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2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3

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Who do you guys want the most assuming all of these players are within our range

James Bouknight
24
24%
Ayo Dosunmo
4
4%
Tre Mann
12
12%
Davion Mitchell
15
15%
Josh Giddey
21
21%
Jared Butler
6
6%
Ziaire Williams
5
5%
BJ Boston
2
2%
Moses Moody
4
4%
Sharife Cooper
8
8%
 
Total votes: 101

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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#761 » by cgf » Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:27 pm

3toheadmelo wrote:Ayo Dosunmo low key slept on. If his 3 point shot is legit then he might be the 6’5 PG version of Sexton

That's a serious if though.

Plus you seem quite a bit higher on his handle or wiggle than I am...cause even if the shot is legit, I don't see a star so much as someone you hope polishs his game into a Brogdon type.
dogrufus wrote:Plus the win would put us at .500 and 5 straight wins, making every poster here cream in their pants.

We're Knicks fans. We never get to cream.


cgmw wrote:Basically, in conclusion: I'd like Dolan to get off my lawn.
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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#762 » by Knicksfan1992 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:35 pm

3toheadmelo wrote:Ayo Dosunmo low key slept on. If his 3 point shot is legit then he might be the 6’5 PG version of Sexton


I really love his ability to attack and finish under control at his size. Also combine that with his shot making and defensive chops and I think he should really be a top 15 pick but might slip because of the sloppy handle and lack of advanced passing ability. Also Illinois getting bounced early in the tournament probably didn't help his stock.

But he's one of those prospects like Sexton who has the hard parts of the game down and just needs to clean up the less physically-reliant stuff up. I'm always a sucker for those kind of guys even if they don't always pan out.
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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#763 » by louisorr » Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:48 pm

cgf wrote:
louisorr wrote:
Knicksfan1992 wrote:
Fair criticisms IMO. I think draft twitter likes him more than I do too. He's really little and I think if you're not a near prime IT level scorer/shooter or like Trae level crafty it's really hard to succeed at that size because NBA coaches are ruthless and will attack you every chance they get on the other end in big games.

The thing I like about him though is even without all that he still seems to get anywhere he wants on the floor and makes good decisions almost all the time. That kinda stuff translates to me. And the free throw percentage is good which is a good sign, generally, that his shot is workable.

I'd rather take a chance on a few guys over him if they are there like Jalen Johnson, Butler, Mann, Giddey, Bouknight, Dosunmo (spelling?) but I dont think he'd be an awful pick. Just not a great one either imo.

He does offer a skillset that is pretty rare with his speed and handle. and his FT shooting is elite with great ability to get to the line. I think he took over 20 attempts against a ranked team this year in one game.
I you just break it down to math:
let's say there's two guys. one shoots 30 percent from 3 and the other 40 percent on 5 attempts per game. well thats 10 more makes per 100 and 5 attempts x 80 games is 400, so thats 40 more makes from 3 per season on the same attempts.
nice right? thats 120 points, now divide that by 80 games and thats 1.5 points per game......so how many free throws does it take for a guy shooting 90 percent to make that up? Cooper gets to the line like crazy is all I'm saying.

The problem is that FT's can't be blocked. All other shots can & with his release + size, NBA defenders are going to swat his shot a lot when he tries to pull up...at least without reworking his shot...and at his size, finishing in the paint without a pull-up game that can freeze defenders, is going to require some kyrie-level finishing.

Which is important because if Cooper can't score at the next level, then no one is going to send him to the line...plus, it'll neutralize his vision / creativity if he's not able to put defenses under pressure with his penetration. Which would mean that there wouldn't be any reason for an NBA team to put the ball in his hands...and his off-ball contributions sure as s*** aren't going to get him on the court.

I really liked watching Auburn once he started playing because I love crafty passers with next level vision and he was awesome at the college level...but he just has such a high bar to clear to be successful in the NBA because he needs his pull-up game or finishing to become elite enough to require extra attention just to make it.


And that last part is the killer. Obi may not become the offensive star that the FO was hoping for, but he showed in the playoffs how he can still become a valuable energy big off the bench even if he doesn't. Similar thing with Quickley, his defense and off-ball shooting will let him carve out a niche in the NBA even if he never becomes an on-ball star, or even just a high-end 6th-man. And again the same is true with RJ, even if he never develops a pull-up game or improve his finishing at the rim; there's a useful NBA player there.

Whereas with Cooper it's star / dynamic-6th-man or he's not going to get a 2nd contract. I'm going to be rooting for him wherever he lands because if he makes it, he'll be fun to watch...but I really hope someone else takes that gamble and we go with someone like Butler or Mann instead.

well, Butler and Mann happen to be my favorite targets so I'm not going to argue with your take, and all good points regardless. The cards are definitely stacked against a kid that small but one of my favorite sayings in all of sports as cliche as it might be is " it's not about the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog" and that goes for all these dudes no matter how big or small or what their perceived talent is. look at milicic (attitude) or Fultz (nerves) or Simmons (mental block) plenty of top talents that are missing the "fight". lot's of things that are unpredictable til they play out.
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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#764 » by mpharris36 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:54 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:Excluding Cade, who has the best handle over 6'6"?


Scottie Barnes, Franz Wagner, and Josh Giddey are probably the best playmaking guys that are bigger (all have good handle and vision). Giddey probably has to stay at guard because he is not very strong.

But Scottie and Barnes are multi positional. Barnes could be a big time player if he got even a respectable jump shot.
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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#765 » by cgf » Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:59 pm

louisorr wrote:
cgf wrote:
louisorr wrote:He does offer a skillset that is pretty rare with his speed and handle. and his FT shooting is elite with great ability to get to the line. I think he took over 20 attempts against a ranked team this year in one game.
I you just break it down to math:
let's say there's two guys. one shoots 30 percent from 3 and the other 40 percent on 5 attempts per game. well thats 10 more makes per 100 and 5 attempts x 80 games is 400, so thats 40 more makes from 3 per season on the same attempts.
nice right? thats 120 points, now divide that by 80 games and thats 1.5 points per game......so how many free throws does it take for a guy shooting 90 percent to make that up? Cooper gets to the line like crazy is all I'm saying.

The problem is that FT's can't be blocked. All other shots can & with his release + size, NBA defenders are going to swat his shot a lot when he tries to pull up...at least without reworking his shot...and at his size, finishing in the paint without a pull-up game that can freeze defenders, is going to require some kyrie-level finishing.

Which is important because if Cooper can't score at the next level, then no one is going to send him to the line...plus, it'll neutralize his vision / creativity if he's not able to put defenses under pressure with his penetration. Which would mean that there wouldn't be any reason for an NBA team to put the ball in his hands...and his off-ball contributions sure as s*** aren't going to get him on the court.

I really liked watching Auburn once he started playing because I love crafty passers with next level vision and he was awesome at the college level...but he just has such a high bar to clear to be successful in the NBA because he needs his pull-up game or finishing to become elite enough to require extra attention just to make it.


And that last part is the killer. Obi may not become the offensive star that the FO was hoping for, but he showed in the playoffs how he can still become a valuable energy big off the bench even if he doesn't. Similar thing with Quickley, his defense and off-ball shooting will let him carve out a niche in the NBA even if he never becomes an on-ball star, or even just a high-end 6th-man. And again the same is true with RJ, even if he never develops a pull-up game or improve his finishing at the rim; there's a useful NBA player there.

Whereas with Cooper it's star / dynamic-6th-man or he's not going to get a 2nd contract. I'm going to be rooting for him wherever he lands because if he makes it, he'll be fun to watch...but I really hope someone else takes that gamble and we go with someone like Butler or Mann instead.

well, Butler and Mann happen to be my favorite targets so I'm not going to argue with your take, and all good points regardless. The cards are definitely stacked against a kid that small but one of my favorite sayings in all of sports as cliche as it might be is " it's not about the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog" and that goes for all these dudes no matter how big or small or what their perceived talent is. look at milicic (attitude) or Fultz (nerves) or Simmons (mental block) plenty of top talents that are missing the "fight". lot's of things that are unpredictable til they play out.

Like I said, I'll be rooting for him...I just don't think he's the right gamble for us.

My preference is for someone with a safer floor -- or at least fewer hurdles to success -- at the guard spot and would gamble more on a wing...whether that's moving up a little from 19 to secure one of Ziaire / Bouknight / Moody / Giddey, or moving up from that Pistons SRP to get BJ Boston on a rookie-scale contract.
dogrufus wrote:Plus the win would put us at .500 and 5 straight wins, making every poster here cream in their pants.

We're Knicks fans. We never get to cream.


cgmw wrote:Basically, in conclusion: I'd like Dolan to get off my lawn.
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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#766 » by Richard4444 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:05 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:Excluding Cade, who has the best handle over 6'6"?


I know who is best Randle over 6"6. :D
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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#767 » by cgf » Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:06 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:Excluding Cade, who has the best handle over 6'6"?


Scottie Barnes, Franz Wagner, and Josh Giddey are probably the best playmaking guys that are bigger (all have good handle and vision). Giddey probably has to stay at guard because he is not very strong.

But Scottie and Barnes are multi positional. Barnes could be a big time player if he got even a respectable jump shot.

Ahem...



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dogrufus wrote:Plus the win would put us at .500 and 5 straight wins, making every poster here cream in their pants.

We're Knicks fans. We never get to cream.


cgmw wrote:Basically, in conclusion: I'd like Dolan to get off my lawn.
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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#768 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:11 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:Excluding Cade, who has the best handle over 6'6"?


Scottie Barnes, Franz Wagner, and Josh Giddey are probably the best playmaking guys that are bigger (all have good handle and vision). Giddey probably has to stay at guard because he is not very strong.

But Scottie and Barnes are multi positional. Barnes could be a big time player if he got even a respectable jump shot.


I was thinking more along the lines of shot creation handle for themselves, who has the cleanest handle/wiggle/separation to get themselves open in the halfcourt, even if they don't make the shot. Like how Jaylen Brown was at Cal, he had a nice handle & moves for his size, which is why he jumped in the draft. This is what made me like McDaniels last year, size & handle, you can add the other stuff later if they're decent from the line.


I like Barnes, but he's going to take a lot of work, and if he can't shoot you're left with a ball handling PF. We need another scoring ball handler, ideally with more size that can play the 3. Leave no place on the wing for Trae to hide.
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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#769 » by cgf » Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:26 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:Excluding Cade, who has the best handle over 6'6"?


Scottie Barnes, Franz Wagner, and Josh Giddey are probably the best playmaking guys that are bigger (all have good handle and vision). Giddey probably has to stay at guard because he is not very strong.

But Scottie and Barnes are multi positional. Barnes could be a big time player if he got even a respectable jump shot.


I was thinking more along the lines of shot creation handle for themselves, who has the cleanest handle/wiggle/separation to get themselves open in the halfcourt, even if they don't make the shot. Like how Jaylen Brown was at Cal, he had a nice handle & moves for his size, which is why he jumped in the draft. This is what made me like McDaniels last year, size & handle, you can add the other stuff later if they're decent from the line.


I like Barnes, but he's going to take a lot of work, and if he can't shoot you're left with a ball handling PF. We need another scoring ball handler, ideally with more size that can play the 3. Leave no place on the wing for Trae to hide.

If you like kids like McDaniels or Patrick Williams, then check out Ziaire.

Kid had a season from hell and is still a stick figure...but the tools are great, he's smart/has a nice feel for the game, plays hard & already defends well, and he kept fighting through everything that went wrong for him. From a pre-season bike crash to being relegated to being a 3&D guy on a veteran Stanford team (that spent all season on the road because of covid) until injuries opened the door for a bigger role, which he started to claim (see his triple-double game), only for him to get banged up again before finishing the season away from the team due to a death in the family.
dogrufus wrote:Plus the win would put us at .500 and 5 straight wins, making every poster here cream in their pants.

We're Knicks fans. We never get to cream.


cgmw wrote:Basically, in conclusion: I'd like Dolan to get off my lawn.
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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#770 » by HEZI » Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:28 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:Excluding Cade, who has the best handle over 6'6"?


Scottie Barnes, Franz Wagner, and Josh Giddey are probably the best playmaking guys that are bigger (all have good handle and vision). Giddey probably has to stay at guard because he is not very strong.

But Scottie and Barnes are multi positional. Barnes could be a big time player if he got even a respectable jump shot.


I was thinking more along the lines of shot creation handle for themselves, who has the cleanest handle/wiggle/separation to get themselves open in the halfcourt, even if they don't make the shot. Like how Jaylen Brown was at Cal, he had a nice handle & moves for his size, which is why he jumped in the draft. This is what made me like McDaniels last year, size & handle, you can add the other stuff later if they're decent from the line.


I like Barnes, but he's going to take a lot of work, and if he can't shoot you're left with a ball handling PF. We need another scoring ball handler, ideally with more size that can play the 3. Leave no place on the wing for Trae to hide.


BJ Boston

He's got some solid ball handling ability and I don't think he's going to have much trouble creating space and separation but he's got ways to go in terms of getting buckets efficiently.
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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#771 » by mpharris36 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:42 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:Excluding Cade, who has the best handle over 6'6"?


Scottie Barnes, Franz Wagner, and Josh Giddey are probably the best playmaking guys that are bigger (all have good handle and vision). Giddey probably has to stay at guard because he is not very strong.

But Scottie and Barnes are multi positional. Barnes could be a big time player if he got even a respectable jump shot.


I was thinking more along the lines of shot creation handle for themselves, who has the cleanest handle/wiggle/separation to get themselves open in the halfcourt, even if they don't make the shot. Like how Jaylen Brown was at Cal, he had a nice handle & moves for his size, which is why he jumped in the draft. This is what made me like McDaniels last year, size & handle, you can add the other stuff later if they're decent from the line.


I like Barnes, but he's going to take a lot of work, and if he can't shoot you're left with a ball handling PF. We need another scoring ball handler, ideally with more size that can play the 3. Leave no place on the wing for Trae to hide.


McDaniels screams 3/D which is very valuable but I don't see much shot creation in his future. I interpreted dribble as guys that can spend time as a lead ball handler in an offense. That is why I said those 3.

If your thinking more bucket getters. Ziare and BJ as mentioned above have the talent to shot create. They are just really really inefficient at this stage. Going to take them some time to develope. Kuminga is out of our range but also has pretty good handle and shot creation for his size.
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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#772 » by moocow007 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:44 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:Excluding Cade, who has the best handle over 6'6"?


Scottie Barnes, Franz Wagner, and Josh Giddey are probably the best playmaking guys that are bigger (all have good handle and vision). Giddey probably has to stay at guard because he is not very strong.

But Scottie and Barnes are multi positional. Barnes could be a big time player if he got even a respectable jump shot.


I was thinking more along the lines of shot creation handle for themselves, who has the cleanest handle/wiggle/separation to get themselves open in the halfcourt, even if they don't make the shot. Like how Jaylen Brown was at Cal, he had a nice handle & moves for his size, which is why he jumped in the draft. This is what made me like McDaniels last year, size & handle, you can add the other stuff later if they're decent from the line.


I like Barnes, but he's going to take a lot of work, and if he can't shoot you're left with a ball handling PF. We need another scoring ball handler, ideally with more size that can play the 3. Leave no place on the wing for Trae to hide.


Shot creation (as in offensive versatility, ability to get shot off and seeing the floor) aside from Cunningham? Jalen Green. Green has got pretty much EVERYTHING you can possibly want in a player that you hope can become an absolute elite offensive (and defensive) stud in the NBA. EVERYTHING. His ability to see the floor, react with lightning quick reflexes, long T Mac like strides and explosiveness, fearlessness, ability to hang and change hands and use his body to shield defenders, shooting potential, confidence, star aura, shake and bake opposing defenders, etc., etc....it's elite stuff. He just needs to get physically stronger, be coached hard and he'll be pretty much impossible to stop in the NBA. Him playing against bigger and more physical players in the G-League this past season I think will give him a leg up come NBA time and should allow him to shoot right out of the gate.
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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#773 » by mpharris36 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:50 pm

moocow007 wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
Scottie Barnes, Franz Wagner, and Josh Giddey are probably the best playmaking guys that are bigger (all have good handle and vision). Giddey probably has to stay at guard because he is not very strong.

But Scottie and Barnes are multi positional. Barnes could be a big time player if he got even a respectable jump shot.


I was thinking more along the lines of shot creation handle for themselves, who has the cleanest handle/wiggle/separation to get themselves open in the halfcourt, even if they don't make the shot. Like how Jaylen Brown was at Cal, he had a nice handle & moves for his size, which is why he jumped in the draft. This is what made me like McDaniels last year, size & handle, you can add the other stuff later if they're decent from the line.


I like Barnes, but he's going to take a lot of work, and if he can't shoot you're left with a ball handling PF. We need another scoring ball handler, ideally with more size that can play the 3. Leave no place on the wing for Trae to hide.


Shot creation (as in offensive versatility, ability to get shot off and seeing the floor) aside from Cunningham? Jalen Green. Green has got pretty much EVERYTHING you can possibly want in a player that you hope can become an absolute elite offensive (and defensive) stud in the NBA. EVERYTHING. His ability to see the floor, react with lightning quick reflexes, long T Mac like strides and explosiveness, fearlessness, ability to hang and change hands and use his body to shield defenders, shooting potential, confidence, star aura, shake and bake opposing defenders, etc., etc....it's elite stuff. He just needs to get physically stronger, be coached hard and he'll be pretty much impossible to stop in the NBA. Him playing against bigger and more physical players in the G-League this past season I think will give him a leg up come NBA time and should allow him to shoot right out of the gate.


He was asking for a player over 6'6
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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#774 » by Celo » Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:01 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:Excluding Cade, who has the best handle over 6'6"?


That's cheating because he's "only" 6'5'' but it's probably Tre Mann and it's not really close. I haven't taken a deeper dive on all those 2nd round guys tho, so I might've missed someone. But where I'm at right now, I'm pretty confident in calling Tre a Top 3/5 Ballhandler in this class.
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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#775 » by 3toheadmelo » Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:22 pm

cgf wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:Ayo Dosunmo low key slept on. If his 3 point shot is legit then he might be the 6’5 PG version of Sexton

That's a serious if though.

Plus you seem quite a bit higher on his handle or wiggle than I am...cause even if the shot is legit, I don't see a star so much as someone you hope polishs his game into a Brogdon type.

I think his handle is pretty good. He has this nasty crossover then pull up jumper that he does every game. And he gets to go anywhere he wants on the court. On top of that he is a great passer and defends well. A while back I said he should be considered a lottery pick and i still feel that way imo.
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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#776 » by camillepd » Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:28 pm

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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#777 » by cgf » Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:33 pm

3toheadmelo wrote:
cgf wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:Ayo Dosunmo low key slept on. If his 3 point shot is legit then he might be the 6’5 PG version of Sexton

That's a serious if though.

Plus you seem quite a bit higher on his handle or wiggle than I am...cause even if the shot is legit, I don't see a star so much as someone you hope polishs his game into a Brogdon type.

I think his handle is pretty good. He has this nasty crossover then pull up jumper that he does every game. And he gets to go anywhere he wants on the court. On top of that he is a great passer and defends well. A while back I said he should be considered a lottery pick and i still feel that way imo.


Fair enough. Would be cool to see another U of I kid make it in a big way...but I just don't see that level in him unless he makes the kind of leaps in his further development that it's hard to expect of anyone.
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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#778 » by 3toheadmelo » Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:47 pm

Knicksfan1992 wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:Ayo Dosunmo low key slept on. If his 3 point shot is legit then he might be the 6’5 PG version of Sexton


I really love his ability to attack and finish under control at his size. Also combine that with his shot making and defensive chops and I think he should really be a top 15 pick but might slip because of the sloppy handle and lack of advanced passing ability. Also Illinois getting bounced early in the tournament probably didn't help his stock.

But he's one of those prospects like Sexton who has the hard parts of the game down and just needs to clean up the less physically-reliant stuff up. I'm always a sucker for those kind of guys even if they don't always pan out.

I think he is a better passer than he is credited for. At least in the games I saw he showed off some really great court vision and was throwing dimes everywhere. I think he fits the mold of a Thibs point guard. I would definitely take a shot on him if Bouknight is gone, or perhaps get both since we have two picks.
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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#779 » by stuporman » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:31 am

Cooper is interesting and I'm less concerned about his size, he plays strong and bigger than he is, even on the defensive side. What my concern with him is when I watched him against Butler they played him like NBA teams will, they played off him, cut off passing and driving panes daring him to shoot and he struggled to get anything done.

What's also weird about him is that though he doesn't shoot well he isn't shy about taking shots from anywhere including from 3, he just doesn't make them. I don't know whether that bodes well for his prospects of eventually making them or him continuing to take them and continuing to miss them wasting possessions with bricks.
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Re: 2020-2021 College/Draft Thread Part 3 

Post#780 » by stuporman » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:40 am

3toheadmelo wrote:
Knicksfan1992 wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:Ayo Dosunmo low key slept on. If his 3 point shot is legit then he might be the 6’5 PG version of Sexton


I really love his ability to attack and finish under control at his size. Also combine that with his shot making and defensive chops and I think he should really be a top 15 pick but might slip because of the sloppy handle and lack of advanced passing ability. Also Illinois getting bounced early in the tournament probably didn't help his stock.

But he's one of those prospects like Sexton who has the hard parts of the game down and just needs to clean up the less physically-reliant stuff up. I'm always a sucker for those kind of guys even if they don't always pan out.

I think he is a better passer than he is credited for. At least in the games I saw he showed off some really great court vision and was throwing dimes everywhere. I think he fits the mold of a Thibs point guard. I would definitely take a shot on him if Bouknight is gone, or perhaps get both since we have two picks.


The player who he reminds me of a little bit is SGA, SGA has better measurables and may be a little better on the drive but Ayo may wind up being a poor man's version of him which at pick 20ish would be a nice find if he did turn out to be it.

Another guy he reminds me of is Burks but he is a better passer though maybe not quite the pure scorer, he may be as good of a scorer eventually but Burks has that 'zone mode' he can get into that I haven't seen from Ayo much in the games I have watched.
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