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2020 Presidential Election Thread presents: The Aftermath (Part 2)

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Re: 2020 Presidential Election Thread presents: The Aftermath (Part 2) 

Post#1641 » by dakomish23 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:25 pm

Read on Twitter
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election Thread presents: The Aftermath (Part 2) 

Post#1642 » by KnicksGod » Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:19 pm

<Presidential Schedule>
*Wednesday, January 13, 2021*

-- TV Day --
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election Thread presents: The Aftermath (Part 2) 

Post#1643 » by KnicksGod » Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:27 pm

CNN saying that Mitch could bring back Senate fast and remove him. Trump a sub-1-termer.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election Thread presents: The Aftermath (Part 2) 

Post#1644 » by Zenzibar » Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:31 pm

No matter if removed from office, it won't change a thing. The hate for non-whites has been woven into the fabric of America since the beginning, just ask our Native Americans. This attitude came from the colonialist Europeans and seep into this land.

Do what you want with Trump, but the grass has been cut, the snakes and hate exposed. Too much attention is being paid to Trump and not enough on the pillar of racism and superiority egoism that this Nation has been built upon.

Now one has to look at their white, black or legal/non-legal immigrant neighbor and wonder to oneself "do you really really like me?"
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election Thread presents: The Aftermath (Part 2) 

Post#1645 » by stuporman » Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:01 pm

Jeff Van Gully wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
1. Nordic Democratic Socialist countries are great. Check.


not arguing against democratic socialism here. i supported bernie and elizabeth warren in the primaries. just pointing out that those are not good comparisons for our context. much smaller and far more homogenous societies at play. much easier to manage and apply the tenets there. the US is a true unwieldy monster. i'd love to see some detailed proposals on how it would look for us that go beyond the ideology, which i like.


This critique is disingenuous when you consider how many countries across the world have varying degrees of social democracy and social programs with a wide array of demographics. Besides, the US had it's most robust economic growth and expansion of individual wealth in the 'socialist' new deal era of it's history.

It only has been eroded away through decades of incremental legislation and a dedicated effort to demonize the words socialism/communism. So anytime there is something that they don't want the media and politicians who are in their pocket just scream socialism. The truth is we are already in a social democracy in the US it's just that the media and politicians don't call it that.

The problem is the social programs go to corporations and the wealthy. They get the tax breaks, the subsidies, the loan programs and loan forgiveness, bloated government contracts and most of the public money benefits without a second thought and framed as 'capitalist'. Any scraps tossed to the average people are framed as evil socialism and constantly asked how are we going to pay for this.

I won't even get into how much of a lie it is when they ask how do we pay for it because it's a complicated explanation I have given in previous 'presidential election' threads. A robust social safety net and programs that help everyone would actually elevate the whole society lifting the 'floor' of every citizen and raising the potential 'ceiling' of them as well to use a sports analogy.

But your demographic point is addressed in why there is so much resistance to it now even though it worked so well in the new deal era. The wealthy in the US are predominantly white and many are racists who don't want to help communities that aren't white. Let's not forget how racist the new deal was even if it was beneficial, anyone who wasn't white was excluded from the benefits of it.

So when people whine about how it won't work in the US because of the wide demographics are consciously or unconsciously using the racist reasoning against it. It's not that it won't work because of the demographics, it would work and does around the world, it's that they don't want to do it because of demographics, they don't want to help minorities.

I'm not accusing you of being racist for bringing that up...I'm just pointing out the source and reasoning of the argument against it and how much nonsense it is so you may prefer to expose it and not employ it. The diversity in colors of skin or cultural and ethnic backgrounds in no way prevents something that works in every corner of the world from working in the US.

To be fair, socialism isn't the government doing stuff, socialism is workers owning the means of production. It's worker co-ops, employee owned businesses, worker unions, employee profit sharing corporations, employee share compensation...things like that. The conflation of socialism and government social programs to mean the same thing is actually an erroneous one.

That was another thing the propaganda campaign did, misinform about what these things are and also convince the average person that to educate themselves about it is evil elitist indoctrination. What these words really mean, the ideas they represent and application of them in the market and society around us has been so obscured it's virtually impossible to have any discourse about it.

Strong worker protections and programs in the marketplace aren't in the interest of capitalists, they don't want to work for their money, they want others to work for their money and do it for very little money. Capitalists even prefer to have everyone who isn't them on a week to week basis of survival because it puts them in peril every moment and they can exploit it.

The social programs we are talking about actually put a buffer between the worker and this peril and that isn't something the wealthy want. They want a desperate worker not one that has any power at all. If the worker has health care without the dictates of the employer or they can get an education without having to be in debt for decades then the worker is less desperate.

The capitalists own the media and politicians so they get to create the dominant narrative about these social programs and they will do everything they can to keep them from coming to be. It's only been the advent of the internet that the discourse has been freed up to explore these ideas outside of the control of the wealthy, the corporations and the politicians.

I'm here discussing these things with you and you can present these points to others then them to even more with very little interference from those that don't want us to share or understand them. Then we need to elect people who represent these concepts and policies so they can become a reality for us.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election Thread presents: The Aftermath (Part 2) 

Post#1646 » by Handledatruth » Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:31 pm

Zenzibar wrote:No matter if removed from office, it won't change a thing. The hate for non-whites has been woven into the fabric of America since the beginning, just ask the Native Americans. This attitude came from the colonialist Europeans and seep into this land.

Do what you want with Trump, but the grass has been cut, the snakes and hate exposed. Too much attention is being paid to Trump and not enough on the pillar of racism and superiority egoism that this Nation has been built upon.

Now one has to look at their white, black or legal/non-legal immigrant neighbor and wonder to oneself "do you really really like me?"


The racial tension will always be in play and as you said it is a fundamental part of American culture. However, in this scenario, removing Trump from office and barring him from American politics moving forward sends a very strong message and establishes that there is a line that shouldn't be crossed. Having this line established will be important for future presidential candidates with bad intentions like Ted Cruz.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election Thread presents: The Aftermath (Part 2) 

Post#1647 » by Zenzibar » Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:37 pm

Handledatruth wrote:
Zenzibar wrote:No matter if removed from office, it won't change a thing. The hate for non-whites has been woven into the fabric of America since the beginning, just ask the Native Americans. This attitude came from the colonialist Europeans and seep into this land.

Do what you want with Trump, but the grass has been cut, the snakes and hate exposed. Too much attention is being paid to Trump and not enough on the pillar of racism and superiority egoism that this Nation has been built upon.

Now one has to look at their white, black or legal/non-legal immigrant neighbor and wonder to oneself "do you really really like me?"


The racial tension will always be in play and as you said it is a fundamental part of American culture. However, in this scenario, removing Trump from office and barring him from American politics moving forward sends a very strong message and establishes that there is a line that shouldn't be crossed. Having this line established will be important for future presidential candidates with bad intentions like Ted Cruz.



That's a great post and see your point. In that case it does set a precedence for future potential POTUS.

It's just sad that you have just south of 50% of Americans in line with Trump and to the allegiance of those who ran amuck in DC.
And what if one day in the next 50 for some of the top generals to take sides with such a POTUS and turn this country into a South American junta? Or a repeat of the civil war.

Is it really that far-fetched?
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election Thread presents: The Aftermath (Part 2) 

Post#1648 » by dakomish23 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:46 pm

Read on Twitter
:lol: :lol: :lol:

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1592147&start=1720#p57345128
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election Thread presents: The Aftermath (Part 2) 

Post#1649 » by Jeff Van Gully » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:37 pm

stuporman wrote:
Jeff Van Gully wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
1. Nordic Democratic Socialist countries are great. Check.


not arguing against democratic socialism here. i supported bernie and elizabeth warren in the primaries. just pointing out that those are not good comparisons for our context. much smaller and far more homogenous societies at play. much easier to manage and apply the tenets there. the US is a true unwieldy monster. i'd love to see some detailed proposals on how it would look for us that go beyond the ideology, which i like.


This critique is disingenuous when you consider how many countries across the world have varying degrees of social democracy and social programs with a wide array of demographics. Besides, the US had it's most robust economic growth and expansion of individual wealth in the 'socialist' new deal era of it's history.

It only has been eroded away through decades of incremental legislation and a dedicated effort to demonize the words socialism/communism. So anytime there is something that they don't want the media and politicians who are in their pocket just scream socialism. The truth is we are already in a social democracy in the US it's just that the media and politicians don't call it that.

The problem is the social programs go to corporations and the wealthy. They get the tax breaks, the subsidies, the loan programs and loan forgiveness, bloated government contracts and most of the public money benefits without a second thought and framed as 'capitalist'. Any scraps tossed to the average people are framed as evil socialism and constantly asked how are we going to pay for this.

I won't even get into how much of a lie it is when they ask how do we pay for it because it's a complicated explanation I have given in previous 'presidential election' threads. A robust social safety net and programs that help everyone would actually elevate the whole society lifting the 'floor' of every citizen and raising the potential 'ceiling' of them as well to use a sports analogy.

But your demographic point is addressed in why there is so much resistance to it now even though it worked so well in the new deal era. The wealthy in the US are predominantly white and many are racists who don't want to help communities that aren't white. Let's not forget how racist the new deal was even if it was beneficial, anyone who wasn't white was excluded from the benefits of it.

So when people whine about how it won't work in the US because of the wide demographics are consciously or unconsciously using the racist reasoning against it. It's not that it won't work because of the demographics, it would work and does around the world, it's that they don't want to do it because of demographics, they don't want to help minorities.

I'm not accusing you of being racist for bringing that up...I'm just pointing out the source and reasoning of the argument against it and how much nonsense it is so you may prefer to expose it and not employ it. The diversity in colors of skin or cultural and ethnic backgrounds in no way prevents something that works in every corner of the world from working in the US.

To be fair, socialism isn't the government doing stuff, socialism is workers owning the means of production. It's worker co-ops, employee owned businesses, worker unions, employee profit sharing corporations, employee share compensation...things like that. The conflation of socialism and government social programs to mean the same thing is actually an erroneous one.


That was another thing the propaganda campaign did, misinform about what these things are and also convince the average person that to educate themselves about it is evil elitist indoctrination. What these words really mean, the ideas they represent and application of them in the market and society around us has been so obscured it's virtually impossible to have any discourse about it.

Strong worker protections and programs in the marketplace aren't in the interest of capitalists, they don't want to work for their money, they want others to work for their money and do it for very little money. Capitalists even prefer to have everyone who isn't them on a week to week basis of survival because it puts them in peril every moment and they can exploit it.

The social programs we are talking about actually put a buffer between the worker and this peril and that isn't something the wealthy want. They want a desperate worker not one that has any power at all. If the worker has health care without the dictates of the employer or they can get an education without having to be in debt for decades then the worker is less desperate.

The capitalists own the media and politicians so they get to create the dominant narrative about these social programs and they will do everything they can to keep them from coming to be. It's only been the advent of the internet that the discourse has been freed up to explore these ideas outside of the control of the wealthy, the corporations and the politicians.

I'm here discussing these things with you and you can present these points to others then them to even more with very little interference from those that don't want us to share or understand them. Then we need to elect people who represent these concepts and policies so they can become a reality for us.


thanks for the discussion. i appreciate it. it's helpful to arm me when i end up in these kinds of conversations in which i am clearly outside of my depth. again, as i think you get, it's something i want. i also agree that the demographics shouldn't matter as much we we say. i believe in the main point very firmly, but have been down rabbit holes i couldn't find my way out of -- especially in the context of healthcare.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election Thread presents: The Aftermath (Part 2) 

Post#1650 » by KnicksGod » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:45 pm

If McConnell called emergency session, it'd be clear Trump about to be removed. That could create a dangerous interceding time with Trump in White House. Now Trump leaves and doesn't know for sure if he'll be convicted or barred after his term. Less sure of the consequences and therefore perhaps an easier comedown.

I do think McConnell is going to convict.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election Thread presents: The Aftermath (Part 2) 

Post#1651 » by Handledatruth » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:56 pm

Zenzibar wrote:
Handledatruth wrote:
Zenzibar wrote:No matter if removed from office, it won't change a thing. The hate for non-whites has been woven into the fabric of America since the beginning, just ask the Native Americans. This attitude came from the colonialist Europeans and seep into this land.

Do what you want with Trump, but the grass has been cut, the snakes and hate exposed. Too much attention is being paid to Trump and not enough on the pillar of racism and superiority egoism that this Nation has been built upon.

Now one has to look at their white, black or legal/non-legal immigrant neighbor and wonder to oneself "do you really really like me?"


The racial tension will always be in play and as you said it is a fundamental part of American culture. However, in this scenario, removing Trump from office and barring him from American politics moving forward sends a very strong message and establishes that there is a line that shouldn't be crossed. Having this line established will be important for future presidential candidates with bad intentions like Ted Cruz.



That's a great post and see your point. In that case it does set a precedence for future potential POTUS.

It's just sad that you have just south of 50% of Americans in line with Trump and to the allegiance of those who ran amuck in DC.
And what if one day in the next 50 for some of the top generals to take sides with such a POTUS and turn this country into a South American junta? Or a repeat of the civil war.

Is it really that far-fetched?


Not at all. Fortunately, we had top generals, federal/state/local judges, and the Senate hold the line when democracy was attacked by right wing extremism. That being said, I'm very sure that a Trump 2024 run would stir up those same passions. Using the laws in the Constitution to cripple his political career is the best chess move Congress can make and it would also be justified.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election Thread presents: The Aftermath (Part 2) 

Post#1652 » by Zenzibar » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:00 pm

Handledatruth wrote:
Zenzibar wrote:
Handledatruth wrote:
The racial tension will always be in play and as you said it is a fundamental part of American culture. However, in this scenario, removing Trump from office and barring him from American politics moving forward sends a very strong message and establishes that there is a line that shouldn't be crossed. Having this line established will be important for future presidential candidates with bad intentions like Ted Cruz.



That's a great post and see your point. In that case it does set a precedence for future potential POTUS.

It's just sad that you have just south of 50% of Americans in line with Trump and to the allegiance of those who ran amuck in DC.
And what if one day in the next 50 for some of the top generals to take sides with such a POTUS and turn this country into a South American junta? Or a repeat of the civil war.

Is it really that far-fetched?


Not at all. Fortunately, we had top generals, federal/state/local judges, and the Senate hold the line when democracy was attacked by right wing extremism. That being said, I'm very sure that a Trump 2024 run would stir up those same passions. Using the laws in the Constitution to cripple his political career is the best chess move Congress can make and it would also be justified.


Excellent point, 1 Trump turd, I mean term was cringe-worthy enough.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election Thread presents: The Aftermath (Part 2) 

Post#1653 » by dakomish23 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:06 pm

DAMN

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Re: 2020 Presidential Election Thread presents: The Aftermath (Part 2) 

Post#1654 » by Guano » Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:30 pm

been awhile since I got my B in philosophy101 but isn't this a No True Scotsman?

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Re: 2020 Presidential Election Thread presents: The Aftermath (Part 2) 

Post#1655 » by Capn'O » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:01 am

Zenzibar wrote:No matter if removed from office, it won't change a thing. The hate for non-whites has been woven into the fabric of America since the beginning, just ask our Native Americans. This attitude came from the colonialist Europeans and seep into this land.

Do what you want with Trump, but the grass has been cut, the snakes and hate exposed. Too much attention is being paid to Trump and not enough on the pillar of racism and superiority egoism that this Nation has been built upon.

Now one has to look at their white, black or legal/non-legal immigrant neighbor and wonder to oneself "do you really really like me?"


Removing him won't make the problem go away but he's the head of that snake right now. Gave the green light for the insurgency and basically helped coordinate it. Along with everything else. Cutting off the head matters. Minutes of his power may matter.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election Thread presents: The Aftermath (Part 2) 

Post#1656 » by HarthorneWingo » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:17 am

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Re: 2020 Presidential Election Thread presents: The Aftermath (Part 2) 

Post#1657 » by HarthorneWingo » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:25 am

Oh yeah

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Re: 2020 Presidential Election Thread presents: The Aftermath (Part 2) 

Post#1658 » by HarthorneWingo » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:31 am

Zenzibar wrote:No matter if removed from office, it won't change a thing. The hate for non-whites has been woven into the fabric of America since the beginning, just ask our Native Americans. This attitude came from the colonialist Europeans and seep into this land.

Do what you want with Trump, but the grass has been cut, the snakes and hate exposed. Too much attention is being paid to Trump and not enough on the pillar of racism and superiority egoism that this Nation has been built upon.

Now one has to look at their white, black or legal/non-legal immigrant neighbor and wonder to oneself "do you really really like me?"


True. We been pitted against each other by what all Republicans and a lot of Democrats have described in terms of a zero sum game. It's so funny to now watch the Republicans play the Debt/Deficit Card as soon as they're done with all of their tax cuts and corporate hand outs and unending wars.

Maybe if we expanded the size of the pie for working people instead of the rich, the "disaffected" white worker won't feel like the Black or Latino worker is taking money from his family? Just spitballing. Thoughts?
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election Thread presents: The Aftermath (Part 2) 

Post#1659 » by Zenzibar » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:59 am

HarthorneWingo wrote:
Zenzibar wrote:No matter if removed from office, it won't change a thing. The hate for non-whites has been woven into the fabric of America since the beginning, just ask our Native Americans. This attitude came from the colonialist Europeans and seep into this land.

Do what you want with Trump, but the grass has been cut, the snakes and hate exposed. Too much attention is being paid to Trump and not enough on the pillar of racism and superiority egoism that this Nation has been built upon.

Now one has to look at their white, black or legal/non-legal immigrant neighbor and wonder to oneself "do you really really like me?"


True. We been pitted against each other by what all Republicans and a lot of Democrats have described in terms of a zero sum game. It's so funny to now watch the Republicans play the Debt/Deficit Card as soon as they're done with all of their tax cuts and corporate hand outs and unending wars.

Maybe if we expanded the size of the pie for working people instead of the rich, the "disaffected" white worker won't feel like the Black or Latino worker is taking money from his family? Just spitballing. Thoughts?


My thoughts ae that the best way to expand the size of the pie is to be smarter, brighter, more focused and generally brighter.

Read more, stay off any addictions including social media, look toward meditation or spirituality Are but a few examples from me on how to do it.
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Re: 2020 Presidential Election Thread presents: The Aftermath (Part 2) 

Post#1660 » by dakomish23 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:40 am

HarthorneWingo wrote:Oh yeah

Read on Twitter
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Read on Twitter
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https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1592147&start=1720#p57345128

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