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What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton?

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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#41 » by RHODEY » Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:19 pm

KnicksGod wrote:He's essentially resting the other guards early on by eating up minutes, so they are fresher in the second half.


Yes I believe this is essentially the reason...because Rose cant play 40 minutes a night at this point.
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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#42 » by BKlutch » Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:27 pm

I found the MSG replay. At 57:00 in the video (about 7:58 in the 3rd), the play starts where Elf messes up again. In the next minute Clyde talks about Randle being upset and they replay the latest bad Elf play. It's a classic. Randle had to commit a foul to prevent a layup. There is also another time about 6 minutes in the 3rd where Randle is sitting on the bench during a timeout and is upset. He is upset with sloppy play :lol:

I can't copy the exact video URL but it's on this page: https://www.msggo.com/teams/3
ESPN didn't show Randle's closeup the way MSG did. Kudos to Clyde for calling it as it is.
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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#43 » by mpharris36 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:48 pm

Jeff Van Gully wrote:
ZUDAMAGIC wrote:Thibs always has attachments to random bums... but Just out of curiosity where would yall rank the best players on this knicks team?after randle ofc


RJ
Mitch
Noel
Rose
Bullock
Burks
Quickley
Taj
Frank
Toppin
Knox
Pelle
Harper
Pinson


You don't know how happy I am that you left Payton off the entire list :lol: :lol: :lol:

I like your list and prob would be indentical...maybe bump rose ahead of Noel just with the way he's playing but that is probably a pretty damn accurate list...well done!
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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#44 » by K-DOT » Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:59 pm

I think people are trying to justify it as a good decision because we happen to be winning while doing it

He's doing it because he's stubborn, and genuinely thinks starting Elfrid is helping us win, when it isn't. We're winning in spite of Elf starting, not because of it. Correlation does not equal causation and all that

If it were about resting Rose, then he would be starting Quickley. Or starting Rose and staggering his minutes, because as it is right now, Rose is playing the last 16-18 minutes of games, which is not how you keep someone rested, but he has to because once he comes in, there's no time to sub him out for Elf to get rest

And come playoff time, if he's gonna insist on still starting Elf, it's gonna be even worse, because a big part of why we've been able to dig ourselves out of early holes so consistently is because our bench outplays the opposing bench, when in the playoffs, the other team isn't gonna play their bench as much.
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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#45 » by Jeff Van Gully » Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:35 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
Jeff Van Gully wrote:
ZUDAMAGIC wrote:Thibs always has attachments to random bums... but Just out of curiosity where would yall rank the best players on this knicks team?after randle ofc


RJ
Mitch
Noel
Rose
Bullock
Burks
Quickley
Taj
Frank
Toppin
Knox
Pelle
Harper
Pinson


You don't know how happy I am that you left Payton off the entire list :lol: :lol: :lol:

I like your list and prob would be indentical...maybe bump rose ahead of Noel just with the way he's playing but that is probably a pretty damn accurate list...well done!


:lol: i left payton off because we are discussing not playing him. but word.

and i think this is a tough and semi-arbitrary exercise, but i had fun thinking through it. at first i was thought about doing draft style. then i said, nah. i have a team right now in the moment. if i am just generally saying who is a better ranked player than who right now... this was the best i could come up with. and willing to concede a few spots. rose and noel were flip flopping around. bullock, burks, and quickley was also tough. it got pretty easy after that.
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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#46 » by GONYK » Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:50 pm

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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#47 » by El Poochio » Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:31 pm

A fantastically working magical charm to absorb all of the negative energy so other guys can shine and stay injury free

Elf the Unsung Hero
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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#48 » by KnicksGod » Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:56 pm

GONYK wrote:
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Thibs @ RealGM board.
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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#49 » by rajajackal » Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:24 pm

KnicksGod wrote:
GONYK wrote:
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Thibs @ RealGM board.

you can tell he's really annoyed about doing scott perry this favor
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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#50 » by BKlutch » Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:44 am

Thibs doesn't want to blow up the team chemistry. He also believes that while IQ's ceiling is miles above Elf, IQ's floor on any given day could be lower (he's a rookie). So he's doing his best to describe good things Elf does that aren't really all that iportant. His biggest job now is keeping the team unified and on the same page.

With all the brillian analysts and data people, everybody in the FO and Thibs know what Elf is. But right now, he's what we've got. He has been lowering Elf's minutes down to 16, so that's the best he can do for now.
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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#51 » by Phish Tank » Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:52 am

I don't think they'd prefer to play Elf, but they don't have a choice and aren't going to make a change as long as the Knicks are on this winning streak. It'll take an injury or losing every game the next few weeks for a change to happen.

Reality is that D-Rose can't really play starter minutes and helps the team more in a Ginobili role than he would as a starting PG. IQ's effectively the backup 2 as well. It really a matter of whether you'd like to never see Elf play and have Frank take whatever semblance of mins at the PG.... honestly I'd rather deal with Elf's minimal PG minutes than Frank's at this point.
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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#52 » by mpharris36 » Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:57 am

Phish Tank wrote:I don't think they'd prefer to play Elf, but they don't have a choice and aren't going to make a change as long as the Knicks are on this winning streak. It'll take an injury or losing every game the next few weeks for a change to happen.

Reality is that D-Rose can't really play starter minutes and helps the team more in a Ginobili role than he would as a starting PG. IQ's effectively the backup 2 as well. It really a matter of whether you'd like to never see Elf play and have Frank take whatever semblance of mins at the PG.... honestly I'd rather deal with Elf's minimal PG minutes than Frank's at this point.


Rose last 4 games

35 minutes
25 minutes
30 minutes
33 minutes

seems like starter minutes to me and they would be better off playing him in shorter spurts then playing him 15-17 minutes straight which he does currently.

Rose should 100% be the starter. Just look at Randel splits with Rose then with Elf....its night and day in terms of NET rating.
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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#53 » by Phish Tank » Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:58 am

mpharris36 wrote:
Phish Tank wrote:I don't think they'd prefer to play Elf, but they don't have a choice and aren't going to make a change as long as the Knicks are on this winning streak. It'll take an injury or losing every game the next few weeks for a change to happen.

Reality is that D-Rose can't really play starter minutes and helps the team more in a Ginobili role than he would as a starting PG. IQ's effectively the backup 2 as well. It really a matter of whether you'd like to never see Elf play and have Frank take whatever semblance of mins at the PG.... honestly I'd rather deal with Elf's minimal PG minutes than Frank's at this point.


Rose last 4 games

35 minutes
25 minutes
30 minutes
33 minutes

seems like starter minutes to me and they would be better off playing him in shorter spurts then playing him 15-17 minutes straight which he does currently.

Rose should 100% be the starter. Just look at Randel splits with Rose then with Elf....its night and day in terms of NET rating.


I understand all of that.... it's a matter of when you want to deal with the non-Rose mins... because you know there will be a dropoff once he leaves.
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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#54 » by mpharris36 » Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:59 am

Phish Tank wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
Phish Tank wrote:I don't think they'd prefer to play Elf, but they don't have a choice and aren't going to make a change as long as the Knicks are on this winning streak. It'll take an injury or losing every game the next few weeks for a change to happen.

Reality is that D-Rose can't really play starter minutes and helps the team more in a Ginobili role than he would as a starting PG. IQ's effectively the backup 2 as well. It really a matter of whether you'd like to never see Elf play and have Frank take whatever semblance of mins at the PG.... honestly I'd rather deal with Elf's minimal PG minutes than Frank's at this point.


Rose last 4 games

35 minutes
25 minutes
30 minutes
33 minutes

seems like starter minutes to me and they would be better off playing him in shorter spurts then playing him 15-17 minutes straight which he does currently.

Rose should 100% be the starter. Just look at Randel splits with Rose then with Elf....its night and day in terms of NET rating.


I understand all of that.... it's a matter of when you want to deal with the non-Rose mins... because you know there will be a dropoff once he leaves.



correct and backcourt of IQ/Burks would be perfectly fine when rose sits.
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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#55 » by JXL » Mon Apr 26, 2021 1:40 am

Look, as long as Payton is only playing less than 20 minutes and isn't totally fkn this team over with his garbage play pretending to be a PG, and Rose/IQ play over 20 minutes while he sulks on the bench cause the team plays a lot better with those two, then it's all good for me.

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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#56 » by B8RcDeMktfxC » Mon Apr 26, 2021 1:47 am

mpharris36 wrote:
Phish Tank wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
Rose last 4 games

35 minutes
25 minutes
30 minutes
33 minutes

seems like starter minutes to me and they would be better off playing him in shorter spurts then playing him 15-17 minutes straight which he does currently.

Rose should 100% be the starter. Just look at Randel splits with Rose then with Elf....its night and day in terms of NET rating.


I understand all of that.... it's a matter of when you want to deal with the non-Rose mins... because you know there will be a dropoff once he leaves.



correct and backcourt of IQ/BurksFrank would be perfectly fine when rose sits.

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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#57 » by Chanel Bomber » Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:04 am

I don't think it would make sense to bench Payton now. Not until the end of the regular season, unless the Knicks go on a losing streak, which would then justify changing the starting line-up. Thibs has painted himself in a corner. He should have benched Payton months ago. Benching him now with the Knicks on a 9-game winning streak would just seem odd.

But if the Knicks make the playoffs and LeFraud predictably sucks the life out of the team in game 1 and Thibs doesn't make the adjustment to bench him in game 2, then we're gonna have a problem. This BS cannot go on in the postseason.

Everyone in that locker room knows Payton sucks. The players at least.

Either Thibs is seeing things that don't exist, or there are some front office politics involved behind Payton's minutes.
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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#58 » by mpharris36 » Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:14 am

B8RcDeMktfxC wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
Phish Tank wrote:
I understand all of that.... it's a matter of when you want to deal with the non-Rose mins... because you know there will be a dropoff once he leaves.



correct and backcourt of IQ/BurksFrank would be perfectly fine when rose sits.

fyp


If thibs sticks with a 9 man when burks comes back im fine. Then use frank as the 10th man (situationally) when you need defense.

Elf has no business playing at this point.
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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#59 » by KnicksGod » Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:36 am

JXL wrote:Look, as long as Payton is only playing less than 20 minutes and isn't totally fkn this team over with his garbage play pretending to be a PG, and Rose/IQ play over 20 minutes while he sulks on the bench cause the team plays a lot better with those two, then it's all good for me.

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Yeah if we win doesn’t matter. I much prefer Frank, but I also feel that if Thibs doesn’t, he knows better.
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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#60 » by prophet_of_rage » Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:39 am

BKlutch wrote:
Are We Ther Yet wrote:Anyone notice Randle last night...shaking his head at Elfturd? He looked pissed and turd boy had a sour face the rest of the game/post game.

I saw that look, too. I knew what he was thinking - it was right after some bone headed play by Elf - think when he lost the ball. They will not let a guard ruin Randle's and the Knicks' game next year after we trade for somebody better.
It was after Payton turned the ball over trying to do the behind the back hesi. Randle had to take a foul to stop the fast break.

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