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2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3

Moderators: K-DOT, Deeeez Knicks, Capn'O, Thugger HBC, j4remi, Jeff Van Gully, mrpoetryNmotion, mpharris36, NoLayupRule, King of Canada, GONYK

Who do you guys want the most assuming all of these players are within our range

James Bouknight
12
24%
Ayo Dosunmo
3
6%
Tre Mann
7
14%
Davion Mitchell
6
12%
Josh Giddey
12
24%
Jared Butler
2
4%
Ziaire Williams
3
6%
BJ Boston
1
2%
Moses Moody
2
4%
Sharife Cooper
1
2%
 
Total votes: 49

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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#121 » by EMG518 » Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:03 am

Nazrmohamed wrote:
EMG518 wrote:First vote for Sharife Cooper in the poll. Of the guys I have seen that is whom I would want for the Knicks. He is someone we actually have a shot at as well.

He has the best handle in the draft, great vision, good passer, moves well, plays tough for his size. He averaged 20 pts and 8 assists as a freshman.

Is he going to be below avg defensively? Yes but he plays tough and hard. Rebounds well for a smaller player.

Does he need to improve his shooting? Yes but he is 82.5% from the line so I am optimistic he can be above average.

Love everything else.


There's just too much there to fix. Even if it was only the defense where maybe you can hide it but you're witnessing a stud offensive player then maybe. But the percentages, he takes lousy shots. Box score numbers look good and the guy can make some great passes. I just think of guys Thibs would be willing to play. I just dont see it but you never know. Thibs while loving defense tends to like scoring PGs. It could work but he's gotta become a way more efficient scorer (and defender) for me to endorse it.


His basketball IQ, vision/passing, and handle are special. If he can improve his shot which shooting over 82% from the line as a freshman suggests he could, he will be a very good player in the league. I just don't see how you can pass on that outside of the lottery.
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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#122 » by cgf » Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:09 pm

EMG518 wrote:
Nazrmohamed wrote:
EMG518 wrote:First vote for Sharife Cooper in the poll. Of the guys I have seen that is whom I would want for the Knicks. He is someone we actually have a shot at as well.

He has the best handle in the draft, great vision, good passer, moves well, plays tough for his size. He averaged 20 pts and 8 assists as a freshman.

Is he going to be below avg defensively? Yes but he plays tough and hard. Rebounds well for a smaller player.

Does he need to improve his shooting? Yes but he is 82.5% from the line so I am optimistic he can be above average.

Love everything else.


There's just too much there to fix. Even if it was only the defense where maybe you can hide it but you're witnessing a stud offensive player then maybe. But the percentages, he takes lousy shots. Box score numbers look good and the guy can make some great passes. I just think of guys Thibs would be willing to play. I just dont see it but you never know. Thibs while loving defense tends to like scoring PGs. It could work but he's gotta become a way more efficient scorer (and defender) for me to endorse it.


His basketball IQ, vision/passing, and handle are special. If he can improve his shot which shooting over 82% from the line as a freshman suggests he could, he will be a very good player in the league. I just don't see how you can pass on that outside of the lottery.

The big problem is nobody contests free throws. Cooper is going to have to change his mechanics dramaticallly to get his shot off in game action against NBAers...and that's assuming that his defense doesn't make him unplayable at the next level.
dogrufus wrote:Plus the win would put us at .500 and 5 straight wins, making every poster here cream in their pants.

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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#123 » by NewKnicks » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:14 pm

Nazrmohamed wrote:
newyorker4ever wrote:How does M.Moody only have 2 votes? He's the best player on that list and we need his shooting.


In a way you just said it. People didn't vote for him because he doesn't belong on this list. He doesn't belong on this list because there's no way he makes it to even pick 15 let alone pick 18-22 where we have any chance of picking. Everyone else could go anywhere from 18-33 depending on who you ask.


Moody is also only 18, and with his shooting being at the level it's at already, he could end up being a really good player in the NBA. But, we have no shot at him.

This gets me thinking.. since we probably won't keep more than one rookie on the roster next year, might as well package them both to move up in this years draft. Maybe even include Obi as well. I wonder how far we could get with two picks in the 20's and someone like Obi. Could we break the top 10? Doubt it, but maybe that's what they'll try to do.

Thoughts?
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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#124 » by NewKnicks » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:17 pm

Nazrmohamed wrote:
robillionaire wrote:
NewKnicks wrote:
One thing about Juzang is he's a winner, and not afraid to take (and hit) big shot after big shot. He could be a surprise in the league if he lands with the right organization who is great at developing players.


this guy was a teammate of IQ at kentucky his first year and didn't get to really crack the rotation, not unlike quickley his first year. also not unlike quickley, he had a breakout season in year 2 when given a larger opportunity. he should be a no brainer, not sure why he's not even on draft boards. Actually now that I check ESPN has him 50th on their board. Yeah take a 2nd round flyer on him you'd be stupid not to


Oh so that mean Kenny Payne knows him. You know this is happening then. I don't know him much but that video showed some things I like in a shooter. I mean at first I saw the assisted shooting off the hockey assists and wondered if there was more but hes got a good closeout game and some decent pull up. I can see it.

Does he defend though?


He does defend. You should try to watch some tourney highlights of him. He hit big shots all throughout the tournament to keep UCLA advancing. Watch that UCLA/Gonzaga game. The one where Suggs hits the buzzer beater. UCLA with Juzang leading them went toe to toe with the Zags. One of the better games in college Bball you'll ever see. Went to OT. If you're not much of a college bball fan, at least check that game out.
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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#125 » by NewKnicks » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:20 pm

EMG518 wrote:
Nazrmohamed wrote:
EMG518 wrote:First vote for Sharife Cooper in the poll. Of the guys I have seen that is whom I would want for the Knicks. He is someone we actually have a shot at as well.

He has the best handle in the draft, great vision, good passer, moves well, plays tough for his size. He averaged 20 pts and 8 assists as a freshman.

Is he going to be below avg defensively? Yes but he plays tough and hard. Rebounds well for a smaller player.

Does he need to improve his shooting? Yes but he is 82.5% from the line so I am optimistic he can be above average.

Love everything else.


There's just too much there to fix. Even if it was only the defense where maybe you can hide it but you're witnessing a stud offensive player then maybe. But the percentages, he takes lousy shots. Box score numbers look good and the guy can make some great passes. I just think of guys Thibs would be willing to play. I just dont see it but you never know. Thibs while loving defense tends to like scoring PGs. It could work but he's gotta become a way more efficient scorer (and defender) for me to endorse it.


His basketball IQ, vision/passing, and handle are special. If he can improve his shot which shooting over 82% from the line as a freshman suggests he could, he will be a very good player in the league. I just don't see how you can pass on that outside of the lottery.


I agree on Sharife. His playmaking ability and passing are special. I don't think his size is going to stop him from excelling at the next level. Too much talent to not breakthrough. I'm guessing he's a draft riser as teams work him out and see those talents in person. I prefer Ayo or Sharife, but I think both could answer our big question mark at PG for years to come.
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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#126 » by Nazrmohamed » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:29 pm

cgf wrote:
EMG518 wrote:
Nazrmohamed wrote:
There's just too much there to fix. Even if it was only the defense where maybe you can hide it but you're witnessing a stud offensive player then maybe. But the percentages, he takes lousy shots. Box score numbers look good and the guy can make some great passes. I just think of guys Thibs would be willing to play. I just dont see it but you never know. Thibs while loving defense tends to like scoring PGs. It could work but he's gotta become a way more efficient scorer (and defender) for me to endorse it.


His basketball IQ, vision/passing, and handle are special. If he can improve his shot which shooting over 82% from the line as a freshman suggests he could, he will be a very good player in the league. I just don't see how you can pass on that outside of the lottery.

The big problem is nobody contests free throws. Cooper is going to have to change his mechanics dramaticallly to get his shot off in game action against NBAers...and that's assuming that his defense doesn't make him unplayable at the next level.


Yeah I just can't get past it and if I'm wrong then there are acceptable ways for me to have been wrong. This would be one of them but I just can't endorse a guy shooting less than 40% from the field and less than 30% from 3, especially at 6'1 180lbs. And then to hear he can't defend anybody? It's just too much to overcome to get playing time on a team that is out of the "bet on potential" stage of thier team development.

For example, and I didn't pick him because despite what I'm saying I do want SOME potential, but a guy like Duarte. Any other yr, he'll no at his age. But coming off this season would I be upset? Again not my first choice but you could talk me into it. Maybe the age is a plus. Bullock and Burks may have priced themselves out. To get a guy you know will defend and shoots at a high level. WI never be a star player but again, plug and play.
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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#127 » by Nazrmohamed » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:33 pm

NewKnicks wrote:
Nazrmohamed wrote:
newyorker4ever wrote:How does M.Moody only have 2 votes? He's the best player on that list and we need his shooting.


In a way you just said it. People didn't vote for him because he doesn't belong on this list. He doesn't belong on this list because there's no way he makes it to even pick 15 let alone pick 18-22 where we have any chance of picking. Everyone else could go anywhere from 18-33 depending on who you ask.


Moody is also only 18, and with his shooting being at the level it's at already, he could end up being a really good player in the NBA. But, we have no shot at him.

This gets me thinking.. since we probably won't keep more than one rookie on the roster next year, might as well package them both to move up in this years draft. Maybe even include Obi as well. I wonder how far we could get with two picks in the 20's and someone like Obi. Could we break the top 10? Doubt it, but maybe that's what they'll try to do.

Thoughts?


I'm not doing all 3. Any 2 then sure and you may say we'll then the answer would be no from the other team. We'll ok, I'm willing to walk away. Top 7picks then perhaps. But 8-10 is still good but not transformative. At least from what I've seen.
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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#128 » by Knicksfan1992 » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:44 pm

Giddey is such a good fit for our core going forward. Pure passer and connector for our primary scoring options and has the size to defend at the NBA level. I buy the shot touch even if it's a little slow to get off. I like him way more than Scottie Barnes for example.
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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#129 » by stuporman » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:59 pm

I want the Knicks to use all the picks if they don't consolidate by trading up, I want as many cracks as possible in this deep draft to get the impact player. If one of two of them sit in the bench for a season or spend it in G-league, fine, that's the way it goes developing young players.

Except I prefer multiple chances at getting a player who produces right away just like how this past draft gave the Knicks two shots at it and one hit right away even though the higher of the two picks didn't so will take some time to develop.

If the Knicks move up so only have one shot at it and that players is a whiff....like has happened before to the Knicks that hurts the franchise big time. How much further along the curve or higher in the standings are the Knicks if 3 of the last 5 lottery picks aren't wasting away?

This FO needs to show us they aren't like past regimes and blow the draft more than hit, we can't rely on demanding GMs for trades or fickle FAs to get talent. The draft is the most affordable way to getting that talent and this draft will have contributors from day one all through the first round and into the second.

Are people really that giddy for Giddey? No concerns about his shot? You comfortable with his defensive shortcomings or whether Thibs would really like him because of that? Or is this some LaMelo glow getting on him because of the similarities? Hmmmm interesting prospect but I haven't watched enough of him.
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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#130 » by stuporman » Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:51 pm

Since the Knicks have multiple picks this poll should have allowed for multiple selections to account for it.
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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#131 » by NewKnicks » Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:53 pm

Nazrmohamed wrote:
NewKnicks wrote:
Nazrmohamed wrote:
In a way you just said it. People didn't vote for him because he doesn't belong on this list. He doesn't belong on this list because there's no way he makes it to even pick 15 let alone pick 18-22 where we have any chance of picking. Everyone else could go anywhere from 18-33 depending on who you ask.


Moody is also only 18, and with his shooting being at the level it's at already, he could end up being a really good player in the NBA. But, we have no shot at him.

This gets me thinking.. since we probably won't keep more than one rookie on the roster next year, might as well package them both to move up in this years draft. Maybe even include Obi as well. I wonder how far we could get with two picks in the 20's and someone like Obi. Could we break the top 10? Doubt it, but maybe that's what they'll try to do.

Thoughts?


I'm not doing all 3. Any 2 then sure and you may say we'll then the answer would be no from the other team. We'll ok, I'm willing to walk away. Top 7picks then perhaps. But 8-10 is still good but not transformative. At least from what I've seen.


Problem is two picks in the 20's won't get us into the top 10. It might get us a top 15 pick, but why not include Obi or Mitch and try to see how far we can get? This will be the last draft that this option is available. And since it's a stacked draft, might as well go for it to add a player that could really impact the franchise for years to come. 15 and below is still going to most likely get us a role player, so include what is needed to get up to 7-10. If all it takes is Obi, I say do it. There is star potential outside of the top 5, but by the time the draft comes around and GM's have had a much closer look at the prospects, most of the talent will be gone by 12-13.
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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#132 » by stuporman » Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:07 pm

Every year people act like only potential star talent can be found in the draft is 'top 5' or 'top 10' or whatever personal opinion they have but every year there is someone taken outside of the top 10 and even outside the lottery that is much better and closer to star talent than at least a couple of the guys taken in the top 10.

Guaranteed!

Then those same people come back the next year saying the same thing even though they are proven wrong every year. Oh... take your probabilities and shove them up your azz, I know what's 'more likely' but there's much more to identifying and developing talent than the probability based on draft pick.
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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#133 » by jvsimonetti0514 » Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:26 pm

Knicksfan1992 wrote:Giddey is such a good fit for our core going forward. Pure passer and connector for our primary scoring options and has the size to defend at the NBA level. I buy the shot touch even if it's a little slow to get off. I like him way more than Scottie Barnes for example.






He had a triple double the other night. I wouldn't be shocked if he's gonna be a late lottery guy now.
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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#134 » by stuporman » Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:45 pm

All the late risers push down some of the previously high rated players, that's a mixed bag of opportunity though because some of those that drop aren't a better pick later just because they once were rated higher, they dropped for good reason and should be avoided even later.

Of course there will be a guy or two that does drop which are well worth the later slot and some smart team will pounce on them. Denver always seems good at that, Knicks have had decent luck a little later, Maybe the Knicks FO has found their winning formula and will keep the two 20s instead of use them to trade up.
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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#135 » by Knicksfan1992 » Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:11 pm

jvsimonetti0514 wrote:
Knicksfan1992 wrote:Giddey is such a good fit for our core going forward. Pure passer and connector for our primary scoring options and has the size to defend at the NBA level. I buy the shot touch even if it's a little slow to get off. I like him way more than Scottie Barnes for example.






He had a triple double the other night. I wouldn't be shocked if he's gonna be a late lottery guy now.


If Knicks want to consolidate picks (I don't think there's any chance they take 2 1st rounders into the season FWIW) they should be able to get to that late lottery range to get whomever they would want.

The question is will the Knicks even bother drafting a rookie this year or will they trade 1 or both of those picks for established help or possibly try to move their pick for future picks like they did last year?

Either way there's a few guys I like who could go late lottery or mid-late 1st round depending on how the draft shakes out. I actually think I like the guys projected in that range more than I like the guys projected 6-10 to be quite honest.
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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#136 » by jvsimonetti0514 » Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:05 pm

Knicksfan1992 wrote:
jvsimonetti0514 wrote:
Knicksfan1992 wrote:Giddey is such a good fit for our core going forward. Pure passer and connector for our primary scoring options and has the size to defend at the NBA level. I buy the shot touch even if it's a little slow to get off. I like him way more than Scottie Barnes for example.






He had a triple double the other night. I wouldn't be shocked if he's gonna be a late lottery guy now.


If Knicks want to consolidate picks (I don't think there's any chance they take 2 1st rounders into the season FWIW) they should be able to get to that late lottery range to get whomever they would want.

The question is will the Knicks even bother drafting a rookie this year or will they trade 1 or both of those picks for established help or possibly try to move their pick for future picks like they did last year?

Either way there's a few guys I like who could go late lottery or mid-late 1st round depending on how the draft shakes out. I actually think I like the guys projected in that range more than I like the guys projected 6-10 to be quite honest.


There's definitely a huge talent drop off after the top 5. I'm sure that's why Davion Mitchell and Josh Giddey have skyrocketed up the mock drafts. Jalen Johnson has quit on multiple teams, Scotty Barnes has 0 offensive game, Keon Johnson is basically just a freak athlete, and for a shooter, Moses Moody isn't exactly a great one. I still hope that Bouknight falls but I just have a hard time believing it when I compare him to those other prospects in the top 10. I mean even in the late lottery, what does Franz Wagner do that's better than Bouknight?

I think we would trade the picks for a star that wants out but the problem is there isn't any stars available. I mean maybe Beal will finally ask out but is he even better than Randle is at this point? I'm not so sure that he is. I'm not against trying to trade up either but we did just see how valuable it is to have multiple first round picks. We'd certainly not be as good as we are now if we didn't keep the pick that we used to draft IQ. Maybe our pick plus the Detroit 2nd is enough to move up a couple spots to get Giddey? It's really tough to get a feel for these big boards and mocks until the draft order is actually set in stone.
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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#137 » by EMG518 » Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:26 pm

cgf wrote:
EMG518 wrote:
Nazrmohamed wrote:
There's just too much there to fix. Even if it was only the defense where maybe you can hide it but you're witnessing a stud offensive player then maybe. But the percentages, he takes lousy shots. Box score numbers look good and the guy can make some great passes. I just think of guys Thibs would be willing to play. I just dont see it but you never know. Thibs while loving defense tends to like scoring PGs. It could work but he's gotta become a way more efficient scorer (and defender) for me to endorse it.


His basketball IQ, vision/passing, and handle are special. If he can improve his shot which shooting over 82% from the line as a freshman suggests he could, he will be a very good player in the league. I just don't see how you can pass on that outside of the lottery.

The big problem is nobody contests free throws. Cooper is going to have to change his mechanics dramaticallly to get his shot off in game action against NBAers...and that's assuming that his defense doesn't make him unplayable at the next level.


His issue wasn't getting open or good looks, it was that he was missing those attempts open. Its a mechanics and rep issue which can be fixed and with his mind set and already shooting over 82% as a freshman from the line I am not worried.
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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#138 » by cgf » Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:12 pm

EMG518 wrote:
cgf wrote:
EMG518 wrote:
His basketball IQ, vision/passing, and handle are special. If he can improve his shot which shooting over 82% from the line as a freshman suggests he could, he will be a very good player in the league. I just don't see how you can pass on that outside of the lottery.

The big problem is nobody contests free throws. Cooper is going to have to change his mechanics dramaticallly to get his shot off in game action against NBAers...and that's assuming that his defense doesn't make him unplayable at the next level.


His issue wasn't getting open or good looks, it was that he was missing those attempts open. Its a mechanics and rep issue which can be fixed and with his mind set and already shooting over 82% as a freshman from the line I am not worried.

His mechanics need to be changed dramatically for his release to no longer be so low that even I could swat it...that's what I was getting at. He's not just a bad shooter, he's going to have a hard time getting his shot off without dramatic changes to his stroke unless he's getting open looks the same way Elfrid Payton gets open looks from the perimeter...
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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#139 » by Nazrmohamed » Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:27 am

NewKnicks wrote:
Nazrmohamed wrote:
NewKnicks wrote:
Moody is also only 18, and with his shooting being at the level it's at already, he could end up being a really good player in the NBA. But, we have no shot at him.

This gets me thinking.. since we probably won't keep more than one rookie on the roster next year, might as well package them both to move up in this years draft. Maybe even include Obi as well. I wonder how far we could get with two picks in the 20's and someone like Obi. Could we break the top 10? Doubt it, but maybe that's what they'll try to do.

Thoughts?


I'm not doing all 3. Any 2 then sure and you may say we'll then the answer would be no from the other team. We'll ok, I'm willing to walk away. Top 7picks then perhaps. But 8-10 is still good but not transformative. At least from what I've seen.


Problem is two picks in the 20's won't get us into the top 10. It might get us a top 15 pick, but why not include Obi or Mitch and try to see how far we can get? This will be the last draft that this option is available. And since it's a stacked draft, might as well go for it to add a player that could really impact the franchise for years to come. 15 and below is still going to most likely get us a role player, so include what is needed to get up to 7-10. If all it takes is Obi, I say do it. There is star potential outside of the top 5, but by the time the draft comes around and GM's have had a much closer look at the prospects, most of the talent will be gone by 12-13.


I've admittedly not been on my typical draft game, probably because of how well the Knicks have been doing but I don't see this draft as stacked as some view it. I think I said it elsewhere, lots of short players and bad shooting percentages. I hear alot of people trying to justify those percentages but everybody out here shooting 30% from 3. I do think the top 5 are legit and of course there'll be guys good elsewhere but you might just get lucky with pick 20 as quickly as you draft a bust in the lottery. Im not really trying to give up assets to move up.

If anything I'm trying to trade those picks 20&22 for top 25 players under 25. Remember that list that forgot about RJ? To me that's the holy grail of talents. But if not just stay put and go after upperclassmen who are likely to contribute in thier 1st 2 yrs.
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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#140 » by EMG518 » Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:21 am

cgf wrote:
EMG518 wrote:
cgf wrote:The big problem is nobody contests free throws. Cooper is going to have to change his mechanics dramaticallly to get his shot off in game action against NBAers...and that's assuming that his defense doesn't make him unplayable at the next level.


His issue wasn't getting open or good looks, it was that he was missing those attempts open. Its a mechanics and rep issue which can be fixed and with his mind set and already shooting over 82% as a freshman from the line I am not worried.

His mechanics need to be changed dramatically for his release to no longer be so low that even I could swat it...that's what I was getting at. He's not just a bad shooter, he's going to have a hard time getting his shot off without dramatic changes to his stroke unless he's getting open looks the same way Elfrid Payton gets open looks from the perimeter...


I don't see it as an issue. I think his release is fine and he hasn't shown any issue getting open looks to make me think it will some how become an issue later on.

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