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the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season

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Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#21 » by 3toheadmelo » Mon Jun 7, 2021 3:11 pm

Chanel Bomber wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:The best long-term bet for the Knicks is to trade for Zach Lavine.

His scoring efficiency is already elite, and he can do it both on and off the ball. He's improved every year since he entered the league, and he's still young, so it's reasonable to assume he's not done improving as a player.

Best short-term option is Chris Paul in free agency.

Either way, the Knicks have to bet on or invest in a difference-maker. Dame fits that description but the Knicks won't be able to build around him, especially since they'll have a short window knowing he's gonna be 31 this summer (unless Kawhi signs here which I don't see happening).

If the Bulls are losing miserably by the trade deadline next year, they are definitely gonna trade him. Now the bigger question is, do we wait for him to hit free agency or pull the trigger on a trade?

I think we have to trade for him. Isn't the difference in salary going to be significant depending on which team has his bird rights?

Problem is I like the potential of all our young players. But I'm starting to rethink my stance on Obi/IQ vs RJ because the game seems to come a lot easier to them, and at the end of the day efficiency is the name of the game. I still favor RJ, but I'm starting to question that.

For Lavine, I'll trade a few unprotected firsts, no question about it. I like our youth more than these picks.

They’re most likely gonna ask for one of our young pieces. We’ll just have to see how they’re playing next year, too early to tell which one we should give up. And yeah, I have always been skeptical about RJ’s potential even since he was in Duke. Hopefully he makes a leap next year
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Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#22 » by nykballa2k4 » Mon Jun 7, 2021 3:38 pm

aggo wrote:guys

Lonzo is not a difference maker if Randle is still the #1 option next season
Derozan cant shoot threes
Schroder isnt dependable enough


Offseason plan #1:

Trade everything sans RJ, Randle for Lillard
3FRPs, 3 swaps, and IQ for Lillard. If 4 picks are necessary, just do it.

plan #2:

Trade 3FRPs + IQ for Beal
sign Lowry 3/45

plan #3:

sign Fournier 4/65
sign Lowry 3/45
sign Ibaka 2/20


Lowry/Vildoza/IQ
Fournier/IQ
RJ
Randle/Obi/Ibaka
Mitch/Ibaka



why plan 3 works:

Lowry is still atleast an avg dribble drive & pnr point guard
Fournier does have some playmaking ability

meaning the ball is out of Randles hands alot adn we are not depending on him to create for others.

The mistake would be cashing in like we did for Marbury back in the day and putting a ceiling on the team. If we assume Randle is going to be what he was drafted to be "a somewhat more athletic Zach Randolph" which is to say allstar but not marquee superstar, and we hold out hope that Knox will be something better than Tim Thomas, Frank will be something better than Toney Douglas, and RJ will reach some degree of his potential perhaps as a #2 option during the peak of his career which is 3 years away.

The only player who effectively IS where we need him to be is Randle who made the allstar and has allstar qualities that should be fairly consistent. If we cash out on cap space and picks, even if we keep Mitch, Randle, RJ, we are basically saying "that's it" and the problem with that additionally would be the 3 different timelines as a superstar is going to be near-to-over 30, randle is mid-prime and RJ is pre-prime assuming he gets there.

I am banging the drum for either a deferment such as taking an asset on to obtain Kemba which could allow Boston to make a move for one of those big names or doing something similar in giving up a marginal asset for a low-level all-star compliment like CJ from portland just to keep the team ticking upward without putting us in a bad position.

The WORST thing we could do is without making any other moves, mortgaging our future for ONE older superstar. keep in mind that right now no stars are demanding out of places (yet) and without leverage, Knicks will be required to start any trade call with RJ, Obi, 3 FRP
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Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#23 » by ENYK » Mon Jun 7, 2021 3:47 pm

Chanel Bomber wrote:
Fury wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:The best long-term bet for the Knicks is to trade for Zach Lavine.

His scoring efficiency is already elite, and he can do it both on and off the ball. He's improved every year since he entered the league, and he's still young, so it's reasonable to assume he's not done improving as a player.

Best short-term option is Chris Paul in free agency.

Either way, the Knicks have to bet on or invest in a difference-maker. Dame fits that description but the Knicks won't be able to build around him, especially since they'll have a short window knowing he's gonna be 31 this summer (unless Kawhi signs here which I don't see happening).


Is Lavine going to be available? What would we give up?

Chicago screwed up by trading for Vuc. They are not making the playoffs with that team, so Lavine might be looking for a different situation. I don't know what it would take to bring him here, but I'd trade a few first for him. Chicago would probably want one of our young players, and that's the hard part imo. IQ would be the logical trade piece but I think he's special.


IQ, I think, is the real under-the-radar keeper of all of our youth... After watching what Trae did to us and is doing to Philly, it's pretty clear how important a quick guard who can shoot well off the dribble and get into the lane is.. He's not Trae, doesn't have the playmaking ability, but his skillset is perfect for the current NBA. I think if he got more play time and room to grow/develop he would've been in the ROY conversation.

If we can get great value by packaging RJ and picks, to get a top 4 pick in this year's draft or get a young star, I'd 100% do it.
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Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#24 » by bearadonisdna » Mon Jun 7, 2021 3:50 pm

Of those plans I like plan #2.
Get in another #1 scorer and a good point guard to run the offense.
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Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#25 » by Are We Ther Yet » Mon Jun 7, 2021 4:34 pm

Elfrid Payton sucks
:beer: RIP mags
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Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#26 » by BugginOut » Mon Jun 7, 2021 5:21 pm

3toheadmelo wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:If the Bulls are losing miserably by the trade deadline next year, they are definitely gonna trade him. Now the bigger question is, do we wait for him to hit free agency or pull the trigger on a trade?

I think we have to trade for him. Isn't the difference in salary going to be significant depending on which team has his bird rights?

Problem is I like the potential of all our young players. But I'm starting to rethink my stance on Obi/IQ vs RJ because the game seems to come a lot easier to them, and at the end of the day efficiency is the name of the game. I still favor RJ, but I'm starting to question that.

For Lavine, I'll trade a few unprotected firsts, no question about it. I like our youth more than these picks.

They’re most likely gonna ask for one of our young pieces. We’ll just have to see how they’re playing next year, too early to tell which one we should give up. And yeah, I have always been skeptical about RJ’s potential even since he was in Duke. Hopefully he makes a leap next year

Bulls would have no leverage if Lavine asks specifically to go to NY, especially if he is going to be an unrestricted free agent. It would be two picks maximum
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Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#27 » by 3toheadmelo » Mon Jun 7, 2021 5:28 pm

BugginOut wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:I think we have to trade for him. Isn't the difference in salary going to be significant depending on which team has his bird rights?

Problem is I like the potential of all our young players. But I'm starting to rethink my stance on Obi/IQ vs RJ because the game seems to come a lot easier to them, and at the end of the day efficiency is the name of the game. I still favor RJ, but I'm starting to question that.

For Lavine, I'll trade a few unprotected firsts, no question about it. I like our youth more than these picks.

They’re most likely gonna ask for one of our young pieces. We’ll just have to see how they’re playing next year, too early to tell which one we should give up. And yeah, I have always been skeptical about RJ’s potential even since he was in Duke. Hopefully he makes a leap next year

Bulls would have no leverage if Lavine asks specifically to go to NY, especially if he is going to be an unrestricted free agent. It would be two picks maximum

Well in that scenario yeah we wouldn’t have to give up that much
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SF: Tatum/Hart
PF: Adebayo/Tate
C: Ayton/Randle


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Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#28 » by ccvle » Mon Jun 7, 2021 5:35 pm

The mistake is people think Randle can be effective as a 2nd or 3rd option.
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Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#29 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Mon Jun 7, 2021 5:45 pm

I want more ball movement, and I want to see us actually utilize Mitch in the high screen. If you're intent on keeping Randle you need to reduce his playmaking and turn him into more of a go-quick attacking player, he cannot be allowed to run offense anymore and iso done the shotclock unless he has a great matchup. We need more playmaking not just at the 1, but at the 2 as well, the only way to beat a team with a small guard like the Hawks is to remove all the players you can hide him on. So, no more worthless 3 & D guys who can't attack a mismatch.
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Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#30 » by KnickMan » Mon Jun 7, 2021 6:49 pm

aggo wrote:guys

Lonzo is not a difference maker if Randle is still the #1 option next season
Derozan cant shoot threes
Schroder isnt dependable enough


Offseason plan #1:

Trade everything sans RJ, Randle for Lillard
3FRPs, 3 swaps, and IQ for Lillard. If 4 picks are necessary, just do it.

plan #2:

Trade 3FRPs + IQ for Beal
sign Lowry 3/45

plan #3:

sign Fournier 4/65
sign Lowry 3/45
sign Ibaka 2/20


Lowry/Vildoza/IQ
Fournier/IQ
RJ
Randle/Obi/Ibaka
Mitch/Ibaka



why plan 3 works:

Lowry is still atleast an avg dribble drive & pnr point guard
Fournier does have some playmaking ability

meaning the ball is out of Randles hands alot adn we are not depending on him to create for others.


Sorry but I hate this plan. Lowry is going to be 35 if isn't already.

You mention Derozan isn't a 3 point shooter; guess what he is though? A consistent 20 pt scorer from the midrange and going to the hoop. A solid defender, good team mate and would be the second best player on the team behind Randle and the difference is not that great. Next you add Lonzo Ball, who is a good three point shooter and would be the best passer/PG this team has had since Jason Kidd. Either package our draft picks to move up in the draft or stay put draft the best available players and depending on the situation, package one or two of them for a young vet or two. Or failing that, they add comp and depth to the roster.

We need to understand this is still a PROCESS. If can add Derozan and Ball to this roster with a Healthy Mitch,
and continued development of IQ and Obi (he was looking like a different player in the playoffs) plus one or two top drafted players, we should be a much better team.

A starting line up of
Mitch
Randle
RJ
Derozan
Ball

Bench
Rose
IQ
Obi
Noel
Burks/Bullock or another low cost FA
Rookie
Rookie
Gibson ?

I personally would be fine with that roster. The big issue will be Thibs; if he doesn't become more flexible in his rotations and subs and hire a offensive coach this team is going to have a hard time ever getting past the second round.
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Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#31 » by aggo » Tue Jun 8, 2021 12:04 am

Ghetto Gospel wrote:yeah.. but that plan 3 that you like still has randle being the #1 next season which you say is a mistake



NO.


I explained clearly why.


This team needs a PNR pg that can play 30mpg.

Rose is not that anymore because he cant play 30mpg with his mileage. Vs Atlanta you saw the difference between a team that could run the PNR and a team that was stuck in ISO.
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Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#32 » by aggo » Tue Jun 8, 2021 12:05 am

ny-n-md wrote:This is a vomit inducing idea. I don’t think we need to follow the formula that has ruined our future many times before by trading everything for a star. This leaves the roster thin and isn’t good enough to win with what remains. That last idea…just no please


what's more vomit inducing:

depending on randle as #1 again and being stuck in mediocrity

or shooting our shot?

Remember when the Nets traded all their picks to Boston everyone declared them dead for the next 10 years. Look again now and they were Able to trade 4 draft picks for Harden.
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Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#33 » by aggo » Tue Jun 8, 2021 12:08 am

bearadonisdna wrote:Of those plans I like plan #2.
Get in another #1 scorer and a good point guard to run the offense.




I do too.

In fact, I wouldnt be opposed to having Westbrook on the team (instead of Beal) either.


1 FRP + Knox for Westbrook
4/65 for Fournier



Westbrook
Fournier
RJ
Randle
Mitch


== solves nearly every offensive problem this team had.
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Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#34 » by BKlutch » Tue Jun 8, 2021 1:08 am

Chanel Bomber wrote:The best long-term bet for the Knicks is to trade for Zach Lavine.

His scoring efficiency is already elite, and he can do it both on and off the ball. He's improved every year since he entered the league, and he's still young, so it's reasonable to assume he's not done improving as a player.

Best short-term option is Chris Paul in free agency.

Either way, the Knicks have to bet on or invest in a difference-maker. Dame fits that description but the Knicks won't be able to build around him, especially since they'll have a short window knowing he's gonna be 31 this summer (unless Kawhi signs here which I don't see happening).

He will want 3 years — what will he be like at 39 years old? That's when the team should be getting a lot better. He will be fading. I'd love him for 1-2 years max.
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Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#35 » by ny-n-md » Tue Jun 8, 2021 1:48 am

aggo wrote:
ny-n-md wrote:This is a vomit inducing idea. I don’t think we need to follow the formula that has ruined our future many times before by trading everything for a star. This leaves the roster thin and isn’t good enough to win with what remains. That last idea…just no please


what's more vomit inducing:

depending on randle as #1 again and being stuck in mediocrity

or shooting our shot?

Remember when the Nets traded all their picks to Boston everyone declared them dead for the next 10 years. Look again now and they were Able to trade 4 draft picks for Harden.

That “shot” won’t be good enough to get it done. The Nets situation doesn’t always come around either. Be patient and build in a way where flexibility is maintained while developing draft picks while competing, unless some mega star lands in your lap. The window for the current championship super teams won’t be that long, hopefully. Just put yourself in place to compete when the window opens.
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Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#36 » by HarthorneWingo » Tue Jun 8, 2021 8:57 am

Randle just needs a PG other than Rose who he respects. Then Thibs has to construct an offensive scheme that doesn’t rely on Julius if the other team keys on him.

I think the problem is more about getting JR a 1b option. RJ’s not there yet.
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Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#37 » by thebuzzardman » Tue Jun 8, 2021 10:18 am

Just trade Randle while his value is at his highest. Giannis is at least twice the player Randle is and look what a team built around him is doing. Jack sh*t.
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Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#38 » by Davis18 » Tue Jun 8, 2021 10:46 am

BKlutch wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:The best long-term bet for the Knicks is to trade for Zach Lavine.

His scoring efficiency is already elite, and he can do it both on and off the ball. He's improved every year since he entered the league, and he's still young, so it's reasonable to assume he's not done improving as a player.

Best short-term option is Chris Paul in free agency.

Either way, the Knicks have to bet on or invest in a difference-maker. Dame fits that description but the Knicks won't be able to build around him, especially since they'll have a short window knowing he's gonna be 31 this summer (unless Kawhi signs here which I don't see happening).

He will want 3 years — what will he be like at 39 years old? That's when the team should be getting a lot better. He will be fading. I'd love him for 1-2 years max.


The key is getting one impact player via FA then we can move assets for cornerstone player.
So much better if one of youngsters grows into one.
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Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#39 » by robillionaire » Tue Jun 8, 2021 7:08 pm

I started to read this but I got to the word lillard and quit
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Re: the mistake: letting randle be the #1 into next season 

Post#40 » by BKlutch » Tue Jun 8, 2021 7:40 pm

Davis18 wrote:
BKlutch wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:The best long-term bet for the Knicks is to trade for Zach Lavine.

His scoring efficiency is already elite, and he can do it both on and off the ball. He's improved every year since he entered the league, and he's still young, so it's reasonable to assume he's not done improving as a player.

Best short-term option is Chris Paul in free agency.

Either way, the Knicks have to bet on or invest in a difference-maker. Dame fits that description but the Knicks won't be able to build around him, especially since they'll have a short window knowing he's gonna be 31 this summer (unless Kawhi signs here which I don't see happening).

He will want 3 years — what will he be like at 39 years old? That's when the team should be getting a lot better. He will be fading. I'd love him for 1-2 years max.


The key is getting one impact player via FA then we can move assets for cornerstone player.
So much better if one of youngsters grows into one.

It took the Knicks over 20 years to learn this. You did it much faster :lol:
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