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Elfrid back and I hate everything.

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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#141 » by blanko » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:10 am

Trade randle for rozier
Or
Randle and dsj for lowry
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#142 » by WargamesX » Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:22 am

Not going to lie..... this move is really annoying to me. He and Randle were selfish with the ball last and here we are with them on the roster again.
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#143 » by Garbagelo » Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:34 am

Another reason to never trust the front office.

They do NOT care about your satisfaction because you will still pay Dolan directly or indirectly for watching his product whether you're miserable or not.

Being small brained allows you to be disappointed but the ones that have seen this crap over and over know it is more obvious than the sun rising in the east and are numb to it at this point. There is no getting better, terminal is terminal.
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#144 » by Fat Kat » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:27 pm

I’d rather have Langston Galloway or Austin Rivers. We have perhaps the 3 worst shooting PGs in the league, on one team. Absolutely ridiculous.
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#145 » by TheGreenArrow » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:31 pm

Scalabrine wrote:
Capn'O wrote:
Scalabrine wrote:Listen, I didn't love Payton as the starter last year. He's definitely a backup on pretty much every team in the league. But the difference between him running the offense and RJ or Frank running the offense was pretty drastic. He definitely force fed Randle and looked off our young guys too much, but we need at least one rotation caliber true point guard on the roster and we are pretty much out of options.

Robinson/Noel/Davis
Randle/Toppin
Barrett/Knox
Bullock/Burks/Quickley
Payton/Ntilikina/Smith

Still have a little bit of capspace left. Obviously another 3/4 will be added. More shooters are needed too. Still an awful shooting team.


Not to dwell on the obvious, but we need to drop Randle.


You don't mean drop him, drop him do you? I feel like he's still our best bet is to continue to showcase him and now that he's essentially an expiring, some team will look at him during the playoff push as a last piece. He's frustrating, but we do need someone that can put the ball in the hoop and he's still young enough to get better.


Randle is coming off the bench.

No way he starts over Obi Toppin.
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#146 » by Fat Kat » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:40 pm

TheGreenArrow wrote:
Scalabrine wrote:
Capn'O wrote:
Not to dwell on the obvious, but we need to drop Randle.


You don't mean drop him, drop him do you? I feel like he's still our best bet is to continue to showcase him and now that he's essentially an expiring, some team will look at him during the playoff push as a last piece. He's frustrating, but we do need someone that can put the ball in the hoop and he's still young enough to get better.


Randle is coming off the bench.

No way he starts over Obi Toppin.


Let’s keep our fingers crossed. However, if you’re right, it creates unnecessary locker room tension. If Randle is here, it’s a lose-lose proposition.
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#147 » by Cookies4Life » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:45 pm

What exactly is a 1 year deal going to accomplish with this guy? He's clearly going to play selfishly and put up empty stats to help him secure a long term contract with someone else. This is the epitome of an inane mercenary contract.

I saw the majority of knicks games last year and I was never really impressed with Payton outside of maybe a handful of games. He can pass the ball but he's just very judicious with who he passes it to. It sure felt like RJ was getting frozen out by him and you could tell that RJ prefers playing with Frankie in the back court since Frankie at least looks to get Barrett involved.

I read the other thread and was shocked to see the amount of possessions Payton passes to Randle per game. They played in NO together if I remember correctly so maybe they've built some dysfunctional chemistry with each other the past few years.

I wish Frank and DSJ got all the minutes at the 1 with RJ getting some plays ran for him as a point forward and maybe see what Quickley could do with spot minutes at the 1 before he's pigeon-holed into a 3 and D player.

This Payton deal makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, the length of the deal is going to assure he'll be looking just to get his empty stats up. I hope we can dump him off to a contender by midseason for a 2nd round pick.
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#148 » by EnigmatiC » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:53 pm

:lol: :lol: What an indictment on Frank and DSJ
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#149 » by TheGreenArrow » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:04 pm

Fat Kat wrote:
TheGreenArrow wrote:
Scalabrine wrote:
You don't mean drop him, drop him do you? I feel like he's still our best bet is to continue to showcase him and now that he's essentially an expiring, some team will look at him during the playoff push as a last piece. He's frustrating, but we do need someone that can put the ball in the hoop and he's still young enough to get better.


Randle is coming off the bench.

No way he starts over Obi Toppin.


Let’s keep our fingers crossed. However, if you’re right, it creates unnecessary locker room tension. If Randle is here, it’s a lose-lose proposition.


Which is why we can pretty much guarantee he won’t be here come opening night.
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#150 » by Scalabrine » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:15 pm

Jeffrey wrote:Again, can we definitively say Frank or even DSJr was not good when they have gotten inconsistent minutes? Like I said, give the keys to Frank for one full year as a starter playing 30+ minutes. If he is trash after 3 years, then so be it.. we can say that. But so far, we see inconsistencies with inconsistent minutes.


Paytons 1 year, 5 million dollar deal does not stop us from giving the French Prince minutes. 5 million per year for a non-rookie contract is 100% backup point guard money.
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#151 » by Scalabrine » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:16 pm

TheGreenArrow wrote:
Scalabrine wrote:
Capn'O wrote:
Not to dwell on the obvious, but we need to drop Randle.


You don't mean drop him, drop him do you? I feel like he's still our best bet is to continue to showcase him and now that he's essentially an expiring, some team will look at him during the playoff push as a last piece. He's frustrating, but we do need someone that can put the ball in the hoop and he's still young enough to get better.


Randle is coming off the bench.

No way he starts over Obi Toppin.


oooo youre in for a treat then...
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#152 » by Scalabrine » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:22 pm

Cookies4Life wrote:What exactly is a 1 year deal going to accomplish with this guy? He's clearly going to play selfishly and put up empty stats to help him secure a long term contract with someone else. This is the epitome of an inane mercenary contract.

I saw the majority of knicks games last year and I was never really impressed with Payton outside of maybe a handful of games. He can pass the ball but he's just very judicious with who he passes it to. It sure felt like RJ was getting frozen out by him and you could tell that RJ prefers playing with Frankie in the back court since Frankie at least looks to get Barrett involved.

I read the other thread and was shocked to see the amount of possessions Payton passes to Randle per game. They played in NO together if I remember correctly so maybe they've built some dysfunctional chemistry with each other the past few years.

I wish Frank and DSJ got all the minutes at the 1 with RJ getting some plays ran for him as a point forward and maybe see what Quickley could do with spot minutes at the 1 before he's pigeon-holed into a 3 and D player.

This Payton deal makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, the length of the deal is going to assure he'll be looking just to get his empty stats up. I hope we can dump him off to a contender by midseason for a 2nd round pick.


You watched most of the games last year and you're denying that we looked much better with a point guard on the roster? Ntilikina is a secondary ball handler at best at this point. More in a Marcus Smart role. DSj was shook all year and was a turnover machine. Our offense looked so much better with a competent floor general then it did with guys trying to play the part. I'm not a fan of him either, but there are no guys left that fit better, and given the contracts the other guys I was interested in got, this seems like the best route.

Either way, Paytons 5 million dollar deal isn't going to force us to start him. If anything, his contract is small enough that we can move him to a team during the season that needs a backup point guard for another 2023 second round pick.
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#153 » by Cookies4Life » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:34 pm

Scalabrine wrote:
Cookies4Life wrote:What exactly is a 1 year deal going to accomplish with this guy? He's clearly going to play selfishly and put up empty stats to help him secure a long term contract with someone else. This is the epitome of an inane mercenary contract.

I saw the majority of knicks games last year and I was never really impressed with Payton outside of maybe a handful of games. He can pass the ball but he's just very judicious with who he passes it to. It sure felt like RJ was getting frozen out by him and you could tell that RJ prefers playing with Frankie in the back court since Frankie at least looks to get Barrett involved.

I read the other thread and was shocked to see the amount of possessions Payton passes to Randle per game. They played in NO together if I remember correctly so maybe they've built some dysfunctional chemistry with each other the past few years.

I wish Frank and DSJ got all the minutes at the 1 with RJ getting some plays ran for him as a point forward and maybe see what Quickley could do with spot minutes at the 1 before he's pigeon-holed into a 3 and D player.

This Payton deal makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, the length of the deal is going to assure he'll be looking just to get his empty stats up. I hope we can dump him off to a contender by midseason for a 2nd round pick.


You watched most of the games last year and you're denying that we looked much better with a point guard on the roster? Ntilikina is a secondary ball handler at best at this point. More in a Marcus Smart role. DSj was shook all year and was a turnover machine. Our offense looked so much better with a competent floor general then it did with guys trying to play the part. I'm not a fan of him either, but there are no guys left that fit better, and given the contracts the other guys I was interested in got, this seems like the best route.

Either way, Paytons 5 million dollar deal isn't going to force us to start him. If anything, his contract is small enough that we can move him to a team during the season that needs a backup point guard for another 2023 second round pick.


We must have been watching different games. He got Randle and Morris involved a lot in isolation situations and the occasional lob to Robinson. That was pretty much his floor generalship at work game in and game out.

It took me a while to pick up on it but he clearly wasn't getting Barrett involved on offense. Rj was relegated to a spot up role playing alongside those other starters who were basically isolation heavy players. RJ needs the ball in his hands to be most effective; it's how he was utilized at Duke and he looked pretty dam good there.

Sorry but Frank looked much better at least getting RJ involved than Payton ever did last season. I'm looking at the big picture which is developing our top 3 pick and there were certain players that froze him out while others were making a concerted effort to get him involved.

And Payton is a terrible 3 point shooter and an awful FT shooter. Say what you will about Frank's offense but he's a much better 3 point shooter and exponentially better at the FT line than Payton. Frank is a long term project and has shown small improvements on an annual basis in the presence of dysfunctional coaching since he was a rookie. Payton is who he is at this juncture and signing him to a 1 year contract is only going to push him into a more selfish role to put up stats in order to parlay that into another contract elsewhere. He was drafted by Perry in orlando and for some ill odd reason Perry keeps signing him.

I do agree with you though on the hope he's traded at some point for a SRP. Definitely 100% behind that idea.
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#154 » by Are We Ther Yet » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:38 pm

Scalabrine wrote:
Cookies4Life wrote:What exactly is a 1 year deal going to accomplish with this guy? He's clearly going to play selfishly and put up empty stats to help him secure a long term contract with someone else. This is the epitome of an inane mercenary contract.

I saw the majority of knicks games last year and I was never really impressed with Payton outside of maybe a handful of games. He can pass the ball but he's just very judicious with who he passes it to. It sure felt like RJ was getting frozen out by him and you could tell that RJ prefers playing with Frankie in the back court since Frankie at least looks to get Barrett involved.

I read the other thread and was shocked to see the amount of possessions Payton passes to Randle per game. They played in NO together if I remember correctly so maybe they've built some dysfunctional chemistry with each other the past few years.

I wish Frank and DSJ got all the minutes at the 1 with RJ getting some plays ran for him as a point forward and maybe see what Quickley could do with spot minutes at the 1 before he's pigeon-holed into a 3 and D player.

This Payton deal makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, the length of the deal is going to assure he'll be looking just to get his empty stats up. I hope we can dump him off to a contender by midseason for a 2nd round pick.


You watched most of the games last year and you're denying that we looked much better with a point guard on the roster? Ntilikina is a secondary ball handler at best at this point. More in a Marcus Smart role. DSj was shook all year and was a turnover machine. Our offense looked so much better with a competent floor general then it did with guys trying to play the part. I'm not a fan of him either, but there are no guys left that fit better, and given the contracts the other guys I was interested in got, this seems like the best route.

Either way, Paytons 5 million dollar deal isn't going to force us to start him. If anything, his contract is small enough that we can move him to a team during the season that needs a backup point guard for another 2023 second round pick.


When he is playing more minutes than other PGs and pounding the air out of the ball only to end up passing to Randle all day...we can revisit your positive outlook on this deal? :lol:
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#155 » by god shammgod » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:39 pm

great thread title
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#156 » by Scalabrine » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:43 pm

Cookies4Life wrote:
Scalabrine wrote:
Cookies4Life wrote:What exactly is a 1 year deal going to accomplish with this guy? He's clearly going to play selfishly and put up empty stats to help him secure a long term contract with someone else. This is the epitome of an inane mercenary contract.

I saw the majority of knicks games last year and I was never really impressed with Payton outside of maybe a handful of games. He can pass the ball but he's just very judicious with who he passes it to. It sure felt like RJ was getting frozen out by him and you could tell that RJ prefers playing with Frankie in the back court since Frankie at least looks to get Barrett involved.

I read the other thread and was shocked to see the amount of possessions Payton passes to Randle per game. They played in NO together if I remember correctly so maybe they've built some dysfunctional chemistry with each other the past few years.

I wish Frank and DSJ got all the minutes at the 1 with RJ getting some plays ran for him as a point forward and maybe see what Quickley could do with spot minutes at the 1 before he's pigeon-holed into a 3 and D player.

This Payton deal makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, the length of the deal is going to assure he'll be looking just to get his empty stats up. I hope we can dump him off to a contender by midseason for a 2nd round pick.


You watched most of the games last year and you're denying that we looked much better with a point guard on the roster? Ntilikina is a secondary ball handler at best at this point. More in a Marcus Smart role. DSj was shook all year and was a turnover machine. Our offense looked so much better with a competent floor general then it did with guys trying to play the part. I'm not a fan of him either, but there are no guys left that fit better, and given the contracts the other guys I was interested in got, this seems like the best route.

Either way, Paytons 5 million dollar deal isn't going to force us to start him. If anything, his contract is small enough that we can move him to a team during the season that needs a backup point guard for another 2023 second round pick.


We must have been watching different games. He got Randle and Morris involved a lot in isolation situations and the occasional lob to Robinson. That was pretty much his floor generalship at work game in and game out.

It took me a while to pick up on it but he clearly wasn't getting Barrett involved on offense. Rj was relegated to a spot up role playing alongside those other starters who were basically isolation heavy players. RJ needs the ball in his hands to be most effective; it's how he was utilized at Duke and he looked pretty dam good there.

Sorry but Frank looked much better at least getting RJ involved than Payton ever did last season. I'm looking at the big picture which is developing our top 3 pick and there were certain players that froze him out while others were making a concerted effort to get him involved.

And Payton is a terrible 3 point shooter and an awful FT shooter. Say what you will about Frank's offense but he's a much better 3 point shooter and exponentially better at the FT line than Payton. Frank is a long term project and has shown small improvements on an annual basis in the presence of dysfunctional coaching since he was a rookie. Payton is who he is at this juncture and signing him to a 1 year contract is only going going to push him into a more selfish role to put up stats in order to parlay that into another contract elsewhere. He was drafted by Perry in orlando and for some ill odd reason Perry keeps signing him.

I do agree with you though on the hope he's traded at some point for a SRP. Definitely 100% behind that idea.


Other guys that signed deals around 5mill. Pat Cannaughton, Garrett Temple, Kris Dunn, Avery Bradley, Alec Burks, Nerlens Noel, Avery Bradley. None of these guys are starters. All of them signed for multi year too (aside from our guys). Ntilikina, DSj and even Quickley will have every opportunity to start if they prove that they are better than Payton.

I agree that I'd love to start develpoing RJ into more of the lead ball-handler, but having one more facilitator on the roster, making backup money, isn't going to kill us.

As far as the 1 year deal thing, teams aren't looking for stat padders and selfish players anymore. Especially as backups. If Elf is smart, he's coming back and looking to show that he's a good team player, plays his role well and doesn't complain. If he does all of that then he's in a pretty good spot to get another above minimum level contract next year from a team. I really don't see the big deal here.
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#157 » by thebuzzardman » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:54 pm

TheGreenArrow wrote:
Scalabrine wrote:
Capn'O wrote:
Not to dwell on the obvious, but we need to drop Randle.


You don't mean drop him, drop him do you? I feel like he's still our best bet is to continue to showcase him and now that he's essentially an expiring, some team will look at him during the playoff push as a last piece. He's frustrating, but we do need someone that can put the ball in the hoop and he's still young enough to get better.


Randle is coming off the bench.

No way he starts over Obi Toppin.


Knox and Frank were both drafted around the same spot and came off the bench.

I get Obi is about 4 years older than both guys at time of draft and far less of a project.
But it's not like he was drafted top 3.
He MIGHT come off the bench.
Obviously, I think that's dumb, especially as Randle is now essentially a 1 year mercenary.
But, it's certainly possible.

Or, as someone else stated, Randle starts at 5 and Obi at the 4. Of course, this just pushes Mitch and Knox further down the depth chart and makes the Noel signing less good, but it's something that could happen until Randle gets moved in season. Not likely though.
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#158 » by Jeffrey » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:00 pm

Scalabrine wrote:
Jeffrey wrote:Again, can we definitively say Frank or even DSJr was not good when they have gotten inconsistent minutes? Like I said, give the keys to Frank for one full year as a starter playing 30+ minutes. If he is trash after 3 years, then so be it.. we can say that. But so far, we see inconsistencies with inconsistent minutes.


Paytons 1 year, 5 million dollar deal does not stop us from giving the French Prince minutes. 5 million per year for a non-rookie contract is 100% backup point guard money.


I somewhat agree with you. The overall feeling from this board and mine as well is that when the Knicks were out of playoff contention, Miller was still running Payton as if he was the future of the team. For me, I want 30+ minutes for Frank running with the 1st team. I want to say with confidence that he is not a good player but right now he hasn't gotten a chance that most top 10 picks would get.
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#159 » by Ray Williams » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:24 pm

Scalabrine wrote:
Cookies4Life wrote:What exactly is a 1 year deal going to accomplish with this guy? He's clearly going to play selfishly and put up empty stats to help him secure a long term contract with someone else. This is the epitome of an inane mercenary contract.

I saw the majority of knicks games last year and I was never really impressed with Payton outside of maybe a handful of games. He can pass the ball but he's just very judicious with who he passes it to. It sure felt like RJ was getting frozen out by him and you could tell that RJ prefers playing with Frankie in the back court since Frankie at least looks to get Barrett involved.

I read the other thread and was shocked to see the amount of possessions Payton passes to Randle per game. They played in NO together if I remember correctly so maybe they've built some dysfunctional chemistry with each other the past few years.

I wish Frank and DSJ got all the minutes at the 1 with RJ getting some plays ran for him as a point forward and maybe see what Quickley could do with spot minutes at the 1 before he's pigeon-holed into a 3 and D player.

This Payton deal makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, the length of the deal is going to assure he'll be looking just to get his empty stats up. I hope we can dump him off to a contender by midseason for a 2nd round pick.


You watched most of the games last year and you're denying that we looked much better with a point guard on the roster? Ntilikina is a secondary ball handler at best at this point. More in a Marcus Smart role. DSj was shook all year and was a turnover machine. Our offense looked so much better with a competent floor general then it did with guys trying to play the part. I'm not a fan of him either, but there are no guys left that fit better, and given the contracts the other guys I was interested in got, this seems like the best route.

Either way, Paytons 5 million dollar deal isn't going to force us to start him. If anything, his contract is small enough that we can move him to a team during the season that needs a backup point guard for another 2023 second round pick.


Are you saying you would play that bum Payton over a Marcus Smart if we had him, because he’s what you say is a secondary ball handler?
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#160 » by Scalabrine » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:58 pm

Ray Williams wrote:
Scalabrine wrote:
Cookies4Life wrote:What exactly is a 1 year deal going to accomplish with this guy? He's clearly going to play selfishly and put up empty stats to help him secure a long term contract with someone else. This is the epitome of an inane mercenary contract.

I saw the majority of knicks games last year and I was never really impressed with Payton outside of maybe a handful of games. He can pass the ball but he's just very judicious with who he passes it to. It sure felt like RJ was getting frozen out by him and you could tell that RJ prefers playing with Frankie in the back court since Frankie at least looks to get Barrett involved.

I read the other thread and was shocked to see the amount of possessions Payton passes to Randle per game. They played in NO together if I remember correctly so maybe they've built some dysfunctional chemistry with each other the past few years.

I wish Frank and DSJ got all the minutes at the 1 with RJ getting some plays ran for him as a point forward and maybe see what Quickley could do with spot minutes at the 1 before he's pigeon-holed into a 3 and D player.

This Payton deal makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, the length of the deal is going to assure he'll be looking just to get his empty stats up. I hope we can dump him off to a contender by midseason for a 2nd round pick.


You watched most of the games last year and you're denying that we looked much better with a point guard on the roster? Ntilikina is a secondary ball handler at best at this point. More in a Marcus Smart role. DSj was shook all year and was a turnover machine. Our offense looked so much better with a competent floor general then it did with guys trying to play the part. I'm not a fan of him either, but there are no guys left that fit better, and given the contracts the other guys I was interested in got, this seems like the best route.

Either way, Paytons 5 million dollar deal isn't going to force us to start him. If anything, his contract is small enough that we can move him to a team during the season that needs a backup point guard for another 2023 second round pick.


Are you saying you would play that bum Payton over a Marcus Smart if we had him, because he’s what you say is a secondary ball handler?


I see your point but no, thats not what Im saying. What I'm saying is that it's good to have a guy that has proven he can run an NBA offense ALSO. The difference between the way our offense looked when he was on the court vs when he wasn't was pretty obvious to me. I didn't say that he has to start and if Ntilikina can get to Smarts level offensively, then he would obviously be the starter, but it is important to have a guy that is good at setting the table for others and right now Frank isn't that, Payton is.
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