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Offseason Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread Take 2

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Re: Offseason Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread Take 2 

Post#361 » by RHODEY » Fri Nov 12, 2021 2:30 am

One benefit to all this parity. We still in the race @ 7-5/ Philly lost and hopefully Miami will too..
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Re: Offseason Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread Take 2 

Post#362 » by spree8 » Fri Nov 12, 2021 1:49 pm

KnicksGod wrote:Something like Rose/Fournier, Burks and Randle for Simmons and a pick and a player.

McBride
Simmons - Grimes
RJ
Obi
Mitch (extreme diet)



I think they’d take Julius alone and run. I wouldn’t trade him straight up for Simmons tho, although it’s tempting because of his defense and playmaking. His shooting is a huge problem, and there’s no sign of it ever improving.
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Re: Offseason Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread Take 2 

Post#363 » by DaGawd » Fri Nov 12, 2021 1:58 pm

spree8 wrote:
KnicksGod wrote:Something like Rose/Fournier, Burks and Randle for Simmons and a pick and a player.

McBride
Simmons - Grimes
RJ
Obi
Mitch (extreme diet)



I think they’d take Julius alone and run. I wouldn’t trade him straight up for Simmons tho, although it’s tempting because of his defense and playmaking. His shooting is a huge problem, and there’s no sign of it ever improving.

This. Playing Simmons and Mitch at the same time would cause major spacing issues for us. Teams can just zone it up and pack the paint on us
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Re: Offseason Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread Take 2 

Post#364 » by moocow007 » Fri Nov 12, 2021 2:45 pm

spree8 wrote:
KnicksGod wrote:Something like Rose/Fournier, Burks and Randle for Simmons and a pick and a player.

McBride
Simmons - Grimes
RJ
Obi
Mitch (extreme diet)



I think they’d take Julius alone and run. I wouldn’t trade him straight up for Simmons tho, although it’s tempting because of his defense and playmaking. His shooting is a huge problem, and there’s no sign of it ever improving.


Yep. I would if I was Morey and the Knicks offered a Randle for Simmons swap. In a second.

From the Knicks standpoint?

Look...at the end of the day you still need to be able to score more points than the other team to win (I know, I know, damn it you're right Moo!!). Simmons is not even a no.2 option (heck in crunch time...which...kinda is where the Knicks want to be seeing lots of it's not hard to argue he's not even a no.3 option). You do this and you think seeing Randle try to carry the offensive load on a still limited talent team is brutal? Who would be the Knicks no.1 go to guy them? Certainly won't be Simmons (or we wouldn't even be talking about him). The Ghost of Christmas Past Kemba Walker? Rose on his last tank of gas? RJ Barrett? Evan Fournier? Obi? Quentin Grimes? Duece? Wait...let me guess...unleash IQ? Come on guys...

And with Simmons not being able to take criticism AT ALL and whatever other mental issues he may be facing (with expectations of a guy in his position) guys want him on the Knicks?!?!? The absolutely LAST place anyone would want him on (other than Knick haters and any other team that sees the Knicks as a possible challenge to wherever their team is looking to go) is the Knicks. The Knicks would be the absolute WORST situation for him among any other team in the NBA. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

And then we factor in how the Knicks front office would be viewed if they trade a guy that has basically embraced being a Knick, took less money to stay a Knick, is currently a fan favorite and face of the franchise AND that is not hard to argue better than the player they'd be trading him for?

So the Knicks front office would have to be absolutely NUTS to do this even straight up much less also include other assets.

PS: You have a player that is clearly not an no.1 option type player (proposed to go to a team that, especially after this move, would need an no.1 option more than any of the other 29 teams) that is not playing cause he can't apparently handle criticism and pressure owed 4 years $145 million.

And before anyone comes with the (overblown) "rebuild" angle to argue for Simmons. Simmons is only 1 year younger than Randle. And he'll be making about 1.5 times what Randle is making in each season for the rest of their respective contracts.

Realize this. The Knicks do this. Take their current no.1 option. A fan favorite. A guy that wants to stay in NY and be it's face. A guy that helped get them to the playoffs last season and who has revitalized this franchise with a guy like Simmons and Simmons will have a gigantic TARGET (of expectations) on his back. To be able to replace all of that the Knicks would have traded in the eye of the public AND MORE (cause otherwise why make the trade right? you trade to get better than what you gave). For Simmons? The guy that basically caved cause he was criticized for not shooting in the playoffs. How is this ever going to realistically work out for the Knicks?

Guys? Come on. We do this and we might as well buy Ben Simmons a new wardrobe of dresses from Dianne Von Firstenburg cause he's going to need it when the NY media and fanbase castrate him and turn him into a female.

Best situations for Simmons would be to a team where he'll have no pressure to do anything (like Houston or Detroit) or where he will have plenty of guys that are more talented than him and ballsier than him on the team (like Golden State or Chicago) or where there's enough turmoil and distractions elsewhere that him not doing what he wasn't doing in Philly won't matter and be noticed so much (like Sacramento or New Orleans).
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Re: Offseason Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread Take 2 

Post#365 » by moocow007 » Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:30 pm

The only way I'd take Ben Simmons as a Knick is if the Sixers buy him out (obviously not going to happen) or if they are willing to take a salary dump package consisting of Nerlens Noel, Alec Burks and whatever none talent attached contracts that would make this work to mitigate the clear and obvious risk that this could turn out to be an albatross of a disaster in NY (and that's also unlikely to ever happen with Morey). No way would I include any assets (Randle, RJ, Obi, draft picks, Rose, etc.) So no, I don't see any chance within reason he'll be a Knick. I'm all for taking a chance and eggs in one basket and all that, but that doesn't mean Ben Simmons is worth taking a chance on.

This is not about shooting (or just about shooting). It's about living up to the need, role and expectations and the impact of said contract to what this team will and won't be able to do. The Knicks need is a no.1 option. The role is someone that can carry the offense when it stalls and when the opposing teams ratchet up their defense (what happens when you play better teams and in the playoffs). The expectations is to be able to have that guy be the face of the franchise to carry them further into the playoffs. Their need that Simmons would have to fill. Why? Contract? Simmons is owed 4 years and $145 million on his contract. That's $37 million a year for the next 4 years (or roughly $10 million more a year than Randle will be owed). That Contract forces him to be the "superstar" or (better star) to replace Randle with that would push them further in the playoffs. To which, when you factor what happened in the playoffs with the Sixers (where he had problems being the no.3 option) and what is happening now in Philly with Simmons and not being able to handle criticism and pressure, this is much much much more than Simmons not being able to shoot.

He can't do any of those things the Knicks need most and his contract is going to put a bigger chokehold on what this team can or can't do. This is true for any other team that doesn't have the luxury of capspace, throwaway players, etc. that can actually be wiling to take a risk on Simmons as basically a REALLY REALLY expensive role player. I can guarantee you that the Celtics is not offering any of their top players or assets and they've been really the only team that has been reported being willing to take on Simmons. No Tatum, No Brown, No Robert Wililams, No Marcus Smart, etc. And you guys want to include Randle? Just because he's not Lebron James and can't carry this team beyond where they are at doesn't mean that the guy should be traded.

There seems to be this notion that if you can find someone that can pass and defend (even if you have to trade your current no.1 option for) that it somehow can make this team something serious come playoff time. Really not sure where that is coming from. You need talent to win. You need a bonafide superstar on the offensive side to win. All the great team work in the world isn't going to change that if your best offensive player is a tossup between a guy that may not even be a no.2 option on any other playoff team (RJ) or that just simply cannot be expected to do so (Rose). You can have the passing version of Magic Johnson and that still won't be enough if you don't have the big dog. You guys are trying to find a secret recipe that somehow no other front office has found? Let me put it in a different way. IF Ben Simmons was the type of impact guy for this team that you guys apparently feel then he'd also be the impact guy for A LOT of other teams and he'd no longer be in Philly OR the Sixers would have won the championship already.

There's a reason why the trade market for Simmons can be summarized by this right now:



As a sound minded GM you can't possibly not see 4 years and $145 million of current Ben Simmons as an absolute huge risk that, if you actually include any significant asset, can also not only be a job killer but a potential career killer.

If the Knicks want Simmons and for whatever unknown reason think they can turn him around and he can actually handle being in NY then you do what Danny Ainge is doing and you put on the salary dump offer and look to basically just keep ahead of Ainge in whatever little additions to make. Knicks have more draft picks to offer than Boston so you just need to be ahead of Boston so that in the unlikely case where Morey decides that he needs to get off his high horse (of expectations) and take the best offer available that it's yours.

It's like the skits about lions. You don't need to be the fastest gazelle on the planet, you just need to be faster than the next guy.
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Re: Offseason Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread Take 2 

Post#366 » by dukeknicksirish » Fri Nov 12, 2021 5:54 pm

I don't want to say it..... but would John Wall or Russ with 2 years left be worse than what we have?

Fournier / Walker / Knox and Charlotte protected 1st?

Wall (Russ) / Grimes / Barrett / Randle / Mitch 6.Rose 7.Toppin 8.IQ 9.Noel 10.Burks honeslty seems like a much more .... watchable team
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Re: Offseason Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread Take 2 

Post#367 » by moocow007 » Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:08 pm

dukeknicksirish wrote:I don't want to say it..... but would John Wall or Russ with 2 years left be worse than what we have?

Fournier / Walker / Knox and Charlotte protected 1st?

Wall (Russ) / Grimes / Barrett / Randle / Mitch 6.Rose 7.Toppin 8.IQ 9.Noel 10.Burks honeslty seems like a much more .... watchable team


I would definitely consider that.

If Walker is toast (which I would assume the Knicks coaching staff has a much better picture of than us) he's useless regardless of how $8 million per looks. Knox is basically just here for grins and giggles. That Charlotte protected 1st which likely won't ever materialize has very little value. It's then about Fournier (what he himself can do to push the Knicks over the top) and what one of those other 2 guys might be able to do. The Knicks will lose some cap space in year 2 but will gain it back in year 3 (when Fournier will still be on the cap but those other 2 not).

I haven't watched either guy play this season so hard to tell how toasted those 2 guys are (and both guys safe to say has some degree of toasting right now).
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Re: Offseason Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread Take 2 

Post#368 » by Knicksfan1992 » Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:23 pm

When you think you want 33 year old Westbrook, take 10 minutes and really think about it and then realize you're effing wrong lol
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Re: Offseason Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread Take 2 

Post#369 » by HarthorneWingo » Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:35 pm

RHODEY wrote:One benefit to all this parity. We still in the race @ 7-5/ Philly lost and hopefully Miami will too..


The problem with parity is that these teams will all want to stand pat at the trade deadline.
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Re: Offseason Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread Take 2 

Post#370 » by moocow007 » Fri Nov 12, 2021 7:13 pm

Knicksfan1992 wrote:When you think you want 33 year old Westbrook, take 10 minutes and really think about it and then realize you're effing wrong lol


What would they be losing that is better? Not saying that this is a no brainer. But what the OP is offering isn't exactly an earth shattering offer. The Knicks would actually be saving future cap space after next season.
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Re: Offseason Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread Take 2 

Post#371 » by Knicksfan1992 » Fri Nov 12, 2021 8:03 pm

moocow007 wrote:
Knicksfan1992 wrote:When you think you want 33 year old Westbrook, take 10 minutes and really think about it and then realize you're effing wrong lol


What would they be losing that is better? Not saying that this is a no brainer. But what the OP is offering isn't exactly an earth shattering offer. The Knicks would actually be saving future cap space after next season.


All those piece can be aggregated or moved in separate deals for other players who actually contribute to winning meaningful basketball games at this point or at least have the potential to. Westbrook is past it both athletically and in his style of play. He's actively hurt the Lakers down the stretch in games already this year. And honestly I'm not sure that Fournier isn't a more effective player than Russ at this stage :lol:

In your response you are even admitting that one of the better case scenarios is that the Knicks save cap down the line..I mean I get it I love a lot of things about Russ but he doesn't make sense for really anybody to commit the kind of cap you have to commit to him. He's only going to depreciate as an asset given what his game is predicated on and what his deficiencies are...
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Re: Offseason Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread Take 2 

Post#372 » by RHODEY » Fri Nov 12, 2021 8:31 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
RHODEY wrote:One benefit to all this parity. We still in the race @ 7-5/ Philly lost and hopefully Miami will too..


The problem with parity is that these teams will all want to stand pat at the trade deadline.


Yep true that...Thibs gotta do some coaching and the players got to do some soul searching....
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Re: Offseason Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread Take 2 

Post#373 » by mg » Sat Nov 13, 2021 3:14 pm

The Knicks best bet is to find a 2 way player. Dejounte Murray would make a ton of sense.
Would some sort of Obi+filler+picks package work for San Antonio if they are still hovering at the bottom of the standing in a few months?
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Re: Offseason Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread Take 2 

Post#374 » by spree2kawhi » Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:15 pm

moocow007 wrote:The only way I'd take Ben Simmons as a Knick is if the Sixers buy him out (obviously not going to happen) or if they are willing to take a salary dump package consisting of Nerlens Noel, Alec Burks and whatever none talent attached contracts that would make this work to mitigate the clear and obvious risk that this could turn out to be an albatross of a disaster in NY (and that's also unlikely to ever happen with Morey). No way would I include any assets (Randle, RJ, Obi, draft picks, Rose, etc.) So no, I don't see any chance within reason he'll be a Knick. I'm all for taking a chance and eggs in one basket and all that, but that doesn't mean Ben Simmons is worth taking a chance on.

This is not about shooting (or just about shooting). It's about living up to the need, role and expectations and the impact of said contract to what this team will and won't be able to do. The Knicks need is a no.1 option. The role is someone that can carry the offense when it stalls and when the opposing teams ratchet up their defense (what happens when you play better teams and in the playoffs). The expectations is to be able to have that guy be the face of the franchise to carry them further into the playoffs. Their need that Simmons would have to fill. Why? Contract? Simmons is owed 4 years and $145 million on his contract. That's $37 million a year for the next 4 years (or roughly $10 million more a year than Randle will be owed). That Contract forces him to be the "superstar" or (better star) to replace Randle with that would push them further in the playoffs. To which, when you factor what happened in the playoffs with the Sixers (where he had problems being the no.3 option) and what is happening now in Philly with Simmons and not being able to handle criticism and pressure, this is much much much more than Simmons not being able to shoot.

He can't do any of those things the Knicks need most and his contract is going to put a bigger chokehold on what this team can or can't do. This is true for any other team that doesn't have the luxury of capspace, throwaway players, etc. that can actually be wiling to take a risk on Simmons as basically a REALLY REALLY expensive role player. I can guarantee you that the Celtics is not offering any of their top players or assets and they've been really the only team that has been reported being willing to take on Simmons. No Tatum, No Brown, No Robert Wililams, No Marcus Smart, etc. And you guys want to include Randle? Just because he's not Lebron James and can't carry this team beyond where they are at doesn't mean that the guy should be traded.

There seems to be this notion that if you can find someone that can pass and defend (even if you have to trade your current no.1 option for) that it somehow can make this team something serious come playoff time. Really not sure where that is coming from. You need talent to win. You need a bonafide superstar on the offensive side to win. All the great team work in the world isn't going to change that if your best offensive player is a tossup between a guy that may not even be a no.2 option on any other playoff team (RJ) or that just simply cannot be expected to do so (Rose). You can have the passing version of Magic Johnson and that still won't be enough if you don't have the big dog. You guys are trying to find a secret recipe that somehow no other front office has found? Let me put it in a different way. IF Ben Simmons was the type of impact guy for this team that you guys apparently feel then he'd also be the impact guy for A LOT of other teams and he'd no longer be in Philly OR the Sixers would have won the championship already.

There's a reason why the trade market for Simmons can be summarized by this right now:



As a sound minded GM you can't possibly not see 4 years and $145 million of current Ben Simmons as an absolute huge risk that, if you actually include any significant asset, can also not only be a job killer but a potential career killer.

If the Knicks want Simmons and for whatever unknown reason think they can turn him around and he can actually handle being in NY then you do what Danny Ainge is doing and you put on the salary dump offer and look to basically just keep ahead of Ainge in whatever little additions to make. Knicks have more draft picks to offer than Boston so you just need to be ahead of Boston so that in the unlikely case where Morey decides that he needs to get off his high horse (of expectations) and take the best offer available that it's yours.

It's like the skits about lions. You don't need to be the fastest gazelle on the planet, you just need to be faster than the next guy.

Thank you for this. I’d go even further: Simmons wouldn’t improve most NBA teams. In part It’s his shooting, in part his contract and in part it’s his perplexingly arrogant crybaby attitude.
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Re: Offseason Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread Take 2 

Post#375 » by spree2kawhi » Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:16 pm

mg wrote:The Knicks best bet is to find a 2 way player. Dejounte Murray would make a ton of sense.
Would some sort of Obi+filler+picks package work for San Antonio if they are still hovering at the bottom of the standing in a few months?

I’d want half their team. Bring Lonnie and Bryn too.
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Re: Offseason Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread Take 2 

Post#376 » by dukeknicksirish » Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:19 pm

What would it take to make our team look like:

Murray
RJ
Grant
Randle
Mitch

?
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Re: Offseason Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread Take 2 

Post#377 » by spree2kawhi » Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:56 am

dukeknicksirish wrote:What would it take to make our team look like:

Murray
RJ
Grant
Randle
Mitch

?

I’m with you. Doesn’t even have to be Murray for me.
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Re: Offseason Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread Take 2 

Post#378 » by HarthorneWingo » Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:08 am

spree2kawhi wrote:
mg wrote:The Knicks best bet is to find a 2 way player. Dejounte Murray would make a ton of sense.
Would some sort of Obi+filler+picks package work for San Antonio if they are still hovering at the bottom of the standing in a few months?

I’d want half their team. Bring Lonnie and Bryn too.


We can give them RJ, Grimes, and picks. Let's keep Obi. We'll need him for when we trade Wandle.
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Re: Offseason Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread Take 2 

Post#379 » by TBri1974 » Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:40 pm

dukeknicksirish wrote:What would it take to make our team look like:

Murray
RJ
Grant
Randle
Mitch

?


I would be down with

Murray
RJ
Grant
Randle
Noel

w/Obi, Quick, Rose and Gibson off the bench....

But are Mitch and picks enough to get Grant and Murray? If not, would you give up Obi for Grant and IQ for Murray?
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Re: Offseason Trades and Transactions Ideas Thread Take 2 

Post#380 » by HarthorneWingo » Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:12 pm

TBri1974 wrote:
dukeknicksirish wrote:What would it take to make our team look like:

Murray
RJ
Grant
Randle
Mitch

?


I would be down with

Murray
RJ
Grant
Randle
Noel

w/Obi, Quick, Rose and Gibson off the bench....

But are Mitch and picks enough to get Grant and Murray? If not, would you give up Obi for Grant and IQ for Murray?


You're going to have to give up a lot more than that.

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