The myth of Payton's defense

[Chanel Bomber]

I wanted to start a conversation specifically about Payton's defense because it's something I've seen a few posters refer to in their defense of Thibs for playing Payton.

My goal here isn't to libel Payton (the game threads suffice) but to attempt to deconstruct the myth that he's a good defender.

I believe this notion rests on nothing but the mere assumption that at 6'4 he's a helpful switchable defender with the length to contain point guards, which is entirely theoretical but isn't actually rooted in facts. He's actually a terrible all-around defender.

Every time I watch him play, he just dies on screens when teams put him in the pick-and-roll, and then he stays in no-man's land roaming aimlessly behind the action without making the effort to cover the space between the ball and the roll man. He always finds himself stuck in that space where he's completely useless, behind the opposing point guard (who's already being guarded by Noel) and nowhere near the actual play.

Honestly it's like he only follows the ball (same tendency on offense) and isn't able to conceptualize that his duty sometimes is to go away from the ball to cover space. That's probably the biggest reason is why he's one of the lowest BBIQ players I have ever watched. He only follows the ball.

Then he's probably the worst help defender on the team. His close-outs are lazy, and he often gives up and stays near the paint to hopefully catch a rebound (surprise, surprise, a trackable boxscore stat).

How can anyone watch those plays and come away with the impression that he's a solid defender or that he "sets the tone" defensively?

Read on Twitter

(S/o to mp for the tweet)

The numbers are also unanimous in painting him as the worst defender on the team. It's undeniable at this point. The fact that the Knicks are so much better defensively with Rose - not exactly prime Jason Kidd on that end of the floor himself - is just stupefying. Of course, Payton has his moments defensively but these moments are by far the exception and not the rule. Here are Payton's numbers:

Defensive rating: 111.2 points per 100 possessions, worst on the team (team is 108.1)
Defensive on/off: -6.6 points per 100 possessions, worst on the team

Thibs has done a brilliant job coaching this team all season. But him giving Payton minutes - let alone starting him - because he somehow sets the tone defensively is neither supported by stats nor the eye test imo.

[GONYK]

It honestly might be better to only play 4 guys to start the game if Thibs wants to leave the bench intact.

In all seriousness, Payton is essentially a big man playing point, in terms of his effectiveness guarding the perimeter and the way the defense treats him.

Thibs should just play another big, so we can stop getting thrashed on the boards.

[HarthorneWingo]

It was very apparent last night. Just start Rose with IQ coming off the bench

[Oscirus]

Im not seeing it but is payton more physical in playing defense perhaps?

[Adelheid]

There was this player from way back then that was really good on defense and he is a "Payton" but his name is Gary, not Elfrid.
Maybe Tom is drawing a connection between these 2 individuals.

Elfrid "the glove" Payton

*runs*

[Separatista]

We all knew it. Media and the msg staff keeps hammering elf’s “defensive prowess” but on-court performance says otherwise. In fact, it’s so obvious that payton is a detriment on defense that elf himself decided to **** the offense too so that msg could talk about his “ability to go inside the paint anytime.” That statement is also a myth btw. Opposing teams just let him drive because they can easily block him and he is so resistant to passing to open players. That’s a double whammy if you ask me. Bad at defense and then to compensate for that, **** up the offense. Complete liability of a player.

[robillionaire]

I’ve been saying this for over half the season. Does anybody have any advanced stats that show he’s a good defender because I’m not seeing it

[Nostrand Ave]

Rose absolutely can't start. He's our 6th man. Just give Payton extremely limited minutes. It seems his minutes keep reducing with every game. Perhaps we can kick the tires on the new PG Luca?

[robillionaire]

At this point we have 5 regular season games left and after that most likely somewhere between 2 and 5 postseason games. Thibs ain't changing it so instead of running the numbers about how bad this dude sucks I'm just gonna let the season end in a couple weeks and then hope he is gone. No point continuing to stress about it

[rajajackal]

unless steals within seconds after turning the ball over count, payton sucks at defense

[Garbagelo]

the only reason he is starting is because he is Randle's friend

you know it

[prophet_of_rage]

He's just a placeholder, people. That's all. And now with Burk and IQ out and frank never showing anything .... we've got five games to go.

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[Im Coming Home]

If Thibs wants to keep the bench intact, just start Frank. He cannot be worse than Payton. His defense is actually good, and he can actually 'set the tone' defensively. And he can kinda-sorta shoot, which Payton can't. He also isn't selfish on the offensive end like Payton is, and will make the small plays and passes that need to.

Its literally so obvious to anyone what Thibs should do and yet he keeps starting Payton and up until last game Frank was benched, its beyond obsurd.

Frank is what Thibs THINKS Payton is.

[Im Coming Home]

the only reason he is starting is because he is Randle's friend

you know it

I would've said this like 6 months ago, but I think even Randle is sick of Payton, if you remember a few games ago he lost his cool after like 3 consecutive bad plays by Payton and was hot.

[Ray Williams]

He's just a placeholder, people. That's all. And now with Burk and IQ out and frank never showing anything .... we've got five games to go.

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Frank has shown a lot more than Payton has. With both likely being free agents next year, let’s see which winning team signs Frank and which Chinese team signs Payton.

[KnicksGadfly]

Are there actually that many Elfrid fans on this forum? I can think of 3 off the top of my head

[prophet_of_rage]

He's just a placeholder, people. That's all. And now with Burk and IQ out and frank never showing anything .... we've got five games to go.

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Frank has shown a lot more than Payton has. With both likely being free agents next year, let’s see which winning team signs Frank and which Chinese team signs Payton.

My bet is a Frencg team and a Chinese team. Neither fills the 15 minute hole.

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[nedleeds]

That first Blazers game, Wallytard in the pre-game was ranting about Payton getting into Dame. Dame came out took a warm **** down Paytons throat, and they played 5 on 4 defense zone on the other end. He's a league average defensive guard at best, zero chance he's better than Frank. Frank still hasn't gotten the 'veteran respect' of the terrible officials, but in every other way he's better than Payton. Frank will also shoot a spot up 3. No reason at all to play Payton other than Scott Perry's resume.

[nedleeds]

There was this player from way back then that was really good on defense and he is a "Payton" but his name is Gary, not Elfrid.
Maybe Tom is drawing a connection between these 2 individuals.

Elfrid "the glove" Payton

*runs*

[prophet_of_rage]

That first Blazers game, Wallytard in the pre-game was ranting about Payton getting into Dame. Dame came out took a warm **** down Paytons throat, and they played 5 on 4 defense zone on the other end. He's a league average defensive guard at best, zero chance he's better than Frank. Frank still hasn't gotten the 'veteran respect' of the terrible officials, but in every other way he's better than Payton. Frank will also shoot a spot up 3. No reason at all to play Payton other than Scott Perry's resume.

Scott Perry isn't even involved with the team. Coaches don't Iike Frank and now we have to get a starting point guard so we can have the advantage with Rose off the bench.

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