ImageImageImageImageImage

Exactly what type of package would it take to get Westbrook?

Moderators: mpharris36, NoLayupRule, King of Canada, GONYK, K-DOT, Deeeez Knicks, Capn'O, Thugger HBC, j4remi, Jeff Van Gully, mrpoetryNmotion

User avatar
iLLmatic860
Analyst
Posts: 3,398
And1: 4,586
Joined: Jan 23, 2013
Location: 860 CT
     

Re: Exactly what type of package would it take to get Westbrook? 

Post#61 » by iLLmatic860 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:39 pm

robillionaire wrote:The Knicks should have all the bargaining power. They already revealed that they want to rebuild which is why they traded Covington for picks. Harden has demanded a trade. The only other team people thought might even entertain the thought was the Hornets and they drafted LaMelo. They can either trade him here or F up their rebuild and have a malcontent who demanded a trade on their team. The knicks on the other hand could go in plenty of other directions to fill the need at PG.

There was a Wizards Wall for Westbrook rumor that shams dropped

Wizards will also be willing to trade picks or even a young player to get outta Walls contract

The question is would Houston be willing to take Wall contract. Idk
User avatar
robillionaire
RealGM
Posts: 15,225
And1: 16,313
Joined: Jul 12, 2015
Location: Manhattan
     

Re: Exactly what type of package would it take to get Westbrook? 

Post#62 » by robillionaire » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:41 pm

iLLmatic860 wrote:
robillionaire wrote:The Knicks should have all the bargaining power. They already revealed that they want to rebuild which is why they traded Covington for picks. Harden has demanded a trade. The only other team people thought might even entertain the thought was the Hornets and they drafted LaMelo. They can either trade him here or F up their rebuild and have a malcontent who demanded a trade on their team. The knicks on the other hand could go in plenty of other directions to fill the need at PG.

There was a Wizards Wall for Westbrook rumor that shams dropped

Wizards will also be willing to trade picks or even a young player to get outta Walls contract

The question is would Houston be willing to take Wall contract. Idk


Then they're in cap hell for 3 years. If they do our deal they can have cap space as soon as next summer. Just depends on which they value more, clearing cap space or getting the extra picks the Wizards would include and having the Wall albatross for 3 years
KnixinSix
Pro Prospect
Posts: 870
And1: 352
Joined: Jul 27, 2013

Re: Exactly what type of package would it take to get Westbrook? 

Post#63 » by KnixinSix » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:59 pm

GONYK wrote:
KnixinSix wrote:
seren wrote:
That is something he needs to prove. Healthy Westbrook is great. You are right. It might be the fact that he got COVID. However, we have no idea long term implications of COVID. If he comes back and shows he is doing just fine, by all means let's go after him. If the playoffs Westbrook is what we will get, it will be a long three years.


Give me this next year under defensive minded Thibs and I think we return to relevancy and possibly more in the East:

SF:RJ
PF:Wood/Toppin
C:Mitch
SG:Westbrook
PG:FVV/Quickly


How are we getting Westbrook, Wood, and FVV?


We have 40+ mill of cap space now. You are exchanging 43 mill (Westbrook) for about 36-37 mill going back out. We will be left with 35 mill ish of space. Perhaps we get both say... VV for 20 ish and Wood for 15.
For I am unashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe. For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last. -Romans 1:16-17
KnixinSix
Pro Prospect
Posts: 870
And1: 352
Joined: Jul 27, 2013

Re: Exactly what type of package would it take to get Westbrook? 

Post#64 » by KnixinSix » Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:04 pm

BrOnXKing1 wrote:
King of Canada wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:Pass unless they give us a boat load of picks. It would be a colossal mistake


Considering what Philly has been doing - attaching picks to Horford and even Richardson (#36), the market certainly dictates they attach picks to move him.


Come on, Horford is completely washed up. Westbrook averaged 27/8/7 last season and that was because his role was as a scorer. I would tell him to stop shooting 3's and get back to being more of a passer like he was with Okc


Westbrook and a strategic FA make us relevant again under Thibs.
For I am unashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe. For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last. -Romans 1:16-17
User avatar
GONYK
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 61,430
And1: 32,198
Joined: Jun 27, 2003
Location: Frankie N Baby
   

Re: Exactly what type of package would it take to get Westbrook? 

Post#65 » by GONYK » Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:07 pm

KnixinSix wrote:
GONYK wrote:
KnixinSix wrote:
Give me this next year under defensive minded Thibs and I think we return to relevancy and possibly more in the East:

SF:RJ
PF:Wood/Toppin
C:Mitch
SG:Westbrook
PG:FVV/Quickly


How are we getting Westbrook, Wood, and FVV?


We have 40+ mill of cap space now. You are exchanging 43 mill (Westbrook) for about 36-37 mill going back out. We will be left with 35 mill ish of space. Perhaps we get both say... VV for 20 ish and Wood for 15.


We aren't sending that much salary back unless we are throwing in assets for no reason
KnixinSix
Pro Prospect
Posts: 870
And1: 352
Joined: Jul 27, 2013

Re: Exactly what type of package would it take to get Westbrook? 

Post#66 » by KnixinSix » Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:22 pm

Defense and DAWGS....

SF:RJ/Hayward/Bullock
PF:Hayward/Toppin
C:Mitch
SG:Bullock/RJ/Westbrook
PG:Westbrook/Quickly
For I am unashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe. For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last. -Romans 1:16-17
User avatar
vallen
RealGM
Posts: 10,011
And1: 2,267
Joined: Jan 31, 2005
       

Re: Exactly what type of package would it take to get Westbrook? 

Post#67 » by vallen » Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:32 pm

Randle for Westbrook and at least 3 future unprotected first round pic's.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take
KnixinSix
Pro Prospect
Posts: 870
And1: 352
Joined: Jul 27, 2013

Re: Exactly what type of package would it take to get Westbrook? 

Post#68 » by KnixinSix » Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:35 pm

Hayward

Plays defense and can gaurd multiple positions
Shot 38% from 3
Plays very well not being the primary option (could fit well with Westbrook)

Connections with the team:

One strong tie between the Knicks and Gordon Hayward: new NYK associate head coach Johnnie Bryant, the former Jazz assistant who oversaw Hayward's development in Utah.

We have a CAA guy, a Kenny Payne guy and now it's the turn for the Johnnie Bryant guy. Also Taj maybe coming back too, so Thibs got another one of his guys.
For I am unashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe. For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last. -Romans 1:16-17
User avatar
Deeeez Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 33,507
And1: 20,310
Joined: Nov 12, 2004
Location: Bar stool

Re: Exactly what type of package would it take to get Westbrook? 

Post#69 » by Deeeez Knicks » Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:06 pm

moocow007 wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:I just don't have a lot of confidence that a G like Westbrook who relies so much on athletiscm will age well. There are def signs of decline. Sometimes there can be a steep cliff of decline. We have seen that very often here. Knicks have been like a retirement community the last 20 years.

Melo, Amare, Felton, Francis, Marbury, Houston, LJ, Glenn Rice, Penny, Noah, Lee, Baron Davis, Kidd, Billups, Camby, Kmart, Sheed, Metta World Peace, Bibby, etc, etc.


Counter argument to that though is that if you could be guaranteed that Westbrook would be peak or near peak for the duration of his 3 year contract then his value would be higher. Even if you took the Westbrook of this past season and told a team that's the guy you'd get for the next 3 years, that's some pretty serious value. Still doesn't mean you don't need to be able to build a team around him (still need that) but it's a whole lot easier when you have a top talent on the roster than if you did not.

Some of those guys were too long in the tooth but there were some very talented players (Melo, Marbury, Houston and Camby for example) that came to the Knicks in their prime and spent most of their time here playing in their prime. They weren't the problem (even though folks seem to want to say they were).

Rather, the problem was the front offices at the time not being able to build a good enough team around any of those guys. We say what a well built team could do with Carmelo Anthony as the centerpiece (which so happened to be the one season that Steve Mills was not at MSG mucking things up). What the front office failed to do was to figure out a way to continue to build teams like that while Anthony was here (or even build a better team than that 2013 team). Not like that 2013 team had a lot of talent so the notion that it was not replicable is doubtful.


True. But to me it looks like he is already past his peak. He is not the same as MVP Westbrook. Still a really good player right now. But think the signs are there and he can continue to slip. I dont want to count him out and Westbrook is an athletic freak so you never know. Just seems like an unnecessary risk for the Knicks to take. The risk def exists. I understand all moves have risks, but this one would have a huge cost and be very difficult to erase. Doesnt line up with the reward imo.

Then throw in that the Knicks have an ill-fitting roster with a highly demanding coach with a bad history of wearing players out...plus in a city/team that will put a ton of pressure and responsibility on his shoulders....just see this one ending badly again.
Mavs
C: Maxi Kleber | Grant Williams| Kurucs
F: Giannis | House | Okpala
F: Mikal Bridges | E' Moore | Josh Hall
SG: Jrue Holiday[ | Derrick White | CJ Elleby
PG: Jokic | Alex Caruso | Skylar Mays
Stash
Didi
Milos
User avatar
Phish Tank
RealGM
Posts: 17,298
And1: 10,051
Joined: Nov 09, 2004
Location: Your Timepiece
   

Re: Exactly what type of package would it take to get Westbrook? 

Post#70 » by Phish Tank » Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:08 pm

say no to maga hayward
Image

BAF- Houston Rockets:
PG: Fox/Jerome Rob/Cassius Winston
SG: Huerter/Romeo/Monk
SF: Deni/Hunter
PF: Gallo/PJ Washington/Sekou
C: Jaxson Hayes/Jalen Smith/Smailagic

Inactive: Willy
Cookies4Life
Rookie
Posts: 1,138
And1: 1,321
Joined: Dec 08, 2016
       

Re: Exactly what type of package would it take to get Westbrook? 

Post#71 » by Cookies4Life » Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:24 pm

It's interesting to hear some of these takes on Westbrook. he didn't fare very well during the playoffs last year, but he did average over 27 ppg, 8 rebounds and 7 assists last season on over 21 PER and the last 3 months of the season he put up scorching numbers at over 30 ppg, 8 rpg and 8 apg.

I get it, he's a terrible 3 point shooter, his shot selection at times is questionable (to put it mildly,) but lets not talk about him like he's some bum on his last leg. He's still an extremely productive player who happened to play last season out of his element which was off the ball a lot more than he's normally accustomed to (which makes sense playing alongside another high usage player in Harden.)

With Russell at least you know the guy plays hard every game and takes losing personally. His cut throat mentality would be such a refreshing change and would probably rub off on guys like Dennis Smith Jr who I'd hope would emulate Russell's style of play and Frankie as well.

With Westbrook leading the helm and playing with his high usage/on the ball like his OKC days, this team will be able to run the floor a lot more and guys like Toppin and Robinson would thrive alongside him.

I get the negatives with Westbrook- that contract is just abysmal and my gosh that final year at 45 million for a guy who will be 35 years old is frightening. I guess the only positive is he'd be an expiring that season which could end up being a blessing in using him for a package in that summer before his final season to trade him for a disgruntled superstar on a long term deal.

As far as what to give up to get him? I'd hope the Rockets first trade Harden so everyone will know they're in full rebuild mode. At that point, Westbrook's contract will be a severe albatross so they couldn't expect to get anything for him besides a salary dump type of situation.

I'd only package Randle in the deal, I don't know if we're allowed to just absorb the remainder of Russell's contract without matching up close salary wise (i.e. around 27-30 million going out,) but if that was the case, I'd do it. I'd like to try and pry at least 1 pick from Houston to helping them accelerate their rebuild, but I absolutely would NOT include any of our young players in the deal. Regardless of what people think of Kevin Knox or Dennis Smith, I don't want to lose them in this package. Randle is ok to get rid of since I'd much rather see Toppin start alongside Robinson.

It would be a very fun season next year, i still think WB has plenty left in the tank and as the primary ballhandler I can see him back to his triple double averages. My only concern with him has been his shot selection and I'd hope a head strong coach like Thibs would know how to reel him in a little bit. Some are making the possibility of him coming here to be an apocalyptic event and I don't see it that way. We'd just need 2 productive years out of him and he'd make for a fine trade piece in that final expiring season.
ForzaMetro
Junior
Posts: 473
And1: 406
Joined: Mar 19, 2017
     

Re: Exactly what type of package would it take to get Westbrook? 

Post#72 » by ForzaMetro » Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:28 pm

iLLmatic860 wrote:
robillionaire wrote:The Knicks should have all the bargaining power. They already revealed that they want to rebuild which is why they traded Covington for picks. Harden has demanded a trade. The only other team people thought might even entertain the thought was the Hornets and they drafted LaMelo. They can either trade him here or F up their rebuild and have a malcontent who demanded a trade on their team. The knicks on the other hand could go in plenty of other directions to fill the need at PG.

There was a Wizards Wall for Westbrook rumor that shams dropped

Wizards will also be willing to trade picks or even a young player to get outta Walls contract

The question is would Houston be willing to take Wall contract. Idk



Hopefully the Knicks let them do that deal and stay the hell away. I have a bad feeling we're going to get Westbrook...
Richard4444
Analyst
Posts: 3,577
And1: 2,040
Joined: Dec 28, 2018
Location: São Paulo, Brasil
   

Re: Exactly what type of package would it take to get Westbrook? 

Post#73 » by Richard4444 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:46 pm

WB only makes some sense after we spending all of our cap space. After the moratorium, we can get his 42M contract giving back about 33,1M in fillers
(Randle, Dennis, Bullock make around 28,7M).
With Knox or Frank in the deal, we can get to 32M!
Cookies4Life
Rookie
Posts: 1,138
And1: 1,321
Joined: Dec 08, 2016
       

Re: Exactly what type of package would it take to get Westbrook? 

Post#74 » by Cookies4Life » Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:50 pm

Richard4444 wrote:WB only makes some sense after we spending all of our cap space. After the moratorium, we can get his 42M contract giving back about 33,1M in fillers
(Randle, Dennis, Bullock make around 28,7M).
With Knox or Frank in the deal, we can get to 32M!


I'm no cap expert, but do we have to come close to matching salaries in order to get him?

We couldn't just trade Randle alone and absorb the difference? Since we're so below the cap, I didn't think the contracts had to match up closely.

I wouldn't trade anyone except for Randle to get him. We'd be accelerating Houston's rebuild so if anything they should probably give us 1 or 2 2nd round picks for doing them this favor. I don't want to trade any young players or picks for him and I'm actually a fan of RW.
User avatar
K-DOT
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 13,913
And1: 20,030
Joined: Nov 25, 2016
         

Re: Exactly what type of package would it take to get Westbrook? 

Post#75 » by K-DOT » Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:50 pm

Cookies4Life wrote:It's interesting to hear some of these takes on Westbrook. he didn't fare very well during the playoffs last year, but he did average over 27 ppg, 8 rebounds and 7 assists last season on over 21 PER and the last 3 months of the season he put up scorching numbers at over 30 ppg, 8 rpg and 8 apg.

I get it, he's a terrible 3 point shooter, his shot selection at times is questionable (to put it mildly,) but lets not talk about him like he's some bum on his last leg. He's still an extremely productive player who happened to play last season out of his element which was off the ball a lot more than he's normally accustomed to (which makes sense playing alongside another high usage player in Harden.)

He had a below average TS% even with one of the best spacing teams in the league and a reduced usage from being the 2nd option.
BAF Lakers:

Darius Garland/Shabazz Napier
Killian Hayes/Tre Jones
Cam Johnson/Saddiq Bey
Onyeka Okongwu/Darius Bazley
Goga Bitadze/Bol Bol
Cookies4Life
Rookie
Posts: 1,138
And1: 1,321
Joined: Dec 08, 2016
       

Re: Exactly what type of package would it take to get Westbrook? 

Post#76 » by Cookies4Life » Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:54 pm

K-DOT wrote:
Cookies4Life wrote:It's interesting to hear some of these takes on Westbrook. he didn't fare very well during the playoffs last year, but he did average over 27 ppg, 8 rebounds and 7 assists last season on over 21 PER and the last 3 months of the season he put up scorching numbers at over 30 ppg, 8 rpg and 8 apg.

I get it, he's a terrible 3 point shooter, his shot selection at times is questionable (to put it mildly,) but lets not talk about him like he's some bum on his last leg. He's still an extremely productive player who happened to play last season out of his element which was off the ball a lot more than he's normally accustomed to (which makes sense playing alongside another high usage player in Harden.)

He had a below average TS% even with one of the best spacing teams in the league and a reduced usage from being the 2nd option.


I didn't delve into his advance stats (probably should have before posting,) but I always thought the fit was sloppy for him in Houston since he's always thrived as a primary ball handler with a high usage. I'm pretty sure even with the odd fit he was 3rd team all NBA last season.

If he didn't have to share ball handling duties and defer as much as he did last season, I think his efficiency would go up a bit. If Thibs and Kenny Payne, 2 guys known for being very direct with players, could reel him in when he's hoisting up bad shots I think that could also help his efficiency.

He just needs to avoid taking more than 2 3PA's per game (preferably just open sideline 3's,) and focus on the mid range game and getting to the basket.
User avatar
K-DOT
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 13,913
And1: 20,030
Joined: Nov 25, 2016
         

Re: Exactly what type of package would it take to get Westbrook? 

Post#77 » by K-DOT » Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:58 pm

Cookies4Life wrote:
If he didn't have to share ball handling duties and defer as much as he did last season, I think his efficiency would go up a bit.

That's, literally the opposite of how that works

The more shots you take, the less efficient you are. FGA and efficiency are inverse of each other

As evidenced by him being slightly more efficient than his average last year, but still well below league average. Plus his 3PA rate was the lowest its' been since 2012.
BAF Lakers:

Darius Garland/Shabazz Napier
Killian Hayes/Tre Jones
Cam Johnson/Saddiq Bey
Onyeka Okongwu/Darius Bazley
Goga Bitadze/Bol Bol
Cookies4Life
Rookie
Posts: 1,138
And1: 1,321
Joined: Dec 08, 2016
       

Re: Exactly what type of package would it take to get Westbrook? 

Post#78 » by Cookies4Life » Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:09 am

K-DOT wrote:
Cookies4Life wrote:
If he didn't have to share ball handling duties and defer as much as he did last season, I think his efficiency would go up a bit.

That's, literally the opposite of how that works

The more shots you take, the less efficient you are. FGA and efficiency are inverse of each other

As evidenced by him being slightly more efficient than his average last year, but still well below league average. Plus his 3PA rate was the lowest its' been since 2012.


Well I don't think you're taking into account the style of play was different for him last season having to pick and choose his spots and deferring every other possession to Harden (my turn, your turn.)

If he's allowed to play more free-flowing and back to his high usage days ala OKC, I think his TS% could go up a bit.

He averaged 3.7 3PA's per game last year, it was only .4 shy of what he put up 2 years ago so you don't have to go back to 2012 unless your post was meant to come from a pedantic disposition.

I think with the right coaching system and him holding back from reducing his bad shot selection, I believe his numbers could go up. It's all hypothetical since certain things would have to go right.

His overall FG% was over 47% last year but I'm well aware of his TS% never being that great. He does a lot more on the court besides takes bad shots though.

Thanks for the FGA/efficiency inverse lesson. I look at style of play and him being able to revert back to a primary ball handler who wouldn't have to defer and pick his offensive spots more judiciously as him having a shot to be a bit more efficient.

And I like how you grazed past me saying hopefully he doesn't take more than 2 3PA's per game. As a 25% 3 point shooter last year, that alone could help his numbers improve.
User avatar
K-DOT
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 13,913
And1: 20,030
Joined: Nov 25, 2016
         

Re: Exactly what type of package would it take to get Westbrook? 

Post#79 » by K-DOT » Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:17 am

Cookies4Life wrote:Well I don't think you're taking into account the style of play was different for him last season having to pick and choose his spots and deferring every other possession to Harden (my turn, your turn.)

If he's allowed to play more free-flowing and back to his high usage days ala OKC, I think his TS% could go up a bit.

His career average TS in OKC was .529 with his best seasons being at .554. Last year he had a .536 when league average was .565, which he's never hit in his life

He averaged 3.7 3PA's per game last year, it was only .4 shy of what he put up 2 years ago so you don't have to go back to 2012 unless your post was meant to come from a pedantic disposition.

3PA rate is how many 3s you take per FG. His was .166 last year, his lowest since 2012


I think with the right coaching system and him holding back from reducing his bad shot selection, I believe his numbers could go up. It's all hypothetical since certain things would have to go right.

His overall FG% was over 47% last year but I'm well aware of his TS% never being that great. He does a lot more on the court besides takes bad shots though.

Thanks for the FGA/efficiency inverse lesson. I look at style of play and him being able to revert back to a primary ball handler who wouldn't have to defer and pick his offensive spots more judiciously as him having a shot to be a bit more efficient.

And I like how you grazed past me saying hopefully he doesn't take more than 2 3PA's per game. As a 25% 3 point shooter last year, that alone could help his numbers improve.

He's a 32 year old making 50 million a year whose game is reliant on his athleticism. He's not gonna change

He puts up inefficient numbers and gets stats through high usage rates. That's what he does on the court.
BAF Lakers:

Darius Garland/Shabazz Napier
Killian Hayes/Tre Jones
Cam Johnson/Saddiq Bey
Onyeka Okongwu/Darius Bazley
Goga Bitadze/Bol Bol
Richard4444
Analyst
Posts: 3,577
And1: 2,040
Joined: Dec 28, 2018
Location: São Paulo, Brasil
   

Re: Exactly what type of package would it take to get Westbrook? 

Post#80 » by Richard4444 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:28 am

Cookies4Life wrote:
Richard4444 wrote:WB only makes some sense after we spending all of our cap space. After the moratorium, we can get his 42M contract giving back about 33,1M in fillers
(Randle, Dennis, Bullock make around 28,7M).
With Knox or Frank in the deal, we can get to 32M!


I'm no cap expert, but do we have to come close to matching salaries in order to get him?

We couldn't just trade Randle alone and absorb the difference? Since we're so below the cap, I didn't think the contracts had to match up closely.

I wouldn't trade anyone except for Randle to get him. We'd be accelerating Houston's rebuild so if anything they should probably give us 1 or 2 2nd round picks for doing them this favor. I don't want to trade any young players or picks for him and I'm actually a fan of RW.


You have 2 options.

Using salary Cap - We dump Randle in the deal. Our salary cap drops from 41M to 19M. - We sign Wood and Hood with it. We can keep Knox, Dennis, and Bullock.

Matching salaries - We can have a payroll of 118M (9M extra to use). We can use our 41M salary - signing Fred/Hayward for 22M Hood and Wood for 19M. Then, we trade Randle, Knox, Dennis and Bullock. We will get a 22M star instead of 3 rotation players (Knox, Dennis, and Bullock) that make 14M.

Return to New York Knicks