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Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him?

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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#301 » by RHODEY » Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:53 am

Jay10 wrote:The funny thing about people wanting Lonzo Ball is the fact that the Knicks could've gotten a similar player in Tyrese Haliburton at a much cheaper price with the 8th pick, if the Knicks had just not fallen for the Obi Toppin hype. :lol:


Hype or nepotism....Im not going to give up on OBI just yet , but no way in hell was he scouted properly.
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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#302 » by RHODEY » Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:55 am

Buttah304 wrote:
robillionaire wrote:
Buttah304 wrote:
Powell shot 48% FG 2 years ago, 50% last year, and 50% this season. Hell will freeze over before Trent ever becomes that efficient.


but the year before that powell's 3rd year in the league at age 24 he shot 40% which is lower than trent jr. shoots now in his 3rd year in the league at age 22, it's not that hard to imagine a young player like trent improving further as well


His age is certainly part of the appeal but his game is eerily similar to that of Tim Hardaway JR. It feels like we have already seen this movie and know how it ends.


Right I was high on him, but I worry whether he can perform as well without shot makers like Dame and Mccolum to draw attention away.
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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#303 » by Clyde_Style » Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:20 am

dakomish23 wrote:

This is a very impressive outing. Not just the shooting. He sees the play developing and throws the lead pass hitting guys in rhythm.

If you believe the shooting is real, do it. Just be realistic and don’t expect him to be a top 10 G in the league


He's a sensible PG. I know that doesn't float everyones' boat, but you can see his shooting percentages went up not just because he became a better shooter, but also because he learned when to take his shot and when to move the ball. It's a simple facet of the game, but without a judicious PG the rest of the unit starts to lapse into making bad judgments and taking bad shots.

With Lonzo, I believe we'd be able to build a well-oiled ball movement offense that looks for the open man instead of forcing shots.

Sometimes you end up being more error prone with more spectucular athletes at the point, so it is a trade-off. When you consider how much Randle and RJ, and probably IQ, create for themselves already, it may be the right trade-off.

Plus, Lonzo would find Mitch and up his production too.
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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#304 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:43 pm

He was held out today with a hip flexor strain hmmmm
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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#305 » by Ray Williams » Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:10 pm

GONYK wrote:This is the trade John Hollinger posed in his article for the Athletic:

Knicks get:
Lonzo Ball
JJ Redick
Jaxson Hayes

Pelicans get:

Mitchell Robinson
Elfrid Payton
Austin Rivers
Ignas Brazdeikis
Dallas’ 2021 first-round pick
Lightly protected 2021 Knicks first-round pick


Hollinger better hope his boss don’t make him take a pee test
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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#306 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Sun May 2, 2021 4:55 am

Steal him from them.



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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#307 » by Nazrmohamed » Sun May 2, 2021 12:25 pm

RHODEY wrote:
Jay10 wrote:The funny thing about people wanting Lonzo Ball is the fact that the Knicks could've gotten a similar player in Tyrese Haliburton at a much cheaper price with the 8th pick, if the Knicks had just not fallen for the Obi Toppin hype. :lol:


Hype or nepotism....Im not going to give up on OBI just yet , but no way in hell was he scouted properly.


Well the same reason that Obi Toppin seems overhyped is the same reason why Haliburton and now Ball might not work out. And this is coming from someone who argued all summer for Haliburton, defend Toppin and have supported Ball coming here. And because of it I've settled down on my support of Ball.

WE WILL NOT RUN PICK AND ROLL where the intended action is that the PG coming off the screen opens his eyes and looks for passing opportunities, especially ones where the most likely target is the big who just made the screen for him.

There will be zero SteveNash/Amare moments. Zero Stockton/Malone moments. Zero Tre Young/John Collins moments. Zero Paul/Griffin. And people can hate on the analogy but Ball and Haliburton represent the Nash/Stockton/Young in these situations, and obviously Obi was the big. This is the skillset Obi won POY mastering. We've essentially abolished it. And while everyone bashes Obi to fawn over Haliburton they forget that Haliburton is the other end of the same issue. In fact hes sortve playing off the ball in Sacramento.


Has the high assist generating PG become out of favor? Has the non-ball dominant big who's somewhat of a rim runner fallen out of favor as well. Actually I know the answer. All we can focus on is what we do here and how our coach likes to play. I'm starting to question if Ball would fit in here. I appreciate his abilities but there's a reason why a guy like Nate could thrive under Thibs but the Knicks had no interest in Haliburton.

The Knicks need a younger version of Derrick Rose. And its not my favorite type of PG but it's what works for him so......I don't k or alot of guys like that but of those I've seen mentioned Lillard is the best player and the best fit. Schroeder sort of can do alittle of everything sortve a jack of all trades master of none type of PG. A utility knife sortve guy.


We're getting by on Peyton folks.
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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#308 » by Reign23 » Sun May 2, 2021 12:34 pm

soooo. for what $ do we get him?
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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#309 » by Nazrmohamed » Sun May 2, 2021 12:59 pm

RHODEY wrote:
Jay10 wrote:The funny thing about people wanting Lonzo Ball is the fact that the Knicks could've gotten a similar player in Tyrese Haliburton at a much cheaper price with the 8th pick, if the Knicks had just not fallen for the Obi Toppin hype. :lol:


Hype or nepotism....Im not going to give up on OBI just yet , but no way in hell was he scouted properly.


We may have to give up on him. Not in the sense that you have to agree with all the people saying he's a bust but maybe in the sense that we don't run a system of basketball that's conducive to his playstyle.......which I see as basically early Blake Griffin-ish in nature. Now should he become more well rounded like Blake eventually became in like yr 4 then ok maybe. But along the way Blake got to come into his own while being fed about 8 assisted dimes after pick and roll action a game. He just had to come up with the other 4-5 PTS on his own.

That won't happen for Obi while he learns. And thats sortve been my problem. I get that every coach has his style, I'm not asking for Thibs to change for his first unit but damn, you can't run alittle easy offense for your secondary group? Can't run some plays for the kid we invested a lotto pick for? Forget the 8 I mentioned with Blake.....we can't run 4?
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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#310 » by Kampuchea » Sun May 2, 2021 1:11 pm

Opinion changes daily based on box score from his last game.
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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#311 » by cgf » Sun May 2, 2021 1:29 pm

Lonzo has obvious flaws, but with his improved shot, I see a clear upgrade on Payton for that bigger/defensive PG spot in the starting lineup.
dogrufus wrote:Plus the win would put us at .500 and 5 straight wins, making every poster here cream in their pants.

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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#312 » by Nazrmohamed » Sun May 2, 2021 1:44 pm

[/gfycat]
Reign23 wrote:soooo. for what $ do we get him?


Good job getting us back on point. I'd give him a deal very similar to the deal we gave Randle last season. Maybe start it at 20, 3yr deal with the 3rd being a team option.
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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#313 » by KnicksGadfly » Sun May 2, 2021 2:02 pm

Nazrmohamed wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
Jay10 wrote:The funny thing about people wanting Lonzo Ball is the fact that the Knicks could've gotten a similar player in Tyrese Haliburton at a much cheaper price with the 8th pick, if the Knicks had just not fallen for the Obi Toppin hype. :lol:


Hype or nepotism....Im not going to give up on OBI just yet , but no way in hell was he scouted properly.


Well the same reason that Obi Toppin seems overhyped is the same reason why Haliburton and now Ball might not work out. And this is coming from someone who argued all summer for Haliburton, defend Toppin and have supported Ball coming here. And because of it I've settled down on my support of Ball.

WE WILL NOT RUN PICK AND ROLL where the intended action is that the PG coming off the screen opens his eyes and looks for passing opportunities, especially ones where the most likely target is the big who just made the screen for him.

There will be zero SteveNash/Amare moments. Zero Stockton/Malone moments. Zero Tre Young/John Collins moments. Zero Paul/Griffin. And people can hate on the analogy but Ball and Haliburton represent the Nash/Stockton/Young in these situations, and obviously Obi was the big. This is the skillset Obi won POY mastering. We've essentially abolished it. And while everyone bashes Obi to fawn over Haliburton they forget that Haliburton is the other end of the same issue. In fact hes sortve playing off the ball in Sacramento.


Has the high assist generating PG become out of favor? Has the non-ball dominant big who's somewhat of a rim runner fallen out of favor as well. Actually I know the answer. All we can focus on is what we do here and how our coach likes to play. I'm starting to question if Ball would fit in here. I appreciate his abilities but there's a reason why a guy like Nate could thrive under Thibs but the Knicks had no interest in Haliburton.

The Knicks need a younger version of Derrick Rose. And its not my favorite type of PG but it's what works for him so......I don't k or alot of guys like that but of those I've seen mentioned Lillard is the best player and the best fit. Schroeder sort of can do alittle of everything sortve a jack of all trades master of none type of PG. A utility knife sortve guy.


We're getting by on Peyton folks.


Wait so we basically drafted an older big man at 8 who doesn’t get defense as one of his strengths and can only finish when he gets a pg who passes him the ball? BPA folks, where you at?! Defend your boy!

The other thing with Haliburton is that he still looks good playing off ball. That type of versatility is helpful. You can sort of see it with Quickley in that he was scouted quickly in his first game and teams were already ready to guard his 3. That absolutely helps his teammates and it ain’t a surprise to me that Quickley, Randle and RJ jive.
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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#314 » by thebuzzardman » Sun May 2, 2021 2:12 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:Steal him from them.





I like Lonzo a lot as a player, in spite of some obvious flaws. The most obvious flaw is the one covered here many times, and that is his lack of inclination/ability to drive the ball.
Not only is that not the greatest attribute for a PG to have, but it's a really really bad attribute for a KNICK PG to have, at least as the Knicks are currently constituted.

IF the Knicks were to sign Lonzo, it would have to be with the following in mind:

Rose starts and Lonzo takes Bullocks role. Obviously with more passing.

or

Lonzo comes off the bench (Rose or someone like him still the starter)

or

Ball starts at PG but the Knicks also acquired either Lavine or Beal and, just to annoy, maybe DeRozan. (if only as an example of the starting lineup getting a known plus 3 level shot creator who gets to the rime)
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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#315 » by thebuzzardman » Sun May 2, 2021 2:23 pm

cgf wrote:Lonzo has obvious flaws, but with his improved shot, I see a clear upgrade on Payton for that bigger/defensive PG spot in the starting lineup.


Payton at least gets to the rim. This is in no way an endorsement of Payton. So, either he takes Payton's spot, but off the bench, or the Knicks have to upgrade whatever wing position RJ isn't playing with a top level dribble/drive guy. Ideally more than that, but you get the point.

This post and my last one aren't bashing RJ or denigrating him in anyway. Randle can get his shot off at will, but RJ can't - yet. I feel it's a few years away. While Lonzo would spread the floor more for the Randle and RJ, I don't think he specifically would take them to a higher level if he started and Rose didn't. At his cost. Since he'd be bumping Bullocks if Rose still started.

Let me explain it better. I'd want the Knicks to get him. I'd either accept that Lonzo starting and Rose off the bench improved the Knicks, but not by much, but was an iterative move to make them better, but they still need a more creative driving wing than RJ is now to to pair with RJ and Randle, until RJ fully develops. To be truly competitive until that time. Because minus another deal, the starting lineup would probably look like:

Lonzo
RJ
Bullocks
Randle
Mitch
- Has spacing and passing, really not enough rim attackers

Rose
RJ
Lonzo
Randle
Mitch

- Maintains current level of spacing of Bullocks (does it though?) with much better secondary playmaking, but is Lonzo really as good a defender as this version of Bullocks? At 15 more million in cap space.

True goal - even if it takes a year of Lonzo on the Knicks where the Knicks roster is less than ideal:

Lonzo/Rose
Lavine or Beal or consolation prize DeRozan/IQ
RJ/Bullocks
Randle/Obi
Mitch/Noel/Taj/Some other guy
Villdozer and or Burks for depth
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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#316 » by NYKnickerbocker » Sun May 2, 2021 2:23 pm

Don’t want
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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#317 » by thebuzzardman » Sun May 2, 2021 2:31 pm

Last point.

Randle is like Zion
RJ isn't really like Ingram
Ball is like Ball.

If the Pels are kinda/sorta having some issues with a Ball/Ingram/Zion lineup where Ingram is a more advanced "get his own shot" guy vs RJ right now, why would the Knicks be that much better with a similar set of players, only RJ isn't as good as Ingram - yet.

Other than RJ is a more team oriented player than Ingram, but I don't think that changes the equation.

Again, I'd be fine with the Knicks getting him. It depends who the other wing is for next 2 years of RJ's development.
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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#318 » by Jeff Van Gully » Sun May 2, 2021 2:36 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:
cgf wrote:Lonzo has obvious flaws, but with his improved shot, I see a clear upgrade on Payton for that bigger/defensive PG spot in the starting lineup.


Payton at least gets to the rim. This is in no way an endorsement of Payton. So, either he takes Payton's spot, but off the bench, or the Knicks have to upgrade whatever wing position RJ isn't playing with a top level dribble/drive guy. Ideally more than that, but you get the point.

This post and my last one aren't bashing RJ or denigrating him in anyway. Randle can get his shot off at will, but RJ can't - yet. I feel it's a few years away. While Lonzo would spread the floor more for the Randle and RJ, I don't think he specifically would take them to a higher level if he started and Rose didn't. At his cost. Since he'd be bumping Bullocks if Rose still started.

Let me explain it better. I'd want the Knicks to get him. I'd either accept that Lonzo starting and Rose off the bench improved the Knicks, but not by much, but was an iterative move to make them better, but they still need a more creative driving wing than RJ is now to to pair with RJ and Randle, until RJ fully develops. To be truly competitive until that time. Because minus another deal, the starting lineup would probably look like:

Lonzo
RJ
Bullocks
Randle
Mitch
- Has spacing and passing, really not enough rim attackers

Rose
RJ
Lonzo
Randle
Mitch

- Maintains current level of spacing of Bullocks (does it though?) with much better secondary playmaking, but is Lonzo really as good a defender as this version of Bullocks? At 15 more million in cap space.

True goal - even if it takes a year of Lonzo on the Knicks where the Knicks roster is less than ideal:

Lonzo/Rose
Lavine or Beal or consolation prize DeRozan/IQ
RJ/Bullocks
Randle/Obi
Mitch/Noel/Taj/Some other guy
Villdozer and or Burks for depth


rim pressure is pretty much the #1 reason elf is still starting. thibs offense requires it of guards, and it's lonzo's achilles heel. not comparing the two directly, but frank's primary weakness is the same. frank has good court vision, can be trusted as an outside shooter, and is an otherworldly defender. cannot/does not put pressure on the rim. and this was a question mark of his coming into the league.

so, yeah... i don't see thibs being high on a lead guard who still can't get to the hole. and while haliburton is better at it so far, it's still by no means a strength. quickley at least can get there with the floater... and wants to. but it's still early to unleash him with that responsibility full time. (i'd still do it over starting payton. i just try to understand the rationale.)
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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#319 » by TKKnicks1 » Sun May 2, 2021 2:41 pm

Look if we are comparing Lonzo to Payton :lol: then it's a clear night and day upgrade. Lonzo has pure PG passing skills. Payton has pure nothing. But if we are thinking Lonzo is gonna come in and be a Chris Paul, Curry or Dame for us then your setting the expectations way too high. Take him for what he is. He will be the best PG we would have since Marbury and Marbury wasn't even a true PG IMO.

Knicks have the 2nd lowest payroll in the league. Just pay this man what he's worth and get him here. When the hell did the Knicks ever care about finances anyway.
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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#320 » by Jeff Van Gully » Sun May 2, 2021 2:46 pm

TKKnicks1 wrote:Look if we are comparing Lonzo to Payton :lol: then it's a clear night and day upgrade. Lonzo has pure PG passing skills. Payton has pure nothing. But if we are thinking Lonzo is gonna come in and be a Chris Paul, Curry or Dame for us then your setting the expectations way too high. Take him for what he is. He will be the best PG we would have since Marbury and Marbury wasn't even a true PG IMO.

Knicks have the 2nd lowest payroll in the league. Just pay this man what he's worth and get him here. When the hell did the Knicks ever care about finances anyway.


since about 5 seasons ago when we've refused to compromise on cap flexibility. and they hired brock aller to assure we're never broke again.

lonzo is a good player. but knicks have to spend on the right fits at this point. unless they want to spend on lonzo and add talent via trade, which they can. and if that added talent is some kind of scoring wing who puts pressure on the rim, then lonzo works just fine as a FA.

schroeder gets to the cup better and has improved as a scorer. i wouldn't be shocked if the knicks are waiting to see what happens with him.
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