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What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton?

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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#81 » by Nazrmohamed » Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:13 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
Kampuchea wrote:We need Elf for the playoffs. It tends to get more physical and Elf is our biggest and strongest PG. He struggles with finesse regular season ball but playoff Payton is what we’ve been waiting for and will be rewarded in a few weeks.


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I wanted to laugh too but it's somewhat true. We have to somehow account for why it's working now. Its hard to measure, hard to quantify or qualify. Id like to believe we win in spite of Peytin but there's a large enough sample size to say whatever is working is working and hes part of that. Don't look to me for specific answers though cuz I'm just as confused as you. But it probably IS some aspect of his defense and wearing his matchup down and then you bring in Rose/Quickley and teams don't know how to adjust.
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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#82 » by mpharris36 » Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:25 pm

Nazrmohamed wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
Kampuchea wrote:We need Elf for the playoffs. It tends to get more physical and Elf is our biggest and strongest PG. He struggles with finesse regular season ball but playoff Payton is what we’ve been waiting for and will be rewarded in a few weeks.


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I wanted to laugh too but it's somewhat true. We have to somehow account for why it's working now. Its hard to measure, hard to quantify or qualify. Id like to believe we win in spite of Peytin but there's a large enough sample size to say whatever is working is working and hes part of that. Don't look to me for specific answers though cuz I'm just as confused as you. But it probably IS some aspect of his defense and wearing his matchup down and then you bring in Rose/Quickley and teams don't know how to adjust.


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its really not true at all. Look at the numbers. Rose is playing so out of this world its actually saving the knicks horrible starts with payton.

Even with how well Randle is playing he still has a negative NET rating with Payton on the court. So that means we are losing worse then our opponents with our best player because of Payton is on the floor. When Payton is off the floor we thrive to the point we make up whatever ground is lost with payton.

Payton also has the worst defensive rating on the team. So for how atrocious he makes our offense with lack of spacing...its actually his defense that hurts us more then his offense.

Its this simple. We are winning because our bench usually outplays the other teams bench. And our finishing lineups do not include Payton. That is the simple answer to it all.
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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#83 » by K-DOT » Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:26 pm

Nazrmohamed wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
Kampuchea wrote:We need Elf for the playoffs. It tends to get more physical and Elf is our biggest and strongest PG. He struggles with finesse regular season ball but playoff Payton is what we’ve been waiting for and will be rewarded in a few weeks.


Image


I wanted to laugh too but it's somewhat true. We have to somehow account for why it's working now. Its hard to measure, hard to quantify or qualify. Id like to believe we win in spite of Peytin but there's a large enough sample size to say whatever is working is working and hes part of that. Don't look to me for specific answers though cuz I'm just as confused as you. But it probably IS some aspect of his defense and wearing his matchup down and then you bring in Rose/Quickley and teams don't know how to adjust.

This is backwards thinking, and also false

There's a large enough sample size to say he's objectively not part of what's working, and we are winning in spite of him

Trying to assign some mystical aspect to it is just trying to justify a clearly stupid decision made by people who have otherwise made great decisions all year. Just because Thibs is a good coach doesn't mean every choice he makes is golden.
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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#84 » by blueNorange » Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:29 pm

the only way payton loses playing time/his role is if a bunch of fans call in talk shows and make it a thing, to the point that the media will have to bring it up.

because the fact that payton has been averaging 20 mpg since the all star break suggests the coaching staff knows he sucks.
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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#85 » by mpharris36 » Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:30 pm

K-DOT wrote:
Nazrmohamed wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
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I wanted to laugh too but it's somewhat true. We have to somehow account for why it's working now. Its hard to measure, hard to quantify or qualify. Id like to believe we win in spite of Peytin but there's a large enough sample size to say whatever is working is working and hes part of that. Don't look to me for specific answers though cuz I'm just as confused as you. But it probably IS some aspect of his defense and wearing his matchup down and then you bring in Rose/Quickley and teams don't know how to adjust.

This is backwards thinking, and also false

There's a large enough sample size to say he's objectively not part of what's working, and we are winning in spite of him

Trying to assign some mystical aspect to it is just trying to justify a clearly stupid decision made by people who have otherwise made great decisions all year. Just because Thibs is a good coach doesn't mean every choice he makes is golden.


the only explanation that I believe thibs believes is he is loyal (almost to a fault) and that he believes our advantage is in our bench so he doesn't want to change that group. At this point he probably is just hoping paytons mintues just keep the game close and we will strike with our bench. It's a horrible rationale but I believe its the only one that makes sense to me.

He knows Payton minutes aren't good but he believe in continuity and is just hopeful paytons minutes don't cost us wins...which during this 9 game stretch hasn't been the case even though he clearly has been hurting more than helping.
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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#86 » by BowlRips » Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:21 pm

What happens in the playoffs?
You thought that guys on the team were playing big minutes now? Randle and RJ will prob be signed up for 42-48 minutes a night.
Does Thibs continue to give Elf his 15 minutes?
I could see Burks starting at PG

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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#87 » by Nazrmohamed » Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:49 pm

K-DOT wrote:
Nazrmohamed wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
Image


I wanted to laugh too but it's somewhat true. We have to somehow account for why it's working now. Its hard to measure, hard to quantify or qualify. Id like to believe we win in spite of Peytin but there's a large enough sample size to say whatever is working is working and hes part of that. Don't look to me for specific answers though cuz I'm just as confused as you. But it probably IS some aspect of his defense and wearing his matchup down and then you bring in Rose/Quickley and teams don't know how to adjust.

This is backwards thinking, and also false

There's a large enough sample size to say he's objectively not part of what's working, and we are winning in spite of him

Trying to assign some mystical aspect to it is just trying to justify a clearly stupid decision made by people who have otherwise made great decisions all year. Just because Thibs is a good coach doesn't mean every choice he makes is golden.


Well then you guys win. You didn't have to try really hard cuz I can't stand Peyton. I thought the exercise was to act almost as his lawyer and try our best to make some type of argument in his favor. Too hard a client
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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#88 » by Deeeez Knicks » Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:55 pm

This sound like something Elfrid would do :lol:

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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#89 » by ny-n-md » Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:13 pm

He is without a doubt the worst starting PG in the league. We always have to dig ourselves out of the hole he dug us into. I can’t wait to see Quickley and RJ get their first postseason minutes. Payton isn’t worth the headache for the playoffs. You can get away with his subpar play when the games don’t matter, not so much in the playoffs.
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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#90 » by NYKAL » Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:59 pm

he's playing fewer and fewer minutes & coach is showing less patience with his mistakes so, that is a good thing. I think he's getting minimum playtime as a favor to his agent. It hasn't been so much time that it hurts, just long enough to establish that he still sucks ass
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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#91 » by mpharris36 » Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:02 pm

NYKAL wrote:he's playing fewer and fewer minutes & coach is showing less patience with his mistakes so, that is a good thing. I think he's getting minimum playtime as a favor to his agent. It hasn't been so much time that it hurts, just long enough to establish that he still sucks ass


the less and less minutes is fine. But if he's just getting token starts now its actually hurting the club because we get off to sub par starts and he overextends our bench because now you can't transition bench minutes well enough you end up overextending rose for 15-18 minutes straight at one time.
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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#92 » by El Poochio » Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:00 pm

Unreal playmaking and locked up CP3 in his 2 mins of play time offense was running like a well oiled machine while Rose was just getting buckets haters gonna hate scapeGOAT
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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#93 » by El Poochio » Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:16 pm

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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#94 » by Montmorencie » Tue Apr 27, 2021 1:15 pm

The thing is we have more options other than D-Rose. Why isn't Thibs playing IQ on 1,or Frank more, Frank ain't worse than Elf. Randle can play point-forward as well.

Thibs is making it looks like its D-Rose or Elf only.
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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#95 » by Barcs » Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:20 pm

It's called defense. I'm honestly tired of the Payton hate. He's not the greatest on offense, but he works hard and plays solid defense. He's part of why we are where we are.
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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#96 » by Barcs » Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:21 pm

ny-n-md wrote:He is without a doubt the worst starting PG in the league. We always have to dig ourselves out of the hole he dug us into. I can’t wait to see Quickley and RJ get their first postseason minutes. Payton isn’t worth the headache for the playoffs. You can get away with his subpar play when the games don’t matter, not so much in the playoffs.


The worst in the league? I'm sorry but that's an absurd statement.
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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#97 » by K-DOT » Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:23 pm

Barcs wrote:he works hard and plays solid defense

No he doesn't

You're falling into that trap of circular logic where people try to justify why he's stuck around so much by saying it must be defense, but he's not a good defender. He's living off the reputation he made in college, but by any metric as well as the eye test, he sucks on defense

And he doesn't work hard, either. He's pretty lazy on the court.
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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#98 » by TwitterFingers » Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:46 pm

Barcs wrote:It's called defense. I'm honestly tired of the Payton hate. He's not the greatest on offense, but he works hard and plays solid defense. He's part of why we are where we are.


Agreed. And the last few games he hasn’t even played that many minutes. I personally would rather Quickly take all of Payton’s minutes, but I don’t think the key to this team being a lot better is sitting Payton like people pretend it is.
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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#99 » by Chanel Bomber » Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:56 pm

Barcs wrote:It's called defense. I'm honestly tired of the Payton hate. He's not the greatest on offense, but he works hard and plays solid defense. He's part of why we are where we are.

Payton is a lazy and overall lousy defender.

He's switchable by virtue of being 6'4, and he has his moments defensively when he decides to actually bother, but otherwise, he's basically awful defensively.

He just dies on every screen, he's undisciplined and often loses sight of his man because of his insatiable desire to be in position to grab the rebound (a trackable stat as opposed to defense, unsurprisingly), he's often slow closing out on shooters, and he regularly gets beat one-on-one.

That's just the eye test. You want stats?

Payton quite simply has thee worst defensive rating on the team at 111.2 points per 100 possessions. In terms of defensive on/off, opposing teams score +6.7 points per 100 possessions when he's on the floor. He shares most of his minutes with the four starters, and none of them has anywhere near such a negative defensive on/off (+1.2 for RJ, +1.3 for Bullock, -1.1 for Randle).

Payton is KILLING us defensively.
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Re: What are the Knicks getting out of playing Payton? 

Post#100 » by Nbabrothers » Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:16 pm

Kampuchea wrote:Would be nice if Burks came back and Payton was dropped from the lineup. Can Burks start at PG? Or maybe Rose starts and IQ/Burks is the backcourt bench tandem.

That would be ideal. Obviously we are going to be drafting a point guard and/or signing a free agent point guard or trading for a point guard.
That point guard we get will be our starter for next season. Elfrid will be gone because his contract is up so addition via subtraction.

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