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Knicks- Hornets PG

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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#441 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:54 pm

robillionaire wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
robillionaire wrote:
I really don't see any indication that that's what we're doing



Look at his usage rate and how many times he touches the ball per game, our offense is completely catered to him, which to me means we're built around him. He has the ball more on our team more than Harden, Curry and Trae have on their teams, and he gets the ball in the frontcourt more than Embiid :lol:


Look at Jerami Grant's numbers, compare the scoring numbers to Randles, close right? Randle touches the ball 90 times per game, Grant gets it 61 times, Grant's numbers come within the flow of an offense and despite having not much on that team they have a better offense than us.


maybe that's an indication of showcasing him as opposed to actively building around him



The only team I can think of that he could fit in with would be the Wolves, and he's not going to get the ball that much with them, outside of that I don't see a fit for him. Contenders wont be beating down our door to get him, he's just not that good of a player, the numbers are great and all but I thought we would have learned from Marbury that numbers don't tell the full story.
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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#442 » by robillionaire » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:58 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
robillionaire wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:

Look at his usage rate and how many times he touches the ball per game, our offense is completely catered to him, which to me means we're built around him. He has the ball more on our team more than Harden, Curry and Trae have on their teams, and he gets the ball in the frontcourt more than Embiid :lol:


Look at Jerami Grant's numbers, compare the scoring numbers to Randles, close right? Randle touches the ball 90 times per game, Grant gets it 61 times, Grant's numbers come within the flow of an offense and despite having not much on that team they have a better offense than us.


maybe that's an indication of showcasing him as opposed to actively building around him



The only team I can think of that he could fit in with would be the Wolves, and he's not going to get the ball that much with them, outside of that I don't see a fit for him. Contenders wont be beating down our door to get him, he's just not that good of a player, the numbers are great and all but I thought we would have learned from Marbury that numbers don't tell the full story.


We showcased Morris last year for two picks and he sucks pretty bad, was terrible on the clippers, and I think he's been injured all this season. I don't care what he does when he's gone as long as we got something in return. Right now I think his numbers warrant at least some kind of asset if we pursue a trade, but who could blame them if they want to keep his value up? Toppin is injured anyway, and the rest of the team sucks.
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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#443 » by Ghetto Gospel » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:34 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Ghetto Gospel wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
I don't disagree, the difference is Julius has been in the league 7 years, nobody is expecting RJ to be the foundation of a good team right now, we just want to see him develop. We seem to be building around Julius, no other team would do that, not a single one, just us.


I'm not sure any team would build around a 2/3 that can't shoot, can't finish around the rim, can't break down his defender consistently, and can't play defense well either. There's really no reason he should see playing time at this point other than the fact that he was the 3rd overall pick. It's quite a dilemma



RJ is shooting 55% at the rim, not elite but right around the average, and when you consider our spacing it's even a miracle he's there. I'm more concerned with his regression from the line that's been happening the last few games, that is more troubling to me than anything else. He should see playing time, but with a better spaced floor where he's not required to be the spacer in the lineup, he's played poorly but how we're asking him to play is a joke.


55% around the rim is nowhere near average considering league average is 66%. I just hesitate to cater to his every need since I have trouble seeing the value he brings. He's a negative player on defense and if he doesn't have the ball, he's a negative on offense because he can't shoot. Considering his lack of shooting, he's forced to be a primary ballhandler to bring anything of value to this offense and I just don't see him operating like a prime dwayne wade could as that ballhandler.
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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#444 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:42 pm

Ghetto Gospel wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Ghetto Gospel wrote:
I'm not sure any team would build around a 2/3 that can't shoot, can't finish around the rim, can't break down his defender consistently, and can't play defense well either. There's really no reason he should see playing time at this point other than the fact that he was the 3rd overall pick. It's quite a dilemma



RJ is shooting 55% at the rim, not elite but right around the average, and when you consider our spacing it's even a miracle he's there. I'm more concerned with his regression from the line that's been happening the last few games, that is more troubling to me than anything else. He should see playing time, but with a better spaced floor where he's not required to be the spacer in the lineup, he's played poorly but how we're asking him to play is a joke.


55% around the rim is nowhere near average considering league average is 66%. I just hesitate to cater to his every need since I have trouble seeing the value he brings. He's a negative player on defense and if he doesn't have the ball, he's a negative on offense because he can't shoot. Considering his lack of shooting, he's forced to be a primary ballhandler to bring anything of value to this offense and I just don't see him operating like a prime dwayne wade could as that ballhandler.



League average includes bigs, wings especially young ones don't necessarily shoot that well at the rim right away, Booker shot 58% at the rim his 2nd season, he shot 72% at the rim last season. There's no doubt in my mind that with better spacing RJ would be over 60% finishing at the rim, because there'd be more chances to pass out of failed drives and less help rotating over. I'm more worried about the regression he's had at the foul line the last few games, that is one spot that I can't look away from, he had a lot of time off to fix that and if he can't be a 75% freethrow shooter by the end of the season I will be extremely worried about him.

It's not about catering the offense to RJ specifically, I want Obi to start when healthy because he's going to space to the corner, which will also help Mitch as a result because we'll be able to run more PnR with the ball handler. I just think RJ is more likely to be able to play off the ball as a cutter, then he is now in a system that is requiring him to take catch and shoot 3s which is something he's clearly not good at.
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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#445 » by Chanel Bomber » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:43 pm

Ghetto Gospel wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Ghetto Gospel wrote:
I'm not sure any team would build around a 2/3 that can't shoot, can't finish around the rim, can't break down his defender consistently, and can't play defense well either. There's really no reason he should see playing time at this point other than the fact that he was the 3rd overall pick. It's quite a dilemma



RJ is shooting 55% at the rim, not elite but right around the average, and when you consider our spacing it's even a miracle he's there. I'm more concerned with his regression from the line that's been happening the last few games, that is more troubling to me than anything else. He should see playing time, but with a better spaced floor where he's not required to be the spacer in the lineup, he's played poorly but how we're asking him to play is a joke.


55% around the rim is nowhere near average considering league average is 66%. I just hesitate to cater to his every need since I have trouble seeing the value he brings. He's a negative player on defense and if he doesn't have the ball, he's a negative on offense because he can't shoot. Considering his lack of shooting, he's forced to be a primary ballhandler to bring anything of value to this offense and I just don't see him operating like a prime dwayne wade could as that ballhandler.

Outside of a few lapses, RJ has been solid defensively this year. He's active and he's doing a good job defending in space.

In fact, he has the second best defensive rating of all the starters. It's a team stat so take it with a grain of salt, but I think it suggests that he's lifting our defense as opposed to bringing it down. The ratings:

Bullock 104.3
RJ 105.9
Mitch 106.3
Randle 107.8
Payton 109.3

I agree that the finishing stats are concerning. The Knicks are not helping him with the roster construction, but he needs to convert at a better rate at the rim to help the team.
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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#446 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:44 pm

robillionaire wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
robillionaire wrote:
maybe that's an indication of showcasing him as opposed to actively building around him



The only team I can think of that he could fit in with would be the Wolves, and he's not going to get the ball that much with them, outside of that I don't see a fit for him. Contenders wont be beating down our door to get him, he's just not that good of a player, the numbers are great and all but I thought we would have learned from Marbury that numbers don't tell the full story.


We showcased Morris last year for two picks and he sucks pretty bad, was terrible on the clippers, and I think he's been injured all this season. I don't care what he does when he's gone as long as we got something in return. Right now I think his numbers warrant at least some kind of asset if we pursue a trade, but who could blame them if they want to keep his value up? Toppin is injured anyway, and the rest of the team sucks.



Morris is a much better player than Randle for a contender, he had several years playing off the ball before he came here and can guard the 3 or 4. What contender even needs Randle? I just look at all the teams and don't see anyone willing to give up much to get him.
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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#447 » by Ghetto Gospel » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:58 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Ghetto Gospel wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:

RJ is shooting 55% at the rim, not elite but right around the average, and when you consider our spacing it's even a miracle he's there. I'm more concerned with his regression from the line that's been happening the last few games, that is more troubling to me than anything else. He should see playing time, but with a better spaced floor where he's not required to be the spacer in the lineup, he's played poorly but how we're asking him to play is a joke.


55% around the rim is nowhere near average considering league average is 66%. I just hesitate to cater to his every need since I have trouble seeing the value he brings. He's a negative player on defense and if he doesn't have the ball, he's a negative on offense because he can't shoot. Considering his lack of shooting, he's forced to be a primary ballhandler to bring anything of value to this offense and I just don't see him operating like a prime dwayne wade could as that ballhandler.



League average includes bigs, wings especially young ones don't necessarily shoot that well at the rim right away, Booker shot 58% at the rim his 2nd season. There's no doubt in my mind that with better spacing RJ would be over 60% finishing at the rim, because there'd be more chances to pass out of failed drives and less help rotating over. I'm more worried about the regression he's had at the foul line the last few games, that is one spot that I can't look away from, he had a lot of time off to fix that and if he can't be a 75% freethrow shooter by the end of the season I will be extremely worried about him.

It's not about catering the offense to RJ specifically, I want Obi to start when healthy because he's going to space to the corner, which will also help Mitch as a result because we'll be able to run more PnR with the ball handler. I just think RJ is more likely to be able to play off the ball as a cutter, then he is now in a system that is requiring him to take catch and shoot 3s which is something he's clearly not good at.


Including bigs fg% at the rim is still relevant to the discussion because we're talking about offense as a whole. Finishing 60% at the rim for RJ would be good for him, but bad for an offense. With regards to Devin Booker, he also shot 64% his first year around the rim and ~42% from slightly further away from the rim compared to RJ's putrid ~25%.

I do think it's about catering the offense to RJ specifically because I don't see a scenario where playing RJ helps the team right now, so the fact that we are playing him means we are catering to him. I understand that we want to develop him, but development should be happening in the offseason not during games. He should have improved his finishing, shot, handles, defense, etc. then and we should be seeing the results now. It's frustrating that someone with a "monster work ethic" with all the "right intangibles" hasn't really improved going from his 1st to 2nd year
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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#448 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:33 pm

Ghetto Gospel wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Ghetto Gospel wrote:
55% around the rim is nowhere near average considering league average is 66%. I just hesitate to cater to his every need since I have trouble seeing the value he brings. He's a negative player on defense and if he doesn't have the ball, he's a negative on offense because he can't shoot. Considering his lack of shooting, he's forced to be a primary ballhandler to bring anything of value to this offense and I just don't see him operating like a prime dwayne wade could as that ballhandler.



League average includes bigs, wings especially young ones don't necessarily shoot that well at the rim right away, Booker shot 58% at the rim his 2nd season. There's no doubt in my mind that with better spacing RJ would be over 60% finishing at the rim, because there'd be more chances to pass out of failed drives and less help rotating over. I'm more worried about the regression he's had at the foul line the last few games, that is one spot that I can't look away from, he had a lot of time off to fix that and if he can't be a 75% freethrow shooter by the end of the season I will be extremely worried about him.

It's not about catering the offense to RJ specifically, I want Obi to start when healthy because he's going to space to the corner, which will also help Mitch as a result because we'll be able to run more PnR with the ball handler. I just think RJ is more likely to be able to play off the ball as a cutter, then he is now in a system that is requiring him to take catch and shoot 3s which is something he's clearly not good at.


Including bigs fg% at the rim is still relevant to the discussion because we're talking about offense as a whole. Finishing 60% at the rim for RJ would be good for him, but bad for an offense. With regards to Devin Booker, he also shot 64% his first year around the rim and ~42% from slightly further away from the rim compared to RJ's putrid ~25%.

I do think it's about catering the offense to RJ specifically because I don't see a scenario where playing RJ helps the team right now, so the fact that we are playing him means we are catering to him. I understand that we want to develop him, but development should be happening in the offseason not during games. He should have improved his finishing, shot, handles, defense, etc. then and we should be seeing the results now. It's frustrating that someone with a "monster work ethic" with all the "right intangibles" hasn't really improved going from his 1st to 2nd year



I'm not concerned with helping the team right now though, the way I see it, everything we're doing now should be with the vision of 3 years from now. We should be maximizing the young players chances to succeed or fail, the Hornets did that last year and found out Monk isn't very good, the Bulls are doing it this year. If putting the ball in RJ's hands more now helps him or lets us know whether or not he's truly worth investing in, we should be doing it. Never forget that the Wolves tried LaVine at PG, he was awful at it, but in the long run letting him try to play point helped him be developed as a secondary creator. He can play make now as a result of those early failings.

I have growing concerns with RJ's freethrow shooting, that is a troubling sign more than anything else, because that's not impacted by anything else. His current role can be linked to some of his offensive struggles, he's just not a good shooter being asked to shoot often, but the the freethrow shooting is all him with nobody else to really look at. Whatever we do, the end of the road leads to the same place, if we end up drafting Cade or Suggs, we can't have a PF playing on the ball as much as Randle, so we may as well rip that band aid off now.
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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#449 » by prophet_of_rage » Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:36 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Ghetto Gospel wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:

League average includes bigs, wings especially young ones don't necessarily shoot that well at the rim right away, Booker shot 58% at the rim his 2nd season. There's no doubt in my mind that with better spacing RJ would be over 60% finishing at the rim, because there'd be more chances to pass out of failed drives and less help rotating over. I'm more worried about the regression he's had at the foul line the last few games, that is one spot that I can't look away from, he had a lot of time off to fix that and if he can't be a 75% freethrow shooter by the end of the season I will be extremely worried about him.

It's not about catering the offense to RJ specifically, I want Obi to start when healthy because he's going to space to the corner, which will also help Mitch as a result because we'll be able to run more PnR with the ball handler. I just think RJ is more likely to be able to play off the ball as a cutter, then he is now in a system that is requiring him to take catch and shoot 3s which is something he's clearly not good at.


Including bigs fg% at the rim is still relevant to the discussion because we're talking about offense as a whole. Finishing 60% at the rim for RJ would be good for him, but bad for an offense. With regards to Devin Booker, he also shot 64% his first year around the rim and ~42% from slightly further away from the rim compared to RJ's putrid ~25%.

I do think it's about catering the offense to RJ specifically because I don't see a scenario where playing RJ helps the team right now, so the fact that we are playing him means we are catering to him. I understand that we want to develop him, but development should be happening in the offseason not during games. He should have improved his finishing, shot, handles, defense, etc. then and we should be seeing the results now. It's frustrating that someone with a "monster work ethic" with all the "right intangibles" hasn't really improved going from his 1st to 2nd year



I'm not concerned with helping the team right now though, the way I see it, everything we're doing now should be with the vision of 3 years from now. We should be maximizing the young players chances to succeed or fail, the Hornets did that last year and found out Monk isn't very good, the Bulls are doing it this year. If putting the ball in RJ's hands more now helps him or lets us know whether or not he's truly worth investing in, we should be doing it. Never forget that the Wolves tried LaVine at PG, he was awful at it, but in the long run letting him try to play point helped him be developed as a secondary creator. He can play make now as a result of those early failings.

I have growing concerns with RJ's freethrow shooting, that is a troubling sign more than anything else, because that's not impacted by anything else. His current role can be linked to some of his offensive struggles, he's just not a good shooter being asked to shoot often, but the the freethrow shooting is all him with nobody else to really look at. Whatever we do, the end of the road leads to the same place, if we end up drafting Cade or Suggs, we can't have a PF playing on the ball as much as Randle, so we may as well rip that band aid off now.
If we draft Cade or Suggs and they are not immediate superstars then what?

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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#450 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:44 pm

prophet_of_rage wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Ghetto Gospel wrote:
Including bigs fg% at the rim is still relevant to the discussion because we're talking about offense as a whole. Finishing 60% at the rim for RJ would be good for him, but bad for an offense. With regards to Devin Booker, he also shot 64% his first year around the rim and ~42% from slightly further away from the rim compared to RJ's putrid ~25%.

I do think it's about catering the offense to RJ specifically because I don't see a scenario where playing RJ helps the team right now, so the fact that we are playing him means we are catering to him. I understand that we want to develop him, but development should be happening in the offseason not during games. He should have improved his finishing, shot, handles, defense, etc. then and we should be seeing the results now. It's frustrating that someone with a "monster work ethic" with all the "right intangibles" hasn't really improved going from his 1st to 2nd year



I'm not concerned with helping the team right now though, the way I see it, everything we're doing now should be with the vision of 3 years from now. We should be maximizing the young players chances to succeed or fail, the Hornets did that last year and found out Monk isn't very good, the Bulls are doing it this year. If putting the ball in RJ's hands more now helps him or lets us know whether or not he's truly worth investing in, we should be doing it. Never forget that the Wolves tried LaVine at PG, he was awful at it, but in the long run letting him try to play point helped him be developed as a secondary creator. He can play make now as a result of those early failings.

I have growing concerns with RJ's freethrow shooting, that is a troubling sign more than anything else, because that's not impacted by anything else. His current role can be linked to some of his offensive struggles, he's just not a good shooter being asked to shoot often, but the the freethrow shooting is all him with nobody else to really look at. Whatever we do, the end of the road leads to the same place, if we end up drafting Cade or Suggs, we can't have a PF playing on the ball as much as Randle, so we may as well rip that band aid off now.
If we draft Cade or Suggs and they are not immediate superstars then what?

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You keep building, but the odds of either of them being immediate impact players is pretty low, so we'll have to make some smart FA additions like going after Duncan Robinson and Talen Horton Tucker. Unfortunately we painted ourselves into a corner not going after Brogdon or FVV the last two years, because there are no free agent PGs, outside of Conley and Lowry.
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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#451 » by god shammgod » Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:15 am

Read on Twitter

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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#452 » by rajajackal » Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:19 am

god shammgod wrote:
Read on Twitter


**** yes
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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#453 » by KnicksGod » Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:20 am

Hate doing this but could have had

FVV
Haliburton
RJ
Randle - Knox
Mitch

Might have protected RJ.
Enes Kanter still does not box out ___ Image
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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#454 » by Chanel Bomber » Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:26 am

god shammgod wrote:
Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

He better not have been involved in the Bagley pick or we just added a mini-Perry.
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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#455 » by Jimmit79 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:44 am

KnicksGod wrote:Hate doing this but could have had

FVV
Haliburton
RJ
Randle - Knox
Mitch

Might have protected RJ.
Imagine
JA
Hali
MPjr
Randle
KP



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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#456 » by prophet_of_rage » Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:07 am

KnicksGod wrote:Hate doing this but could have had

FVV
Haliburton
RJ
Randle - Knox
Mitch

Might have protected RJ.
How? There is no protecting a scorer who can't score.

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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#457 » by Ghetto Gospel » Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:31 am

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Ghetto Gospel wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:

League average includes bigs, wings especially young ones don't necessarily shoot that well at the rim right away, Booker shot 58% at the rim his 2nd season. There's no doubt in my mind that with better spacing RJ would be over 60% finishing at the rim, because there'd be more chances to pass out of failed drives and less help rotating over. I'm more worried about the regression he's had at the foul line the last few games, that is one spot that I can't look away from, he had a lot of time off to fix that and if he can't be a 75% freethrow shooter by the end of the season I will be extremely worried about him.

It's not about catering the offense to RJ specifically, I want Obi to start when healthy because he's going to space to the corner, which will also help Mitch as a result because we'll be able to run more PnR with the ball handler. I just think RJ is more likely to be able to play off the ball as a cutter, then he is now in a system that is requiring him to take catch and shoot 3s which is something he's clearly not good at.


Including bigs fg% at the rim is still relevant to the discussion because we're talking about offense as a whole. Finishing 60% at the rim for RJ would be good for him, but bad for an offense. With regards to Devin Booker, he also shot 64% his first year around the rim and ~42% from slightly further away from the rim compared to RJ's putrid ~25%.

I do think it's about catering the offense to RJ specifically because I don't see a scenario where playing RJ helps the team right now, so the fact that we are playing him means we are catering to him. I understand that we want to develop him, but development should be happening in the offseason not during games. He should have improved his finishing, shot, handles, defense, etc. then and we should be seeing the results now. It's frustrating that someone with a "monster work ethic" with all the "right intangibles" hasn't really improved going from his 1st to 2nd year



I'm not concerned with helping the team right now though, the way I see it, everything we're doing now should be with the vision of 3 years from now. We should be maximizing the young players chances to succeed or fail, the Hornets did that last year and found out Monk isn't very good, the Bulls are doing it this year. If putting the ball in RJ's hands more now helps him or lets us know whether or not he's truly worth investing in, we should be doing it. Never forget that the Wolves tried LaVine at PG, he was awful at it, but in the long run letting him try to play point helped him be developed as a secondary creator. He can play make now as a result of those early failings.

I have growing concerns with RJ's freethrow shooting, that is a troubling sign more than anything else, because that's not impacted by anything else. His current role can be linked to some of his offensive struggles, he's just not a good shooter being asked to shoot often, but the the freethrow shooting is all him with nobody else to really look at. Whatever we do, the end of the road leads to the same place, if we end up drafting Cade or Suggs, we can't have a PF playing on the ball as much as Randle, so we may as well rip that band aid off now.


If the vision is for 3 years from now, I guess playing around RJ would be a good thing for generating losses and tanking :lol:

I will say that in much the same way we're ripping off the Randle band aid, we're also probably going to be ripping off the RJ band-aid, because we can't have a SG/SF playing on the ball as much as RJ
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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#458 » by god shammgod » Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:58 am

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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#459 » by BugginOut » Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:25 am


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Cap per usual. I’ll believe it when I see it
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DaGawd
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Re: Knicks- Hornets PG 

Post#460 » by DaGawd » Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:05 am

BugginOut wrote:

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Cap per usual. I’ll believe it when I see it

Yeah this **** stay capping

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