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What a Difference a Year Makes - Backcourt Edition

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Re: What a Difference a Year Makes - Backcourt Edition 

Post#41 » by movingon » Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:04 am

RHODEY wrote:Average?...no way. Rose alone kept us in half the playoff games versus the Hawks, You subtract Payton and Bullock and add Fournier, and KEmba ..Quickley a year wiser and Duece? Way above average.


Fournier and RJ are average starters in this league, which is no knock on them.
Kemba could be above average, but he could also be below average, it all depends on what happens with health.
Our bench is above average with Rose and Burks, and possibly IQ, if he continues to progress.

I would rank our bench as one of the better ones in the league.
On paper the starters are solid, but not spectacular, but there's room for surprises in both directions.
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Re: What a Difference a Year Makes - Backcourt Edition 

Post#42 » by Chanel Bomber » Sun Aug 29, 2021 11:09 am

movingon wrote:
RHODEY wrote:Average?...no way. Rose alone kept us in half the playoff games versus the Hawks, You subtract Payton and Bullock and add Fournier, and KEmba ..Quickley a year wiser and Duece? Way above average.


Fournier and RJ are average starters in this league, which is no knock on them.
Kemba could be above average, but he could also be below average, it all depends on what happens with health.
Our bench is above average with Rose and Burks, and possibly IQ, if he continues to progress.

I would rank our bench as one of the better ones in the league.
On paper the starters are solid, but not spectacular, but there's room for surprises in both directions.

The individual net ratings from last season don't lie.

Our starting five was about average.

Our bench was dominant, one of the best in the league.

The bench units were the difference-makers last year.
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Re: What a Difference a Year Makes - Backcourt Edition 

Post#43 » by Clyde_Style » Sun Aug 29, 2021 12:25 pm

K-DOT wrote:I think we need to pump the brakes on the whole "one of the best backcourts in the NBA" thing

When healthy, I'd say we're pretty good. Rose and Kemba are both good PGs, whoever you choose between RJ and Fournier to be the "SG" is solid for a starter, and Quick/Burks are good backups

I'd put the backcourt rotation as around average, because while we might have more depth, we don't have that same star power (unless Kemba returns to form, then it's a different story, but that's not super likely) the top teams have, and time and time again, it's proven that star power is more important than depth, though good depth does help

Also think it's a touch early to proclaim Rose&co as the saviors of the franchise, we had one good season which relied on a lot of guys overperforming, and now we've paid them to overperform. Overall, I can't think of any major misses off the top of my head, but we should wait and see if they've built a sustainable roster and can make the moves to get us into contention before crowning them. I think they most certainly can, but I'm gonna wait and see.


Agreed. We are now a competitive team with depth without having anything close to one of the best starting backcourts yet.

What I do like VERY MUCH is we’re finally stocking the pipeline with PG talent so that we at least always have some depth at the position with the upside of someone breaking out. Joku might be good someday, but McBride really has a shot at making some noise even if he has to wait his turn.

But if none of the young PGs emerge as big time guys at least they can be backups for a franchise that had 3rd string players starting at PG for most of this century.

For this, I give the FO a big thumbs up
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Re: What a Difference a Year Makes - Backcourt Edition 

Post#44 » by Clyde_Style » Sun Aug 29, 2021 12:28 pm

-YogiBiz- wrote:
N Y K wrote:would nyk-mentality have a back up made since 2006 though? that would be impressive


It'd explain why he was so aggressive he had depth.


My backup handle is BallSac_Style
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Re: What a Difference a Year Makes - Backcourt Edition 

Post#45 » by thebuzzardman » Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:37 pm

I don't know where to put them in the NBA, and yeah, having that one great player is better etc etc...I guess. I'm just going to enjoy the fact that the Knicks are going to be able to put out 48 minutes of quality point guard play per game, in the games where Rose and Kemba are playing.

Are both guys their peak version? No. Will they need rest and/or get hurt? Sure. But again, I'm just going to enjoy the fact that these are quality, actually exciting guards to watch play.

The guard/wing situation is good too. RJ/Fournier/Burks/IQ - they are actually all levels of good/decent.

And while unproven as of yet, there may be guard/wing depth that doesn't specifically suck in Grimes/McBride and Vildoza.

Ok. That's enough optimism.
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Re: What a Difference a Year Makes - Backcourt Edition 

Post#46 » by thebuzzardman » Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:41 pm

So, what's the opinion on Rose or Kemba starting?

Rose I think is best limited to no more than 24 mpg, which, combined with his chemistry with IQ, might make me think he'll be the bench guard.

On the other hand, if it's a given that Kemba needs to rest on back to backs and is more inclined to miss games due to injury than Rose, then maybe Rose is the starter, where at least his 24 mpg can be accounted for and rotations can be set, and then Kemba can microwave off the bench when he's available, and when he's not, Knicks will proceed with whatever options Thibs likes best emerging from camp, whether it be trying IQ/Burks to handle/initiate in the 2nd unit, or McBride gets a shot, or whatever.

I think Rose starts for the 2nd paragraph reason
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Re: What a Difference a Year Makes - Backcourt Edition 

Post#47 » by RHODEY » Sun Aug 29, 2021 3:56 pm

movingon wrote:
RHODEY wrote:Average?...no way. Rose alone kept us in half the playoff games versus the Hawks, You subtract Payton and Bullock and add Fournier, and KEmba ..Quickley a year wiser and Duece? Way above average.


Fournier and RJ are average starters in this league, which is no knock on them.
Kemba could be above average, but he could also be below average, it all depends on what happens with health.
Our bench is above average with Rose and Burks, and possibly IQ, if he continues to progress.

I would rank our bench as one of the better ones in the league.
On paper the starters are solid, but not spectacular, but there's room for surprises in both directions.


Solid is a step up from average in my book. You don't carry your tea into the playoffs as the 2nd best player by simply being average...
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Re: What a Difference a Year Makes - Backcourt Edition 

Post#48 » by robillionaire » Sun Aug 29, 2021 4:08 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:So, what's the opinion on Rose or Kemba starting?

Rose I think is best limited to no more than 24 mpg, which, combined with his chemistry with IQ, might make me think he'll be the bench guard.

On the other hand, if it's a given that Kemba needs to rest on back to backs and is more inclined to miss games due to injury than Rose, then maybe Rose is the starter, where at least his 24 mpg can be accounted for and rotations can be set, and then Kemba can microwave off the bench when he's available, and when he's not, Knicks will proceed with whatever options Thibs likes best emerging from camp, whether it be trying IQ/Burks to handle/initiate in the 2nd unit, or McBride gets a shot, or whatever.

I think Rose starts for the 2nd paragraph reason


Don't agree for the simple fact that Rose was great off the bench and in the running for 6moy but didn't look as impressive as a starter while Kemba when healthy is always a starter
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Re: What a Difference a Year Makes - Backcourt Edition 

Post#49 » by robillionaire » Sun Aug 29, 2021 4:14 pm

I also think it's highly possible that Kemba plays in more games than Rose does, go look at how many games a season rose has played in since his first 3 years in the league. 39, 0, 10, 51, 66, 64, 25, 51, 50, 50, and a lot of that is limited minutes off the bench. Rose hasn't been a starter since his first stint with the Knicks. He's not going to be able to survive as a full time starter and he needs to take at least a month off every year
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Re: What a Difference a Year Makes - Backcourt Edition 

Post#50 » by The Lamma » Sun Aug 29, 2021 4:15 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:So, what's the opinion on Rose or Kemba starting?

Rose I think is best limited to no more than 24 mpg, which, combined with his chemistry with IQ, might make me think he'll be the bench guard.

On the other hand, if it's a given that Kemba needs to rest on back to backs and is more inclined to miss games due to injury than Rose, then maybe Rose is the starter, where at least his 24 mpg can be accounted for and rotations can be set, and then Kemba can microwave off the bench when he's available, and when he's not, Knicks will proceed with whatever options Thibs likes best emerging from camp, whether it be trying IQ/Burks to handle/initiate in the 2nd unit, or McBride gets a shot, or whatever.

I think Rose starts for the 2nd paragraph reason


Rose off the bench worked way too well last year to warrant a change imo. As Chanel pointed out, it was our bench last year that was our biggest advantage, with Rose as the best scorer of said group. We shouldn't mess with that formula.

That group had nice chemistry, and we'll be rolling out mainly the same bench in all likelihood with him, IQ, Burks, and Obi at the 1 through 4. So we get continuity with that also.

It's nice we finally have pieces to build off of here. No delusions of a chip yet, but we're making strides.
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Re: What a Difference a Year Makes - Backcourt Edition 

Post#51 » by movingon » Sun Aug 29, 2021 5:43 pm

RHODEY wrote:Solid is a step up from average in my book. You don't carry your tea into the playoffs as the 2nd best player by simply being average...


Well, 16 out of 30 teams make the playoffs. Until we get past the first round we're solidly average.
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Re: What a Difference a Year Makes - Backcourt Edition 

Post#52 » by thebuzzardman » Sun Aug 29, 2021 5:52 pm

robillionaire wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:So, what's the opinion on Rose or Kemba starting?

Rose I think is best limited to no more than 24 mpg, which, combined with his chemistry with IQ, might make me think he'll be the bench guard.

On the other hand, if it's a given that Kemba needs to rest on back to backs and is more inclined to miss games due to injury than Rose, then maybe Rose is the starter, where at least his 24 mpg can be accounted for and rotations can be set, and then Kemba can microwave off the bench when he's available, and when he's not, Knicks will proceed with whatever options Thibs likes best emerging from camp, whether it be trying IQ/Burks to handle/initiate in the 2nd unit, or McBride gets a shot, or whatever.

I think Rose starts for the 2nd paragraph reason


Don't agree for the simple fact that Rose was great off the bench and in the running for 6moy but didn't look as impressive as a starter while Kemba when healthy is always a starter


I've thought that exact thing and allude to it in the post.

Isn't it a risk starting a guy who might miss 20 games? Then you are promoting the bench guy anyway.
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Re: What a Difference a Year Makes - Backcourt Edition 

Post#53 » by RHODEY » Sun Aug 29, 2021 6:17 pm

movingon wrote:
RHODEY wrote:Solid is a step up from average in my book. You don't carry your tea into the playoffs as the 2nd best player by simply being average...


Well, 16 out of 30 teams make the playoffs. Until we get past the first round we're solidly average.


Only 8 make the playoffs as a 4th seed or better. 8 out of 30 isn't solidly average.
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Re: What a Difference a Year Makes - Backcourt Edition 

Post#54 » by robillionaire » Sun Aug 29, 2021 6:52 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:
robillionaire wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:So, what's the opinion on Rose or Kemba starting?

Rose I think is best limited to no more than 24 mpg, which, combined with his chemistry with IQ, might make me think he'll be the bench guard.

On the other hand, if it's a given that Kemba needs to rest on back to backs and is more inclined to miss games due to injury than Rose, then maybe Rose is the starter, where at least his 24 mpg can be accounted for and rotations can be set, and then Kemba can microwave off the bench when he's available, and when he's not, Knicks will proceed with whatever options Thibs likes best emerging from camp, whether it be trying IQ/Burks to handle/initiate in the 2nd unit, or McBride gets a shot, or whatever.

I think Rose starts for the 2nd paragraph reason


Don't agree for the simple fact that Rose was great off the bench and in the running for 6moy but didn't look as impressive as a starter while Kemba when healthy is always a starter


I've thought that exact thing and allude to it in the post.

Isn't it a risk starting a guy who might miss 20 games? Then you are promoting the bench guy anyway.


That risk applies to both of them though.

Personally I would start Kemba with Rose off the bench, if Kemba got hurt or had to miss games I would start IQ or McBride and try to keep Rose in the same bench role with the same minutes. I would not promote him to starter. If Rose got hurt I would also replace him with IQ or McBride. And if they both get hurt, well, it's IQ and McBride. Who knows what thibs is thinking though.

Personally I'm optimistic Kemba will be healthier than most people think, just a gut feeling idk if it will come to pass. I think he's going to exceed a lot of the low expectations
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Re: What a Difference a Year Makes - Backcourt Edition 

Post#55 » by movingon » Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:13 pm

RHODEY wrote:
movingon wrote:
RHODEY wrote:Solid is a step up from average in my book. You don't carry your tea into the playoffs as the 2nd best player by simply being average...


Well, 16 out of 30 teams make the playoffs. Until we get past the first round we're solidly average.


Only 8 make the playoffs as a 4th seed or better. 8 out of 30 isn't solidly average.


Well, if the regular season standings were such a good indicator, it would have been us that sent the Hawks packing in 5 games.
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Re: What a Difference a Year Makes - Backcourt Edition 

Post#56 » by RHODEY » Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:09 pm

movingon wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
movingon wrote:
Well, 16 out of 30 teams make the playoffs. Until we get past the first round we're solidly average.


Only 8 make the playoffs as a 4th seed or better. 8 out of 30 isn't solidly average.


Well, if the regular season standings were such a good indicator, it would have been us that sent the Hawks packing in 5 games.


Not really when you consider 4/5 matchup is usually close and we were missing our defensive anchor.
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Re: What a Difference a Year Makes - Backcourt Edition 

Post#57 » by -YogiBiz- » Mon Aug 30, 2021 11:16 am

thebuzzardman wrote:So, what's the opinion on Rose or Kemba starting?

Rose I think is best limited to no more than 24 mpg, which, combined with his chemistry with IQ, might make me think he'll be the bench guard.

On the other hand, if it's a given that Kemba needs to rest on back to backs and is more inclined to miss games due to injury than Rose, then maybe Rose is the starter, where at least his 24 mpg can be accounted for and rotations can be set, and then Kemba can microwave off the bench when he's available, and when he's not, Knicks will proceed with whatever options Thibs likes best emerging from camp, whether it be trying IQ/Burks to handle/initiate in the 2nd unit, or McBride gets a shot, or whatever.

I think Rose starts for the 2nd paragraph reason


I seriously think McBride gets a lot of burn this season. He looked too good not to.
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Re: What a Difference a Year Makes - Backcourt Edition 

Post#58 » by Clyde_Style » Mon Aug 30, 2021 11:32 am

-YogiBiz- wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:So, what's the opinion on Rose or Kemba starting?

Rose I think is best limited to no more than 24 mpg, which, combined with his chemistry with IQ, might make me think he'll be the bench guard.

On the other hand, if it's a given that Kemba needs to rest on back to backs and is more inclined to miss games due to injury than Rose, then maybe Rose is the starter, where at least his 24 mpg can be accounted for and rotations can be set, and then Kemba can microwave off the bench when he's available, and when he's not, Knicks will proceed with whatever options Thibs likes best emerging from camp, whether it be trying IQ/Burks to handle/initiate in the 2nd unit, or McBride gets a shot, or whatever.

I think Rose starts for the 2nd paragraph reason


I seriously think McBride gets a lot of burn this season. He looked too good not to.


McBride will play. I think he is going to be really good and has the tenacity to push through obstacles and grab himself some time when either Rose or Kemba need time off.

I’m relishing the thought of McBride in the backcourt and Mitch under the basket anchoring a blistering defense.
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Re: What a Difference a Year Makes - Backcourt Edition 

Post#59 » by Celo » Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:33 pm

Clyde_Style wrote:I seriously think McBride gets a lot of burn this season. He looked too good not to.


McBride will play. I think he is going to be really good and has the tenacity to push through obstacles and grab himself some time when either Rose or Kemba need time off.

I’m relishing the thought of McBride in the backcourt and Mitch under the basket anchoring a blistering defense.[/quote]

To me, at least for now, Mcbride's a player who needs to play next to Kemba or Rose, not when one of them is missing time. Why? Because he doesn't offer enough playmaking and/or rim pressure, so he wouldn't be able to play to his strengths. Only realistic way would be if RJ takes the next step in that regard, that would make McBride a reliable option as PG on paper at least.

I've said it before, to me Rookie McBride will be a situational player. Crucial defensive possessions, if we want to exhaust the opposing PG because Deuce is hounding him for 94 feet or whatever, you name it.

But there's nothing wrong with that. Give him as much run in the G-League as possible. Make him have the ball in his hands, set a threshold regarding drives to hoop he needs to reach on a game to game basis and see, if there's some untapped potential. Because right now, we have to many of those guys who aren't primary ballhandlers and therefore playing them together may not be a good idea. For example the sl backcourt of IQ and Deuce, I don't see them sharing the floor together at all this season except for garbage time maybe.
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Re: What a Difference a Year Makes - Backcourt Edition 

Post#60 » by Dave DaButcher » Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:42 pm

Read on Twitter
?s=21

RJ starting to get some recognition.

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