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Elfrid back and I hate everything.

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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#201 » by nedleeds » Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:21 pm

GONYK wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:Frank shot 37% from three in those 26 games he started, he actually had decent numbers, 7ppg, 3.2apg, 2.2rpg in just 26mpg.


The biggest problem is he's not aggressive enough, he could have easily been a 11-13ppg scorer in those 26 starts if he were just a bit more selfish, his mindset is a bigger issue than anything else. I'd rather him be selfish and go out there like Marcus Smart and just shoot the leather off the ball, rather than do what he does. There's a player there,he just needs to change his mindset.


Agreed.

Frank doesn't freelance. That is his strength and his curse, but it limits him as a PG in the modern NBA. He would do well under a coach like Carlisle who (pre-Luka) basically told his players exactly what to do each time down the floor.


I think Frank would have almost no remaining supporters but for a few things

a) he was a fetus when drafted
b) his coaches have been the worst in the league and he's had lots of them
c) he grew
d) you watch him play on a "good" FIBA team with a little bit of coaching and some decent teammates and he just looks like a totally viable rotation player

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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#202 » by GONYK » Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:27 pm

nedleeds wrote:
GONYK wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:Frank shot 37% from three in those 26 games he started, he actually had decent numbers, 7ppg, 3.2apg, 2.2rpg in just 26mpg.


The biggest problem is he's not aggressive enough, he could have easily been a 11-13ppg scorer in those 26 starts if he were just a bit more selfish, his mindset is a bigger issue than anything else. I'd rather him be selfish and go out there like Marcus Smart and just shoot the leather off the ball, rather than do what he does. There's a player there,he just needs to change his mindset.


Agreed.

Frank doesn't freelance. That is his strength and his curse, but it limits him as a PG in the modern NBA. He would do well under a coach like Carlisle who (pre-Luka) basically told his players exactly what to do each time down the floor.


I think Frank would have almost no remaining supporters but for a few things

a) he was a fetus when drafted
b) his coaches have been the worst in the league and he's had lots of them
c) he grew
d) you watch him play on a "good" FIBA team with a little bit of coaching and some decent teammates and he just looks like a totally viable rotation player

e. The Knicks are better pretty much every time he's on the floor
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#203 » by NoLayupRule » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:31 pm

im pretty surprised at the lack of love for Payton

hes a strong defender and playmaker
hes not even a bad penetrator

sure he cant shoot but its nice to have a playmaking guard who isnt afraid to have the ball in his hands - aka frank
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#204 » by dc » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:56 pm

NoLayupRule wrote:im pretty surprised at the lack of love for Payton

hes a strong defender and playmaker
hes not even a bad penetrator

sure he cant shoot but its nice to have a playmaking guard who isnt afraid to have the ball in his hands - aka frank


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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#205 » by Kampuchea » Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:14 pm

nedleeds wrote:d) you watch him play on a "good" FIBA team with a little bit of coaching and some decent teammates and he just looks like a totally viable rotation player



Not a good look in that video. Worst defense I have seen in a while, Frank was just shooting with no defenders anywhere.

It is nice he can hit shots when alone in the gym but doesn't translate yet to his play on the NBA court.
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#206 » by hundreth » Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:26 pm

Frank was by far our best PG last season and it wasn't even close. The team always performed way better when he was out there on the court. And this is with him looking over his shoulder every minute to see if one of these bum ass coaches was going to pull him for a missed shot.
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#207 » by justin12140 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:33 pm

NoLayupRule wrote:im pretty surprised at the lack of love for Payton

hes a strong defender and playmaker
hes not even a bad penetrator

sure he cant shoot but its nice to have a playmaking guard who isnt afraid to have the ball in his hands - aka frank

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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#208 » by Fat » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:58 pm

NoLayupRule wrote:im pretty surprised at the lack of love for Payton

hes a strong defender and playmaker
hes not even a bad penetrator

sure he cant shoot but its nice to have a playmaking guard who isnt afraid to have the ball in his hands - aka frank


He makes nobody on the team better and pounds the ball until he can get a shot off at the rim.

If we’re going to suck then at least suck with somebody that fits in the backcourt next to RJ. You don’t resign somebody shooting 20 percent from 3 who’s ass without the ball
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#209 » by matchman » Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:26 am

The more he plays the higher pick we are getting, that's the only reason I could accept him back.

And with that role we also signed Austin Rivers, so it is now a high availability approach.


P.S. Actually if he comes back as a backup, I won't care as much. The actual worry is that this is Scott Perry's guy and that means Perry still have influence within the team, which is weird.
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#210 » by knicksNOTslick » Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:45 am

NoLayupRule wrote:im pretty surprised at the lack of love for Payton

hes a strong defender and playmaker
hes not even a bad penetrator

sure he cant shoot but its nice to have a playmaking guard who isnt afraid to have the ball in his hands - aka frank

Because we don't gain anything with Payton. He's not gonna improve, he is what he is. He's not part of the future and he's not bringing us wins in the present. He was the GM's failed lottery pick who keeps getting third, fourth chances to flourish when he is only a backup at best. The ship has sailed and he took away minutes from younger players that should have been developed.
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#211 » by cgmw » Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:17 am

knicksNOTslick wrote:
NoLayupRule wrote:im pretty surprised at the lack of love for Payton

hes a strong defender and playmaker
hes not even a bad penetrator

sure he cant shoot but its nice to have a playmaking guard who isnt afraid to have the ball in his hands - aka frank

Because we don't gain anything with Payton. He's not gonna improve, he is what he is. He's not part of the future and he's not bringing us wins in the present. He was the GM's failed lottery pick who keeps getting third, fourth chances to flourish when he is only a backup at best. The ship has sailed and he took away minutes from younger players that should have been developed.

Oh it’s far worse than that. Payton actively makes RJ, Mitch, Knox, Frank, DSJ, and probably Obi worse because of his tunnel vision for Randle (combined with his lack of shooting).

Worse still, the Payton-Randle combination is terrible enough to make us a lotto laughingstock but juuust good enough (for reasons mentioned by NLR) to finish in mid-lotto purgatory.

The only conceivable defense of this move is if he’s used as a 3rd stringer to provide continuity and moral support.
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#212 » by Bensational » Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:39 am

If Thibs can motivate Payton to play defense again then he'll be more appreciated. He was actually very good on that end his first two seasons, then Scott Skiles broke him. Payton really seemed to put up walls after that.

I really like the guy. I think he can make some really spectacular plays on offense, and he has the capacity to lead big charges. He seems to be becoming a more willing 3pt shooter, but he's got that Ben Simmons kind of complex about it now.

(Magic fan who still keeps tabs on Elfrid)
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#213 » by cgmw » Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:54 am

The toxic optics:

Dolan requires petty loyalty, so forces Thibs to keep Perry. Perry, in turn, requires petty ego indulgence, so convinces Thibs to bring back Payton.

By the transitive property of sh*t rolling downhill, Payton comes to symbolize the petty, delusional, toxic, incompetent cronyism that’s defined Dolan’s tenure at MSG.
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#214 » by justin12140 » Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:43 am

Bensational wrote:If Thibs can motivate Payton to play defense again then he'll be more appreciated. He was actually very good on that end his first two seasons, then Scott Skiles broke him. Payton really seemed to put up walls after that.

I really like the guy. I think he can make some really spectacular plays on offense, and he has the capacity to lead big charges. He seems to be becoming a more willing 3pt shooter, but he's got that Ben Simmons kind of complex about it now.

(Magic fan who still keeps tabs on Elfrid)

It’s because he has no confidence, rightly I might add, in his jumper. Us knick fans are very accustomed to guards that can’t shoot, but 20% from 3 & 57% from the line in your 6th year? Literally the worst shooter on the worst shooting team in the nba.

It has me wondering how long he’ll be able to stay in the league though. Like you said, he does do some things at a pretty high level. Unless his shooting makes a big leap this year though, it’s hard to imagine he’ll get anything more than a vet min going forward. It isn’t good when teams that desperately need PG play (Magic, Suns, NOLA, NY) give up on you
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#215 » by Ray Williams » Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:11 am

hundreth wrote:Frank was by far our best PG last season and it wasn't even close. The team always performed way better when he was out there on the court. And this is with him looking over his shoulder every minute to see if one of these bum ass coaches was going to pull him for a missed shot.

:clap:
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#216 » by Gravy » Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:24 am

Bensational wrote:If Thibs can motivate Payton to play defense again then he'll be more appreciated. He was actually very good on that end his first two seasons, then Scott Skiles broke him. Payton really seemed to put up walls after that.

I really like the guy. I think he can make some really spectacular plays on offense, and he has the capacity to lead big charges. He seems to be becoming a more willing 3pt shooter, but he's got that Ben Simmons kind of complex about it now.

(Magic fan who still keeps tabs on Elfrid)

He's a solid backup pg that isnt a good shooter which the Knicks really need. Unfortunately he's by far the best pg on the team last year which means he had to play more minutes than he should and his flaws get exposed more.

Not sure how Thibs plans to use him, my guess is he's insurance in case the other point guards are terrible again.
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#217 » by Ray Williams » Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:01 am

NoLayupRule wrote:im pretty surprised at the lack of love for Payton

hes a strong defender and playmaker
hes not even a bad penetrator

sure he cant shoot but its nice to have a playmaking guard who isnt afraid to have the ball in his hands - aka frank

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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#218 » by br7knicks » Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:53 pm

cgmw wrote:
knicksNOTslick wrote:
NoLayupRule wrote:im pretty surprised at the lack of love for Payton

hes a strong defender and playmaker
hes not even a bad penetrator

sure he cant shoot but its nice to have a playmaking guard who isnt afraid to have the ball in his hands - aka frank

Because we don't gain anything with Payton. He's not gonna improve, he is what he is. He's not part of the future and he's not bringing us wins in the present. He was the GM's failed lottery pick who keeps getting third, fourth chances to flourish when he is only a backup at best. The ship has sailed and he took away minutes from younger players that should have been developed.

Oh it’s far worse than that. Payton actively makes RJ, Mitch, Knox, Frank, DSJ, and probably Obi worse because of his tunnel vision for Randle (combined with his lack of shooting).

Worse still, the Payton-Randle combination is terrible enough to make us a lotto laughingstock but juuust good enough (for reasons mentioned by NLR) to finish in mid-lotto purgatory.

The only conceivable defense of this move is if he’s used as a 3rd stringer to provide continuity and moral support.


this. he won't work with anyone but randle.
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#219 » by thebuzzardman » Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:51 pm

Elfrid Payton is the best basketball player on the Knicks.
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Re: Elfrid back and I hate everything. 

Post#220 » by thebuzzardman » Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:54 pm

Knick fans hate talent. Randle and Elf best 2 man combination, best 2 players on Knicks, HANDS DOWN!
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