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Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him?

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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#321 » by Deeeez Knicks » Sun May 2, 2021 3:03 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:Last point.

Randle is like Zion
RJ isn't really like Ingram
Ball is like Ball.

If the Pels are kinda/sorta having some issues with a Ball/Ingram/Zion lineup where Ingram is a more advanced "get his own shot" guy vs RJ right now, why would the Knicks be that much better with a similar set of players, only RJ isn't as good as Ingram - yet.

Other than RJ is a more team oriented player than Ingram, but I don't think that changes the equation.

Again, I'd be fine with the Knicks getting him. It depends who the other wing is for next 2 years of RJ's development.


Biggest difference between Knicks and the Pelicans is defense. They are bottom 5 in the league in defense while the Knicks have been one of the best defensive teams. As good as Zion and Ingram are on offense, they seem like liabilities on defense.

Offensively the Pelicans have a top 10 rating while the Knicks are around 20. Pelicans do seem like they have some issues.
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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#322 » by god shammgod » Sun May 2, 2021 3:18 pm

i don't even think of him as a point guard. he's a secondary creator. find any highlight video of him and all his passes are one simple pass or done on the run. in the half court he's just gonna stay perimeter and shoot or pass on the close out. that's it. he'll work well next to derozan though.....good morning everyone lol
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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#323 » by Deeeez Knicks » Sun May 2, 2021 3:20 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:
cgf wrote:Lonzo has obvious flaws, but with his improved shot, I see a clear upgrade on Payton for that bigger/defensive PG spot in the starting lineup.


Payton at least gets to the rim. This is in no way an endorsement of Payton. So, either he takes Payton's spot, but off the bench, or the Knicks have to upgrade whatever wing position RJ isn't playing with a top level dribble/drive guy. Ideally more than that, but you get the point.

This post and my last one aren't bashing RJ or denigrating him in anyway. Randle can get his shot off at will, but RJ can't - yet. I feel it's a few years away. While Lonzo would spread the floor more for the Randle and RJ, I don't think he specifically would take them to a higher level if he started and Rose didn't. At his cost. Since he'd be bumping Bullocks if Rose still started.

Let me explain it better. I'd want the Knicks to get him. I'd either accept that Lonzo starting and Rose off the bench improved the Knicks, but not by much, but was an iterative move to make them better, but they still need a more creative driving wing than RJ is now to to pair with RJ and Randle, until RJ fully develops. To be truly competitive until that time. Because minus another deal, the starting lineup would probably look like:

Lonzo
RJ
Bullocks
Randle
Mitch
- Has spacing and passing, really not enough rim attackers

Rose
RJ
Lonzo
Randle
Mitch

- Maintains current level of spacing of Bullocks (does it though?) with much better secondary playmaking, but is Lonzo really as good a defender as this version of Bullocks? At 15 more million in cap space.

True goal - even if it takes a year of Lonzo on the Knicks where the Knicks roster is less than ideal:

Lonzo/Rose
Lavine or Beal or consolation prize DeRozan/IQ
RJ/Bullocks
Randle/Obi
Mitch/Noel/Taj/Some other guy
Villdozer and or Burks for depth


Ultimately the Knicks are going for that last true goal you list where we get another star scorer like Lavine, Beal, etc. In that context Ball is a great fit as more of the 4th option that can also play/defend the other teams best guards.

Even on this current Knicks team, I think Ball would be a big upgrade. Can still have Rose off the bench and Quickley who pares well with both Ball and Rose. I do agree we would be missing that last piece that can create some offense and attack, but we have some means to acquire them at least
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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#324 » by Butch718 » Sun May 2, 2021 3:45 pm

Getting to rim won’t be much of an issue if Ball is initiating easy baskets on the break and finding shooters on the wing, which Elf is horrible at. Just think of all the times that Elf drove into traffic and ignored RJ on the wings.

Also, he’s a good defensive player with a vastly improved outside shot. His shooting would create more space for the Randle and RJ to operate.

I can understand not wanting to overpay, but if you don’t think that Ball improves this team you really don’t watch much ball outside the Knicks and it clearly shows.
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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#325 » by stuporman » Sun May 2, 2021 4:08 pm

It's like Lonzo is great at everything Elf is terrible at, which is alot of things and the one thing Elf can actually do without it really even helping the team very much at all, Lonzo isn't good at.

I do trust Thibs with any concerns I may have about Lonzo's skill set to get the most out of him individually and in the team dynamic. I also trust Rose and Aller to work the contractual side of it if they do decide Lomzo is the right piece.

Knick fans gave been getting chubby over RJ's improvement in shooting 3s and Lonzo is shooting nearly as well on even more volume for the second season in a row so shouldn't have any problem with him on that.
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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#326 » by Knicks365247 » Sun May 2, 2021 4:12 pm

Reign23 wrote:soooo. for what $ do we get him?


I have a feeling it'll be a S&T that's more favorable to the Knicks from a pure money standpoint (this way they don't have to compete with other teams) in exchange for one of the Mavs' picks.

If the Knicks do outright sign him then I expect a Poison Pill type contract where there's no way the Pelicans would be able to match.

stuporman wrote:It's like Lonzo is great at everything Elf is terrible at, which is alot of things and the one thing Elf can actually do without it really even helping the team very much at all, Lonzo isn't good at.

I do trust Thibs with any concerns I may have about Lonzo's skill set to get the most out of him individually and in the team dynamic. I also trust Rose and Aller to work the contractual side of it of they do decide Lomzo is the right piece.

Knick fans gave been getting chubby over RJ's improvement in shooting 3s and Lonzo is shooting nearly as well on even more volume for the second season in a row so shouldn't have any problem with him on that.


This is a really good post and I agree with all of it. Lonzo appears to me like *exactly* the type of player Thibs would love to have and who would thrive under him.
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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#327 » by stuporman » Sun May 2, 2021 4:27 pm

Knicks365247 wrote:
Reign23 wrote:soooo. for what $ do we get him?


I have a feeling it'll be a S&T that's more favorable to the Knicks from a pure money standpoint (this way they don't have to compete with other teams) in exchange for one of the Mavs' picks.

If the Knicks do outright sign him then I expect a Poison Pill type contract where there's no way the Pelicans would be able to match.

stuporman wrote:It's like Lonzo is great at everything Elf is terrible at, which is alot of things and the one thing Elf can actually do without it really even helping the team very much at all, Lonzo isn't good at.

I do trust Thibs with any concerns I may have about Lonzo's skill set to get the most out of him individually and in the team dynamic. I also trust Rose and Aller to work the contractual side of it of they do decide Lomzo is the right piece.

Knick fans gave been getting chubby over RJ's improvement in shooting 3s and Lonzo is shooting nearly as well on even more volume for the second season in a row so shouldn't have any problem with him on that.


This is a really good post and I agree with all of it. Lonzo appears to me like *exactly* the type of player Thibs would love to have and who would thrive under him.


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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#328 » by Nazrmohamed » Sun May 2, 2021 6:45 pm

KnicksGadfly wrote:
Nazrmohamed wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
Hype or nepotism....Im not going to give up on OBI just yet , but no way in hell was he scouted properly.


Well the same reason that Obi Toppin seems overhyped is the same reason why Haliburton and now Ball might not work out. And this is coming from someone who argued all summer for Haliburton, defend Toppin and have supported Ball coming here. And because of it I've settled down on my support of Ball.

WE WILL NOT RUN PICK AND ROLL where the intended action is that the PG coming off the screen opens his eyes and looks for passing opportunities, especially ones where the most likely target is the big who just made the screen for him.

There will be zero SteveNash/Amare moments. Zero Stockton/Malone moments. Zero Tre Young/John Collins moments. Zero Paul/Griffin. And people can hate on the analogy but Ball and Haliburton represent the Nash/Stockton/Young in these situations, and obviously Obi was the big. This is the skillset Obi won POY mastering. We've essentially abolished it. And while everyone bashes Obi to fawn over Haliburton they forget that Haliburton is the other end of the same issue. In fact hes sortve playing off the ball in Sacramento.


Has the high assist generating PG become out of favor? Has the non-ball dominant big who's somewhat of a rim runner fallen out of favor as well. Actually I know the answer. All we can focus on is what we do here and how our coach likes to play. I'm starting to question if Ball would fit in here. I appreciate his abilities but there's a reason why a guy like Nate could thrive under Thibs but the Knicks had no interest in Haliburton.

The Knicks need a younger version of Derrick Rose. And its not my favorite type of PG but it's what works for him so......I don't k or alot of guys like that but of those I've seen mentioned Lillard is the best player and the best fit. Schroeder sort of can do alittle of everything sortve a jack of all trades master of none type of PG. A utility knife sortve guy.


We're getting by on Peyton folks.


Wait so we basically drafted an older big man at 8 who doesn’t get defense as one of his strengths and can only finish when he gets a pg who passes him the ball? BPA folks, where you at?! Defend your boy!

The other thing with Haliburton is that he still looks good playing off ball. That type of versatility is helpful. You can sort of see it with Quickley in that he was scouted quickly in his first game and teams were already ready to guard his 3. That absolutely helps his teammates and it ain’t a surprise to me that Quickley, Randle and RJ jive.



Well NBA ready never meant most versatile or complete. It really should but most times it doesn't. And most bigs aren't in a position to create thier own offense so being assist dependent at this state isn't even alarming. You got 16yr vets with 1 or 2 skills. Also were not saying all this for a 3 yr bust. He didn't have the rookie season people expected, or he expected for that matter but hes on a winning team, contributes here and there. I think he'll be fine tbh. People already doubted last yrs crop of franchise level talents but you were sure to get a starter in the lottery. I don't think Toppin has proven that that's not still a possibility but it may not be here.
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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#329 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Sun May 2, 2021 8:40 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:Steal him from them.





I like Lonzo a lot as a player, in spite of some obvious flaws. The most obvious flaw is the one covered here many times, and that is his lack of inclination/ability to drive the ball.
Not only is that not the greatest attribute for a PG to have, but it's a really really bad attribute for a KNICK PG to have, at least as the Knicks are currently constituted.

IF the Knicks were to sign Lonzo, it would have to be with the following in mind:

Rose starts and Lonzo takes Bullocks role. Obviously with more passing.

or

Lonzo comes off the bench (Rose or someone like him still the starter)

or

Ball starts at PG but the Knicks also acquired either Lavine or Beal and, just to annoy, maybe DeRozan. (if only as an example of the starting lineup getting a known plus 3 level shot creator who gets to the rime)



I think getting Lonzo is a pathway to experimenting with IQ as a starter, you have two players with differing skills, one on attack while the other is fine being a ball mover and taking open shots. It allows IQ to play to his strengths without really worrying about whether he's a PG or not, and because of Lonzo's size it works defensively because Lonzo can take the larger player in the backcourt.
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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#330 » by cgf » Sun May 2, 2021 9:51 pm

Deeeez Knicks wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
cgf wrote:Lonzo has obvious flaws, but with his improved shot, I see a clear upgrade on Payton for that bigger/defensive PG spot in the starting lineup.


Payton at least gets to the rim. This is in no way an endorsement of Payton. So, either he takes Payton's spot, but off the bench, or the Knicks have to upgrade whatever wing position RJ isn't playing with a top level dribble/drive guy. Ideally more than that, but you get the point.

This post and my last one aren't bashing RJ or denigrating him in anyway. Randle can get his shot off at will, but RJ can't - yet. I feel it's a few years away. While Lonzo would spread the floor more for the Randle and RJ, I don't think he specifically would take them to a higher level if he started and Rose didn't. At his cost. Since he'd be bumping Bullocks if Rose still started.

Let me explain it better. I'd want the Knicks to get him. I'd either accept that Lonzo starting and Rose off the bench improved the Knicks, but not by much, but was an iterative move to make them better, but they still need a more creative driving wing than RJ is now to to pair with RJ and Randle, until RJ fully develops. To be truly competitive until that time. Because minus another deal, the starting lineup would probably look like:

Lonzo
RJ
Bullocks
Randle
Mitch
- Has spacing and passing, really not enough rim attackers

Rose
RJ
Lonzo
Randle
Mitch

- Maintains current level of spacing of Bullocks (does it though?) with much better secondary playmaking, but is Lonzo really as good a defender as this version of Bullocks? At 15 more million in cap space.

True goal - even if it takes a year of Lonzo on the Knicks where the Knicks roster is less than ideal:

Lonzo/Rose
Lavine or Beal or consolation prize DeRozan/IQ
RJ/Bullocks
Randle/Obi
Mitch/Noel/Taj/Some other guy
Villdozer and or Burks for depth


Ultimately the Knicks are going for that last true goal you list where we get another star scorer like Lavine, Beal, etc. In that context Ball is a great fit as more of the 4th option that can also play/defend the other teams best guards.

Even on this current Knicks team, I think Ball would be a big upgrade. Can still have Rose off the bench and Quickley who pares well with both Ball and Rose. I do agree we would be missing that last piece that can create some offense and attack, but we have some means to acquire them at least


Bingo, Lonzo would be a two-pronged move. Firstly to bolster us against regression next season, and then as a fit alongside that hypothetical third star that we'll probably trade for down the line, to pair with RJ & Julius. With a Booker/Mitchell/Fox or even a Lavine/Sexton eventually taking Reggie's starting spot, Lonzo just fits into Elf's spot; whether IQ maxes out as more of a 6th man or becomes that 3rd star himself.
dogrufus wrote:Plus the win would put us at .500 and 5 straight wins, making every poster here cream in their pants.

We're Knicks fans. We never get to cream.


cgmw wrote:Basically, in conclusion: I'd like Dolan to get off my lawn.
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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#331 » by Juco24 » Tue May 4, 2021 12:33 am

Lonzo very inconsistent... 0-8 - yuck
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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#332 » by cgf » Tue May 4, 2021 12:35 am

Juco24 wrote:Lonzo very inconsistent... 0-8 - yuck

Lonzo's a much improved 3pt shooter that teams can't ignore anymore, that doesn't mean he's Steph or Julius.
dogrufus wrote:Plus the win would put us at .500 and 5 straight wins, making every poster here cream in their pants.

We're Knicks fans. We never get to cream.


cgmw wrote:Basically, in conclusion: I'd like Dolan to get off my lawn.
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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#333 » by RHODEY » Tue May 4, 2021 2:54 am

One foot off the Lonzo Bandwagon...again :banghead:
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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#334 » by seren » Tue May 4, 2021 3:25 am

I won’t mind Lonzo on a short deal similar to Payton but that is simply not realistic. I would rather resign Rose and other guys on the roster. At least we know what we have with this group. Don’t see the benefit of makin Lonzo highest paid player on the roster
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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#335 » by Jimmit79 » Tue May 4, 2021 3:35 am

Lonzo is a good player ppl here just don't want him because of price tag well if you go into bargain bin you will only end up with payton frank and Knox types.

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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#336 » by RHODEY » Tue May 4, 2021 3:38 am

Jimmit79 wrote:Lonzo is a good player ppl here just don't want him because of price tag well if you go into bargain bin you will only end up with payton frank and Knox types.

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Inconsistent good maybe....do we want to want with that?
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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#337 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Tue May 4, 2021 3:39 am

RHODEY wrote:One foot off the Lonzo Bandwagon...again :banghead:

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Stay out!
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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#338 » by RHODEY » Tue May 4, 2021 3:45 am

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
RHODEY wrote:One foot off the Lonzo Bandwagon...again :banghead:

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Stay out!

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If he keeps this up I just might.
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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#339 » by Meat » Tue May 4, 2021 3:58 am

thebuzzardman wrote:Last point.

Randle is like Zion
RJ isn't really like Ingram
Ball is like Ball.

If the Pels are kinda/sorta having some issues with a Ball/Ingram/Zion lineup where Ingram is a more advanced "get his own shot" guy vs RJ right now, why would the Knicks be that much better with a similar set of players, only RJ isn't as good as Ingram - yet.

Other than RJ is a more team oriented player than Ingram, but I don't think that changes the equation.

Again, I'd be fine with the Knicks getting him. It depends who the other wing is for next 2 years of RJ's development.
you think the pel's problems are on the offensive end?
Zion is the worst defending pf in the league. point blank period.
Ingram is a trash defender
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Re: Lonzo Ball - What's your opinion of him? 

Post#340 » by dakomish23 » Tue May 4, 2021 4:00 am

In. Get him & Lowry. They weren’t going to wait before this season & they sure as hell aren’t going to wait now :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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