PG- Game of Zones Part Deux

[Reign23]

chances of us getting a top 5 pick is as likely as us winning the championship. we don’t have the assets to get it done and i don’t see the knicks even trading Randle or RJ for a better pick.

thibs would murder someone before he let leon trade randle or RJ for a rookie

yeah absolutely just floating around idead...

[mpharris36]

tbh I would throw a real package at one of those teams. basically everthing but RJ on the table for me.

everything but RJ probably doesn't get you there.

I would guess outside of Kuminga...the general consensus would be teams would probably rather have the top 4 rather than RJ. That is just speculation but that is my guess.

I'm not interested in trading RJ at this point for any "realistic" type offer.

RJ, to me, has a similar ceiling to anyone not named Cunningham or Mobley in this draft. I would only trade him for the chance at 1 of those 2 and even then I think you're sending the wrong message to guys around the league and guys on your roster about what you're really about as a franchise... RJ should be developed as a Knick period. Same with IQ IMO

I agree but if someone is going to give me Suggs for IQ and our pick...you have to take it

[Reign23]

everything but RJ probably doesn't get you there.

I would guess outside of Kuminga...the general consensus would be teams would probably rather have the top 4 rather than RJ. That is just speculation but that is my guess.

I'm not interested in trading RJ at this point for any "realistic" type offer.

RJ, to me, has a similar ceiling to anyone not named Cunningham or Mobley in this draft. I would only trade him for the chance at 1 of those 2 and even then I think you're sending the wrong message to guys around the league and guys on your roster about what you're really about as a franchise... RJ should be developed as a Knick period. Same with IQ IMO

Yeah you're not building a culture or a team identity if your roster is constantly a revolving door. The Knicks need to commit to certain players, properly evaluate their talent and build accordingly. RJ and Mitch represent values that I like, so they're untouchable to me.

I agree. but even tho I like mitch a lot, he is lightyears away from beeing untouchable.

[Chanel Bomber]

the only circumstance is Golden State and you would have to take Wiggins awful contract for them to do it.

and the knicks are not even thinking about doing this so it's all for nothing

correct the knicks made there bed with Thibs and trying to win games now...they are banking on getting someone via trade or FA...the risk you run is if you don't get a star player you run the risk of turning into Orlando north...we shall see

[mpharris36]

chances of us getting a top 5 pick is as likely as us winning the championship. we don’t have the assets to get it done and i don’t see the knicks even trading Randle or RJ for a better pick.

thibs would murder someone before he let leon trade randle or RJ for a rookie

yeah absolutely just floating around idead...

its an interesting convo because we thought we would at least be in the convo for a top 5 pick based on projections...we clearly have outperformed those projections so the only way to talk about the top 5 no matter how realistic it is...would be a godfather offer and I'm unless you are including RJ in..not sure we have the most sexy trade up pieces.

It goes to show how much we are just willing ourselves into wins right now. We will find out soon enough whether jumping the projected standings helped or hurt us in the long run.

[Chanel Bomber]

RJ, to me, has a similar ceiling to anyone not named Cunningham or Mobley in this draft. I would only trade him for the chance at 1 of those 2 and even then I think you're sending the wrong message to guys around the league and guys on your roster about what you're really about as a franchise... RJ should be developed as a Knick period. Same with IQ IMO

Yeah you're not building a culture or a team identity if your roster is constantly a revolving door. The Knicks need to commit to certain players, properly evaluate their talent and build accordingly. RJ and Mitch represent values that I like, so they're untouchable to me.

I agree. but even tho I like mitch a lot, he is lightyears away from beeing untouchable.

Fair enough, personally I'm betting on his All-NBA defense potential.

His FT shooting does concern me a little but F it.

[mpharris36]

and the knicks are not even thinking about doing this so it's all for nothing

correct the knicks made there bed with Thibs and trying to win games now...they are banking on getting someone via trade or FA...the risk you run is if you don't get a star player you run the risk of turning into Orlando north...we shall see

I mean its a tighter rope then you may think. At one point they had Vuc along with top 5 picks in Oladipo and Gordon...I'm sure at one point they didn't think they would treadmill. Unless you get that franchise changing player you kind of plateau...its an ugly reality.

[mpharris36]

I love mitch and IQ...and I'm sure Sham who is a huge fan of both would say the same thing

Mobley and Suggs are just far better prospects...its not a realistic scenario that any team would even closely value our guys outside of potentially RJ for a top 5 pick.

[Knicksfan1992]

everything but RJ probably doesn't get you there.

I would guess outside of Kuminga...the general consensus would be teams would probably rather have the top 4 rather than RJ. That is just speculation but that is my guess.

I'm not interested in trading RJ at this point for any "realistic" type offer.

RJ, to me, has a similar ceiling to anyone not named Cunningham or Mobley in this draft. I would only trade him for the chance at 1 of those 2 and even then I think you're sending the wrong message to guys around the league and guys on your roster about what you're really about as a franchise... RJ should be developed as a Knick period. Same with IQ IMO

I agree but if someone is going to give me Suggs for IQ and our pick...you have to take it

I love Suggs so ultimately I would do it too, but I think somehow fans have underrated IQ's offensive ceiling... This kid is putting up near league average efficiency without taking shots at the rim and 80% of his shots coming as pull ups as a damn 21 year old scrawny rookie. Getting rid of Quickley for another unknown is a scary proposition for me and should be for most Knicks fans.

But I do understand the principle that you have to give up something valuable to get something valuable...

[Reign23]

I love mitch and IQ...and I'm sure Sham who is a huge fan of both would say the same thing

Mobley and Suggs are just far better prospects...its not a realistic scenario that any team would even closely value our guys outside of potentially RJ for a top 5 pick.

damn, you hit me hard with that. and I am still not over dying on frank hill just a few days ago.

[Chanel Bomber]

correct the knicks made there bed with Thibs and trying to win games now...they are banking on getting someone via trade or FA...the risk you run is if you don't get a star player you run the risk of turning into Orlando north...we shall see

I mean its a tighter rope then you may think. At one point they had Vuc along with top 5 picks in Oladipo and Gordon...I'm sure at one point they didn't think they would treadmill. Unless you get that franchise changing player you kind of plateau...its an ugly reality.

No doubt.

[mpharris36]

RJ, to me, has a similar ceiling to anyone not named Cunningham or Mobley in this draft. I would only trade him for the chance at 1 of those 2 and even then I think you're sending the wrong message to guys around the league and guys on your roster about what you're really about as a franchise... RJ should be developed as a Knick period. Same with IQ IMO

I agree but if someone is going to give me Suggs for IQ and our pick...you have to take it

I love Suggs so ultimately I would do it too, but I think somehow fans have underrated IQ's offensive ceiling... This kid is putting up near league average efficiency without taking shots at the rim and 80% of his shots coming as pull ups as a damn 21 year old scrawny rookie. Getting rid of Quickley for another unknown is a scary proposition for me and should be for most Knicks fans.

But I do understand the principle that you have to give up something valuable to get something valuable...

oh I super value what IQ brings...he is one of only 3 rookies playing rotational minutes (Lamelo/Haliburton/IQ) with an actual positive TPA player efficiency.

The only person that doesn't seem to value it enough is thibs

But yes it just comes down to you have to give to get. Even if you really like a player.

[god shammgod]

I love mitch and IQ...and I'm sure Sham who is a huge fan of both would say the same thing

Mobley and Suggs are just far better prospects...its not a realistic scenario that any team would even closely value our guys outside of potentially RJ for a top 5 pick.

yeah, it'd hurt but you'd have to. you'd have to do it for a bunch of current all-stars too. if the sixers lose in round 1 and embiid wants out or dame or someone like that, you give them both and all the picks. they can keep kat though. i'm good on that.

[mpharris36]

I love mitch and IQ...and I'm sure Sham who is a huge fan of both would say the same thing

Mobley and Suggs are just far better prospects...its not a realistic scenario that any team would even closely value our guys outside of potentially RJ for a top 5 pick.

damn, you hit me hard with that. and I am still not over dying on frank hill just a few days ago.

[god shammgod]

Yeah you're not building a culture or a team identity if your roster is constantly a revolving door. The Knicks need to commit to certain players, properly evaluate their talent and build accordingly. RJ and Mitch represent values that I like, so they're untouchable to me.

I agree. but even tho I like mitch a lot, he is lightyears away from beeing untouchable.

Fair enough, personally I'm betting on his All-NBA defense potential.

His FT shooting does concern me a little but F it.

he's gonna go through a period now where he can do very little except shoot. hopefully he and then organization are fully invested in making that happen.

[thebuzzardman]

I find the narrative that RJ can’t shoot off the dribble funny. Especially since the main difference between his recent tear he’s been on and earlier this season is that he’s been hitting the pull-up jumper off the dribble at the elbows and hitting the floater off the dribble in situations where he can’t get all the way to the rim.

The only thing that happened vs the Heat was that he was missing 3s and was guarded by Butler, one of the best defenders on the perimeter in the league and a super competitive player.

Same way Burks was shut down last night and so was Randle by Bam. NO ONE could do anything against that Heat defense and how Spo game planned to shut down the entire paint and make the Knicks beat you with the jumper.

If last night changed your outlook on any Knicks player, you just have a narrative to push.

For me, Melo brought it up and I think it's worthy of discussion. In terms of where RJ is NOW.

Melo might have inferred it's his arc.

I don't think it is. But it might be. But I don't think so.

Knicks can wait until next year. Or it might be after next year, and into RJ's 4th year. For RJ to turn into that score at will guy.

It's clear if the Knicks want to be a serious playoff team, neither RJ or Randle bring that "f*ck you, I'm scoring, and don't care who the defender or style of defense is". Well, they also lack a little more knock down shooting that says "f*ck your zone" as well, though I think those guys would benefit from the first person as well.

Simpler version:

If your C is going to be somewhat offensively limited like Mitch or Noel, then at the least the PG and SF need to be more talented than Payton and Bullocks to kind of carry that guy on offense - carry them in the sense they only do some specific things well on offense, not that they are useless.

That alone would make the Knicks a playoff team.
If one of those guys was fairly elite in creating his own shot from all over, Knicks are a playoff team that is of concern to other playoff teams.

They've got 5 first round picks in 3 drafts.
They've got extra 2nd rounders
They've got a window to work in while Randle/Mitch/RJ/IQ are underpaid/of good value.
They've got the money for at least a max cat and another good player before their prices go up, if the timing works out.
They've probably got to make a trade, because the FA pickings seem slim for that elite scorer, though guys like Ball and Powell would help the team - probably an "either/or" decision if they want a max cat guy in some trade.

[mpharris36]

I love mitch and IQ...and I'm sure Sham who is a huge fan of both would say the same thing

Mobley and Suggs are just far better prospects...its not a realistic scenario that any team would even closely value our guys outside of potentially RJ for a top 5 pick.

yeah, it'd hurt but you'd have to. you'd have to do it for a bunch of current all-stars too. if the sixers lose in round 1 and embiid wants out or dame or someone like that, you give them both and all the picks. they can keep kat though. i'm good on that.

im not sure Leon feels the same way

[god shammgod]

I love mitch and IQ...and I'm sure Sham who is a huge fan of both would say the same thing

Mobley and Suggs are just far better prospects...its not a realistic scenario that any team would even closely value our guys outside of potentially RJ for a top 5 pick.

yeah, it'd hurt but you'd have to. you'd have to do it for a bunch of current all-stars too. if the sixers lose in round 1 and embiid wants out or dame or someone like that, you give them both and all the picks. they can keep kat though. i'm good on that.

im not sure Leon feels the same way

i am worried about that. he'll have the knicks out of the top 10 on d in a week.

[mpharris36]

yeah, it'd hurt but you'd have to. you'd have to do it for a bunch of current all-stars too. if the sixers lose in round 1 and embiid wants out or dame or someone like that, you give them both and all the picks. they can keep kat though. i'm good on that.

im not sure Leon feels the same way

i am worried about that. he'll have the knicks out of the top 10 on d in a week.

Leon probably thinks Thibs is a miracle worker. If we are being honest (kentucky connections, new york connections). There is no way the Knicks wouldn't be at the forefront of a KAT trade discussions if he is made available whether we like it or not.

Beggers can't be choosers.

[thebuzzardman]

I think it's a legitimate criticism to say the RJ needs to get better at creating jumpers off the dribble

I also think it's fair to say he's shown flashes of being able to do so, more with pull-up mids, less so with pull-up and step-back 3s, which is something I think a true #1 needs to have in his arsenal

I would also point out that he's still really young and can't legally drink in the US yet.

I remember when the drinking age was 18!

We all drank at 14 anyway.