play them together and survive in some aspects unlike playing 2 true bigs in the modern game. There's probably a little more hope that you can turn RJ and Okoro, for example, into decent shooters than there was that you can turn all of Embiid, Noel and Jah into decent ones

Also with the amount of cap space the Knicks have they can find shooting and "fit" players on the market and with their later picks. The benefit of having multiple picks is being able to actually take some swings with them knowing you can take "safe" guys with the others. I don't see the point n having all this draft capital if you're just going to draft low ceiling guys with your most premium picks. That's why I'm anti Vassell. Not because i necessarily hate the player, but he just doesn't make sense for the stage the Knicks are in right now. Even if they are trending more towards win-now I guarantee you Okoro is more intriguing as a trade piece to most of the NBA than Vassell is.. That has to be a consideration for Leon. If it's not i'd be worried.

Not that all that was directed at you Moo but I felt like I had to get those thoughts out there

RJ is definitely a 3.

[thebuzzardman]

I'm going outside the box with my wish the Knicks draft the worst available player. Ill fitting if possible.

[thebuzzardman]

I'm confused. You know you can support drafting him at 3 and still not think he's good enough to justify starting to build around right? One doesn't exclude the other. Just because you don't think he's a cornerstone player doesn't mean you hate him.

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You're misunderstanding what i'm saying. I WANTED RJ at 3. I had a big back and forth with the man now known as "The Scout" about it in our pm's He eventually came around to it late in the process I think, but I don't wnat to misrepresent him... Hell I would have wanted him at 2 tbh even if that is wrong now in hindsight.

However, I feel like the same people who were clamoring to pick Culver or whomever are now hyping up RJ to the point where they think he is the guy we have to build around. I admittedly am straw-manning a bit here but you get the point I love RJ and i'm one of the biggest homers here but he is far from a sure thing based on what he's shown in college and in his rookie year. The Knicks still need high level talent and if that means drafting a guy who doesn't necessarily 100% accentuate RJ's game then so be it.

And before people start yapping about how the Sixers did the same thing and screwed themselves... drafting redundant bigs is way different than drafting wings with similar skillsets. You can get by with having a couple wings who may not be the greatest shooters if you have shooting elsewhere because naturally wings are way more versatile defensively (as long as they don't completely suck on that end) so you can actually play them together and survive in some aspects unlike playing 2 true bigs in the modern game. There's probably a little more hope that you can turn RJ and Okoro, for example, into decent shooters than there was that you can turn all of Embiid, Noel and Jah into decent ones

Also with the amount of cap space the Knicks have they can find shooting and "fit" players on the market and with their later picks. The benefit of having multiple picks is being able to actually take some swings with them knowing you can take "safe" guys with the others. I don't see the point n having all this draft capital if you're just going to draft low ceiling guys with your most premium picks. That's why I'm anti Vassell. Not because i necessarily hate the player, but he just doesn't make sense for the stage the Knicks are in right now. Even if they are trending more towards win-now I guarantee you Okoro is more intriguing as a trade piece to most of the NBA than Vassell is.. That has to be a consideration for Leon. If it's not i'd be worried.

Not that all that was directed at you Moo but I felt like I had to get those thoughts out there

RJ is definitely a 3.

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