ImageImageImageImageImage

the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season

Moderators: King of Canada, Thugger HBC, NoLayupRule, Jeff Van Gully, Deeeez Knicks, GONYK, Capn'O, mpharris36, mrpoetryNmotion, j4remi, K-DOT

8516knicks
Rookie
Posts: 1,245
And1: 647
Joined: May 18, 2017
   

Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#41 » by 8516knicks » Tue Jun 8, 2021 8:08 pm

ccvle wrote:The mistake is people think Randle can be effective as a 2nd or 3rd option.


It's an unknown.

The closest we came to this was in the playoffs with Rose (maybe) as the #1 for a bit as Randle and RJ faltered.

During the season it was great with JR cranking out double doubles and potential triple doubles and our unbelievable 9 game win streak. But Atlanta proved that was just a dream/fluke.

We really don't know what Randle and JR will do next year as we don't know who will round out the starting 5.

Does Randle have to be the center of the offense to be effective? It wasn't pretty when Rose took over in the playoffs. And Rose is probably a 20 min 2nd unit guy to be at his most effective now in his career.

So - back to do we get a point guard who can penetrate and dish, a center who can shoot a bit and a forward/wing who can get his own shot and score.

The names floated (Nunn, Robinson, Holmes plus Vidozic and draft picks) indicated the FO is aware of what's needed. I don't expect a major trade but steady additions that propel us (with luck) to the 2nd round next year. Then we have one summer to use the CAP if it hasn't been used and hope to hit the MEGA.

Personally, I hope we get this year's Halliburton.
nedleeds
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,665
And1: 4,810
Joined: Dec 25, 2016
Location: Bridgeport, NY
Contact:
 

Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#42 » by nedleeds » Tue Jun 8, 2021 8:27 pm

We aren't good enough to trade for anybody that's realistically available that will get us a top 2 seed and a shot at a title.
Zenzibar wrote:Nevertheless, Payton is not a finished product yet and unless the team moves him in a couple of weeks, I anticipate him trending upward with this coaching staff.
User avatar
NoDopeOnSundays
General Manager
Posts: 9,594
And1: 16,492
Joined: Nov 22, 2005
         

Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#43 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Tue Jun 8, 2021 8:29 pm

8516knicks wrote:
ccvle wrote:The mistake is people think Randle can be effective as a 2nd or 3rd option.


It's an unknown.

The closest we came to this was in the playoffs with Rose (maybe) as the #1 for a bit as Randle and RJ faltered.

During the season it was great with JR cranking out double doubles and potential triple doubles and our unbelievable 9 game win streak. But Atlanta proved that was just a dream/fluke.

We really don't know what Randle and JR will do next year as we don't know who will round out the starting 5.

Does Randle have to be the center of the offense to be effective? It wasn't pretty when Rose took over in the playoffs. And Rose is probably a 20 min 2nd unit guy to be at his most effective now in his career.

So - back to do we get a point guard who can penetrate and dish, a center who can shoot a bit and a forward/wing who can get his own shot and score.

The names floated (Nunn, Robinson, Holmes plus Vidozic and draft picks) indicated the FO is aware of what's needed. I don't expect a major trade but steady additions that propel us (with luck) to the 2nd round next year. Then we have one summer to use the CAP if it hasn't been used and hope to hit the MEGA.

Personally, I hope we get this year's Halliburton.



Yes, Randle needs to be the center of an offense to be effective, even when he's off the ball he's trying to screen to get it back, often dragging his defender with him to help out pretty easily. Our offense is gross, we're near the bottom of the league in passes made per game, and a crazy amount of our shots come late in the shot clock. That's part Thibs running an antiquated system, and Randle being unwilling to stand in the corner like he makes almost everyone else on the team do. The ball gets to him at such an obscene level that you can't have a high quality offense like that.
nedleeds
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,665
And1: 4,810
Joined: Dec 25, 2016
Location: Bridgeport, NY
Contact:
 

Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#44 » by nedleeds » Tue Jun 8, 2021 8:43 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
8516knicks wrote:
ccvle wrote:The mistake is people think Randle can be effective as a 2nd or 3rd option.


It's an unknown.

The closest we came to this was in the playoffs with Rose (maybe) as the #1 for a bit as Randle and RJ faltered.

During the season it was great with JR cranking out double doubles and potential triple doubles and our unbelievable 9 game win streak. But Atlanta proved that was just a dream/fluke.

We really don't know what Randle and JR will do next year as we don't know who will round out the starting 5.

Does Randle have to be the center of the offense to be effective? It wasn't pretty when Rose took over in the playoffs. And Rose is probably a 20 min 2nd unit guy to be at his most effective now in his career.

So - back to do we get a point guard who can penetrate and dish, a center who can shoot a bit and a forward/wing who can get his own shot and score.

The names floated (Nunn, Robinson, Holmes plus Vidozic and draft picks) indicated the FO is aware of what's needed. I don't expect a major trade but steady additions that propel us (with luck) to the 2nd round next year. Then we have one summer to use the CAP if it hasn't been used and hope to hit the MEGA.

Personally, I hope we get this year's Halliburton.



Yes, Randle needs to be the center of an offense to be effective, even when he's off the ball he's trying to screen to get it back, often dragging his defender with him to help out pretty easily. Our offense is gross, we're near the bottom of the league in passes made per game, and a crazy amount of our shots come late in the shot clock. That's part Thibs running an antiquated system, and Randle being unwilling to stand in the corner like he makes almost everyone else on the team do. The ball gets to him at such an obscene level that you can't have a high quality offense like that.

If his 3 point shooting is real he should be able to stand and make spot ups. But we don't play a pick and roll point guard who could at least prove that out. We have the lob threat and rim gravity guy in Mitch. Thibs refused to play major minutes or invest minutes into our young PGs to try to get them experience, because you know your starters leading the league in minutes and squeezing 3 more regular season wins is what matters. Then we got humiliated in the playoffs when Isorandle got exposed. We'll be an atrocious offense as long as Thibs is here barring some miracle FA signing.
Zenzibar wrote:Nevertheless, Payton is not a finished product yet and unless the team moves him in a couple of weeks, I anticipate him trending upward with this coaching staff.
Nightowl26
Ballboy
Posts: 13
And1: 4
Joined: Jun 08, 2021
       

Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#45 » by Nightowl26 » Tue Jun 8, 2021 9:15 pm

Agree Randle isn't/shouldn't be your #1 option. He's a ok #2, great #3. I personally would trade him now with his valve being as high as it will ever be. We need a Franchise PG and Wing shooters. Look at Hawk, they have built a really nice roster.
KnixinSix
Pro Prospect
Posts: 938
And1: 382
Joined: Jul 27, 2013

Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#46 » by KnixinSix » Wed Jun 9, 2021 1:24 am

Feeling Lillard says 'I do' to NY. Then he attracts another FA to sign here.
For I am unashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe. For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last. -Romans 1:16-17
NewKnicks
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,762
And1: 749
Joined: Feb 03, 2021

Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#47 » by NewKnicks » Wed Jun 9, 2021 5:53 am

Chanel Bomber wrote:The best long-term bet for the Knicks is to trade for Zach Lavine.

His scoring efficiency is already elite, and he can do it both on and off the ball. He's improved every year since he entered the league, and he's still young, so it's reasonable to assume he's not done improving as a player.

Best short-term option is Chris Paul in free agency.

Either way, the Knicks have to bet on or invest in a difference-maker. Dame fits that description but the Knicks won't be able to build around him, especially since they'll have a short window knowing he's gonna be 31 this summer (unless Kawhi signs here which I don't see happening).


It's not going to happen, but I'll play along.

You're talking about trading for a 26 year star in the NBA, yet you're worried about giving up one of our young players? The Bulls are not going to give Lavine away for a few crappy 1st round picks. The package at a minimum would be RJ/IQ and 3 first rounders. You're as big of a data guy as there is around here, and you know just how good of a season he just had analytics-wise. Do you really think you'd get Lavine for basically nothing? Don't forget, the Knicks would not be the only team trying to trade for him. If the price was that cheap (it won't be) you'll have teams lining up to take him off the Bulls hands.

Also, you have no idea how good the Bulls will be next year. Neither do I. They have a more talented roster than the Knicks, and the Knicks finished 4th. I'm going to give them more than just 30 games to decide if their whole future is lost now because of the Vuc trade. I actually think that after having a full offseason to practice together, and a 1 year older PWill, they have a chance to improve quite a bit. We shall see.
Ghetto Gospel
Senior
Posts: 710
And1: 398
Joined: Feb 08, 2011

Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#48 » by Ghetto Gospel » Wed Jun 9, 2021 9:07 pm

NewKnicks wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:The best long-term bet for the Knicks is to trade for Zach Lavine.

His scoring efficiency is already elite, and he can do it both on and off the ball. He's improved every year since he entered the league, and he's still young, so it's reasonable to assume he's not done improving as a player.

Best short-term option is Chris Paul in free agency.

Either way, the Knicks have to bet on or invest in a difference-maker. Dame fits that description but the Knicks won't be able to build around him, especially since they'll have a short window knowing he's gonna be 31 this summer (unless Kawhi signs here which I don't see happening).


It's not going to happen, but I'll play along.

You're talking about trading for a 26 year star in the NBA, yet you're worried about giving up one of our young players? The Bulls are not going to give Lavine away for a few crappy 1st round picks. The package at a minimum would be RJ/IQ and 3 first rounders. You're as big of a data guy as there is around here, and you know just how good of a season he just had analytics-wise. Do you really think you'd get Lavine for basically nothing? Don't forget, the Knicks would not be the only team trying to trade for him. If the price was that cheap (it won't be) you'll have teams lining up to take him off the Bulls hands.

Also, you have no idea how good the Bulls will be next year. Neither do I. They have a more talented roster than the Knicks, and the Knicks finished 4th. I'm going to give them more than just 30 games to decide if their whole future is lost now because of the Vuc trade. I actually think that after having a full offseason to practice together, and a 1 year older PWill, they have a chance to improve quite a bit. We shall see.


The package doesn't have to be quite that big, it's really still TBD. It's already been reported that zach lavine won't be signing an extension with the bulls this summer and will test free agency next year. No team is going to offer a big trade for him unless they have assurances from lavine that he will be there long term and we've already seen the price for a 1 year rental with Kawhi. It's in the bulls best interest to just trade him and extract something of value rather than let him walk for free. of course, any zach lavine trade to NY is also contingent on him wanting to be in NY long term which is also questionable at the moment
NewKnicks
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,762
And1: 749
Joined: Feb 03, 2021

Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#49 » by NewKnicks » Wed Jun 9, 2021 10:23 pm

Show me the report that says Lavine will test the free agency market. I don't want to hear someone's opinion, either. Not being a jerk about it, but anyone can 'report' anything. Happens all the time in our clickbait world.

The Bulls are not moving on from Lavine after trading for 30 year old Vuc. Makes no sense. And if it was true, it would be a big package. 26 yr All-Stars don't just appear on the market and get traded for a few late first rounders. Like I said in my post, if that was the case every team in the league would be interested. Which would drive up the price.
NewKnicks
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,762
And1: 749
Joined: Feb 03, 2021

Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#50 » by NewKnicks » Wed Jun 9, 2021 10:27 pm

BugginOut wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:I think we have to trade for him. Isn't the difference in salary going to be significant depending on which team has his bird rights?

Problem is I like the potential of all our young players. But I'm starting to rethink my stance on Obi/IQ vs RJ because the game seems to come a lot easier to them, and at the end of the day efficiency is the name of the game. I still favor RJ, but I'm starting to question that.

For Lavine, I'll trade a few unprotected firsts, no question about it. I like our youth more than these picks.

They’re most likely gonna ask for one of our young pieces. We’ll just have to see how they’re playing next year, too early to tell which one we should give up. And yeah, I have always been skeptical about RJ’s potential even since he was in Duke. Hopefully he makes a leap next year

Bulls would have no leverage if Lavine asks specifically to go to NY, especially if he is going to be an unrestricted free agent. It would be two picks maximum


You keep forgetting that NY would not be the only team interested in Lavine. If the price was that low, EVERY TEAM in the NBA will be trying to get him. Which drives up the price.

And the Bulls are not going to let him walk. Everyone here is going to have a heart attack once the news comes out that he signed a new deal.
User avatar
BugginOut
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,746
And1: 5,585
Joined: May 25, 2014
   

Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#51 » by BugginOut » Wed Jun 9, 2021 10:39 pm

NewKnicks wrote:
BugginOut wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:They’re most likely gonna ask for one of our young pieces. We’ll just have to see how they’re playing next year, too early to tell which one we should give up. And yeah, I have always been skeptical about RJ’s potential even since he was in Duke. Hopefully he makes a leap next year

Bulls would have no leverage if Lavine asks specifically to go to NY, especially if he is going to be an unrestricted free agent. It would be two picks maximum


You keep forgetting that NY would not be the only team interested in Lavine. If the price was that low, EVERY TEAM in the NBA will be trying to get him. Which drives up the price.

And the Bulls are not going to let him walk. Everyone here is going to have a heart attack once the news comes out that he signed a new deal.

It’s the last year of his deal. No team is going to trade for him without a guarantee he will resign. Especially if he lists the Knicks as his destination of choice

Lavigne could resign for the money since the Bulls can offer the most but unless the Bulls improve he’s gone with 2 or 3 years
User avatar
BugginOut
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,746
And1: 5,585
Joined: May 25, 2014
   

Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#52 » by BugginOut » Wed Jun 9, 2021 10:58 pm

NewKnicks wrote:Show me the report that says Lavine will test the free agency market. I don't want to hear someone's opinion, either. Not being a jerk about it, but anyone can 'report' anything. Happens all the time in our clickbait world.

The Bulls are not moving on from Lavine after trading for 30 year old Vuc. Makes no sense. And if it was true, it would be a big package. 26 yr All-Stars don't just appear on the market and get traded for a few late first rounders. Like I said in my post, if that was the case every team in the league would be interested. Which would drive up the price.

You said earlier that we should trade Randle for GSW 14th pick straight up lol. If 26 yr all stars don’t just appear on the market why should we trade our 26 year old All-NBA player for even less value?
NewKnicks
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,762
And1: 749
Joined: Feb 03, 2021

Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#53 » by NewKnicks » Wed Jun 9, 2021 11:42 pm

BugginOut wrote:
NewKnicks wrote:
BugginOut wrote:Bulls would have no leverage if Lavine asks specifically to go to NY, especially if he is going to be an unrestricted free agent. It would be two picks maximum


You keep forgetting that NY would not be the only team interested in Lavine. If the price was that low, EVERY TEAM in the NBA will be trying to get him. Which drives up the price.

And the Bulls are not going to let him walk. Everyone here is going to have a heart attack once the news comes out that he signed a new deal.

It’s the last year of his deal. No team is going to trade for him without a guarantee he will resign. Especially if he lists the Knicks as his destination of choice

Lavigne could resign for the money since the Bulls can offer the most but unless the Bulls improve he’s gone with 2 or 3 years


No team? No team in the NBA would trade for a 26 year old All Star who had one of the better seasons in the league? Really? No team?

Why would Lavine list the Knicks as his destination of choice? Do you have any reasoning behind why he would do that? He's a West Coast guy but he's going to choose the Knicks over all other teams? He watched the playoffs too, ya know.
NewKnicks
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,762
And1: 749
Joined: Feb 03, 2021

Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#54 » by NewKnicks » Wed Jun 9, 2021 11:49 pm

BugginOut wrote:
NewKnicks wrote:Show me the report that says Lavine will test the free agency market. I don't want to hear someone's opinion, either. Not being a jerk about it, but anyone can 'report' anything. Happens all the time in our clickbait world.

The Bulls are not moving on from Lavine after trading for 30 year old Vuc. Makes no sense. And if it was true, it would be a big package. 26 yr All-Stars don't just appear on the market and get traded for a few late first rounders. Like I said in my post, if that was the case every team in the league would be interested. Which would drive up the price.

You said earlier that we should trade Randle for GSW 14th pick straight up lol. If 26 yr all stars don’t just appear on the market why should we trade our 26 year old All-NBA player for even less value?


Because Lavine is a lot better than Randle. Also, he's a shooting guard, which is much more preferred than an iso PF.

I don't think Randle is more than fringe all-star at best. OTOH, I think Lavine is just scratching the surface in terms of his future. I'm pretty sure most GM's would take Lavine over Randle as well. I'm sure you disagree with that, which is fine.

Is Randle on the market, btw? I don't think he is, is he? I wish he was on the market because I'd like to trade him. Also, Lavine is NOT on the market at all. That's pure speculation at best. Like I said, 26 year All-Stars don't show up on the market. Neither one of them are on the market.

I don't know why you try to play this 'gotcha' game with me. You have a strange fascination about my posts.

It's really simple. I think Lavine is a way better player than Randle. So, I'd trade Randle for the 14th pick (if offered). If I'm the Bulls, I would never trade Lavine for just the 14th pick.

In the end you can pretend that Lavine only wants to come to the Knicks, and we'll get him for cheap. But you're going to be disappointed this time next year.
User avatar
BugginOut
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,746
And1: 5,585
Joined: May 25, 2014
   

Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#55 » by BugginOut » Wed Jun 9, 2021 11:50 pm

NewKnicks wrote:
BugginOut wrote:
NewKnicks wrote:
You keep forgetting that NY would not be the only team interested in Lavine. If the price was that low, EVERY TEAM in the NBA will be trying to get him. Which drives up the price.

And the Bulls are not going to let him walk. Everyone here is going to have a heart attack once the news comes out that he signed a new deal.

It’s the last year of his deal. No team is going to trade for him without a guarantee he will resign. Especially if he lists the Knicks as his destination of choice

Lavigne could resign for the money since the Bulls can offer the most but unless the Bulls improve he’s gone with 2 or 3 years


No team? No team in the NBA would trade for a 26 year old All Star who had one of the better seasons in the league? Really? No team?

Why would Lavine list the Knicks as his destination of choice? Do you have any reasoning behind why he would do that? He's a West Coast guy but he's going to choose the Knicks over all other teams? He watched the playoffs too, ya know.

Because that’s the situation we are talking about?
Bulls would have no leverage if Lavine asks specifically to go to NY, especially if he is going to be an unrestricted free agent. It would be two picks maximum

The whole trading situation is based on Lavine wanting to got to NY. Bulls aren’t trading Lavine unless he wants to be traded that’s the point. He either gets traded to his team of choice to get a super max or leaves in FA. The Bulls aren’t trading him for a haul.
NewKnicks
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,762
And1: 749
Joined: Feb 03, 2021

Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#56 » by NewKnicks » Wed Jun 9, 2021 11:57 pm

BugginOut wrote:
NewKnicks wrote:
BugginOut wrote:It’s the last year of his deal. No team is going to trade for him without a guarantee he will resign. Especially if he lists the Knicks as his destination of choice

Lavigne could resign for the money since the Bulls can offer the most but unless the Bulls improve he’s gone with 2 or 3 years


No team? No team in the NBA would trade for a 26 year old All Star who had one of the better seasons in the league? Really? No team?

Why would Lavine list the Knicks as his destination of choice? Do you have any reasoning behind why he would do that? He's a West Coast guy but he's going to choose the Knicks over all other teams? He watched the playoffs too, ya know.

Because that’s the situation we are talking about?
Bulls would have no leverage if Lavine asks specifically to go to NY, especially if he is going to be an unrestricted free agent. It would be two picks maximum

The whole trading situation is based on Lavine wanting to got to NY. Bulls aren’t trading Lavine unless he wants to be traded that’s the point. He either gets traded to his team of choice to get a super max or leaves in FA. The Bulls aren’t trading him for a haul.


Dude, your takes are just wrong. No one is getting Lavine for scraps. :lol:

And you think a West Coast guy is dying to come to the Knicks, after watching how our Knicks just played in the playoffs. As if he's calling all his friends saying "I'm the only missing piece of the Knicks. I'm going there".

I don't have the energy to go back and forth with you. You don't provide takes that can be taken seriously. They are just Knicks fluff takes, where we get great players at really cheap prices, because everyone wants to come join the Knicks.
User avatar
BugginOut
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,746
And1: 5,585
Joined: May 25, 2014
   

Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#57 » by BugginOut » Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:04 am

NewKnicks wrote:
BugginOut wrote:
NewKnicks wrote:Show me the report that says Lavine will test the free agency market. I don't want to hear someone's opinion, either. Not being a jerk about it, but anyone can 'report' anything. Happens all the time in our clickbait world.

The Bulls are not moving on from Lavine after trading for 30 year old Vuc. Makes no sense. And if it was true, it would be a big package. 26 yr All-Stars don't just appear on the market and get traded for a few late first rounders. Like I said in my post, if that was the case every team in the league would be interested. Which would drive up the price.

You said earlier that we should trade Randle for GSW 14th pick straight up lol. If 26 yr all stars don’t just appear on the market why should we trade our 26 year old All-NBA player for even less value?


Because Lavine is a lot better than Randle. Also, he's a shooting guard, which is much more preferred than an iso PF.

If I'm the Knicks, I trade Randle because his value is at an all time high at the moment (depending on how teams rate him after that pathetic playoff performance). I don't think Randle is more than fringe all-star at best. OTOH, I think Lavine is just scratching the surface in terms of his future. I'm pretty sure most GM's would take Lavine over Randle as well. I'm sure you disagree with that, which is fine.

Is Randle on the market, btw? I don't think he is, is he? I wish he was on the market because I'd like to trade him. Also, Lavine is NOT on the market at all. That's pure speculation at best. Like I said, 26 year All-Stars don't show up on the market. Neither one of them are on the market.

I don't know why you try to play this 'gotcha' game with me. You have strange fascination with my posts.

It's really simple. I think Lavine is a way better player than Randle. So, I'd trade Randle for the 14th pick (if offered). If I'm the Bulls, I would never trade Lavine for just the 14th pick.

In the end you can pretend that Lavine only wants to come to the Knicks, and we'll get him for cheap. But you're going to be disappointed this time next year.


Lavine hasn’t had a season even close to what Randle just had. You can talk playoffs, but Lavine hasn’t even lead his team there. But agree to disagree.

I don’t play “gotcha” I simply point out flaws in your argument. You mention how 26 yr old stars don’t go on the market (for good reason), but then advocate that the Knicks should do the same thing. Underrating our players to that degree is poor asset management and is in the same vein of those who think Frank will be an all-star. It’s delusional.

I never said Lavine would want to come to the Knicks. I said if he did want to come to NY (which he would have to if the Bulls agree to trade him) we would not have to give up the farm to get him.
NewKnicks
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,762
And1: 749
Joined: Feb 03, 2021

Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#58 » by NewKnicks » Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:07 am

BugginOut wrote:
NewKnicks wrote:
BugginOut wrote:You said earlier that we should trade Randle for GSW 14th pick straight up lol. If 26 yr all stars don’t just appear on the market why should we trade our 26 year old All-NBA player for even less value?


Because Lavine is a lot better than Randle. Also, he's a shooting guard, which is much more preferred than an iso PF.

If I'm the Knicks, I trade Randle because his value is at an all time high at the moment (depending on how teams rate him after that pathetic playoff performance). I don't think Randle is more than fringe all-star at best. OTOH, I think Lavine is just scratching the surface in terms of his future. I'm pretty sure most GM's would take Lavine over Randle as well. I'm sure you disagree with that, which is fine.

Is Randle on the market, btw? I don't think he is, is he? I wish he was on the market because I'd like to trade him. Also, Lavine is NOT on the market at all. That's pure speculation at best. Like I said, 26 year All-Stars don't show up on the market. Neither one of them are on the market.

I don't know why you try to play this 'gotcha' game with me. You have strange fascination with my posts.

It's really simple. I think Lavine is a way better player than Randle. So, I'd trade Randle for the 14th pick (if offered). If I'm the Bulls, I would never trade Lavine for just the 14th pick.

In the end you can pretend that Lavine only wants to come to the Knicks, and we'll get him for cheap. But you're going to be disappointed this time next year.


Lavine hasn’t had a season even close to what Randle just had. You can talk playoffs, but Lavine hasn’t even lead his team there. But agree to disagree.

I don’t play “gotcha” I simply point out flaws in your argument. You mention how 26 yr old stars don’t go on the market (for good reason), but then advocate that the Knicks should do the same thing. Underrating our players to that degree is poor asset management and is in the same vein of those who think Frank will be an all-star. It’s delusional.

I never said Lavine would want to come to the Knicks. I said if he did want to come to NY (which he would have to if the Bulls agree to trade him) we would not have to give up the farm to get him.


Thanks for your input. There is no 'flaw in my argument', dude. It's my opinion. I'm not arguing for anything. In the end, I'll be right and you'll be wrong. Unfortunately we have to wait a full year before you realize that.
Adelheid
Head Coach
Posts: 6,260
And1: 3,070
Joined: Jul 10, 2014
 

Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#59 » by Adelheid » Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:10 am

I do think the Knicks improved in stock (players' perception) when they reached 4th in east with just one guy towing the team, to coincide with a new FO regime and new coaching staff. Knicks went down hard in the 1st round but thats because the best player performed at a historic low plus most of the guys are playoff virgins.

They can attract some stars out there. Just need JD to keep his cool and not make any rash firings.
User avatar
aq_ua
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 18,513
And1: 4,747
Joined: May 08, 2002
Location: Optimistic but realistic

Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#60 » by aq_ua » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:12 am

I want to challenge this notion of Randle not being an effective #2 or #3 option. The implied definition of a #1 is that it's the player that dominates the ball and goes iso against the opposing defense, relegating all other options to spot up shooters. That does not need to be true, and it also doesn't negate Randle's effectiveness.

First, where did Randle's breakout year come from? It came from three places, 1) improved decision making and play making, 2) improved three point shooting, and 3) improved defense. As a #2 or #3 option, those are pretty nice characteristics to have, and frankly the playoffs have shown we need #2 and #3 options with those skills.

Secondly, the parallel I would draw is the 2013-14 LA Clippers and Blake Griffin. Griffin was the leading scorer and leading shot taker, but the #1 option and primary ballhandler was Chris Paul. Paul was also the guy that took over in the playoffs, effectively making Griffin a secondary option, particularly down the stretch. Those were also the most winning Clipper teams, something I am sure will resonate with Randle as he weighs his personal numbers against team record.

Finally, let's all remember the Randle discussions last offseason. I don't recall any debate around Randle's ability to remain a #1 option on this team. It was a one-sided conversation around how we could possibly salvage value for Randle by dumping him. Randle has shown he can grow into roles and continue to develop, even at this stage in his career. For sure he needs a talent upgrade around him, most likely a better player ahead of him in the pecking order. However, it is not a foregone conclusion that Randle can't be effective with such an upgrade in place. His averages might go down, but that could also be a good thing so defenses can't just plan around him.

Return to New York Knicks