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The uncomfortable "truth" about this season (Julius and RJ)

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Re: The uncomfortable "truth" about this season (Julius and RJ) 

Post#341 » by NewKnicks » Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:11 am

3toheadmelo wrote:
jvsimonetti0514 wrote:
Fury wrote:
Derozan did not have a much better handle. He could not really create on his own. He needed a PG to set him up. In fact, even though he was really athletic, he didn't have a great first step, which wasn't helped by his handle. His mid-range game was always developing until it became automatic a few years into the league, not his second year. So what you're saying isn't true. He wasn't a good halfcourt player and he couldn't create for himself or others.


https://bleacherreport.com/articles/183836-nba-draft-prospects-demar-derozan-usc

https://www.nbadraft.net/players/demar-derozan/

Looks like both of you are right. He was an terrible ball handler with a mid range shot according to these scouting reports from him in college. I know nbadraft.net is pretty trash now but they were pretty good 15 years ago.

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NBADraft.net is always good for a few laughs. :lol:
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Re: The uncomfortable "truth" about this season (Julius and RJ) 

Post#342 » by NewKnicks » Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:21 am

god shammgod wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
Oscirus wrote:Get centers with a belivable midrange game where they're not bringing their men into the paint and that wont be a problem.


I've seen RJ get stuffed by non centers, but yes, it would help.

Hopefully the FO realizes this and it's why they haven't talked contracts with Mitch. Oh, hi Shamm! :D


it's coming god damn it :lol:



Wow is that form bad. And I wonder how many takes it took to get him to hit 3 in a row om cam :lol:

That said, if Mitch actually does develop a shot out to 3, he's going to be a bad, bad man.
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Re: The uncomfortable "truth" about this season (Julius and RJ) 

Post#343 » by NewKnicks » Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:27 am

WajaBawl wrote:
DaGawd wrote:Trade RJ inna package for a top 5 pick.. profit


I honestly wouldn't be against it. thebuzzardman hit it right on the nail, the league caters to creative shot creators and wings that can create on the perimeter. RJ is a bully-ball type player who's managed to improve his 3-point shot, but nothing else really.

The fact that people fail to see that is pretty mind-boggling.


You wouldn't be opposed to it, but the teams picking 1-5 would.
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Re: The uncomfortable "truth" about this season (Julius and RJ) 

Post#344 » by Davis18 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:36 am

NewKnicks wrote:
WajaBawl wrote:
DaGawd wrote:Trade RJ inna package for a top 5 pick.. profit


I honestly wouldn't be against it. thebuzzardman hit it right on the nail, the league caters to creative shot creators and wings that can create on the perimeter. RJ is a bully-ball type player who's managed to improve his 3-point shot, but nothing else really.

The fact that people fail to see that is pretty mind-boggling.


You wouldn't be opposed to it, but the teams picking 1-5 would.



Might happen if that team is Toronto.
Maple mamba back to Canada.
Great marketing for them.
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Re: The uncomfortable "truth" about this season (Julius and RJ) 

Post#345 » by NewKnicks » Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:45 am

ENYK wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
ENYK wrote:
Exactly... but I think we could actually get some sort of return for Randle right now (not just peanuts). He s*** the bed in the playoffs but I'm sure some team with picks/a young player but on a win now timeline might bite (maybe the Warriors) to make him a complementary piece for a season.

He becomes untradeable if we extend him and he continues to revert to the mean of his career performance.



I don't think he'd have a big market, you'd need a team like the Wolves or Kings to take him, and people wouldn't want anything realistic back from those teams, like most here would think think we could ask for a top 5 pick back for him which isn't happening. He's more valuable to us than he is to other teams, and fans now have an emotional attachment to him.

Like you said though, if he has a down season we're ****. His entire game goes down the drain when he's not making the three, cause he can't force you to play up on him at that point. If he can't shoot in front of normal sized crowds we'd have held onto a lemon, the risk/reward on him is now pretty bad.


Randle alone doesn't do it... but packaged with picks and maybe one of the young guys (not IQ, please) might be able to get us into the top 5 or so... It all depends how these teams view this year's prospects. The best player on the board might be a PG, and they have a glut at that position (Kings)...

I just hope the FO is cold blooded enough to do the hard thing (from fan/media/other players' perception) and move on from Randle.


If Sacramento has a shot at drafting Cade or Suggs, there is no chance they pass. We're not getting into the top 4 this year under any scenario. No team is trading out of those spots with potential franchise players on the board. I guess the only option would be GS, but their front office is not stupid. You don't pass on one of those guys to take on a Julius Randle or RJ plus picks in the 20s. It's just not happening.
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Re: The uncomfortable "truth" about this season (Julius and RJ) 

Post#346 » by NewKnicks » Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:47 am

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
ENYK wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:

I don't think he'd have a big market, you'd need a team like the Wolves or Kings to take him, and people wouldn't want anything realistic back from those teams, like most here would think think we could ask for a top 5 pick back for him which isn't happening. He's more valuable to us than he is to other teams, and fans now have an emotional attachment to him.

Like you said though, if he has a down season we're ****. His entire game goes down the drain when he's not making the three, cause he can't force you to play up on him at that point. If he can't shoot in front of normal sized crowds we'd have held onto a lemon, the risk/reward on him is now pretty bad.


Randle alone doesn't do it... but packaged with picks and maybe one of the young guys (not IQ, please) might be able to get us into the top 5 or so... It all depends how these teams view this year's prospects. The best player on the board might be a PG, and they have a glut at that position (Kings)...

I just hope the FO is cold blooded enough to do the hard thing (from fan/media/other players' perception) and move on from Randle.



There's nothing we have that gets us into the top 5, all the teams drafting in those spots need the talent from the draft more than they need Randle. The goal should be getting out of Randle's contract more than anything else, he's not going to be worth whatever it is he's asking for. I'd take back Beasley and McDaniels at this point for him, there's just no value in a ball dominant, ball movement stopping player that isn't Luka, LeBron or Harden.


They won't be cold blooded, someone like Jerry West would have traded him at the deadline. If we sign him to a max we're done for the first half of this decade, it's that simple.


Beasley and McDaniels for Randle? Sign me up.
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Re: The uncomfortable "truth" about this season (Julius and RJ) 

Post#347 » by NewKnicks » Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:50 am

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
NYKat wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Pascal Siakam is an all-nba player, MIP and an all-star, the Raptors would trade him the first chance they get right now.

Wanting to throw the bag at someone after they had a historically bad playoff, after an outlier career year is a Knicks thing, it's based on emotional attachment and not logic. The logical thing to do is sell high on him since he's going to be a free agent, you know, like the Raps should have done with Pascal, or the Magic should have done with Vucevic.

R/R on Randle right now is poor, you'd be better off getting a bag of peanuts and keeping the caproom open than you would keeping him and locking him into a max or near max deal.


Siakam has never put up a full season like Julius though, but where they are similar, I believe, is them as legit number 2’s, Siakam has already proven it and Julius next to a number 1 would be better than this year.



See, this is where the numbers come up, Siakam when he made the all-star team averaged 23/7/3.5, he wasn't even among the top 30 players in the league for touches, he didn't even handle the ball the most on the Raptors. He scored and did things within the flow of an offense. What Julius did this year, and the numbers you're quoting are from someone who had the ball in his hands more than Lillard, Curry, Giannis, Tatum, Towns, Beal, LaVine, Embiid etc etc. He had the ball in his hands almost as much as Luka and LeBron.

You think that guy can be a number 2 option? He was basically the Russell Westbrook of PF, handle the ball a ton and post gaudy stats until the playoff exposal. I don't think you're understanding just how bad he was in the playoffs, everyone of our starters actually was over 105 offensive rating against the Hawks, except Julius who was at a putrid 84. Nah man, we gotta trade that or let him walk.


Ooh.. I like that one. Nice play, No Dope.
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Re: The uncomfortable "truth" about this season (Julius and RJ) 

Post#348 » by NewKnicks » Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:55 am

NYKat wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
NYKat wrote:
Siakam has never put up a full season like Julius though, but where they are similar, I believe, is them as legit number 2’s, Siakam has already proven it and Julius next to a number 1 would be better than this year.



See, this is where the numbers come up, Siakam when he made the all-star team averaged 23/7/3.5, he wasn't even among the top 30 players in the league for touches, he didn't even handle the ball the most on the Raptors. He scored and did things within the flow of an offense. What Julius did this year, and the numbers you're quoting are from someone who had the ball in his hands more than Lillard, Curry, Giannis, Tatum, Towns, Beal, LaVine, Embiid etc etc. He had the ball in his hands almost as much as Luka and LeBron.

You think that guy can be a number 2 option? He was basically the Russell Westbrook of PF, handle the ball a ton and post gaudy stats until the playoff exposal. I don't think you're understanding just how bad he was in the playoffs, everyone of our starters actually was over 105 offensive rating against the Hawks, except Julius who was at a putrid 84. Nah man, we gotta trade that or let him walk.


...And this is where the eye test comes up and becomes more important the analytics... look, it’s not quantifiable, but Julius performance in the playoffs was all mental, he was frazzled by the moment... The guy was passing up good shots (open threes, shots he normally takes) and taking bad shots and making unforced errors.

And if you look at Julius career he is unique in that he grows from his errors, year to year more than the average player. Randle is a stock, I would continue to buy on... but not as franchise leader but definitely a number 2, we’re really one piece away from contention.


I really don't get this 'one piece away' take either. Let's take the best possible example. KD. If KD was on this team with Randle and RJ we would be contending for the title? I don't think so. And I chose the BEST possible option. How about Booker? Embiid? Harden? Giannis? Kawhi? Dame? Pick one, and then tell me we'd be competing for a championship with this roster.
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Re: The uncomfortable "truth" about this season (Julius and RJ) 

Post#349 » by HarthorneWingo » Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:29 am

NewKnicks wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
ENYK wrote:
Randle alone doesn't do it... but packaged with picks and maybe one of the young guys (not IQ, please) might be able to get us into the top 5 or so... It all depends how these teams view this year's prospects. The best player on the board might be a PG, and they have a glut at that position (Kings)...

I just hope the FO is cold blooded enough to do the hard thing (from fan/media/other players' perception) and move on from Randle.



There's nothing we have that gets us into the top 5, all the teams drafting in those spots need the talent from the draft more than they need Randle. The goal should be getting out of Randle's contract more than anything else, he's not going to be worth whatever it is he's asking for. I'd take back Beasley and McDaniels at this point for him, there's just no value in a ball dominant, ball movement stopping player that isn't Luka, LeBron or Harden.


They won't be cold blooded, someone like Jerry West would have traded him at the deadline. If we sign him to a max we're done for the first half of this decade, it's that simple.


Michael Beasley for Randle? Sign me up.


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Re: The uncomfortable "truth" about this season (Julius and RJ) 

Post#350 » by NewKnicks » Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:10 am

HarthorneWingo wrote:
NewKnicks wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:

There's nothing we have that gets us into the top 5, all the teams drafting in those spots need the talent from the draft more than they need Randle. The goal should be getting out of Randle's contract more than anything else, he's not going to be worth whatever it is he's asking for. I'd take back Beasley and McDaniels at this point for him, there's just no value in a ball dominant, ball movement stopping player that isn't Luka, LeBron or Harden.


They won't be cold blooded, someone like Jerry West would have traded him at the deadline. If we sign him to a max we're done for the first half of this decade, it's that simple.


Michael Beasley for Randle? Sign me up.


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Haha. Obviously I meant Malik. It's late. I do miss Michael, tho.

That knee rubbing thing has to be one of the weirdest NBA moments caught on tape. :lol:
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Re: The uncomfortable "truth" about this season (Julius and RJ) 

Post#351 » by HarthorneWingo » Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:14 am

NewKnicks wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
NewKnicks wrote:
Michael Beasley for Randle? Sign me up.


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Haha. Obviously I meant Malik. It's late. I do miss Michael, tho. :lol:


:D I know you did. If you're going to lose games, you got a have at least one colorful character on your team. I, for one, will be forever grateful for the beatdown he put on Melo on his first return to the Garden with OKC. Especially since Greenie was still with us back then. I thoroughly enjoyed watching her eat crow. (I betcha that was a good wake-up call for Melo which - eventually - precipitated the evolution of his game. And, in all seriousness, I was happy to see an old man make the necessary adjustments to become a more team-oriented player. Of course, it never happens when the player is with US. :lol:

Beas was kind like Free Candy, except better.

Vernon Maxwell comes to mind. :lol: Maybe he was before your time.
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Re: The uncomfortable "truth" about this season (Julius and RJ) 

Post#352 » by BowlRips » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:59 pm

BugginOut wrote:Knicks fans never root for their own players. It’s one of the reasons no one wants to play here, our players don’t get love.

It happened to Pat, it happened to Melo and now it’s happening to Randle


and RJ at age 20!
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Re: The uncomfortable "truth" about this season (Julius and RJ) 

Post#353 » by thebuzzardman » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:17 pm

BowlRips wrote:
BugginOut wrote:Knicks fans never root for their own players. It’s one of the reasons no one wants to play here, our players don’t get love.

It happened to Pat, it happened to Melo and now it’s happening to Randle


and RJ at age 20!


Fanbase deserves kudos for being proactive :D
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Re: The uncomfortable "truth" about this season (Julius and RJ) 

Post#354 » by NYKat » Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:47 pm

NewKnicks wrote:
NYKat wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:

See, this is where the numbers come up, Siakam when he made the all-star team averaged 23/7/3.5, he wasn't even among the top 30 players in the league for touches, he didn't even handle the ball the most on the Raptors. He scored and did things within the flow of an offense. What Julius did this year, and the numbers you're quoting are from someone who had the ball in his hands more than Lillard, Curry, Giannis, Tatum, Towns, Beal, LaVine, Embiid etc etc. He had the ball in his hands almost as much as Luka and LeBron.

You think that guy can be a number 2 option? He was basically the Russell Westbrook of PF, handle the ball a ton and post gaudy stats until the playoff exposal. I don't think you're understanding just how bad he was in the playoffs, everyone of our starters actually was over 105 offensive rating against the Hawks, except Julius who was at a putrid 84. Nah man, we gotta trade that or let him walk.


...And this is where the eye test comes up and becomes more important the analytics... look, it’s not quantifiable, but Julius performance in the playoffs was all mental, he was frazzled by the moment... The guy was passing up good shots (open threes, shots he normally takes) and taking bad shots and making unforced errors.

And if you look at Julius career he is unique in that he grows from his errors, year to year more than the average player. Randle is a stock, I would continue to buy on... but not as franchise leader but definitely a number 2, we’re really one piece away from contention.


I really don't get this 'one piece away' take either. Let's take the best possible example. KD. If KD was on this team with Randle and RJ we would be contending for the title? I don't think so. And I chose the BEST possible option. How about Booker? Embiid? Harden? Giannis? Kawhi? Dame? Pick one, and then tell me we'd be competing for a championship with this roster.


I’m thinking more of a superstar wing, (Not KD) with a competent point guard and provided we didn’t gut the roster to acquire one...I think so

Booker, Harden, or Dame paired with Randle I think that puts us top 3 in the East
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Re: The uncomfortable "truth" about this season (Julius and RJ) 

Post#355 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:21 pm

NYKat wrote:
NewKnicks wrote:
NYKat wrote:
...And this is where the eye test comes up and becomes more important the analytics... look, it’s not quantifiable, but Julius performance in the playoffs was all mental, he was frazzled by the moment... The guy was passing up good shots (open threes, shots he normally takes) and taking bad shots and making unforced errors.

And if you look at Julius career he is unique in that he grows from his errors, year to year more than the average player. Randle is a stock, I would continue to buy on... but not as franchise leader but definitely a number 2, we’re really one piece away from contention.


I really don't get this 'one piece away' take either. Let's take the best possible example. KD. If KD was on this team with Randle and RJ we would be contending for the title? I don't think so. And I chose the BEST possible option. How about Booker? Embiid? Harden? Giannis? Kawhi? Dame? Pick one, and then tell me we'd be competing for a championship with this roster.


I’m thinking more of a superstar wing, (Not KD) with a competent point guard and provided we didn’t gut the roster to acquire one...I think so

Booker, Harden, or Dame paired with Randle I think that puts us top 3 in the East



That doesn't put us in the top 3, and the gap between the Sixers / Bucks / Nets group and the rest of the East is pretty big. You're not gonna be better than the Bucks with a player who plays the same position as Giannis but is worse, and guards who Holiday can defend. And you're also forgetting that the Pacers, Hornets, Bulls and Raptors are in the lottery, any of those teams winning the lottery or ending up in the top 5 of it is bad news for us.

Pairing anyone with Randle is a losing idea, he's not a 2, and he's on track to be paid like a 1. It's like Magic fans who were hoping they could pair someone with Vucevic.
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Re: The uncomfortable "truth" about this season (Julius and RJ) 

Post#356 » by Capn'O » Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:33 pm

He keeps promising to add an outside threat to his game but it doesn't come.
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Re: The uncomfortable "truth" about this season (Julius and RJ) 

Post#357 » by Oscirus » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:10 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
NYKat wrote:
NewKnicks wrote:
I really don't get this 'one piece away' take either. Let's take the best possible example. KD. If KD was on this team with Randle and RJ we would be contending for the title? I don't think so. And I chose the BEST possible option. How about Booker? Embiid? Harden? Giannis? Kawhi? Dame? Pick one, and then tell me we'd be competing for a championship with this roster.


I’m thinking more of a superstar wing, (Not KD) with a competent point guard and provided we didn’t gut the roster to acquire one...I think so

Booker, Harden, or Dame paired with Randle I think that puts us top 3 in the East



That doesn't put us in the top 3, and the gap between the Sixers / Bucks / Nets group and the rest of the East is pretty big. You're not gonna be better than the Bucks with a player who plays the same position as Giannis but is worse, and guards who Holiday can defend. And you're also forgetting that the Pacers, Hornets, Bulls and Raptors are in the lottery, any of those teams winning the lottery or ending up in the top 5 of it is bad news for us.

Pairing anyone with Randle is a losing idea, he's not a 2, and he's on track to be paid like a 1. It's like Magic fans who were hoping they could pair someone with Vucevic.

Im not sure that people realize how top heavy the east is. Barring injury or extreme improvements the best we can hope for with everything going right is top 4
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Re: The uncomfortable "truth" about this season (Julius and RJ) 

Post#358 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:09 pm

Oscirus wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
NYKat wrote:
I’m thinking more of a superstar wing, (Not KD) with a competent point guard and provided we didn’t gut the roster to acquire one...I think so

Booker, Harden, or Dame paired with Randle I think that puts us top 3 in the East



That doesn't put us in the top 3, and the gap between the Sixers / Bucks / Nets group and the rest of the East is pretty big. You're not gonna be better than the Bucks with a player who plays the same position as Giannis but is worse, and guards who Holiday can defend. And you're also forgetting that the Pacers, Hornets, Bulls and Raptors are in the lottery, any of those teams winning the lottery or ending up in the top 5 of it is bad news for us.

Pairing anyone with Randle is a losing idea, he's not a 2, and he's on track to be paid like a 1. It's like Magic fans who were hoping they could pair someone with Vucevic.

Im not sure that people realize how top heavy the east is. Barring injury or extreme improvements the best we can hope for with everything going right is top 4



We're seeing the difference between a superstar and what Randle is with how Embiid has the Hawks looking completely helpless to guard him.

People also disregard teams like the Hornets for some reason, they have more talent than us to begin with and they're adding more. They get even a halfway decent center and they could pass us up too.
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Re: The uncomfortable "truth" about this season (Julius and RJ) 

Post#359 » by god shammgod » Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:15 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Oscirus wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:

That doesn't put us in the top 3, and the gap between the Sixers / Bucks / Nets group and the rest of the East is pretty big. You're not gonna be better than the Bucks with a player who plays the same position as Giannis but is worse, and guards who Holiday can defend. And you're also forgetting that the Pacers, Hornets, Bulls and Raptors are in the lottery, any of those teams winning the lottery or ending up in the top 5 of it is bad news for us.

Pairing anyone with Randle is a losing idea, he's not a 2, and he's on track to be paid like a 1. It's like Magic fans who were hoping they could pair someone with Vucevic.

Im not sure that people realize how top heavy the east is. Barring injury or extreme improvements the best we can hope for with everything going right is top 4



We're seeing the difference between a superstar and what Randle is with how Embiid has the Hawks looking completely helpless to guard him.

People also disregard teams like the Hornets for some reason, they have more talent than us to begin with and they're adding more. They get even a halfway decent center and they could pass us up too.


just look at the playoffs, the nets are a step above the bucks who are a step above miami who are a step above us. that's too many steps to overcome.
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Re: The uncomfortable "truth" about this season (Julius and RJ) 

Post#360 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:21 pm

god shammgod wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Oscirus wrote:Im not sure that people realize how top heavy the east is. Barring injury or extreme improvements the best we can hope for with everything going right is top 4



We're seeing the difference between a superstar and what Randle is with how Embiid has the Hawks looking completely helpless to guard him.

People also disregard teams like the Hornets for some reason, they have more talent than us to begin with and they're adding more. They get even a halfway decent center and they could pass us up too.


just look at the playoffs, the nets are a step above the bucks who are a step above miami who are a step above us. that's too many steps to overcome.



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