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Elfrid back and I hate everything.

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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#161 » by cgmw » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:01 pm

The worst part about Payton isn’t his abysmal shooting or the development minutes taken from Frank/Dennis.

The worst part is his rapport with Julius freezing out everyone else.
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#162 » by hatnlvr » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:50 pm

This move literally made me throw up in my mouth! We already got rid of the cancer! Move on!!! :banghead: :banghead:
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#163 » by Clyde Frazier » Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:37 pm

I was basically fine with what they'd done up until the payton move. This now increases the chances of payton and randle starting together, and the payton/randle tunnel vision 2 way game is terrible. Unless randle is traded I don't expect any of that to change. I've come around on thibs, but he isn't a miracle worker. Such a deflating move.
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#164 » by br7knicks » Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:46 pm

resigning payton is like eating a bunch of **** food, passing it and **** it out, then grabbing the **** and eating it again.
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#165 » by br7knicks » Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:48 pm

Scalabrine wrote:
Jeffrey wrote:Again, can we definitively say Frank or even DSJr was not good when they have gotten inconsistent minutes? Like I said, give the keys to Frank for one full year as a starter playing 30+ minutes. If he is trash after 3 years, then so be it.. we can say that. But so far, we see inconsistencies with inconsistent minutes.


Paytons 1 year, 5 million dollar deal does not stop us from giving the French Prince minutes. 5 million per year for a non-rookie contract is 100% backup point guard money.


maybe, but this franchise has messed up every year for the last 9, and have given me no reason to believe payton will only be a backup.

fully expect him to be starting after 10 games, if not at the beginning of the season.
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#166 » by br7knicks » Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:56 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
Phish Tank wrote:tank aspirations aside, we just probably have to use the following decision tree to have things make sense.

1) Are Tyrese Haliburtion & Kira Lewis franchise-caliber PGs? If not, are they just as talented, if not more, than Toppin?

If any of these questions are NO, then you have to find a PG in free agency or trade. To set things clearly, neither Tyrell Terry or Malachi Flynn preclude the need for signing a vet PG. Drafting those two just mean that Frank/DSJ aren't bench caliber PGs.

2) Can you acquire a PG via trade? In other words, can you pull off the Rubio deal? Probably not.

3) Are there better options as free agents? Looking at it, probably not.


Tyrese Halliburton is a player who would have come in and made other players better while providing us with some tangible all-around skills. Toppin is a gamble imo. How are we going to establish an identity with a one-way player like him? That defeats the opportunity of drafting that high. That said, I hope this all works out one day.


agreed. i wanted haliburton. still want him. i want the knicks to still go grab him somehow.
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#167 » by Synciere » Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:07 pm

2010 wrote:Yet another year of wasted development for Smith & Ntilikina.

I was just saying previously that Scott Perry's controller has definitely not been unplugged.


If Frank and DSJ can’t beat out Elfrid Payton for playing time, then that’s on them, not the organization.
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#168 » by knickabocker88 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:44 pm

Synciere wrote:
2010 wrote:Yet another year of wasted development for Smith & Ntilikina.

I was just saying previously that Scott Perry's controller has definitely not been unplugged.


If Frank and DSJ can’t beat out Elfrid Payton for playing time, then that’s on them, not the organization.


Marc Jackson played David Lee over Draymond Green & didn't know how to utilize Klay Thompson

Coaches and Organizations make mistakes.

This organization is number 1 in mismanaging players
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#169 » by E-Balla » Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:54 pm

knickabocker88 wrote:
Synciere wrote:
2010 wrote:Yet another year of wasted development for Smith & Ntilikina.

I was just saying previously that Scott Perry's controller has definitely not been unplugged.


If Frank and DSJ can’t beat out Elfrid Payton for playing time, then that’s on them, not the organization.


Marc Jackson played David Lee over Draymond Green & didn't know how to utilize Klay Thompson

Coaches and Organizations make mistakes.

This organization is number 1 in mismanaging players

Umm... At the time Lee was better. Hell Dray only got the starting job under Kerr because Lee got hurt in camp.
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#170 » by 2010 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:04 pm

Synciere wrote:
2010 wrote:Yet another year of wasted development for Smith & Ntilikina.

I was just saying previously that Scott Perry's controller has definitely not been unplugged.


If Frank and DSJ can’t beat out Elfrid Payton for playing time, then that’s on them, not the organization.


So there's no such thing as vet privilege or player bias?
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#171 » by Synciere » Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:29 pm

knickabocker88 wrote:
Synciere wrote:
2010 wrote:Yet another year of wasted development for Smith & Ntilikina.

I was just saying previously that Scott Perry's controller has definitely not been unplugged.


If Frank and DSJ can’t beat out Elfrid Payton for playing time, then that’s on them, not the organization.


Marc Jackson played David Lee over Draymond Green & didn't know how to utilize Klay Thompson

Coaches and Organizations make mistakes.

This organization is number 1 in mismanaging players


True, organizations and coaches make mistakes, but we’re on our fourth coach in as many years and second regime. If every coach is saying the same thing, it’s on the player. The fact that we can see Elfrid Payton as an impediment to their development is an indictment of them.
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#172 » by Synciere » Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:32 pm

2010 wrote:
Synciere wrote:
2010 wrote:Yet another year of wasted development for Smith & Ntilikina.

I was just saying previously that Scott Perry's controller has definitely not been unplugged.


If Frank and DSJ can’t beat out Elfrid Payton for playing time, then that’s on them, not the organization.


So there's no such thing as vet privilege or player bias?


Sure, but not for vets who are making 5 million on a one year deal.. come on.. there’s also a bias towards the better player, regardless of years in the league.

I hope Frank or DSJ hit camp and take the job and make it so obvious that they’re the team’s point guard that Payton becomes an afterthought, but blaming the organization for bringing in Payton is crazy.
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#173 » by KnicksGadfly » Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:13 am

Hate to say this but Rivers > Elfrid Payless
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#174 » by ctorres » Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:28 am

KnicksGadfly wrote:Hate to say this but Rivers > Elfrid Payless


Rivers starting alongside Barrett and Ntilikina would not be the worst thing in the world.
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#175 » by knicksNOTslick » Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:06 am

Synciere wrote:
knickabocker88 wrote:
Synciere wrote:
If Frank and DSJ can’t beat out Elfrid Payton for playing time, then that’s on them, not the organization.


Marc Jackson played David Lee over Draymond Green & didn't know how to utilize Klay Thompson

Coaches and Organizations make mistakes.

This organization is number 1 in mismanaging players


True, organizations and coaches make mistakes, but we’re on our fourth coach in as many years and second regime. If every coach is saying the same thing, it’s on the player. The fact that we can see Elfrid Payton as an impediment to their development is an indictment of them.

Because every coach we've had has been on win-now mode considering how quickly they know they'll get fired if they don't produce right away. Naturally, they'd play the more polished PG even though said PG has no future with the team. How did starting Mudiay and giving him all those minutes turn out for us? It didn't give us more wins and we didn't resign him. Who did it benefit?

Payton is not the answer either but we'll never know how DSJ and Frank would do because the Knicks never threw them in the fire. Always somebody in the way of more playing time. That's on the FO.
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#176 » by Synciere » Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:14 am

knicksNOTslick wrote:
Synciere wrote:
knickabocker88 wrote:
Marc Jackson played David Lee over Draymond Green & didn't know how to utilize Klay Thompson

Coaches and Organizations make mistakes.

This organization is number 1 in mismanaging players


True, organizations and coaches make mistakes, but we’re on our fourth coach in as many years and second regime. If every coach is saying the same thing, it’s on the player. The fact that we can see Elfrid Payton as an impediment to their development is an indictment of them.

Because every coach we've had has been on win-now mode considering how quickly they know they'll get fired if they don't produce right away. Naturally, they'd play the more polished PG even though said PG has no future with the team. How did starting Mudiay and giving him all those minutes turn out for us? It didn't give us more wins and we didn't resign him. Who did it benefit?

Payton is not the answer either but we'll never know how DSJ and Frank would do because the Knicks never threw them in the fire. Always somebody in the way of more playing time. That's on the FO.


I disagree the front office never threw them into the fire. Frank started the year under Fizdale in the starting lineup. Phil drafted him as a big point guard. He didn’t hold his spot. I could made to agree with your assessment of DSJ, but the very fact he was given up on by Carlisle is just prof of another coach who didn’t believe in him.

I’m not saying Payton is the answer. A one year, five million dollar deal makes plain he isn’t an answer, but he can possibly help in the short term.

Like I said, they have the opportunity to take the job with just each other and Payton to compete with, along with rookie IQ. It’s on them now.
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#177 » by Synciere » Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:15 am

ctorres wrote:
KnicksGadfly wrote:Hate to say this but Rivers > Elfrid Payless


Rivers starting alongside Barrett and Ntilikina would not be the worst thing in the world.


It’s not the best thing either, because that means Frank and Dennis didn’t take the job from journeymen players. That means they aren’t the answers either.
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#178 » by cgmw » Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:19 am

ctorres wrote:
KnicksGadfly wrote:Hate to say this but Rivers > Elfrid Payless


Rivers starting alongside Barrett and Ntilikina would not be the worst thing in the world.


Mitch
Obi
RJ
Rivers
Frank

I could dig it. The whole season changes if Obi comes out immediately as a scoring presence from deep.

The rivers contract is much easier to swallow with him being the lowest paid player on the team besides Mitch and the two ways. Expectation is bench players/support role.
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#179 » by Clyde_Style » Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:28 am

Rose just sold the movie rights to:

To Hell Elfrid and Back and Then Elfrid Again
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#180 » by John Murdoch » Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:32 am

Hes good in fantasy sometimes but yeah i dont see why Leon wouldnt wanna showcase the younger guards more
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