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Who are we even trying to build around?

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Who should we build around?

Randle
6
16%
Barrett
10
27%
Obi and iq
3
8%
Elfrid Payton
8
22%
Other
10
27%
 
Total votes: 37

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Re: Who are we even trying to build around? 

Post#61 » by Chanel Bomber » Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:09 pm

3toheadmelo wrote:
cgf wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:He needs to come off the bench. Him playing a bunch of minutes and chucking up shots isn’t doing him any good.


Not sure I agree that it's not doing him any good. He's still showing progress this season defensively, as a rebounder, as a midrange shooter and as a decision-maker with the ball (turnover rate down substantially & assist rate has also increased)...despite the huge minutes, which we've seen causing even Magic to make some tired-decisions...despite struggling with his outside shot & finishing at the rim. So I'm not sure I buy that he isn't gaining valuable experience, even with all of the bricks.

Sharing the court with Elf is a problem, but that's a problem that I think is better solved by sending Elf to the bench...so that Julius & RJ can run the offense with Burks & Rivers/Quickley in the backcourt to keep teams honest...and unfortunately, injuries have forced our hand on this front, else Elf may already be leading the 2nd unit with Quickley/Rivers, Knox, Obi & Noel/Bullock/Frank.

I mean literally every stat shows he’s killing our team on both ends. He’s just been awful.

I agree we should still bench Payton regardless, but I’m just saying I don’t think Payton is holding him back in some major way.

Sorry bro but that's not true.

RJ has been solid on defense. Nothing suggests that he's killing the team defensively. In fact, teams score exactly 10 more points per 100 possessions when he's off the floor.

Offensively, the Knicks are +4.2 in offensive net rating when RJ is on the court.
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Re: Who are we even trying to build around? 

Post#62 » by 3toheadmelo » Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:12 pm

Chanel Bomber wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:Randle still isn't a good defender. He's neutral at best, with some overly theatrical defensive plays that I believe give the impression that he's become more invested on that side of the ball. His effort is lackadaisical at times.

Randle would probably be a 6th man on a contender.

He's a scoring machine but he gets his points in a way that slows the offense down. He needs to be featured to have an impact. Now how many playoff teams would make space for him and run plays through him as a first or second option? How many playoff teams would give him the usage that his production seems to demand? I don't think too many.

Randle is in that Boogie, Vucevic, David Lee tier in my opinion. Unfortunately, because of the way the team is set up with three additional non-shooters in the starting line-up, it's impossible to know how Randle would function in a healthier system, which makes imperative that we bench Payton asap and then possibly RJ as well depending on how things go.

If he’s a neutral defender then what does that make Jokic? Horrible? :D

Randle’s usage is being exaggerated. His usage rate is ranked 31 among all the players in the league. Pretty much around the same for his whole career. But the only reason why he’s our #1 option is cause we have nobody else on our team who can create offense. You guys keep ignoring that.

I agree we should still bench Payton and RJ though.

My starting lineup would be

Rivers
Burks
Knox
Randle
Mitch

Got 3 shooters in there and 1 average shooter (Randle).

I didn't mean to say that Randle is a ball-hog. One can definitely justify his usage on this team with the way he's been playing. I'm just not sure which playoff teams would give a player like him this much usage, and I'm not sure how impactful he can be with a lower usage %.

The way he scores his points (most of them anyway) requires usage. He's improved a lot in terms of making quicker reads and quicker decisions but he's still fundamentally a slow player and a methodical scorer. He likes to take his time, take a few dribbles and play bully ball. He's not a catch-and-shoot player, he's not exactly a good cutter, so he needs the ball to put up numbers (at this stage in this career at least).

I'd be fine with moving progressively towards that line-up you mentioned.

Guys like Jokic and Sabonis take their time slowly too though. Especially Jokic. I don’t see it as a problem with the way he scores.

If we had better players around him then we would know how he would look with a lower usage... but unfortunately we don’t. Maybe next year we’ll know or something. Still hoping we make a trade for Lavine.
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Re: Who are we even trying to build around? 

Post#63 » by 3toheadmelo » Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:14 pm

Chanel Bomber wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:
cgf wrote:
Not sure I agree that it's not doing him any good. He's still showing progress this season defensively, as a rebounder, as a midrange shooter and as a decision-maker with the ball (turnover rate down substantially & assist rate has also increased)...despite the huge minutes, which we've seen causing even Magic to make some tired-decisions...despite struggling with his outside shot & finishing at the rim. So I'm not sure I buy that he isn't gaining valuable experience, even with all of the bricks.

Sharing the court with Elf is a problem, but that's a problem that I think is better solved by sending Elf to the bench...so that Julius & RJ can run the offense with Burks & Rivers/Quickley in the backcourt to keep teams honest...and unfortunately, injuries have forced our hand on this front, else Elf may already be leading the 2nd unit with Quickley/Rivers, Knox, Obi & Noel/Bullock/Frank.

I mean literally every stat shows he’s killing our team on both ends. He’s just been awful.

I agree we should still bench Payton regardless, but I’m just saying I don’t think Payton is holding him back in some major way.

Sorry bro but that's not true.

RJ has been solid on defense. Nothing suggests that he's killing the team defensively. In fact, teams score exactly 10 more points per 100 possessions when he's off the floor.

Offensively, the Knicks are +4.2 in offensive net rating when RJ is on the court.

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PF: Bam/ Hart
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Re: Who are we even trying to build around? 

Post#64 » by Chanel Bomber » Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:15 pm

3toheadmelo wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:If he’s a neutral defender then what does that make Jokic? Horrible? :D

Randle’s usage is being exaggerated. His usage rate is ranked 31 among all the players in the league. Pretty much around the same for his whole career. But the only reason why he’s our #1 option is cause we have nobody else on our team who can create offense. You guys keep ignoring that.

I agree we should still bench Payton and RJ though.

My starting lineup would be

Rivers
Burks
Knox
Randle
Mitch

Got 3 shooters in there and 1 average shooter (Randle).

I didn't mean to say that Randle is a ball-hog. One can definitely justify his usage on this team with the way he's been playing. I'm just not sure which playoff teams would give a player like him this much usage, and I'm not sure how impactful he can be with a lower usage %.

The way he scores his points (most of them anyway) requires usage. He's improved a lot in terms of making quicker reads and quicker decisions but he's still fundamentally a slow player and a methodical scorer. He likes to take his time, take a few dribbles and play bully ball. He's not a catch-and-shoot player, he's not exactly a good cutter, so he needs the ball to put up numbers (at this stage in this career at least).

I'd be fine with moving progressively towards that line-up you mentioned.

Guys like Jokic and Sabonis take their time slowly too though. Especially Jokic. I don’t see it as a problem with the way he scores.

If we had better players around him then we would know how he would look with a lower usage... but unfortunately we don’t. Maybe next year we’ll know or something. Still hoping we make a trade for Lavine.

I don't think Jokic is even comparable because he's legitimately a dominant low-post big and a basketball genius. An MVP candidate. And your king.

Point taken about Sabonis.
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Re: Who are we even trying to build around? 

Post#65 » by 3toheadmelo » Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:17 pm

Chanel Bomber wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:I didn't mean to say that Randle is a ball-hog. One can definitely justify his usage on this team with the way he's been playing. I'm just not sure which playoff teams would give a player like him this much usage, and I'm not sure how impactful he can be with a lower usage %.

The way he scores his points (most of them anyway) requires usage. He's improved a lot in terms of making quicker reads and quicker decisions but he's still fundamentally a slow player and a methodical scorer. He likes to take his time, take a few dribbles and play bully ball. He's not a catch-and-shoot player, he's not exactly a good cutter, so he needs the ball to put up numbers (at this stage in this career at least).

I'd be fine with moving progressively towards that line-up you mentioned.

Guys like Jokic and Sabonis take their time slowly too though. Especially Jokic. I don’t see it as a problem with the way he scores.

If we had better players around him then we would know how he would look with a lower usage... but unfortunately we don’t. Maybe next year we’ll know or something. Still hoping we make a trade for Lavine.

I don't think Jokic is even comparable because he's legitimately a dominant low-post big and a basketball genius. An MVP candidate. And your king.

Point taken about Sabonis.

Randle outplayed him last week though
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Re: Who are we even trying to build around? 

Post#66 » by Chanel Bomber » Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:20 pm

3toheadmelo wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:I mean literally every stat shows he’s killing our team on both ends. He’s just been awful.

I agree we should still bench Payton regardless, but I’m just saying I don’t think Payton is holding him back in some major way.

Sorry bro but that's not true.

RJ has been solid on defense. Nothing suggests that he's killing the team defensively. In fact, teams score exactly 10 more points per 100 possessions when he's off the floor.

Offensively, the Knicks are +4.2 in offensive net rating when RJ is on the court.

Image

I don't know how TPA is calculated so I can't actually debate these charts.

The on/off stats paint a different picture. The Knicks are better offensively and significantly better defensively when RJ's on the court. Can it be attributed to him since he's sharing the court with 4 other guys? That's debatable. Perhaps the Knicks are so bad that the on/off aren't that relevant anyway. But since he has the second best defensive rating of all the starters, I think it's fair to say that he's probably helped our defense more than he's hurt it. Eye test is subjective but I'd say he's been one of our most consistent defenders just by watching the games, and the stats would tend to back it up.
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Re: Who are we even trying to build around? 

Post#67 » by Chanel Bomber » Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:24 pm

3toheadmelo wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:Guys like Jokic and Sabonis take their time slowly too though. Especially Jokic. I don’t see it as a problem with the way he scores.

If we had better players around him then we would know how he would look with a lower usage... but unfortunately we don’t. Maybe next year we’ll know or something. Still hoping we make a trade for Lavine.

I don't think Jokic is even comparable because he's legitimately a dominant low-post big and a basketball genius. An MVP candidate. And your king.

Point taken about Sabonis.

Randle outplayed him last week though
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Jok +8 Randle -21

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Re: Who are we even trying to build around? 

Post#68 » by Reign23 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:27 pm

K-DOT wrote:The plan isn't to build around Randle, clearly. That's why we drafted Obi, whose main thing was being so good right out the gates he didn't need to develop

The plan also isn't to build around RJ, as we've done nothing to fix the spacing issues and continued to bring back Payton, who is the absolute worst possible fit for him at PG

We're not trying to build around anyone. We're not trying to tank and draft a top tier guy, either. We're in a sort of limbo where our young guys aren't good enough to justify building around, and our vets have never been core pieces on good teams. So we're sort of just meandering through life. Kind of like Kings East, with our ceiling being Magic North.

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Re: Who are we even trying to build around? 

Post#69 » by 3toheadmelo » Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:28 pm

Chanel Bomber wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:I don't think Jokic is even comparable because he's legitimately a dominant low-post big and a basketball genius. An MVP candidate. And your king.

Point taken about Sabonis.

Randle outplayed him last week though
Image

Jok +8 Randle -21

Image

Randle: 29/10/5
Jokic: 22/10/5
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Re: Who are we even trying to build around? 

Post#70 » by prophet_of_rage » Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:28 pm

cgf wrote:
vallen wrote:
K-DOT wrote:The plan isn't to build around Randle, clearly. That's why we drafted Obi, whose main thing was being so good right out the gates he didn't need to develop

The plan also isn't to build around RJ, as we've done nothing to fix the spacing issues and continued to bring back Payton, who is the absolute worst possible fit for him at PG

We're not trying to build around anyone. We're not trying to tank and draft a top tier guy, either. We're in a sort of limbo where our young guys aren't good enough to justify building around, and our vets have never been core pieces on good teams. So we're sort of just meandering through life. Kind of like Kings East, with our ceiling being Magic North.



Who says Obi doesnt need to be developed? We saw Ball coming off the Bench just last night. Thats what real development is. People love to compare RJ to Jimmy Butler. Butler came off the bench. Development isnt drafting Lottery pics and throwing them in the pool to learn how to swim. Such a 2K mentality. Having depth is part of building a cohesive team.

RJ needs to take the blame for his own poor performances. Payton isnt out there blocking his wide open shots and crappy fade aways. No PG is going to help that. RJ needs to fix RJ.

A trade to get Randle real help would be better than meandering through life like the Kings and having a ceiling like the Magic. Beause those are 2 of a handful of teams in the Lotto for decades without anything to show for it. We have pieces, the mecca, and a coach to be better than that.


If a prospect needs to be developed, what's even the point? Might as well just trade all of our picks if all we're going to do is waste them on bums who can't even make the Allstar game as rookies.


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Re: Who are we even trying to build around? 

Post#71 » by prophet_of_rage » Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:29 pm

K-DOT wrote:
vallen wrote:Who says Obi doesnt need to be developed?

Lot of people, actually

It was a pretty common refrain from when it was just a rumor we were looking at him to go "we should take him cause he's older and more polished, no waiting 2-3 years before he's ready" and people were saying he was gonna be the clear RotY because he would be so much better right away due to being more developed

vallen wrote:We saw Ball coming off the Bench just last night.

I'm sorry for not automatically assuming the Hornets are a model of player development?

Also, Lamelo will still be younger than Obi is right now when he's finished with his 4th season. Let me know if he's still coming off the bench to develop then.
Big difference between waiting 2-3 years and expecting greatness in 2-3 games. How about 1-2 years?

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Re: Who are we even trying to build around? 

Post#72 » by prophet_of_rage » Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:31 pm

3toheadmelo wrote:
god shammgod wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:Why are we selling on a young all star though? If it was Jokic or KP would you still trade them? Considering they’re in the same age group and similar production.


at the very least he's playing as well as sabonis. people are saying he can't keep this up basically and are willing to take whatever right now on the chance they're right. i look at it as the opposite, i would rather keep him and see what happens than cash in for a non-lotterry pick that likely won't be sh*t. if i'm wrong i miss out on less than i would if i was right.

Pretty much. I think we had enough of Frank’s and Knox’s.
The weird thing is people believe Franks and Knoxs win. They are a dime a dozen and yoy play them around stars.

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Re: Who are we even trying to build around? 

Post#73 » by Knicks Byke » Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:46 pm

:lol: @ the Elfraud-19 votes.
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Re: Who are we even trying to build around? 

Post#74 » by rajajackal » Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:48 pm

3toheadmelo wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:Randle outplayed him last week though
Image

Jok +8 Randle -21

Image

Randle: 29/10/5
Jokic: 22/10/5
Image


c'mon we're all happy to see julius produce stats but we also all know whose team won and by how much :lol:
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Re: Who are we even trying to build around? 

Post#75 » by 3toheadmelo » Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:51 pm

rajajackal wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:Jok +8 Randle -21

Image

Randle: 29/10/5
Jokic: 22/10/5
Image


c'mon we're all happy to see julius produce stats but we also all know whose team won and by how much :lol:

Cause Jokic got a bunch of solid players around him :lol: all Randle got is Payton and R_Barrett
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Re: Who are we even trying to build around? 

Post#76 » by prophet_of_rage » Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:13 pm

3toheadmelo wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:Why are we selling on a young all star though? If it was Jokic or KP would you still trade them? Considering they’re in the same age group and similar production.


If the goal is to build a contender, then I think its going to be even more difficult to build that kind of team around Randle as a top 2 or 3 option. He's not really an easy guy to fit around. If we make that commitment its just gonna be tough to bring in the right fitting pieces and we will also have to pay him in 1 1/2 years. Just seems like we would be spinning our wheels and treading water at best.

As good as Randle is playing he is still nowhere in Jokic's league. KP? It really depends if he can stay healthy and get better. But his skill set is easier to build around since he protects the rim and spaces the floor better. Don't really want to defend KP right now and he may prove not worthy of the contract.

As far as Randle, he does look much better and on the right team can win. But from what we are starting with its gonna be real hard to do and think long term we are better off going in another direction

Don’t see why he can’t fit on a contender. The guy is a scoring machine, plays defense now, and a great facilitator. If guys like Sabonis and Jokic can have big roles on playoffs teams then so can Randle. He basically does the same things as them.
Prejudice is all. Randle plays a similar style to Sabonis with better defence. Put him with a star backcourt player and defensive 5 and he can contend.

So Knicks get a star back court player and we're fine.

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Re: Who are we even trying to build around? 

Post#77 » by cgmw » Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:15 pm

K-DOT wrote:The plan isn't to build around Randle, clearly. That's why we drafted Obi, whose main thing was being so good right out the gates he didn't need to develop

The plan also isn't to build around RJ, as we've done nothing to fix the spacing issues and continued to bring back Payton, who is the absolute worst possible fit for him at PG

We're not trying to build around anyone. We're not trying to tank and draft a top tier guy, either. We're in a sort of limbo where our young guys aren't good enough to justify building around, and our vets have never been core pieces on good teams. So we're sort of just meandering through life. Kind of like Kings East, with our ceiling being Magic North.

It's almost like common sense basketball minds are being held back from committing to a rebuild and feel the need to strike a deal to compromise with their idiot overlord.
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Re: Who are we even trying to build around? 

Post#78 » by prophet_of_rage » Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:21 pm

DaGawd wrote:
F N 11 wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:That’s cap. He’s getting 17 shots per game. You want him to shoot 30 times?

I want him to get touches even if he’s just moving the ball. Payton pounding it for 20 seconds does not help anyone. The one consistent since Payton has been thrown in there is ball movement has not been as good since preseason. Payton is an issue for everyone on this team.

Every year the fans choose somebody to scapegoat.. then that scapegoat leaves and we still suck we move on to another scapegoat. I’m not a Payton fan.. but he isn’t the reason R sucks
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Re: Who are we even trying to build around? 

Post#79 » by F N 11 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:29 pm

prophet_of_rage wrote:
DaGawd wrote:
F N 11 wrote:I want him to get touches even if he’s just moving the ball. Payton pounding it for 20 seconds does not help anyone. The one consistent since Payton has been thrown in there is ball movement has not been as good since preseason. Payton is an issue for everyone on this team.

Every year the fans choose somebody to scapegoat.. then that scapegoat leaves and we still suck we move on to another scapegoat. I’m not a Payton fan.. but he isn’t the reason R sucks
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Agreed, he’s the reason the team sucks. He was hand picked to be the PG and this is the result. Need a real point guard which has been our need forever so Payton, Mudiay, Burke and guys of that sort is never the reason no one develops. When Payton got a king ass leash with bad play nothing else needs to be said imo. Keep thinking Payton is some good point guard who gets everyone involved.
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amit wrote:Frank prime will be like 10 ppg. Hes not that kind of PG and we knew it since he got drafted. Thats why scorers players around frank will be the bast for him
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Re: Who are we even trying to build around? 

Post#80 » by Galou » Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:31 pm

Idk but just keep on rebuilding. I don't want no major star coming here.
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