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PG: Knicks-Thunder

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Re: PG: Knicks-Thunder 

Post#321 » by prophet_of_rage » Sat Jan 9, 2021 8:43 pm

god shammgod wrote:
Read on Twitter
We only make exceptions for Payton. Small sample size otherwise.

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Re: PG: Knicks-Thunder 

Post#322 » by prophet_of_rage » Sat Jan 9, 2021 8:44 pm

god shammgod wrote:
Read on Twitter
So point guard play isn't the issue?

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Re: PG: Knicks-Thunder 

Post#323 » by prophet_of_rage » Sat Jan 9, 2021 8:46 pm

Phish Tank wrote:
god shammgod wrote:
Phish Tank wrote:
some of the other names in that list surprise me.


simmons is surprising most of all to me. because if he's inefficient there he's not much use on offense at all.


I'm surprised CP3 is so low and didn't think Trae would be this low either.

Didn't realize Mitchell's shooting sub 40% this season.
They're small guards who have to circus shots in there. CP3, Trae, Donovan are all sub 6'3. Donovan and CP3 probably sub 6. They are shooting in traffic.

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Re: PG: Knicks-Thunder 

Post#324 » by prophet_of_rage » Sat Jan 9, 2021 8:47 pm

HEZI wrote:
DowNY wrote:
HEZI wrote:The excuses for RJ are ridiculous. RJ needs to be better, simple and plain. He needs to improve his iso game, simple and plain.

Do you know who Caris Lavert's PG was last night when he dropped 43? Nobody, he had none, yet still found a way to score 43 on 23 shots.

RJ needs to be better, he needs to be held accountable for his play, it's nobody's fault and he just needs to be better.

Lavert is older than Julius
RJ is 6 years younger
I’m sure RJ can find a way to drop 43 on 23 shots at that age with that experience too. Lavert wasn’t doing that at an early age in the NBA.
Like I said, RJ is a on a Jalen Brown trajectory. Demanding that he just becomes consistent and extra efficient is just a big hope.


I'm not knocking RJ's potential, I'm high on his potential so by the time he's in his mid 20s I do expect him to be a much better player than he is today but the excuses for why he's terrible right now isn't as simple as saying he needs somebody to get him the ball in better spots. RJ gets plenty of good looks, he gets plenty of wide open opportunities that he simply can't capitalize on. Can't rely on him to be a go to guy as a wing player and then expect every single shot of his to be spoon fed. With all the attention Randle receives I've seen RJ get good open looks over and over again and he just can't knock them down. Even his bread and butter mid range shots he can't hit them consistently so what kind of shots do we give him then? Yeah he likes to hit the paint and attack inside, the spacing isn't ideal and he could benefit some from less traffic on the interior but still we can't make excuses for him after every bad game because he also plays with the same guys on those nights when he's dropping 25 and actually shows the ability to knock down those very same shots like his games against Indiana for example. RJ is just really inconsistent and that's something we have to hold him accountable for and not point fingers at everybody else.
Facts

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Re: PG: Knicks-Thunder 

Post#325 » by prophet_of_rage » Sat Jan 9, 2021 8:49 pm

F N 11 wrote:
knickstape4ever wrote:Quickley uses his floater from too far out. he needs to learn to pull up in the mid-range

Should of started to start the season. Now he’s not playing so well. Can blame Thibs for a lot of bad but also a lot of good. Shooters need to play over Payton.
He isn't close to ready. And he isn't knockdown yet.

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Re: PG: Knicks-Thunder 

Post#326 » by HighRyzer83 » Sat Jan 9, 2021 9:04 pm

prophet_of_rage wrote:
knicks94 wrote:How do we beat the Bucks, Pacers and the Jazz, but look awful against the Craptors and OKC?
OKC has young legs that aren't run into the grpund. Seemed like they could match and exceed our pace.

And maybe we are a road team that is better without distractions who got hot at the right times.

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I think that thibs running them into the ground is a hyperbole at best. If a 20 year old supposed star can't play 6 minutes more than the average starter, that's hardly the coach's fault.
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Re: PG: Knicks-Thunder 

Post#327 » by Clyde_Style » Sat Jan 9, 2021 9:11 pm

prophet_of_rage wrote:
Phish Tank wrote:
god shammgod wrote:
Read on Twitter


the one thing he can do too


some of the other names in that list surprise me.
They shouldn't. A bunch of guards with suspect jumpshots or who are short (like Paul)

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Seeing Simmons on that list suprises me. How can he be a high value player if that's his conversion rate since he can't shoot at all?
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Re: PG: Knicks-Thunder 

Post#328 » by FutureKnicksGM » Sat Jan 9, 2021 9:15 pm

god shammgod wrote:
Read on Twitter

Randle not even on the floor to blame him for this.
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Re: PG: Knicks-Thunder 

Post#329 » by FutureKnicksGM » Sat Jan 9, 2021 9:21 pm

F N 11 wrote:RJ looks lost being relegated to spot up shooter. It’s not rocket science. Put shooters around he and Randle. Payton and Bullock are not shooters...

Rather start Knox and Rivers right now.

He doesn't look lost. He's getting plenty of shots all over the court, he just looks bad shooting like crap.
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Re: PG: Knicks-Thunder 

Post#330 » by prophet_of_rage » Sat Jan 9, 2021 9:24 pm

BugginOut wrote:The problem with RJ is that he should be playing a smaller role, taking less but more efficient shots. Right now he's leading the league in minutes and its probably hurting his efficiency and shot selection. As I mentioned before Thibs is using RJ how he was using Jimmy Butler on those Bulls teams.

Here is RJ's first season compared to Jimmy Butler's 2nd season (Which is the first time Jimmy got consistent minutes)
https://stathead.com/tiny/KwKlc

Now here are both their stats the next year where both were leading the league in minutes
https://stathead.com/tiny/Ppuge

Pretty interesting how their efficiency decreases. Now I actually did some more digging and I'm starting to realize a pattern with Thibs. He always has a player whose efficiency suffers, by playing the most minutes in the NBA.

Luol Deng averaged 47% from the field his first seven years in the NBA

Here are his stats compared to RJ this season from the two season where he lead the league in minutes per game (made allstar team both years):
https://stathead.com/tiny/S7kbA

So if we take the Bulls teams as a template, Thibs always has one guy who he works as a dog in exchange for team success. Also it seems that once you get over that 38 minute mark, it is where your production starts to really decrease that basically your per 36 numbers remain the same, but your efficiency goes down. Between 36 to 37 minutes you are usually fine, as that is what Jimmy played on the Timberwolves and his efficiency remained solid

I don't know the purpose of it, but it seems to get results for Thibs. The real question is whether it is good for the development of RJ. Jimmy went on to become Jimmy, but Deng fell off a cliff after he turned 30. Also since RJ is so young it might be worse. Jimmy and Deng were 24 and 26 respectively when they led the league in minutes.

RJ might be picking up on bad habits due to playing poor basketball while lethargic. He can't drive with the same energy so his finishing ability decreases. Shooting form is also the first thing to go when you are tired, since you can't get the lift in your legs. He just got a new shooting form, so taking all these shots while tired could end up destroying his muscle memory he built up over the summer. Plus with the shortened season there are less two days breaks between games, we haven't had more than one day off since the season started.

So if this the best way to develop RJ or should Thibs adjust?
Thibs is old school. Like D'Antoni he rides certain guys because he knows they get results. He isn't that into efficiency numbers. His sabbaticals were spent learning offence and introducing himself to analytics.

RJ just isn't good enough to be that guy for Thibs but no one on this team is.

Is it best for his development? No. But we have no other choice because there isn't better and this is our coach.

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Re: PG: Knicks-Thunder 

Post#331 » by rajajackal » Sat Jan 9, 2021 9:25 pm

let's be honest here. the issue with RJ is completely different than last season, where i felt he wasn't to blame for many of his struggles. i think he looked better last season, making smart plays, moving the ball. he's become a black hole. he gets the ball and i know he's going to try to score. that is not going to work. that's kevin seraphim ****. that's 2019-20 julius randle ****. he needs to take a step back, not a stepback
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Re: PG: Knicks-Thunder 

Post#332 » by prophet_of_rage » Sat Jan 9, 2021 9:25 pm

robillionaire wrote:i have concerns that we will have to max out RJ because he will be putting up numbers but they will be so inefficient and not really contributing to winning that it will end up being a really bad contract. of course he has 2 and a half years to improve his game but as of right now he's looking like a wiggins type deal waiting to happen, except his FG% is so absurdly low wiggins looks amazing in comparison.

dude is shooting 38% from the field and 21% from 3. Far worse than last year. I don't even think he should be starting unless they decide to change things up and change his role in the offense. His shooting percentages are grotesque and he's playing far and away the most minutes of anybody in the NBA at 38.8 mpg

I don't know why he gets a pass for this when any other young player on this team shooting 38% and 21% would be getting eviscerated instead of having every excuse made for it, that's the only reason I bring it up, it's a problem and we still aren't ready for that conversation yet
This board has Payton as its villain currently. Once that villain is vanquished then RJ will get it. One thing at a time.

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Re: PG: Knicks-Thunder 

Post#333 » by BugginOut » Sat Jan 9, 2021 9:38 pm

prophet_of_rage wrote:
BugginOut wrote:The problem with RJ is that he should be playing a smaller role, taking less but more efficient shots. Right now he's leading the league in minutes and its probably hurting his efficiency and shot selection. As I mentioned before Thibs is using RJ how he was using Jimmy Butler on those Bulls teams.

Here is RJ's first season compared to Jimmy Butler's 2nd season (Which is the first time Jimmy got consistent minutes)
https://stathead.com/tiny/KwKlc

Now here are both their stats the next year where both were leading the league in minutes
https://stathead.com/tiny/Ppuge

Pretty interesting how their efficiency decreases. Now I actually did some more digging and I'm starting to realize a pattern with Thibs. He always has a player whose efficiency suffers, by playing the most minutes in the NBA.

Luol Deng averaged 47% from the field his first seven years in the NBA

Here are his stats compared to RJ this season from the two season where he lead the league in minutes per game (made allstar team both years):
https://stathead.com/tiny/S7kbA

So if we take the Bulls teams as a template, Thibs always has one guy who he works as a dog in exchange for team success. Also it seems that once you get over that 38 minute mark, it is where your production starts to really decrease that basically your per 36 numbers remain the same, but your efficiency goes down. Between 36 to 37 minutes you are usually fine, as that is what Jimmy played on the Timberwolves and his efficiency remained solid

I don't know the purpose of it, but it seems to get results for Thibs. The real question is whether it is good for the development of RJ. Jimmy went on to become Jimmy, but Deng fell off a cliff after he turned 30. Also since RJ is so young it might be worse. Jimmy and Deng were 24 and 26 respectively when they led the league in minutes.

RJ might be picking up on bad habits due to playing poor basketball while lethargic. He can't drive with the same energy so his finishing ability decreases. Shooting form is also the first thing to go when you are tired, since you can't get the lift in your legs. He just got a new shooting form, so taking all these shots while tired could end up destroying his muscle memory he built up over the summer. Plus with the shortened season there are less two days breaks between games, we haven't had more than one day off since the season started.

So if this the best way to develop RJ or should Thibs adjust?
Thibs is old school. Like D'Antoni he rides certain guys because he knows they get results. He isn't that into efficiency numbers. His sabbaticals were spent learning offence and introducing himself to analytics.

RJ just isn't good enough to be that guy for Thibs but no one on this team is.

Is it best for his development? No. But we have no other choice because there isn't better and this is our coach.

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Yeah I agree. I think Thibs will just ride RJ this season. I don't think RJ's efficiency numbers will be that good, but if we are winning games I think it will be good for his long term development. I just used Deng and Butler as an example, because they played the same role in a Thibs system and produced similar shooting numbers, while being 5 years older, and no called them bust. People might argue that Deng and Butler were better defenders, but RJ has been pretty good on defense this year, and his rebounding and assist numbers dwarf what those guys were putting on those teams.

I think his 3PT shooting is better than he has showed so far and I'm confident as he gets adjusted to the offense and when Burks comes back and RJ can get more rest, his % all around will start to look better. People right now are just looking for RJ to be a shot creator, but his role right now is a hustle/glue guy.
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Re: PG: Knicks-Thunder 

Post#334 » by prophet_of_rage » Sat Jan 9, 2021 9:46 pm

Clyde_Style wrote:
prophet_of_rage wrote:
Phish Tank wrote:
some of the other names in that list surprise me.
They shouldn't. A bunch of guards with suspect jumpshots or who are short (like Paul)

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Seeing Simmons on that list suprises me. How can he be a high value player if that's his conversion rate since he can't shoot at all?
Because there is more to the game than true shooting percentage. Simmons is a bull who gets past the front line and forces you to challenge him with rim protection. So he is shooting against collapsed defences. And he is shooting enough to keep those defences collapsing which opens his passing game. And that is where his value comes in. That and his defence.

They've conned fans into thinking shooting is the only.measure of a player. It decidedly isn't.



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Re: PG: Knicks-Thunder 

Post#335 » by Clyde_Style » Sat Jan 9, 2021 10:05 pm

prophet_of_rage wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:
prophet_of_rage wrote:They shouldn't. A bunch of guards with suspect jumpshots or who are short (like Paul)

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Seeing Simmons on that list suprises me. How can he be a high value player if that's his conversion rate since he can't shoot at all?
Because there is more to the game than true shooting percentage. Simmons is a bull who gets past the front line and forces you to challenge him with rim protection. So he is shooting against collapsed defences. And he is shooting enough to keep those defences collapsing which opens his passing game. And that is where his value comes in. That and his defence.

They've conned fans into thinking shooting is the only.measure of a player. It decidedly isn't.



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I don't believe shooting is only measure. Was just surprised that he was not converting at the rim at a higher rate. He's a long dude.
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Re: PG: Knicks-Thunder 

Post#336 » by Reign23 » Sat Jan 9, 2021 10:08 pm

btw if we don't tank for Suggs/Cade, you know who will be the starting PG next season.
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Re: PG: Knicks-Thunder 

Post#337 » by prophet_of_rage » Sat Jan 9, 2021 10:15 pm

Clyde_Style wrote:
prophet_of_rage wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:
Seeing Simmons on that list suprises me. How can he be a high value player if that's his conversion rate since he can't shoot at all?
Because there is more to the game than true shooting percentage. Simmons is a bull who gets past the front line and forces you to challenge him with rim protection. So he is shooting against collapsed defences. And he is shooting enough to keep those defences collapsing which opens his passing game. And that is where his value comes in. That and his defence.

They've conned fans into thinking shooting is the only.measure of a player. It decidedly isn't.



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I don't believe shooting is only measure. Was just surprised that he was not converting at the rim at a higher rate. He's a long dude.
He gets heavily contested.

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Re: PG: Knicks-Thunder 

Post#338 » by prophet_of_rage » Sat Jan 9, 2021 10:17 pm

BugginOut wrote:
prophet_of_rage wrote:
BugginOut wrote:The problem with RJ is that he should be playing a smaller role, taking less but more efficient shots. Right now he's leading the league in minutes and its probably hurting his efficiency and shot selection. As I mentioned before Thibs is using RJ how he was using Jimmy Butler on those Bulls teams.

Here is RJ's first season compared to Jimmy Butler's 2nd season (Which is the first time Jimmy got consistent minutes)
https://stathead.com/tiny/KwKlc

Now here are both their stats the next year where both were leading the league in minutes
https://stathead.com/tiny/Ppuge

Pretty interesting how their efficiency decreases. Now I actually did some more digging and I'm starting to realize a pattern with Thibs. He always has a player whose efficiency suffers, by playing the most minutes in the NBA.

Luol Deng averaged 47% from the field his first seven years in the NBA

Here are his stats compared to RJ this season from the two season where he lead the league in minutes per game (made allstar team both years):
https://stathead.com/tiny/S7kbA

So if we take the Bulls teams as a template, Thibs always has one guy who he works as a dog in exchange for team success. Also it seems that once you get over that 38 minute mark, it is where your production starts to really decrease that basically your per 36 numbers remain the same, but your efficiency goes down. Between 36 to 37 minutes you are usually fine, as that is what Jimmy played on the Timberwolves and his efficiency remained solid

I don't know the purpose of it, but it seems to get results for Thibs. The real question is whether it is good for the development of RJ. Jimmy went on to become Jimmy, but Deng fell off a cliff after he turned 30. Also since RJ is so young it might be worse. Jimmy and Deng were 24 and 26 respectively when they led the league in minutes.

RJ might be picking up on bad habits due to playing poor basketball while lethargic. He can't drive with the same energy so his finishing ability decreases. Shooting form is also the first thing to go when you are tired, since you can't get the lift in your legs. He just got a new shooting form, so taking all these shots while tired could end up destroying his muscle memory he built up over the summer. Plus with the shortened season there are less two days breaks between games, we haven't had more than one day off since the season started.

So if this the best way to develop RJ or should Thibs adjust?
Thibs is old school. Like D'Antoni he rides certain guys because he knows they get results. He isn't that into efficiency numbers. His sabbaticals were spent learning offence and introducing himself to analytics.

RJ just isn't good enough to be that guy for Thibs but no one on this team is.

Is it best for his development? No. But we have no other choice because there isn't better and this is our coach.

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Yeah I agree. I think Thibs will just ride RJ this season. I don't think RJ's efficiency numbers will be that good, but if we are winning games I think it will be good for his long term development. I just used Deng and Butler as an example, because they played the same role in a Thibs system and produced similar shooting numbers, while being 5 years older, and no called them bust. People might argue that Deng and Butler were better defenders, but RJ has been pretty good on defense this year, and his rebounding and assist numbers dwarf what those guys were putting on those teams.

I think his 3PT shooting is better than he has showed so far and I'm confident as he gets adjusted to the offense and when Burks comes back and RJ can get more rest, his % all around will start to look better. People right now are just looking for RJ to be a shot creator, but his role right now is a hustle/glue guy.
This is Van Gundy tree thinking. Your do it all stays on the floor forever. Van Gundy did this with Sprewell, playing him 40 minutes. I think one year he played 43.

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Re: PG: Knicks-Thunder 

Post#339 » by prophet_of_rage » Sat Jan 9, 2021 10:56 pm

My only fear about these Knicks is that the offence is really Randle and the defence Mitch. It isn't the system so much as the personnel.

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Re: PG: Knicks-Thunder 

Post#340 » by Chanel Bomber » Sat Jan 9, 2021 11:16 pm

prophet_of_rage wrote:
god shammgod wrote:
Read on Twitter
So point guard play isn't the issue?

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Payton isn't responsible for RJ's shooting struggles on open shots, or for him missing bunnies at the rim.

RJ should be shooting better regardless of point guard play. But Payton just doesn't enable or help RJ do what he does best. These concepts are not mutually exclusive.

The fact that RJ is not playing his game when he's sharing the court with Payton definitely hurts his scoring percentages too, since these were mentioned in the thread, although they probably wouldn't be good regardless since he's not finishing at the rim at a good rate anyway. I don't think anybody's making the case that Payton is what's preventing RJ from being a good player.

Payton and RJ are just too similar, they can't co-exist. There's only room for one.

The irony is that even without RJ, Payton still wouldn't be a good fit, considering the lack of shooting/spacing in our starting frontcourt with Randle and Mitch. That's what makes his presence on the team and his usage rate so egregious.

You mentioned sample size earlier, it's not just about this season. We have a 6-year sample size with Payton of nothing but empty stats unlocked by high-usage on losing teams. It's a recurring theme. RJ's career stats are a much smaller sample size, with the unknown of how he's going to evolve from year to year. Not looking good so far, as far as this season is concerned.

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