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Knicks- Hornets PG

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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#421 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:28 pm

KnicksGod wrote:I'm not denying that Randle has been good. He's playing way over his head. I think last night is closer to his contribution than the previous whatever games.

We'll see.



He's played well on an individual level, but I view him like I do Harrell and Lou Williams, he should be coming off the bench, he's too ball dominant to be part of a functioning offense, just like those two can't be in a group with starters.



All anyone needs to do is ask themselves, what good team would be better with Randle instead of their current PF? I bet that list is less than 3 teams.
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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#422 » by mpharris36 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:29 pm

KnicksGod wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
KnicksGod wrote:
That's fair. But no stat can confidently give you a rock solid projection on a young player. Randle looks great now, rJ looks like trash, as far as digits. But I see signs of the opposite. Same with a guy like Coby White, although his stats are approaching very good as far as production.


Can you expand on the Randle/RJ thing.

Because advance analytics suggests randle is our best player and RJ is basically our worst. You are seeing something different?

I am also some semi bullish on RJ future but bearish on Randles future...but Randles performance this year (outside of yesterdays game) has been good IMO.


Yeah the performance this year of JRandle has been of the charts. I just don't think it's real. He'll end up slightly better than where he was last year, which wasn't really good. We're in the middle of him coming back down to earth.

I don't like the guy. I don't like Elfrid. As players. They may be very fine people lol. I really think both are toxic.

I dislike both of them strongly for their basketball play.

I think RJ is also flawed but in ways that are acceptable. It's just different to me. I don't really care about the stats right now. I think RJ can be part of a good team because his intangibles are good and while he isn't great at anything, he has strength and interconnectivity between key facets and other than shooting doesn't show red flags.


I think my point I'm just trying to get across that yes I agree that I think Randles numbers come down and we hope for all our sake RJ's numbers come up. But Randle has been good this year and the analytics back that up and RJ has been horrible.

Outside of the 2 indy games...RJ is 2 for 40 from 3....2 for 40!!! 5% from 3!!!

Now I don't think we are using RJ in the right way..with Elfrid and Randle having so much usage he is being relegated his usage to more spot up shooting which seems like a horrible idea for RJ. The roster construction for sure doesn't help but RJ needs to play better as well.
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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#423 » by god shammgod » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:32 pm

Deeeez Knicks wrote:
KnicksGod wrote:Coby White at 17, 6, 5 @ 42, 35.5, 83. Seems like a pretty promising base to me, advanced numbers aside. Advanced may be a lagging indicator, not leading.

NBA Math is a novel visual concept. But is it really saying much? Doesn't seem so. MPj is a decent/neutral defender?


NBA math is interesting, but its really too small of a sample size to take too much from it. Even with larger sample sizes there are always outliers and it is far from perfect.

I would say Coby White is an example of that and has looked really good.


it's not really a great measurement of how good a guy is on offense/defense, it's more how much he helps/hurts the team in those areas when he's on the floor. so coby white might be playing well on offense but it might not help his team much that he does. both of those things can be true.
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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#424 » by Ghetto Gospel » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:33 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
All anyone needs to do is ask themselves, what good team would be better with Randle instead of their current PF? I bet that list is less than 3 teams.


Ain't wrong about that, but if you applied the same line of questioning to RJ, the list would be none
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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#425 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:35 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
KnicksGod wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
Can you expand on the Randle/RJ thing.

Because advance analytics suggests randle is our best player and RJ is basically our worst. You are seeing something different?

I am also some semi bullish on RJ future but bearish on Randles future...but Randles performance this year (outside of yesterdays game) has been good IMO.


Yeah the performance this year of JRandle has been of the charts. I just don't think it's real. He'll end up slightly better than where he was last year, which wasn't really good. We're in the middle of him coming back down to earth.

I don't like the guy. I don't like Elfrid. As players. They may be very fine people lol. I really think both are toxic.

I dislike both of them strongly for their basketball play.

I think RJ is also flawed but in ways that are acceptable. It's just different to me. I don't really care about the stats right now. I think RJ can be part of a good team because his intangibles are good and while he isn't great at anything, he has strength and interconnectivity between key facets and other than shooting doesn't show red flags.


I think my point I'm just trying to get across that yes I agree that I think Randles numbers come down and we hope for all our sake RJ's numbers come up. But Randle has been good this year and the analytics back that up and RJ has been horrible.

Outside of the 2 indy games...RJ is 2 for 40 from 3....2 for 40!!! 5% from 3!!!

Now I don't think we are using RJ in the right way..with Elfrid and Randle having so much usage he is being relegated his usage to more spot up shooting which seems like a horrible idea for RJ. The roster construction for sure doesn't help but RJ needs to play better as well.



RJ needs to play better, but too much of his offense right now is catch and shoot, entirely too much. RJ Is about to overtake Bullock (4.3 per) for catch and shoot attempts per game, he went from 3.7 per game before last nights game to 4.2.


This is just flat out unacceptable, just for some perspective Joe Harris takes 5.5 catch and shoot jumpers per game, with 4.9 being threes, and 4.1 of RJ's jumpers being threes, like what are we doing here? RJ's jumper is bad, so lets make him take a shot he's not good at as one of the pillars of his offense.
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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#426 » by mpharris36 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:38 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
KnicksGod wrote:
Yeah the performance this year of JRandle has been of the charts. I just don't think it's real. He'll end up slightly better than where he was last year, which wasn't really good. We're in the middle of him coming back down to earth.

I don't like the guy. I don't like Elfrid. As players. They may be very fine people lol. I really think both are toxic.

I dislike both of them strongly for their basketball play.

I think RJ is also flawed but in ways that are acceptable. It's just different to me. I don't really care about the stats right now. I think RJ can be part of a good team because his intangibles are good and while he isn't great at anything, he has strength and interconnectivity between key facets and other than shooting doesn't show red flags.


I think my point I'm just trying to get across that yes I agree that I think Randles numbers come down and we hope for all our sake RJ's numbers come up. But Randle has been good this year and the analytics back that up and RJ has been horrible.

Outside of the 2 indy games...RJ is 2 for 40 from 3....2 for 40!!! 5% from 3!!!

Now I don't think we are using RJ in the right way..with Elfrid and Randle having so much usage he is being relegated his usage to more spot up shooting which seems like a horrible idea for RJ. The roster construction for sure doesn't help but RJ needs to play better as well.



RJ needs to play better, but too much of his offense right now is catch and shoot, entirely too much. RJ Is about to overtake Bullock (4.3 per) for catch and shoot attempts per game, he went from 3.7 per game before last nights game to 4.2.


This is just flat out unacceptable, just for some perspective Joe Harris takes 5.5 catch and shoot jumpers per game, with 4.9 being threes, and 4.1 of RJ's jumpers being threes, like what are we doing here? RJ's jumper is bad, so lets make him take a shot he's not good at as one of the pillars of his offense.


I 100% agree...the offense they have built does no favors to RJ. The players he plays a majority of minutes do not compliment him at all. This is a very valid argument...he isn't Joe Harris and shouldn't be used like him.
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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#427 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:40 pm

Ghetto Gospel wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
All anyone needs to do is ask themselves, what good team would be better with Randle instead of their current PF? I bet that list is less than 3 teams.


Ain't wrong about that, but if you applied the same line of questioning to RJ, the list would be none




I don't disagree, the difference is Julius has been in the league 7 years, nobody is expecting RJ to be the foundation of a good team right now, we just want to see him develop. We seem to be building around Julius, no other team would do that, not a single one, just us.
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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#428 » by Reign23 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:42 pm

robillionaire wrote:
Reign23 wrote:just a few things about the game:

Randle was due for a stinkbomb. he was so good the last few weeks
Elfrid is such a stadpadding mofo. he is the michael jordan of garbage time.
RJ... uuhm.
ah and I like the hornets courtdesign.

thats all.


teams are gameplanning for him and throwing double teams at him every time he touches the ball now, daring the other players on this team to hit open shots and that's never going to happen on a consistent basis

yeah I hope it continues. we need a top 3 pick more than any other team.
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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#429 » by KnicksGod » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:45 pm

An "Elfrid Payton" who can make the right play and score 19 PPG, not close out weakly, even if he's not very efficient, is a good player.

Alpha but unselfish Elfrid is not bad if RJ can get there.

It can be part of a good team. It's like saying Randle with defense or a 38% 3 would be a helluva player.
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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#430 » by DaGawd » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:45 pm

Reign23 wrote:
robillionaire wrote:
Reign23 wrote:just a few things about the game:

Randle was due for a stinkbomb. he was so good the last few weeks
Elfrid is such a stadpadding mofo. he is the michael jordan of garbage time.
RJ... uuhm.
ah and I like the hornets courtdesign.

thats all.


teams are gameplanning for him and throwing double teams at him every time he touches the ball now, daring the other players on this team to hit open shots and that's never going to happen on a consistent basis

yeah I hope it continues. we need a top 3 pick more than any other team.

A top 3 pick for us RJ smh... the draft is not an exact answer
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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#431 » by Reign23 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:46 pm

sexton and garland need to get healthy for fridays game. lets go sexland
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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#432 » by Ghetto Gospel » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:48 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Ghetto Gospel wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
All anyone needs to do is ask themselves, what good team would be better with Randle instead of their current PF? I bet that list is less than 3 teams.


Ain't wrong about that, but if you applied the same line of questioning to RJ, the list would be none


I don't disagree, the difference is Julius has been in the league 7 years, nobody is expecting RJ to be the foundation of a good team right now, we just want to see him develop. We seem to be building around Julius, no other team would do that, not a single one, just us.


I'm not sure any team would build around a 2/3 that can't shoot, can't finish around the rim, can't break down his defender consistently, and can't play defense well either. There's really no reason he should see playing time at this point other than the fact that he was the 3rd overall pick. It's quite a dilemma
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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#433 » by Deeeez Knicks » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:52 pm

god shammgod wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:
KnicksGod wrote:Coby White at 17, 6, 5 @ 42, 35.5, 83. Seems like a pretty promising base to me, advanced numbers aside. Advanced may be a lagging indicator, not leading.

NBA Math is a novel visual concept. But is it really saying much? Doesn't seem so. MPj is a decent/neutral defender?


NBA math is interesting, but its really too small of a sample size to take too much from it. Even with larger sample sizes there are always outliers and it is far from perfect.

I would say Coby White is an example of that and has looked really good.


it's not really a great measurement of how good a guy is on offense/defense, it's more how much he helps/hurts the team in those areas when he's on the floor. so coby white might be playing well on offense but it might not help his team much that he does. both of those things can be true.


Agree on the use, but in general its a small sample size to use so far.
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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#434 » by god shammgod » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:55 pm

Deeeez Knicks wrote:
god shammgod wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:
NBA math is interesting, but its really too small of a sample size to take too much from it. Even with larger sample sizes there are always outliers and it is far from perfect.

I would say Coby White is an example of that and has looked really good.


it's not really a great measurement of how good a guy is on offense/defense, it's more how much he helps/hurts the team in those areas when he's on the floor. so coby white might be playing well on offense but it might not help his team much that he does. both of those things can be true.


Agree on the use, but in general its a small sample size to use so far.


agreed. it's just telling you what's happened up to now. that doesn't mean that it will stay that way.
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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#435 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:57 pm

Ghetto Gospel wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Ghetto Gospel wrote:
Ain't wrong about that, but if you applied the same line of questioning to RJ, the list would be none


I don't disagree, the difference is Julius has been in the league 7 years, nobody is expecting RJ to be the foundation of a good team right now, we just want to see him develop. We seem to be building around Julius, no other team would do that, not a single one, just us.


I'm not sure any team would build around a 2/3 that can't shoot, can't finish around the rim, can't break down his defender consistently, and can't play defense well either. There's really no reason he should see playing time at this point other than the fact that he was the 3rd overall pick. It's quite a dilemma



RJ is shooting 55% at the rim, not elite but right around the average, and when you consider our spacing it's even a miracle he's there. I'm more concerned with his regression from the line that's been happening the last few games, that is more troubling to me than anything else. He should see playing time, but with a better spaced floor where he's not required to be the spacer in the lineup, he's played poorly but how we're asking him to play is a joke.
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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#436 » by robillionaire » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:11 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Ghetto Gospel wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
All anyone needs to do is ask themselves, what good team would be better with Randle instead of their current PF? I bet that list is less than 3 teams.


Ain't wrong about that, but if you applied the same line of questioning to RJ, the list would be none




I don't disagree, the difference is Julius has been in the league 7 years, nobody is expecting RJ to be the foundation of a good team right now, we just want to see him develop. We seem to be building around Julius, no other team would do that, not a single one, just us.


I really don't see any indication that that's what we're doing
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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#437 » by thebuzzardman » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:18 pm

Trade RJ now before his value tanks completely
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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#438 » by Jimmit79 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:22 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:Trade RJ now before his value tanks completely
Should have traded him for lamelo

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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#439 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:23 pm

robillionaire wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Ghetto Gospel wrote:
Ain't wrong about that, but if you applied the same line of questioning to RJ, the list would be none




I don't disagree, the difference is Julius has been in the league 7 years, nobody is expecting RJ to be the foundation of a good team right now, we just want to see him develop. We seem to be building around Julius, no other team would do that, not a single one, just us.


I really don't see any indication that that's what we're doing



Look at his usage rate and how many times he touches the ball per game, our offense is completely catered to him, which to me means we're built around him. He has the ball more on our team more than Harden, Curry and Trae have on their teams, and he gets the ball in the frontcourt more than Embiid :lol:


Look at Jerami Grant's numbers, compare the scoring numbers to Randles, close right? Randle touches the ball 90 times per game, Grant gets it 61 times, Grant's numbers come within the flow of an offense and despite having not much on that team they have a better offense than us.
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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#440 » by robillionaire » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:39 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
robillionaire wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:


I don't disagree, the difference is Julius has been in the league 7 years, nobody is expecting RJ to be the foundation of a good team right now, we just want to see him develop. We seem to be building around Julius, no other team would do that, not a single one, just us.


I really don't see any indication that that's what we're doing



Look at his usage rate and how many times he touches the ball per game, our offense is completely catered to him, which to me means we're built around him. He has the ball more on our team more than Harden, Curry and Trae have on their teams, and he gets the ball in the frontcourt more than Embiid :lol:


Look at Jerami Grant's numbers, compare the scoring numbers to Randles, close right? Randle touches the ball 90 times per game, Grant gets it 61 times, Grant's numbers come within the flow of an offense and despite having not much on that team they have a better offense than us.


maybe that's an indication of showcasing him as opposed to actively building around him

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