ImageImageImageImageImage

Horseshoes & Hand Grenades AKA the Knicks in close games

Moderators: K-DOT, Deeeez Knicks, Capn'O, Thugger HBC, j4remi, Jeff Van Gully, mrpoetryNmotion, mpharris36, NoLayupRule, King of Canada, GONYK

User avatar
moocow007
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 93,627
And1: 20,496
Joined: Jan 07, 2002
Location: In front of the computer, where else?
       

Horseshoes & Hand Grenades AKA the Knicks in close games 

Post#1 » by moocow007 » Thu Apr 8, 2021 8:15 pm

As we all know the Knicks have lost a string of close games where they just can't seem to finish at the end and come out on top.

I mentioned this during last nights No Blood No Foul livestream how the Knicks have problems winning the close games and always seem to falter down the stretch. Pointed to a set of numbers called "Clutch" stats and focused specifically on the "Clutch Points" stat. "Clutch Points" is the number of points a player averages PER 36 minutes during the last 5 minutes of a game where neither team is up by more than 5 points. The notion is that the last 5 minutes of a close game is where the true clutch guys shine. So the reason for looking at this stat is to see where the Knicks stand in terms of having "clutch" players (compared to other teams) and who, statistically speaking, the Knicks most clutch players have been.

Based on this stat, the "most clutch" player in the NBA this season has been SGA who has averaged 51 points per 36 minutes in the clutch. Dame Lillard, Joel Embiid, Steph Curry and Zach LaVine round out the top 5 most clutch players this season. Lillard and Steph probably aren't surprising to anyone as both guys have ice in their veins and have historically been considered big time game closers. The fact that Embiid is there may be a bit surprising as 5 'power players' (PF or C types) that rank in the top 50 clutch but it really goes to show how dominant Embiid is when he's healthy.

From a Knicks standpoint (as I mentioned yesterday and that Jim actually got right on the first try), their 2 most clutch offensive players this season has not been Randle or Barrett but rather IQ and Burks. IQ and Burks both are averaging 28 clutch points per 36 (which puts then at 35 and 37 respectively across all players in the NBA). Randle is averaging 21 clutch points per 36 (ranked 55 in the NBA) and Barrett 18 (ranked 73 in the NBA).

Now there's a lot you can read from these numbers right?

Firstly it may justify what most fans have already said, that down the stretch you want IQ in the game. Burks isn't a surprise to me (as it is probably to more Knick fans) as he can score multiple ways and has a very easy natural flow to his offensive game. But it may indicate that you want to make sure that both guys are in the game in such scenarios.

Now the natural reaction, especially for Knick fans with agenda's, is to say "Randle Sucks!" or "Randle isn't clutch" or "you can't win with Randle". After all shouldn't he be the most clutch scorer on the team since he's paid the most and supposed their "best player"? Possibly. But it's interesting that there are only 7 other power players in the NBA that are more "clutch" than Randle. Who are they? Embiid obviously as mentioned. He's then followed by Zion, Jokic, Naz Reid, Towns, Bam and Clint Capela. Those are the only guys that are considered more clutch offensively. That's not bad at all for a guy compared to his pears especially when you consider that these other guys have better PG's that can get them easy looks than Randle come clutch time.

What is also clear that pretty much the bulk of the guys on the "clutch" list are guys that can create their own shots off the dribble and get to the basket. It's not even "shooters" as there are guys at the top of the list that are not good shooters.

Yeah it sucks that Randle can't seem to carry the Knicks over in these close games but I don't know how much of that is Randle's fault nor, more importantly, a realistic expectation within the overall NBA landscape.

For anyone that is curious and want to watch the cast, you can do so here...

KnicksGadfly
General Manager
Posts: 8,802
And1: 5,204
Joined: Jul 29, 2007
Location: Rent Free
   

Re: Horseshoes & Hand Grenades AKA the Knicks in close games 

Post#2 » by KnicksGadfly » Thu Apr 8, 2021 8:26 pm

Anyone else read it as horse hoes instead of horse shoes?

As for Randle, I got appreciation for his efforts this year. The guy is doing what he can as the leader. We all know the Knicks are going to be gunning for their 1A option sooner rather than later and this version of Randle can play with them
Commander of the Dallas Tank!

The mission: to end false narratives about the Knicks

Example of Fake Narratives:
-The Melo era should be celebrated
-Phil Jackson was a good GM
cgmw
RealGM
Posts: 17,757
And1: 4,294
Joined: Jul 23, 2003
Location: Winning now since 1973
Contact:
 

Re: Horseshoes & Hand Grenades AKA the Knicks in close games 

Post#3 » by cgmw » Thu Apr 8, 2021 9:21 pm

If/when the Knicks acquire another alpha, I’d be surprised if Randle doesn’t regress. You can see Randle’s ego struggling on nearly every play of every game to assert itself as top dog. You especially see it with his incessant whining to the refs. He’s just not comfortable thinking of himself as the top dog, and it really shows in the final possession. Notice how he’ll force up bad shots after the opposing team’s best player makes a good play. Notice how he withered next to Marcus Morris in big moments but also just calling for regular plays. Notice how he’ll bring the ball up himself as an ego thing when his mind has spun out. You really saw it last season with his spin moves and terrible decision making — his mind just isn’t strong enough to keep his body under control in big moments. He’s trying so hard to be somebody he might not be yet.

Insane Thibs will keep force feeding looks to Randle no matter how tired he gets this season and hopefully it helps Randle grow. His skill set should translate Ok to clutch buckets, especially the mid-range baseline fade, but also not a bad step back and certainly strong AF going to the rim to draw a foul. The only thing keeping him back is his own mind (and Thibs insane minutes distribution).

But my prediction is Randle regresses the minute the Knicks acquire another legit All Star because so much of his game right now is predicated on a very delicate ego that isn’t fully comfortable being the man.

Meanwhile Thibs is an ass for not developing IQ as a cold blooded assassin. That kid has what it takes to hit a bucket in a big moment, but Thibs clearly doesn’t trust him.
"Sell the team. Sell the team. Sell the team."
User avatar
Capn'O
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 62,051
And1: 55,530
Joined: Dec 16, 2005
Location: Let's Stop and Get A Hot Dog
 

Re: Horseshoes & Hand Grenades AKA the Knicks in close games 

Post#4 » by Capn'O » Thu Apr 8, 2021 9:36 pm

Yeah. We need a strong lead guard. Sigh.

the "most clutch" player in the NBA this season has been SGA who has averaged 51 points per 36 minutes in the clutch.


Ahhhhhhhhhhh.

No surprise that Quick and Burks are the best we have as they're guys that can shoot and go north-south.
BAF Clippers
PG: SGA Conley Chiozza
SG: KCP Melton Bacon
SF: Middleton THT
PF: DFS Bjelica Toliver
C: Vuc Nurkic Holmes

RIP Mags :beer:
"Greatness wasn't worth anything if you couldn't share it."-Kobe
User avatar
aq_ua
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 18,284
And1: 4,560
Joined: May 08, 2002
Location: Optimistic but realistic

Re: Horseshoes & Hand Grenades AKA the Knicks in close games 

Post#5 » by aq_ua » Fri Apr 9, 2021 12:34 am

cgmw wrote:If/when the Knicks acquire another alpha, I’d be surprised if Randle doesn’t regress. You can see Randle’s ego struggling on nearly every play of every game to assert itself as top dog. You especially see it with his incessant whining to the refs. He’s just not comfortable thinking of himself as the top dog, and it really shows in the final possession. Notice how he’ll force up bad shots after the opposing team’s best player makes a good play. Notice how he withered next to Marcus Morris in big moments but also just calling for regular plays. Notice how he’ll bring the ball up himself as an ego thing when his mind has spun out. You really saw it last season with his spin moves and terrible decision making — his mind just isn’t strong enough to keep his body under control in big moments. He’s trying so hard to be somebody he might not be yet.

Insane Thibs will keep force feeding looks to Randle no matter how tired he gets this season and hopefully it helps Randle grow. His skill set should translate Ok to clutch buckets, especially the mid-range baseline fade, but also not a bad step back and certainly strong AF going to the rim to draw a foul. The only thing keeping him back is his own mind (and Thibs insane minutes distribution).

But my prediction is Randle regresses the minute the Knicks acquire another legit All Star because so much of his game right now is predicated on a very delicate ego that isn’t fully comfortable being the man.

Meanwhile Thibs is an ass for not developing IQ as a cold blooded assassin. That kid has what it takes to hit a bucket in a big moment, but Thibs clearly doesn’t trust him.

It wouldn't be the first time a team had a guy who could carry them for 3 quarters, but a different guy steps up in the 4th and crunch time. It could even be a bench player. I don't know if we need another 20 point scorer to be that other guy - a younger Lou Williams could be enough.
cgmw
RealGM
Posts: 17,757
And1: 4,294
Joined: Jul 23, 2003
Location: Winning now since 1973
Contact:
 

Re: Horseshoes & Hand Grenades AKA the Knicks in close games 

Post#6 » by cgmw » Fri Apr 9, 2021 1:37 am

aq_ua wrote:
cgmw wrote:If/when the Knicks acquire another alpha, I’d be surprised if Randle doesn’t regress. You can see Randle’s ego struggling on nearly every play of every game to assert itself as top dog. You especially see it with his incessant whining to the refs. He’s just not comfortable thinking of himself as the top dog, and it really shows in the final possession. Notice how he’ll force up bad shots after the opposing team’s best player makes a good play. Notice how he withered next to Marcus Morris in big moments but also just calling for regular plays. Notice how he’ll bring the ball up himself as an ego thing when his mind has spun out. You really saw it last season with his spin moves and terrible decision making — his mind just isn’t strong enough to keep his body under control in big moments. He’s trying so hard to be somebody he might not be yet.

Insane Thibs will keep force feeding looks to Randle no matter how tired he gets this season and hopefully it helps Randle grow. His skill set should translate Ok to clutch buckets, especially the mid-range baseline fade, but also not a bad step back and certainly strong AF going to the rim to draw a foul. The only thing keeping him back is his own mind (and Thibs insane minutes distribution).

But my prediction is Randle regresses the minute the Knicks acquire another legit All Star because so much of his game right now is predicated on a very delicate ego that isn’t fully comfortable being the man.

Meanwhile Thibs is an ass for not developing IQ as a cold blooded assassin. That kid has what it takes to hit a bucket in a big moment, but Thibs clearly doesn’t trust him.

It wouldn't be the first time a team had a guy who could carry them for 3 quarters, but a different guy steps up in the 4th and crunch time. It could even be a bench player. I don't know if we need another 20 point scorer to be that other guy - a younger Lou Williams could be enough.

Problem is Randle is out to prove something, and management is 100% on-board to enable him. They will force feed Randle looks because he's insecure and because management NEEDS him to be an All Star for their own job security. I harp on Dolan a lot, but here's another example of how the petty short-sighted culture at MSG is less than ideal. Ideally, management would realize they drafted an assassin and groom IQ for clutch buckets. As it stands, I'm kinda surprised Thibs trusts him to shoot T's.

Randle's ego is too fragile and MSG management is too desperate for a "Star." They'll keep force feeding Randle in late game scenarios (although lord knows Thibs loves him some Alec Burks) until they acquire an even bigger name or more established "star" this offseason.

Remember that time Frank was shooting lights out FTs last year, but Randle walked to the line to physically remove Frank from shooting a T?
"Sell the team. Sell the team. Sell the team."
User avatar
Chanel Bomber
General Manager
Posts: 7,836
And1: 11,283
Joined: Sep 20, 2018
 

Re: Horseshoes & Hand Grenades AKA the Knicks in close games 

Post#7 » by Chanel Bomber » Fri Apr 9, 2021 1:50 am

cgmw wrote:
aq_ua wrote:
cgmw wrote:If/when the Knicks acquire another alpha, I’d be surprised if Randle doesn’t regress. You can see Randle’s ego struggling on nearly every play of every game to assert itself as top dog. You especially see it with his incessant whining to the refs. He’s just not comfortable thinking of himself as the top dog, and it really shows in the final possession. Notice how he’ll force up bad shots after the opposing team’s best player makes a good play. Notice how he withered next to Marcus Morris in big moments but also just calling for regular plays. Notice how he’ll bring the ball up himself as an ego thing when his mind has spun out. You really saw it last season with his spin moves and terrible decision making — his mind just isn’t strong enough to keep his body under control in big moments. He’s trying so hard to be somebody he might not be yet.

Insane Thibs will keep force feeding looks to Randle no matter how tired he gets this season and hopefully it helps Randle grow. His skill set should translate Ok to clutch buckets, especially the mid-range baseline fade, but also not a bad step back and certainly strong AF going to the rim to draw a foul. The only thing keeping him back is his own mind (and Thibs insane minutes distribution).

But my prediction is Randle regresses the minute the Knicks acquire another legit All Star because so much of his game right now is predicated on a very delicate ego that isn’t fully comfortable being the man.

Meanwhile Thibs is an ass for not developing IQ as a cold blooded assassin. That kid has what it takes to hit a bucket in a big moment, but Thibs clearly doesn’t trust him.

It wouldn't be the first time a team had a guy who could carry them for 3 quarters, but a different guy steps up in the 4th and crunch time. It could even be a bench player. I don't know if we need another 20 point scorer to be that other guy - a younger Lou Williams could be enough.

Yeah but the problem seems to be that Randle is out to prove something, and management seems 100% on board to enable him. They will force feed Randle looks because he's insecure and because management NEEDS him to be an All Star for their own job security. I harp on Dolan a lot, but here's another example of how the petty short-sighted culture at MSG is less than ideal. Ideally, management would realize they drafted an assassin and groom IQ for clutch buckets. As it stands, I'm kinda surprised Thibs trusts him to shoot T's.

Randle's ego is too fragile and MSG management is too desperate for a "Star." They'll keep force feeding Randle in late game scenarios (although lord knows Thibs loves him some Alec Burks) until they acquire an even bigger name or more established "star" this offseason.

Remember that time Frank was shooting lights out FTs last year, but Randle walked to the line to physically remove Frank from shooting a T?

That's precisely why the Knicks will never win a championship under Dolan.

No long-term vision or big picture plan. Just scrambling year after year for a piece of mediocrity because the bar had been continually set so low that not being a laughingstock is a championship, or delusions of signing free agents as a shortcut to an elusive championship.

Dolan might not be the worst owner, but he certainly is the dumbest and the most insecure.
Image
Adelheid
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,715
And1: 2,726
Joined: Jul 10, 2014
 

Re: Horseshoes & Hand Grenades AKA the Knicks in close games 

Post#8 » by Adelheid » Fri Apr 9, 2021 3:10 am

Dolan has to answer to stockholders. As an owner, it is just expected of him to prioritize moves that maintain financial status quo even if it is short-sighted in the grand scale of things. Knicks need a fanatic/sports oriented type of owner for it to really change its course.

Return to New York Knicks