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PG: Lack fundamentals

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Re: PG: Lack fundamentals 

Post#461 » by Knicksfan1992 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 2:39 pm

I doubt the Mintz thing has any real fire to it. He's Austin Rivers agent as well and we sent him home and essentially cut his azz lol.

The only thing I can see is that the Knicks were probably trying to move Payton in that 3 way deal with Lowry and got stuck because Toronto demanded too much and now don't want to buy him out to piss off Mintz more than they have to...

I just think Thibs values his ability to consistently get to the rim even if he makes the wrong decisions once getting there. Do I agree? Hell no but I'm guessing that's Thibs rationale
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Re: PG: Lack fundamentals 

Post#462 » by mpharris36 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 2:43 pm

GONYK wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:Interesting point of view regarding Payton's starting role as it pertains to future negotiations with Randle, since they share the same agent.

If that theory is true, then this whole front office is incompetent.

Randle's an All-Star, but he hasn't played a single playoff game in his career. He ranks #22 all-time in most games played without a playoff appearance. And the Knicks are a below .500 team right now.

You don't adapt and compromise the integrity of the team from a basketball perspective for a fairly unproven player like Julius. He hasn't earned anything as far as I'm concerned.

But it would make sense that the Knicks are starting Payton for political reasons.

Of course, Mintz will try to present Randle and Payton as a package deal. Which would be the ultimate curse on this franchise.


Leon Rose damn near ran CAA...if needs elf to strengthen a Randle offer then may god help us all. Leon should have enough pull in CAA to tell Mintz to f*ck off.


I think, without question, Elf is being played for political reasons.

I don't think Julius Randle gives a f*ck about Elf, in terms of getting paid though.


At this point its the only viable reasoning right? We both acknowledge thibs isn't blind and he's not an idiot so he has to be seeing the same things we are seeing. He's not a good defender, he doesn't distribute the basketball, he can't shoot, and yes he puts pressure on the rim but not efficiently...so what is he doing to help?

I think it was brought up on the Macri/Cohen/Shwinny podcast...Randle w/ payton on the floor the knicks are like -2.7 NET rating and in the 37th percentile (essentially play like a bottom 1/3 team). When Randle is on without payton the knicks are like +8.2 NET rating. They are in the 90th percentile in terms of NET rating. Damn near elite category.

How is it justifiable to play payton at this point when there are clearly better options and every stat proves it. We play like an upper echelon team with Randle without Payton...and Thibs says he looks at NET rating too? So what else could it be?
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Re: PG: Lack fundamentals 

Post#463 » by Jeff Van Gully » Wed Apr 7, 2021 3:11 pm

Chanel Bomber wrote:
Jeff Van Gully wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:The limitations are more than just talent. They are also philosophical, if not entirely psychological when it comes to Thibs. A front office and a head coach who think it's perfectly reasonable to start a non-shooting, non-defending point guard despite there being better options signal that they might not be in tune with the way basketball is played in 2021, or that they might just be a step slow. That's a major red flag for me. Leon Rose had the opportunity to address this issue in the off-season and before the deadline. And Thibs has enough guards to manufacture a Frankenstein backcourt that operates more efficiently than what he's stuck to all year. Yet nothing has happened.

I maintain that this team isn't as good as its record suggests either, because of strength of schedule and because the team has been less hit by injuries/COVID protocol than a lot of its opponents. The idea of the play-in tournament gives the impression that this is a playoff team, but I'd be very surprised if this team finished in the top 8 in the East.

My point is, with a neutral strength of schedule, and an equal distribution of injuries, I think this club with these rotations is clearly a sub-.500 team. With some tweaks to the rotation, and a front office that's more proactive in addressing some of the issues we have at key positions, this team could actually be a legit .500 team.

One of the biggest things holding this franchise back and (in my opinion) clouding the judgement of a lot of Knicks fans (not you) is low expectations.


I’m with you on the elf thing. Team looks to be shooting better and more often from long range.

I totally get watching the frustrating things about thibs and being... frustrated. But to be mad at him too long is to discredit that he’s the reason we’re not a heaping pile of dog schidt. Instead we look like a playoff team.

Dude is spinning straw into gold. Then maybe making a couple of bad watches?

That's where we disagree, I guess.

This is not gold we're getting. At best, he's turning straw into bronze. Or good old reliable metal.

Which goes back to my point about low expectations. Is Thibs really doing a great job and getting the most out of this roster, or did he simply inherit a mediocre roster that underperformed under Fizdale (the worst coach in the NBA) and Miller (a G-League coach) and then naturally became respectable with an actual NBA head coach at the helm and with the improvement of the young guys particularly RJ and Mitch?

The team was a heaping pile of dog chit under Fizdale. And Fizdale shouldn't be the standard based on which we judge Thibs, because he was so bad.

Thibs deserves credit for implementing a defensive system and having all the players buy in. He has changed culture, for the better. Not every head coach can do that, and that's why he's credible and deserves to coach this team. But I think about half of the NBA HCs could've gotten the team this far. Thibs an average NBA HC in my view. Maybe top 13-15 range. I don't think it warrants an ovation. It's the minimum the Knicks should be aiming for.


i hear you, and i respect it. but you're right about where we disagree. we're probably not as bad as fiz had us, but i think we're close to if not at the height of what this group can do with some minor exceptions we generally seem to agree on. more spacing and shooting, which seems to be on the rise. it keeps coming back to the one guy kind of in the way of opening things up, and the need for overall improvement in the backcourt.

i think there's good reason for why the knicks have been a "surprise" team so far. the expectations were much, much lower than what we've actualized. i don't know if i buy just any coach making this group tough as nails. not suggesting thibs is the only one who could have done it either. i was hoping for budenholzer when we went with fiz for a lot of the reasons why i love thibs.
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Re: PG: Lack fundamentals 

Post#464 » by Deeeez Knicks » Wed Apr 7, 2021 3:14 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
GONYK wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
Leon Rose damn near ran CAA...if needs elf to strengthen a Randle offer then may god help us all. Leon should have enough pull in CAA to tell Mintz to f*ck off.


I think, without question, Elf is being played for political reasons.

I don't think Julius Randle gives a f*ck about Elf, in terms of getting paid though.


At this point its the only viable reasoning right? We both acknowledge thibs isn't blind and he's not an idiot so he has to be seeing the same things we are seeing. He's not a good defender, he doesn't distribute the basketball, he can't shoot, and yes he puts pressure on the rim but not efficiently...so what is he doing to help?

I think it was brought up on the Macri/Cohen/Shwinny podcast...Randle w/ payton on the floor the knicks are like -2.7 NET rating and in the 37th percentile (essentially play like a bottom 1/3 team). When Randle is on without payton the knicks are like +8.2 NET rating. They are in the 90th percentile in terms of NET rating. Damn near elite category.

How is it justifiable to play payton at this point when there are clearly better options and every stat proves it. We play like an upper echelon team with Randle without Payton...and Thibs says he looks at NET rating too? So what else could it be?


I think Thibs just has a hard time trusting rookies and Rose hasn't played enough where he will change the starting lineup. It goes with Thibs history of sticking with certain things and trusting veterans more then rookies. Payton is his security blanket that he feels he can trust, especially on the defensive end.
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Re: PG: Lack fundamentals 

Post#465 » by GONYK » Wed Apr 7, 2021 3:14 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
GONYK wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
Leon Rose damn near ran CAA...if needs elf to strengthen a Randle offer then may god help us all. Leon should have enough pull in CAA to tell Mintz to f*ck off.


I think, without question, Elf is being played for political reasons.

I don't think Julius Randle gives a f*ck about Elf, in terms of getting paid though.


At this point its the only viable reasoning right? We both acknowledge thibs isn't blind and he's not an idiot so he has to be seeing the same things we are seeing. He's not a good defender, he doesn't distribute the basketball, he can't shoot, and yes he puts pressure on the rim but not efficiently...so what is he doing to help?

I think it was brought up on the Macri/Cohen/Shwinny podcast...Randle w/ payton on the floor the knicks are like -2.7 NET rating and in the 37th percentile (essentially play like a bottom 1/3 team). When Randle is on without payton the knicks are like +8.2 NET rating. They are in the 90th percentile in terms of NET rating. Damn near elite category.

How is it justifiable to play payton at this point when there are clearly better options and every stat proves it. We play like an upper echelon team with Randle without Payton...and Thibs says he looks at NET rating too? So what else could it be?


I think Thibs just values rim pressure from a PG over anything else, for better or worse. I hope it's nothing more sinister/incompetent than that.

If Rose was healthier and could handle more mins, maybe the math would change on Elf's playing time. Thibs is just respecting the vet status right now over actual production.
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Re: PG: Lack fundamentals 

Post#466 » by mpharris36 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 3:20 pm

Deeeez Knicks wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
GONYK wrote:
I think, without question, Elf is being played for political reasons.

I don't think Julius Randle gives a f*ck about Elf, in terms of getting paid though.


At this point its the only viable reasoning right? We both acknowledge thibs isn't blind and he's not an idiot so he has to be seeing the same things we are seeing. He's not a good defender, he doesn't distribute the basketball, he can't shoot, and yes he puts pressure on the rim but not efficiently...so what is he doing to help?

I think it was brought up on the Macri/Cohen/Shwinny podcast...Randle w/ payton on the floor the knicks are like -2.7 NET rating and in the 37th percentile (essentially play like a bottom 1/3 team). When Randle is on without payton the knicks are like +8.2 NET rating. They are in the 90th percentile in terms of NET rating. Damn near elite category.

How is it justifiable to play payton at this point when there are clearly better options and every stat proves it. We play like an upper echelon team with Randle without Payton...and Thibs says he looks at NET rating too? So what else could it be?


I think Thibs just has a hard time trusting rookies and Rose hasn't played enough where he will change the starting lineup. It goes with Thibs history of sticking with certain things and trusting veterans more then rookies. Payton is his security blanket that he feels he can trust, especially on the defensive end.


which makes me think there is more to this...how can you watch payton and think good defense?
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Re: PG: Lack fundamentals 

Post#467 » by Deeeez Knicks » Wed Apr 7, 2021 3:25 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
At this point its the only viable reasoning right? We both acknowledge thibs isn't blind and he's not an idiot so he has to be seeing the same things we are seeing. He's not a good defender, he doesn't distribute the basketball, he can't shoot, and yes he puts pressure on the rim but not efficiently...so what is he doing to help?

I think it was brought up on the Macri/Cohen/Shwinny podcast...Randle w/ payton on the floor the knicks are like -2.7 NET rating and in the 37th percentile (essentially play like a bottom 1/3 team). When Randle is on without payton the knicks are like +8.2 NET rating. They are in the 90th percentile in terms of NET rating. Damn near elite category.

How is it justifiable to play payton at this point when there are clearly better options and every stat proves it. We play like an upper echelon team with Randle without Payton...and Thibs says he looks at NET rating too? So what else could it be?


I think Thibs just has a hard time trusting rookies and Rose hasn't played enough where he will change the starting lineup. It goes with Thibs history of sticking with certain things and trusting veterans more then rookies. Payton is his security blanket that he feels he can trust, especially on the defensive end.


which makes me think there is more to this...how can you watch payton and think good defense?


I agree that Payton is not a good defender. But Thibs seems to trust him on that end for his size and experience.

Every coach seems to have weird sub patterns and quirks that are hard to explain.
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Re: PG: Lack fundamentals 

Post#468 » by GONYK » Wed Apr 7, 2021 3:27 pm

Deeeez Knicks wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:
I think Thibs just has a hard time trusting rookies and Rose hasn't played enough where he will change the starting lineup. It goes with Thibs history of sticking with certain things and trusting veterans more then rookies. Payton is his security blanket that he feels he can trust, especially on the defensive end.


which makes me think there is more to this...how can you watch payton and think good defense?


I agree that Payton is not a good defender. But Thibs seems to trust him on that end for his size and experience.

Every coach seems to have weird sub patterns and quirks that are hard to explain.


Remember that one time when Elfrid Payton flagrantly disregarded the coach's gameplan, and decided to guard KYRIE IRVING by himself and lost us the game?

I wonder how Thibs felt about that?
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Re: PG: Lack fundamentals 

Post#469 » by mpharris36 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 3:30 pm

Deeeez Knicks wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:
I think Thibs just has a hard time trusting rookies and Rose hasn't played enough where he will change the starting lineup. It goes with Thibs history of sticking with certain things and trusting veterans more then rookies. Payton is his security blanket that he feels he can trust, especially on the defensive end.


which makes me think there is more to this...how can you watch payton and think good defense?


I agree that Payton is not a good defender. But Thibs seems to trust him on that end for his size and experience.

Every coach seems to have weird sub patterns and quirks that are hard to explain.


Kyrie bodied him on a drive...we had a kid that at 18 years old was defending Julius Randle on switches and not losing an inch in the post. That is size and experience as a defender.

The guy he currently plays, plays awful defense 95% of the time and then once a game makes a steal or something but he has even MSG saying payton is "known" for his defense. Tone setting!!!!!! :lol:
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Re: PG: Lack fundamentals 

Post#470 » by Deeeez Knicks » Wed Apr 7, 2021 3:31 pm

GONYK wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
which makes me think there is more to this...how can you watch payton and think good defense?


I agree that Payton is not a good defender. But Thibs seems to trust him on that end for his size and experience.

Every coach seems to have weird sub patterns and quirks that are hard to explain.


Remember that one time when Elfrid Payton flagrantly disregarded the coach's gameplan, and decided to guard KYRIE IRVING by himself and lost us the game?

I wonder how Thibs felt about that?


:lol:

I am with you guys and can't really defend this...pretty much every game Payton makes mistake after mistake and it all gets brushed off where as if Quickley looks at Thibs the wrong way he gets sent to the bench fast
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Re: PG: Lack fundamentals 

Post#471 » by nedleeds » Wed Apr 7, 2021 3:56 pm

Zenzibar wrote:
nedleeds wrote:
Zenzibar wrote:

What I meant was the 1st game, just to correct my post.

Winning trumps losing everyday then dropping 2 positions in the lottery.


We lose every day that our young players are benched for Payton, Bullock and Gibson. We lose every day Randle plays 39 minutes to barely beat the Wizards or that he plays 38 minutes in a 20 point blow up.


If Obi and IQ were to play 30 minutes, we'll be in the position you would want the Knicks to be in. That is in the Lottery slipping 2-3 spots back in the draft.
yuk!


Sounds great, at least I'd have the lottery and the draft to look forward to as of now I have nothing. I know how this aborted rebuild ends.

Enjoy the 10th seed, not having any idea of what to do with our rookie scale players up for extension, the 11th pick in the draft instead of the 2nd, and a fake winning culture speech from Thibs and CAA mafia.

It's even worse because RJ looks like he can be a high end rotation player on a good team with a little more work. But we'll never get a number 1 to pair with him because we'll pick in the teens.
Zenzibar wrote:Nevertheless, Payton is not a finished product yet and unless the team moves him in a couple of weeks, I anticipate him trending upward with this coaching staff.
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Re: PG: Lack fundamentals 

Post#472 » by K-DOT » Wed Apr 7, 2021 4:31 pm

The ability of the human mind to disregard evidence that runs contrary to one's own beliefs is well documented

Thibs probably believes Elfrid is a good defender, so the evidence to the contrary doesn't change his mind. In fact, it likely strengthens his belief in him

Confirmation bias is a hell of a drug.
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Re: PG: Lack fundamentals 

Post#473 » by 3toheadmelo » Wed Apr 7, 2021 7:34 pm

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Re: PG: Lack fundamentals 

Post#474 » by Chanel Bomber » Wed Apr 7, 2021 7:48 pm

K-DOT wrote:The ability of the human mind to disregard evidence that runs contrary to one's own beliefs is well documented

Thibs probably believes Elfrid is a good defender, so the evidence to the contrary doesn't change his mind. In fact, it likely strengthens his belief in him

Confirmation bias is a hell of a drug.

A lot of people would rather twist their interpretation of the evidence or disregard it completely so that it doesn't contradict their beliefs, instead of adjusting their beliefs to the evidence that's in front of them. It's maddening when it's obvious. Eg. Thibs with LeFraud.
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Re: PG: Lack fundamentals 

Post#475 » by Chanel Bomber » Wed Apr 7, 2021 7:49 pm

If LeFraud's family name was Smith instead of Payton he'd already be out of the league.

We all know it.
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Re: PG: Lack fundamentals 

Post#476 » by K-DOT » Wed Apr 7, 2021 10:38 pm

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Re: PG: Lack fundamentals 

Post#477 » by Zenzibar » Wed Apr 7, 2021 11:38 pm

nedleeds wrote:
Zenzibar wrote:
nedleeds wrote:
We lose every day that our young players are benched for Payton, Bullock and Gibson. We lose every day Randle plays 39 minutes to barely beat the Wizards or that he plays 38 minutes in a 20 point blow up.


If Obi and IQ were to play 30 minutes, we'll be in the position you would want the Knicks to be in. That is in the Lottery slipping 2-3 spots back in the draft.
yuk!


Sounds great, at least I'd have the lottery and the draft to look forward to as of now I have nothing. I know how this aborted rebuild ends.

Enjoy the 10th seed, not having any idea of what to do with our rookie scale players up for extension, the 11th pick in the draft instead of the 2nd, and a fake winning culture speech from Thibs and CAA mafia.

It's even worse because RJ looks like he can be a high end rotation player on a good team with a little more work. But we'll never get a number 1 to pair with him because we'll pick in the teens.



Your projections are set rather low for RJ, so you wanting another good luck crack at the lottery is understandable. But drafting is not an exact science or Michael would have been drafted 1st. I'm I not right?

The only way to lose that many, despite Thibs is if we didn't have Randle or Barrett playing at a higher level. Wouldn't you rather have development and not just drafting kids?

We can also agree that the team is in dire need of a point guard and that there are 2 All-star level picks in Suggs and Cade. But our luck has been that we miss out on these kids, regardless if we have the worse record or not.

BTW, RJ is acutally a young 20yr old that is improving in all fronts. It can be argued that RJ is better at defending than both Zion and Ja, therefore Barrett is poised to be a huge factor at both ends of the floor. When you have young players actually getting better for once, you're going to have more wins. It's part of the process.
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Re: PG: Lack fundamentals 

Post#478 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Thu Apr 8, 2021 12:50 am

O/u

14 total shots for RJ, he's got it going, do we think he gets 9 more shots for the rest of the game?
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Re: PG: Lack fundamentals 

Post#479 » by HighRyzer83 » Thu Apr 8, 2021 3:28 am

NewKnicks wrote:
HighRyzer83 wrote:
omerome wrote:I don't understand how he's almost getting ignored on offense at times. There were two good times when he was completely open for an alley-oop or a layup and the ball never came. And then I noticed his disappointment shortly after as to say, "what do I have to do out there guys?", it's sad.

Yeah he instinctively knows how to get open. His judge of distance, coupled with his motor = really remarkable for a rookie. This translated from Dayton. Except in Dayton they gave him the ball, rewarding his excellent movement. They want to pretend like he's lost out there, but the truth is, his offensive IQ is intuitive and his finishing abilities are extraordinary. There no doubt he would the favorite for ROY in a team like Memphis. We really are giving him a disservice with thibs and our "pros". It's only a matter of time before he grows disgruntled, as he should. And then we'll trade him for peanuts only to watch him thrive on another team.


There's no doubt Obi would be the favorite for ROTY? Obi's offensive IQ is intuitive and his finishing abilities are extraordinary?

It's only a matter of time before he gets disgruntled?

These type of statements are why Knicks fans always catch crap around the league. While Obi has shown a little bit in the last few games in limited minutes, let's not get crazy.

So why don't argue those points like a big boy instead of talking crap about knicks fans with subjective observation?
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Re: PG: Lack fundamentals 

Post#480 » by NewKnicks » Thu Apr 8, 2021 4:27 pm

HighRyzer83 wrote:
NewKnicks wrote:
HighRyzer83 wrote:Yeah he instinctively knows how to get open. His judge of distance, coupled with his motor = really remarkable for a rookie. This translated from Dayton. Except in Dayton they gave him the ball, rewarding his excellent movement. They want to pretend like he's lost out there, but the truth is, his offensive IQ is intuitive and his finishing abilities are extraordinary. There no doubt he would the favorite for ROY in a team like Memphis. We really are giving him a disservice with thibs and our "pros". It's only a matter of time before he grows disgruntled, as he should. And then we'll trade him for peanuts only to watch him thrive on another team.


There's no doubt Obi would be the favorite for ROTY? Obi's offensive IQ is intuitive and his finishing abilities are extraordinary?

It's only a matter of time before he gets disgruntled?

These type of statements are why Knicks fans always catch crap around the league. While Obi has shown a little bit in the last few games in limited minutes, let's not get crazy.

So why don't argue those points like a big boy instead of talking crap about knicks fans with subjective observation?


I'm talking about specific Knicks fans like you who make the rest of us look bad with crazy statements like you one you made.

There's nothing extraordinary about Obi Toppin. Let's get real. And who cares if he gets disgruntled? He needs to earn his minutes with his play on the court, and in practice.

I like Obi and want him to succeed, but I try to live closer to reality in my assessments.

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