ImageImageImageImageImage

Will Kemba and Fournier add wins?

Moderators: NoLayupRule, Deeeez Knicks, GONYK, K-DOT, Capn'O, mrpoetryNmotion, Jeff Van Gully, j4remi, King of Canada, mpharris36, Thugger HBC

Will Kemba and Fournier will add a lot to our squad

No they wont add much to our winning percentage, we'll be about the same.
15
20%
No they will actually make us worse.
3
4%
Yes they will make us a little better with our winning percentage.
40
53%
Yes they will make us a lot better with our winning percentage
17
23%
 
Total votes: 75

User avatar
Clyde_Style
RealGM
Posts: 47,272
And1: 37,378
Joined: Jul 12, 2009
Location: JEWISH LASER CLINIC
Contact:
 

Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#61 » by Clyde_Style » Sun Sep 5, 2021 2:48 pm

Chanel Bomber wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:The biggest reason the Hawks beat us down was the fact that they were able to double off Noel and Taj and take away Randle's left hand/drives to the rim. The Knicks didn't address that in the offseason, unless Obi starts getting minutes at the 5. We should be better prepared for this match-up with more shot creators on the team, I agree, but we still have some of the same issues (the biggest) that cost us in that series. The defense of our starting five got worse too.

Fournier is an average starter at the 2.

Off the top of my head, Beal, Harden, Lavine, Booker, Mitchell, Middleton, McCollum, SGA, Klay, Bogdanovic are all better than him. Fournier is in the next class with Hardaway, Trent, Hield, Sexton, Robinson and a couple others in my opinion. I guess you can say he's top 15 depending on where you rank him in that sub-group.

We don't know what Kemba's gonna look like. We know his health is compromised. I highly doubt he will be able to average more than 20 minutes per game, let alone play all 82 games. There's a reason why Boston let him go so easily, despite them wanting to be competitive. It's one thing to recognize that he's a bargain on his new contract, it's another to view him as a 19 ppg scorer imo.

I don't expect McBride or Grimes to be NBA-ready and contribute in their first year. Smart is a generational perimeter defender, it's entirely unfair to expect Deuce to ever reach that level, let alone early in his career. We've been through it with Frank.

But I get it. You're optimistic about this team. I'm pessimistic about this team. That's fine. I just think we ought to be careful with our expectations because when high expectations aren't matched, then we tend to get emotional and look for scapegoats. Comparing this Knicks team to the 2014-15 Warriors is setting everybody up to fail.


Yeah gotta disagree.I think the biggest reason the Hawks beat us down was the lack of shot creating scoring options we had compared to them. JR and Rose were pretty much burnt from having to carry so much of the offensive load,. Noel had to start because no Mitch - whowould have guarded everyone much better, We fixed those problems IMO.

Regarding Fournier., I put him on the same level as Bogdan Bogdanović. So if you are going to include Bogdan in that top tier you can probably also put Evan there. But yes I'm optimistic and I believe we have solid reasons to be that way.

Our defense didn't suffer that much against Atlanta if we look at the numbers, although it felt like every Trae PNR led to a bucket.

The problem was that our centers couldn't make a play with the ball in their hands. That enabled McMillan to have Randle's primary defender take away his left hand, and funnel Randle to the help (Capela). We did not address that issue in the offseason. Mitch cannot make a play either, he's a rim finisher.

More shot creation helps, but doesn't address the biggest issue, which was Randle being taken away because of our centers' lack of versatility. If we replay the series now, the Hawks could still double Randle and stay home on our perimeter players. Fournier is not dominant enough as an ISO scorer to tilt the balance in our favor.

Which is why Obi needs to see minutes at the 5 and be developed as a 4/5 rather than strictly a 4 imo. More versatility, better spacing, more playmaking, more speed.


Some call the guy who set the record for FG% a rim runner, but there is a massive difference between him and Noel whom you can’t count on not to bobble the ball and lose the possession. You get the ball to Mitch and roughly two-thirds of the time he is going to score. And Mitch’s ability to receive the ball in motion is vastly superior to Noel’s. He can corral balls in the air that no one else around him can and then convert it which gives our offense an efficiency boost, especially on second shots.

I find the way people view Mitch to be way too rigid. His impact on the game is magnitudes above Noel. If he stays healthy we’ll be a threat to win any playoff series.

And as far as spacing and teams collapsing on Randle, Mitch creates MORE of a requirement for defenses to hedge the basket and back off from Randle than anyone else on the team. The fact that he’s a high percentage threat at the rim spreads our offense, does not compress it like I see so many (IMO) illogically stating that Mitch’s lack of offensive range ruins our spacing. Au contraire, it defines our threat down low with such specificity that teams can’t leave Mitch alone to double someone else or else he will score at will if his teammates recognize him.

Mitch is a major weapon on offense when surrounded by a roster proficient at shooting the three which pulls defenders out of zones and prevents them from packing the paint which ultimately makes Mitch even more viable as an offensive threat.

If Mitch stays healthy we will be a significantly better team.
ImageImageImageImageImageImageImage
User avatar
BKlutch
RealGM
Posts: 12,826
And1: 9,102
Joined: Jan 11, 2015
Location: Jamaica, NY
     

Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#62 » by BKlutch » Sun Sep 5, 2021 4:40 pm

Clyde_Style wrote:
RHODEY wrote:I predict that we get 53 wins ...


Much improved offense
Much improved depth -
Familiarity - we resigned a bunch of players Kemba and Evan already have good chemistry
Elite Defense -This is what we were . Now with a bulked up motivated Mitch , backed by Noel - No other team has that level of rim protection for 48 minutes What we lose with Kemba ...Mitch and Noel will cover...Fourneir is not a bad defender to begin with , Thibs will make him above average IMO

Duece - will be special IMO and he will show this. Grimes could too
IQ OBI, RJ wil all be even better..
Throw in a rested Rose and Burks who can easily explode for 20 points on a given night.


I don't think we'll have to worry about anybody because this team doesn't worry about anybody. We aint scared...but let me tell you we will be a problem for most teams.


It really comes down to coaching now. There are no dominant teams in the NBA these days so any team can break through if they click and have enough talent. We have that, so it largely comes down to health and coaching for us, not what other teams are doing respectively

I feel our supporting staff behind Thibs may be among the best in the league now seeing how decisively most of our roster leveled up last season. So for me it comes down to Thibs and whether he removes his butt plug and goes with the flow a little more. This is a roster that demands playing more than 8 or 9 guys a night so I want to see a more fluid rotation that responds to the situation and plays the hot hand

Whatever happened with Payton last season was the primary black mark on Thib’s season. There was little reason for him to be playing as much as he did. Now there will be no excuse as the depth is there


I think that is really interesting. A certain team in Brooklyn is gifted with the 3 best mercenaries in the league. Arguably the best SF and two of the best guards in the NBA fell from the heavens into the laps of the Brooklyners, and still, there is no dominant team in the NBA. The moral of this story is that character and team chemistry still count in the era of Big 3 R US rentals.
.
.
.
Year 1: From 21 to 41 wins!
Year 2: Add Evan, Kemba, Mitch, and the draft picks!
User avatar
RHODEY
RealGM
Posts: 13,453
And1: 8,527
Joined: May 18, 2007
Location: Straight out of a comic book

Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#63 » by RHODEY » Sun Sep 5, 2021 5:30 pm

Chanel Bomber wrote:
Our defense didn't suffer that much against Atlanta if we look at the numbers, although it felt like every Trae PNR led to a bucket.


Tell that to Clint Capella who had a much easier go of it bercause Mitch wasnt there to check him. Its easier to look good against older s,aller less mobile center ....


Chanel Bomber wrote:
The problem was that our centers couldn't make a play with the ball in their hands. That enabled McMillan to have Randle's primary defender take away his left hand, and funnel Randle to the help (Capela). We did not address that issue in the offseason. Mitch cannot make a play either, he's a rim finisher..


Ehh but with better defense on the floor its less of a "problem" I think the problem was that ATL has shooters from the swing positions up the wazoo.... Meanwhile we only had burnt out Randle and burnt out Rose..


Chanel Bomber wrote:
More shot creation helps, but doesn't address the biggest issue, which was Randle being taken away because of our centers' lack of versatility. If we replay the series now, the Hawks could still double Randle and stay home on our perimeter players. Fournier is not dominant enough as an ISO scorer to tilt the balance in our favor.

Which is why Obi needs to see minutes at the 5 and be developed as a 4/5 rather than strictly a 4 imo. More versatility, better spacing, more playmaking, more speed.



Yeah that's where we disagree I do think it addresses the biggest issue. Mitch or Noel not being more offensively versatile isn't the biggest issue(to me) . I think its actually pretty minor when you consider what they bring defensively and all the scoring we have on the team this year.

I also think to you selliingn Fournier short. I believe dude is just what he need and when you consider all the other 20ppg options on this team he's a perfect fit. He's alpha enough to get his but he also plays well within the team framework with his heady play . Just watch the videos I left in this thread...
User avatar
thebuzzardman
RealGM
Posts: 49,933
And1: 44,552
Joined: Jun 24, 2006
Location: NYCAA Wildcats

Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#64 » by thebuzzardman » Sun Sep 5, 2021 6:20 pm

Clyde_Style wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
Yeah gotta disagree.I think the biggest reason the Hawks beat us down was the lack of shot creating scoring options we had compared to them. JR and Rose were pretty much burnt from having to carry so much of the offensive load,. Noel had to start because no Mitch - whowould have guarded everyone much better, We fixed those problems IMO.

Regarding Fournier., I put him on the same level as Bogdan Bogdanović. So if you are going to include Bogdan in that top tier you can probably also put Evan there. But yes I'm optimistic and I believe we have solid reasons to be that way.

Our defense didn't suffer that much against Atlanta if we look at the numbers, although it felt like every Trae PNR led to a bucket.

The problem was that our centers couldn't make a play with the ball in their hands. That enabled McMillan to have Randle's primary defender take away his left hand, and funnel Randle to the help (Capela). We did not address that issue in the offseason. Mitch cannot make a play either, he's a rim finisher.

More shot creation helps, but doesn't address the biggest issue, which was Randle being taken away because of our centers' lack of versatility. If we replay the series now, the Hawks could still double Randle and stay home on our perimeter players. Fournier is not dominant enough as an ISO scorer to tilt the balance in our favor.

Which is why Obi needs to see minutes at the 5 and be developed as a 4/5 rather than strictly a 4 imo. More versatility, better spacing, more playmaking, more speed.


Some call the guy who set the record for FG% a rim runner, but there is a massive difference between him and Noel whom you can’t count on not to bobble the ball and lose the possession. You get the ball to Mitch and roughly two-thirds of the time he is going to score. And Mitch’s ability to receive the ball in motion is vastly superior to Noel’s. He can corral balls in the air that no one else around him can and then convert it which gives our offense an efficiency boost, especially on second shots.

I find the way people view Mitch to be way too rigid. His impact on the game is magnitudes above Noel. If he stays healthy we’ll be a threat to win any playoff series.

And as far as spacing and teams collapsing on Randle, Mitch creates MORE of a requirement for defenses to hedge the basket and back off from Randle than anyone else on the team. The fact that he’s a high percentage threat at the rim spreads our offense, does not compress it like I see so many (IMO) illogically stating that Mitch’s lack of offensive range ruins our spacing. Au contraire, it defines our threat down low with such specificity that teams can’t leave Mitch alone to double someone else or else he will score at will if his teammates recognize him.

Mitch is a major weapon on offense when surrounded by a roster proficient at shooting the three which pulls defenders out of zones and prevents them from packing the paint which ultimately makes Mitch even more viable as an offensive threat.

If Mitch stays healthy we will be a significantly better team.


So many different opinions. Where to start?
So, I agree with everyone here, to one degree or another. But not everyone entirely.

Sure, as fans we should temper our expectations, but a lot of the expectations are that the Knicks record will be about the same, but the team overall is better. I think it's better. Fournier is a more well rounded guard than Bullocks. The team will have Rose for a full year (hopefully), and will also have Kemba, who is much better than Payton. Even if he plays but 60 games.
A full season of Mitch should help, if we get it.

I'm not sure the Knicks falling to the Hawks entirely falls on Capella being able to double Randles left hand, end of story. I mean, I know eras are different, but back in the day, even the somewhat offensively challenged Knicks of the Ewing era could handle Pat being constantly doubled. Again, different era play wise, inside out, way less 3's etc.

The way I see it, that strategy worked, but it worked because the Knicks basically rolled out 2.5 complete offensive threats against the Hawks. Which ties into the Hawks just having more talent overall. Which they should because they were a year further into their rebuild. You can kind of figure the Knicks made the moves THIS year akin to the moves the Hawks made last year.
I don't like the Hawks and I hate the whiff of jockriding on them I see on here, but I'd say they've been more successful in their approach. It helps that they don't turn over their FO constantly, so Knicks a bit behind the 8ball their but oh well. Maybe they'll get 5 years of continuity out of this group.

So, basically, Randle, Rose and .5 of Barrett were all around threats. Noel is limited enough to not care about - agree there, and Bullocks you can defend with anyone, as long as that player stays home on his 3 point shot. That left Rose as the sole guy dangerous enough to get into the paint/create his own shot, since RJ...still a work in progress. He's easier to neutralize.

Adding Fournier is a big deal, even if he's a "middle tier" SG. Oh, and by the way, there are types to "middle tier". Like, we could group Trent and Hield with him, and they might be better shooters (is it by that much?) but I'd MUCH rather have Fournier, with his ability to drive, but especially his ability to pass and his team oriented mindset.
Just replacing Bullocks with Fournier gives the Hawks a harder time. Gets the defense moving more often.
Now add Kemba and the Knicks get 48 minutes of good PG play, instead of 30 fatigued minutes from Rose.

Would I like a 5 to stretch the floor? Sure, but not sure it's THAT needed, and I advocated for it, like signing Baynes or Olynyk over Noel or Taj. I think the idea of trying Obi at the 5 occasionally would have merit, if not for the fact that Obi gets pushed around by brolic SF's. Still, I'd agree that sacrificing 5-7 minutes out of Mitch/Noel/Taj to give Obi rotational time at C with Randle at PF is worth exploring in the regular season, so it could be used in the playoffs.
Hopefully, with the Knicks having an easier time scoring, Thibs might be more comfortable to experiment a little with that...but I doubt it.
Image
User avatar
RHODEY
RealGM
Posts: 13,453
And1: 8,527
Joined: May 18, 2007
Location: Straight out of a comic book

Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#65 » by RHODEY » Sun Sep 5, 2021 7:51 pm

Clyde_Style wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
Yeah gotta disagree.I think the biggest reason the Hawks beat us down was the lack of shot creating scoring options we had compared to them. JR and Rose were pretty much burnt from having to carry so much of the offensive load,. Noel had to start because no Mitch - whowould have guarded everyone much better, We fixed those problems IMO.

Regarding Fournier., I put him on the same level as Bogdan Bogdanović. So if you are going to include Bogdan in that top tier you can probably also put Evan there. But yes I'm optimistic and I believe we have solid reasons to be that way.

Our defense didn't suffer that much against Atlanta if we look at the numbers, although it felt like every Trae PNR led to a bucket.

The problem was that our centers couldn't make a play with the ball in their hands. That enabled McMillan to have Randle's primary defender take away his left hand, and funnel Randle to the help (Capela). We did not address that issue in the offseason. Mitch cannot make a play either, he's a rim finisher.

More shot creation helps, but doesn't address the biggest issue, which was Randle being taken away because of our centers' lack of versatility. If we replay the series now, the Hawks could still double Randle and stay home on our perimeter players. Fournier is not dominant enough as an ISO scorer to tilt the balance in our favor.

Which is why Obi needs to see minutes at the 5 and be developed as a 4/5 rather than strictly a 4 imo. More versatility, better spacing, more playmaking, more speed.


Some call the guy who set the record for FG% a rim runner, but there is a massive difference between him and Noel whom you can’t count on not to bobble the ball and lose the possession. You get the ball to Mitch and roughly two-thirds of the time he is going to score. And Mitch’s ability to receive the ball in motion is vastly superior to Noel’s. He can corral balls in the air that no one else around him can and then convert it which gives our offense an efficiency boost, especially on second shots.

I find the way people view Mitch to be way too rigid. His impact on the game is magnitudes above Noel. If he stays healthy we’ll be a threat to win any playoff series.

And as far as spacing and teams collapsing on Randle, Mitch creates MORE of a requirement for defenses to hedge the basket and back off from Randle than anyone else on the team. The fact that he’s a high percentage threat at the rim spreads our offense, does not compress it like I see so many (IMO) illogically stating that Mitch’s lack of offensive range ruins our spacing. Au contraire, it defines our threat down low with such specificity that teams can’t leave Mitch alone to double someone else or else he will score at will if his teammates recognize him.

Mitch is a major weapon on offense when surrounded by a roster proficient at shooting the three which pulls defenders out of zones and prevents them from packing the paint which ultimately makes Mitch even more viable as an offensive threat.

If Mitch stays healthy we will be a significantly better team.


Well said and none of this is a knock on Noel, who is so good as a backup defensively that you can sometimes forget the extra things Mitch brings to the table. But goddammit we have both!
User avatar
Clyde_Style
RealGM
Posts: 47,272
And1: 37,378
Joined: Jul 12, 2009
Location: JEWISH LASER CLINIC
Contact:
 

Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#66 » by Clyde_Style » Sun Sep 5, 2021 7:58 pm

RHODEY wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:Our defense didn't suffer that much against Atlanta if we look at the numbers, although it felt like every Trae PNR led to a bucket.

The problem was that our centers couldn't make a play with the ball in their hands. That enabled McMillan to have Randle's primary defender take away his left hand, and funnel Randle to the help (Capela). We did not address that issue in the offseason. Mitch cannot make a play either, he's a rim finisher.

More shot creation helps, but doesn't address the biggest issue, which was Randle being taken away because of our centers' lack of versatility. If we replay the series now, the Hawks could still double Randle and stay home on our perimeter players. Fournier is not dominant enough as an ISO scorer to tilt the balance in our favor.

Which is why Obi needs to see minutes at the 5 and be developed as a 4/5 rather than strictly a 4 imo. More versatility, better spacing, more playmaking, more speed.


Some call the guy who set the record for FG% a rim runner, but there is a massive difference between him and Noel whom you can’t count on not to bobble the ball and lose the possession. You get the ball to Mitch and roughly two-thirds of the time he is going to score. And Mitch’s ability to receive the ball in motion is vastly superior to Noel’s. He can corral balls in the air that no one else around him can and then convert it which gives our offense an efficiency boost, especially on second shots.

I find the way people view Mitch to be way too rigid. His impact on the game is magnitudes above Noel. If he stays healthy we’ll be a threat to win any playoff series.

And as far as spacing and teams collapsing on Randle, Mitch creates MORE of a requirement for defenses to hedge the basket and back off from Randle than anyone else on the team. The fact that he’s a high percentage threat at the rim spreads our offense, does not compress it like I see so many (IMO) illogically stating that Mitch’s lack of offensive range ruins our spacing. Au contraire, it defines our threat down low with such specificity that teams can’t leave Mitch alone to double someone else or else he will score at will if his teammates recognize him.

Mitch is a major weapon on offense when surrounded by a roster proficient at shooting the three which pulls defenders out of zones and prevents them from packing the paint which ultimately makes Mitch even more viable as an offensive threat.

If Mitch stays healthy we will be a significantly better team.


Well said and none of this is a knock on Noel, who is so good as a backup defensively that you can sometimes forget the extra things Mitch brings to the table. But goddammit we have both!


Yes, Noel gave it his all last year and I appreciate his contributions too. Ideally, he plays enough minutes to keep Mitch healthy and available for crunch time minutes and the playoffs. We’re deep at C defensively with both of them.
ImageImageImageImageImageImageImage
Jeff Van Gully
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 23,874
And1: 18,990
Joined: Jul 31, 2010
     

Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#67 » by Jeff Van Gully » Sun Sep 5, 2021 8:38 pm

Clyde_Style wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:
Some call the guy who set the record for FG% a rim runner, but there is a massive difference between him and Noel whom you can’t count on not to bobble the ball and lose the possession. You get the ball to Mitch and roughly two-thirds of the time he is going to score. And Mitch’s ability to receive the ball in motion is vastly superior to Noel’s. He can corral balls in the air that no one else around him can and then convert it which gives our offense an efficiency boost, especially on second shots.

I find the way people view Mitch to be way too rigid. His impact on the game is magnitudes above Noel. If he stays healthy we’ll be a threat to win any playoff series.

And as far as spacing and teams collapsing on Randle, Mitch creates MORE of a requirement for defenses to hedge the basket and back off from Randle than anyone else on the team. The fact that he’s a high percentage threat at the rim spreads our offense, does not compress it like I see so many (IMO) illogically stating that Mitch’s lack of offensive range ruins our spacing. Au contraire, it defines our threat down low with such specificity that teams can’t leave Mitch alone to double someone else or else he will score at will if his teammates recognize him.

Mitch is a major weapon on offense when surrounded by a roster proficient at shooting the three which pulls defenders out of zones and prevents them from packing the paint which ultimately makes Mitch even more viable as an offensive threat.

If Mitch stays healthy we will be a significantly better team.


Well said and none of this is a knock on Noel, who is so good as a backup defensively that you can sometimes forget the extra things Mitch brings to the table. But goddammit we have both!


Yes, Noel gave it his all last year and I appreciate his contributions too. Ideally, he plays enough minutes to keep Mitch healthy and available for crunch time minutes and the playoffs. We’re deep at C defensively with both of them.


both of them healthy counts for 48 excellent center minutes.
RIP magnumt

welcome home, thibs.
User avatar
Clyde_Style
RealGM
Posts: 47,272
And1: 37,378
Joined: Jul 12, 2009
Location: JEWISH LASER CLINIC
Contact:
 

Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#68 » by Clyde_Style » Sun Sep 5, 2021 8:41 pm

Jeff Van Gully wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
Well said and none of this is a knock on Noel, who is so good as a backup defensively that you can sometimes forget the extra things Mitch brings to the table. But goddammit we have both!


Yes, Noel gave it his all last year and I appreciate his contributions too. Ideally, he plays enough minutes to keep Mitch healthy and available for crunch time minutes and the playoffs. We’re deep at C defensively with both of them.


both of them healthy counts for 48 excellent center minutes.


That’s what I hope to see. I’d even be OK with them evenly splitting their minutes. That might work since it would allow them to play at full intensity which would be great for our defense
ImageImageImageImageImageImageImage
Jeff Van Gully
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 23,874
And1: 18,990
Joined: Jul 31, 2010
     

Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#69 » by Jeff Van Gully » Sun Sep 5, 2021 8:43 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:Our defense didn't suffer that much against Atlanta if we look at the numbers, although it felt like every Trae PNR led to a bucket.

The problem was that our centers couldn't make a play with the ball in their hands. That enabled McMillan to have Randle's primary defender take away his left hand, and funnel Randle to the help (Capela). We did not address that issue in the offseason. Mitch cannot make a play either, he's a rim finisher.

More shot creation helps, but doesn't address the biggest issue, which was Randle being taken away because of our centers' lack of versatility. If we replay the series now, the Hawks could still double Randle and stay home on our perimeter players. Fournier is not dominant enough as an ISO scorer to tilt the balance in our favor.

Which is why Obi needs to see minutes at the 5 and be developed as a 4/5 rather than strictly a 4 imo. More versatility, better spacing, more playmaking, more speed.


Some call the guy who set the record for FG% a rim runner, but there is a massive difference between him and Noel whom you can’t count on not to bobble the ball and lose the possession. You get the ball to Mitch and roughly two-thirds of the time he is going to score. And Mitch’s ability to receive the ball in motion is vastly superior to Noel’s. He can corral balls in the air that no one else around him can and then convert it which gives our offense an efficiency boost, especially on second shots.

I find the way people view Mitch to be way too rigid. His impact on the game is magnitudes above Noel. If he stays healthy we’ll be a threat to win any playoff series.

And as far as spacing and teams collapsing on Randle, Mitch creates MORE of a requirement for defenses to hedge the basket and back off from Randle than anyone else on the team. The fact that he’s a high percentage threat at the rim spreads our offense, does not compress it like I see so many (IMO) illogically stating that Mitch’s lack of offensive range ruins our spacing. Au contraire, it defines our threat down low with such specificity that teams can’t leave Mitch alone to double someone else or else he will score at will if his teammates recognize him.

Mitch is a major weapon on offense when surrounded by a roster proficient at shooting the three which pulls defenders out of zones and prevents them from packing the paint which ultimately makes Mitch even more viable as an offensive threat.

If Mitch stays healthy we will be a significantly better team.


So many different opinions. Where to start?
So, I agree with everyone here, to one degree or another. But not everyone entirely.

Sure, as fans we should temper our expectations, but a lot of the expectations are that the Knicks record will be about the same, but the team overall is better. I think it's better. Fournier is a more well rounded guard than Bullocks. The team will have Rose for a full year (hopefully), and will also have Kemba, who is much better than Payton. Even if he plays but 60 games.
A full season of Mitch should help, if we get it.

I'm not sure the Knicks falling to the Hawks entirely falls on Capella being able to double Randles left hand, end of story. I mean, I know eras are different, but back in the day, even the somewhat offensively challenged Knicks of the Ewing era could handle Pat being constantly doubled. Again, different era play wise, inside out, way less 3's etc.

The way I see it, that strategy worked, but it worked because the Knicks basically rolled out 2.5 complete offensive threats against the Hawks. Which ties into the Hawks just having more talent overall. Which they should because they were a year further into their rebuild. You can kind of figure the Knicks made the moves THIS year akin to the moves the Hawks made last year.
I don't like the Hawks and I hate the whiff of jockriding on them I see on here, but I'd say they've been more successful in their approach. It helps that they don't turn over their FO constantly, so Knicks a bit behind the 8ball their but oh well. Maybe they'll get 5 years of continuity out of this group.

So, basically, Randle, Rose and .5 of Barrett were all around threats. Noel is limited enough to not care about - agree there, and Bullocks you can defend with anyone, as long as that player stays home on his 3 point shot. That left Rose as the sole guy dangerous enough to get into the paint/create his own shot, since RJ...still a work in progress. He's easier to neutralize.

Adding Fournier is a big deal, even if he's a "middle tier" SG. Oh, and by the way, there are types to "middle tier". Like, we could group Trent and Hield with him, and they might be better shooters (is it by that much?) but I'd MUCH rather have Fournier, with his ability to drive, but especially his ability to pass and his team oriented mindset.
Just replacing Bullocks with Fournier gives the Hawks a harder time. Gets the defense moving more often.
Now add Kemba and the Knicks get 48 minutes of good PG play, instead of 30 fatigued minutes from Rose.

Would I like a 5 to stretch the floor? Sure, but not sure it's THAT needed, and I advocated for it, like signing Baynes or Olynyk over Noel or Taj. I think the idea of trying Obi at the 5 occasionally would have merit, if not for the fact that Obi gets pushed around by brolic SF's. Still, I'd agree that sacrificing 5-7 minutes out of Mitch/Noel/Taj to give Obi rotational time at C with Randle at PF is worth exploring in the regular season, so it could be used in the playoffs.
Hopefully, with the Knicks having an easier time scoring, Thibs might be more comfortable to experiment a little with that...but I doubt it.


we could have a crazy small ball lineup with randle and obi in the frontcourt from time to time. i hope we are able to do that when it makes defensive sense here and there. randle can go joker.
RIP magnumt

welcome home, thibs.
User avatar
Chanel Bomber
RealGM
Posts: 11,085
And1: 16,742
Joined: Sep 20, 2018
 

Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#70 » by Chanel Bomber » Sun Sep 5, 2021 9:00 pm

RHODEY wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:
Our defense didn't suffer that much against Atlanta if we look at the numbers, although it felt like every Trae PNR led to a bucket.


Tell that to Clint Capella who had a much easier go of it bercause Mitch wasnt there to check him. Its easier to look good against older s,aller less mobile center ....


Chanel Bomber wrote:
The problem was that our centers couldn't make a play with the ball in their hands. That enabled McMillan to have Randle's primary defender take away his left hand, and funnel Randle to the help (Capela). We did not address that issue in the offseason. Mitch cannot make a play either, he's a rim finisher..


Ehh but with better defense on the floor its less of a "problem" I think the problem was that ATL has shooters from the swing positions up the wazoo.... Meanwhile we only had burnt out Randle and burnt out Rose..


Chanel Bomber wrote:
More shot creation helps, but doesn't address the biggest issue, which was Randle being taken away because of our centers' lack of versatility. If we replay the series now, the Hawks could still double Randle and stay home on our perimeter players. Fournier is not dominant enough as an ISO scorer to tilt the balance in our favor.

Which is why Obi needs to see minutes at the 5 and be developed as a 4/5 rather than strictly a 4 imo. More versatility, better spacing, more playmaking, more speed.



Yeah that's where we disagree I do think it addresses the biggest issue. Mitch or Noel not being more offensively versatile isn't the biggest issue(to me) . I think its actually pretty minor when you consider what they bring defensively and all the scoring we have on the team this year.

I also think to you selliingn Fournier short. I believe dude is just what he need and when you consider all the other 20ppg options on this team he's a perfect fit. He's alpha enough to get his but he also plays well within the team framework with his heady play . Just watch the videos I left in this thread...

Noel's defensive contributions didn't matter much when Capela was doubling off of him to basically double Randle.

Even when Rose and IQ were sharing minutes at PG after Payton got benched, the Knicks were playing 4 shooters around our centers and it still didn't matter.

Watch this video:



Mitch doesn't solve this issue. He can't make plays with the ball either, and he actually has less range than Taj and Noel, and he's a worse free throw shooter than both of them. Yes, Mitch has better hands than Noel which helps with the catch, and he finishes around the rim better than Taj, but he's not putting fear into anyone's hearts offensively. The Hawks' gameplan would be the exact same with Mitch on the floor.

Fournier helps in that he can create his own shot - but that doesn't change anything about the fact that our best player (Randle) was rendered ineffective because of our lack of skill at center.
Image
User avatar
thebuzzardman
RealGM
Posts: 49,933
And1: 44,552
Joined: Jun 24, 2006
Location: NYCAA Wildcats

Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#71 » by thebuzzardman » Sun Sep 5, 2021 9:20 pm

Chanel Bomber wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:
Our defense didn't suffer that much against Atlanta if we look at the numbers, although it felt like every Trae PNR led to a bucket.


Tell that to Clint Capella who had a much easier go of it bercause Mitch wasnt there to check him. Its easier to look good against older s,aller less mobile center ....


Chanel Bomber wrote:
The problem was that our centers couldn't make a play with the ball in their hands. That enabled McMillan to have Randle's primary defender take away his left hand, and funnel Randle to the help (Capela). We did not address that issue in the offseason. Mitch cannot make a play either, he's a rim finisher..


Ehh but with better defense on the floor its less of a "problem" I think the problem was that ATL has shooters from the swing positions up the wazoo.... Meanwhile we only had burnt out Randle and burnt out Rose..


Chanel Bomber wrote:
More shot creation helps, but doesn't address the biggest issue, which was Randle being taken away because of our centers' lack of versatility. If we replay the series now, the Hawks could still double Randle and stay home on our perimeter players. Fournier is not dominant enough as an ISO scorer to tilt the balance in our favor.

Which is why Obi needs to see minutes at the 5 and be developed as a 4/5 rather than strictly a 4 imo. More versatility, better spacing, more playmaking, more speed.



Yeah that's where we disagree I do think it addresses the biggest issue. Mitch or Noel not being more offensively versatile isn't the biggest issue(to me) . I think its actually pretty minor when you consider what they bring defensively and all the scoring we have on the team this year.

I also think to you selliingn Fournier short. I believe dude is just what he need and when you consider all the other 20ppg options on this team he's a perfect fit. He's alpha enough to get his but he also plays well within the team framework with his heady play . Just watch the videos I left in this thread...

Noel's defensive contributions didn't matter much when Capela was doubling off of him to basically double Randle.

Even when Rose and IQ were sharing minutes at PG after Payton got benched, the Knicks were playing 4 shooters around our centers and it still didn't matter.

Watch this video:



Mitch doesn't solve this issue. He can't make plays with the ball either, and he actually has less range than Taj and Noel, and he's a worse free throw shooter than both of them. Yes, Mitch has better hands than Noel which helps with the catch, and he finishes around the rim better than Taj, but he's not putting fear into anyone's hearts offensively. The Hawks' gameplan would be the exact same with Mitch on the floor.

Fournier helps in that he can create his own shot - but that doesn't change anything about the fact that our best player (Randle) was rendered ineffective because of our lack of skill at center.


There has to be a counter to this. I'd say the counter is let Randle become the 3rd option if a team does that. I'd attack the rim with Kemba and Fournier and then where does the help come from? Capella? Then Mitch is open.

Your solution seems to lay with Obi playing C, but then Capella would just destroy him at the rim in P&R plays, though I guess Randle could guard Capella and Obi guard Collins or whoever they put at PF.

I think there are ways to beat this kind of defense without playing Obi at the 5 all game.
Image
Jeff Van Gully
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 23,874
And1: 18,990
Joined: Jul 31, 2010
     

Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#72 » by Jeff Van Gully » Sun Sep 5, 2021 9:20 pm

Chanel Bomber wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:
Our defense didn't suffer that much against Atlanta if we look at the numbers, although it felt like every Trae PNR led to a bucket.


Tell that to Clint Capella who had a much easier go of it bercause Mitch wasnt there to check him. Its easier to look good against older s,aller less mobile center ....


Chanel Bomber wrote:
The problem was that our centers couldn't make a play with the ball in their hands. That enabled McMillan to have Randle's primary defender take away his left hand, and funnel Randle to the help (Capela). We did not address that issue in the offseason. Mitch cannot make a play either, he's a rim finisher..


Ehh but with better defense on the floor its less of a "problem" I think the problem was that ATL has shooters from the swing positions up the wazoo.... Meanwhile we only had burnt out Randle and burnt out Rose..


Chanel Bomber wrote:
More shot creation helps, but doesn't address the biggest issue, which was Randle being taken away because of our centers' lack of versatility. If we replay the series now, the Hawks could still double Randle and stay home on our perimeter players. Fournier is not dominant enough as an ISO scorer to tilt the balance in our favor.

Which is why Obi needs to see minutes at the 5 and be developed as a 4/5 rather than strictly a 4 imo. More versatility, better spacing, more playmaking, more speed.



Yeah that's where we disagree I do think it addresses the biggest issue. Mitch or Noel not being more offensively versatile isn't the biggest issue(to me) . I think its actually pretty minor when you consider what they bring defensively and all the scoring we have on the team this year.

I also think to you selliingn Fournier short. I believe dude is just what he need and when you consider all the other 20ppg options on this team he's a perfect fit. He's alpha enough to get his but he also plays well within the team framework with his heady play . Just watch the videos I left in this thread...

Noel's defensive contributions didn't matter much when Capela was doubling off of him to basically double Randle.

Even when Rose and IQ were sharing minutes at PG after Payton got benched, the Knicks were playing 4 shooters around our centers and it still didn't matter.

Watch this video:



Mitch doesn't solve this issue. He can't make plays with the ball either, and he actually has less range than Taj and Noel, and he's a worse free throw shooter than both of them. Yes, Mitch has better hands than Noel which helps with the catch, and he finishes around the rim better than Taj, but he's not putting fear into anyone's hearts offensively. The Hawks' gameplan would be the exact same with Mitch on the floor.

Fournier helps in that he can create his own shot - but that doesn't change anything about the fact that our best player (Randle) was rendered ineffective because of our lack of skill at center.


excellent video breakdown of what atlanta did to keep pressure on randle. it's true that a stretch big helps open that up. i think what some are saying that when that rose/bully becomes kemba/fournier, there are more quality shot opportunities if they key in on randle. last year it was a great strategy to make randle uncomfortable. this year if you overcommit on randle there should be 2 more shot creators on the floor with him.
RIP magnumt

welcome home, thibs.
nedleeds
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,902
And1: 5,010
Joined: Dec 25, 2016
Location: Bridgeport, NY
Contact:
       

Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#73 » by nedleeds » Sun Sep 5, 2021 9:58 pm

Less to do with Fournier but the rest of the league will have their players and try a bit harder in the regular season this year. So, we might be a bit better for Kemba's 30 or so healthy games but the league won't have entire rosters out with covid.
Zenzibar wrote:Nevertheless, Payton is not a finished product yet and unless the team moves him in a couple of weeks, I anticipate him trending upward with this coaching staff.
User avatar
Chanel Bomber
RealGM
Posts: 11,085
And1: 16,742
Joined: Sep 20, 2018
 

Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#74 » by Chanel Bomber » Sun Sep 5, 2021 10:08 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:
RHODEY wrote:


Ehh but with better defense on the floor its less of a "problem" I think the problem was that ATL has shooters from the swing positions up the wazoo.... Meanwhile we only had burnt out Randle and burnt out Rose..





Yeah that's where we disagree I do think it addresses the biggest issue. Mitch or Noel not being more offensively versatile isn't the biggest issue(to me) . I think its actually pretty minor when you consider what they bring defensively and all the scoring we have on the team this year.

I also think to you selliingn Fournier short. I believe dude is just what he need and when you consider all the other 20ppg options on this team he's a perfect fit. He's alpha enough to get his but he also plays well within the team framework with his heady play . Just watch the videos I left in this thread...

Noel's defensive contributions didn't matter much when Capela was doubling off of him to basically double Randle.

Even when Rose and IQ were sharing minutes at PG after Payton got benched, the Knicks were playing 4 shooters around our centers and it still didn't matter.

Watch this video:



Mitch doesn't solve this issue. He can't make plays with the ball either, and he actually has less range than Taj and Noel, and he's a worse free throw shooter than both of them. Yes, Mitch has better hands than Noel which helps with the catch, and he finishes around the rim better than Taj, but he's not putting fear into anyone's hearts offensively. The Hawks' gameplan would be the exact same with Mitch on the floor.

Fournier helps in that he can create his own shot - but that doesn't change anything about the fact that our best player (Randle) was rendered ineffective because of our lack of skill at center.


There has to be a counter to this. I'd say the counter is let Randle become the 3rd option if a team does that. I'd attack the rim with Kemba and Fournier and then where does the help come from? Capella? Then Mitch is open.

Your solution seems to lay with Obi playing C, but then Capella would just destroy him at the rim in P&R plays, though I guess Randle could guard Capella and Obi guard Collins or whoever they put at PF.

I think there are ways to beat this kind of defense without playing Obi at the 5 all game.

At the end of the day, it's all about Randle being an incredibly tough player to build around because he's a tweener. There's just a fit issue with Randle (as a high-usage player) and rim-running centers. Not enough space.

Our offense needs to start further away fron the rim to be more dynamic with a rim-running center. Will Kemba, Fournier and RJ take that responsibility at the expense of Julius and be efficient at it? That remains to be seen. Julius got the big bucks. I agree with your suggestion of Julius being a 3rd option, but he's still on paper our best player (although one could make the case that Rose is).

Against a rim-runner/protector like Capela, I think we need to play Obi and Randle at the five. Mitch and Noel are highly valuable against other match-ups.

PS: I think you're safe if you switch with some size initially defending Trae (a wing) and dare Capela to post-up over a smaller defender. Lue did a masterclass against a better rim-runner in the WCSF. It's risky but doable.
Image
User avatar
HarthorneWingo
Knicks Forum Grandpa's Law
Posts: 71,185
And1: 36,091
Joined: May 16, 2005
   

Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#75 » by HarthorneWingo » Sun Sep 5, 2021 11:24 pm

8516knicks wrote:Everyone has a seemingly good take on this. But the real question is - Health. We need 60 plus games out of Kemba, Fournier and all our principle players and we need them ALL healthy for the playoffs including MITCH. Let's see him earn that next contract! If everything hums along nicely we might be looking at 47 wins and maybe (I said MAYBE) 2 playoff series wins.


True, health is always that X factor. I thought out trainers and medical staff did a great job last season managing it last season (except for Frank, of course :noway: ). Since “health@ is a factor for every team, it’s pretty much a wash when doing preseason prognostications.
User avatar
HarthorneWingo
Knicks Forum Grandpa's Law
Posts: 71,185
And1: 36,091
Joined: May 16, 2005
   

Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#76 » by HarthorneWingo » Sun Sep 5, 2021 11:26 pm

Chanel Bomber wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:Noel's defensive contributions didn't matter much when Capela was doubling off of him to basically double Randle.

Even when Rose and IQ were sharing minutes at PG after Payton got benched, the Knicks were playing 4 shooters around our centers and it still didn't matter.

Watch this video:



Mitch doesn't solve this issue. He can't make plays with the ball either, and he actually has less range than Taj and Noel, and he's a worse free throw shooter than both of them. Yes, Mitch has better hands than Noel which helps with the catch, and he finishes around the rim better than Taj, but he's not putting fear into anyone's hearts offensively. The Hawks' gameplan would be the exact same with Mitch on the floor.

Fournier helps in that he can create his own shot - but that doesn't change anything about the fact that our best player (Randle) was rendered ineffective because of our lack of skill at center.


There has to be a counter to this. I'd say the counter is let Randle become the 3rd option if a team does that. I'd attack the rim with Kemba and Fournier and then where does the help come from? Capella? Then Mitch is open.

Your solution seems to lay with Obi playing C, but then Capella would just destroy him at the rim in P&R plays, though I guess Randle could guard Capella and Obi guard Collins or whoever they put at PF.

I think there are ways to beat this kind of defense without playing Obi at the 5 all game.

At the end of the day, it's all about Randle being an incredibly tough player to build around because he's a tweener. There's just a fit issue with Randle (as a high-usage player) and rim-running centers. Not enough space.

Our offense needs to start further away fron the rim to be more dynamic with a rim-running center. Will Kemba, Fournier and RJ take that responsibility at the expense of Julius and be efficient at it? That remains to be seen. Julius got the big bucks. I agree with your suggestion of Julius being a 3rd option, but he's still on paper our best player (although one could make the case that Rose is).

Against a rim-runner/protector like Capela, I think we need to play Obi and Randle at the five. Mitch and Noel are highly valuable against other match-ups.

PS: I think you're safe if you switch with some size initially defending Trae (a wing) and dare Capela to post-up over a smaller defender. Lue did a masterclass against a better rim-runner in the WCSF. It's risky but doable.


Just make the court bigger for crying out loud!
8516knicks
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,471
And1: 759
Joined: May 18, 2017
   

Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#77 » by 8516knicks » Mon Sep 6, 2021 1:37 am

Mister Ed wrote:5 win improvement - based on the new guards and Mitch full season. 46-26.


That's a lot of ties for an NBA season (10) :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
8516knicks
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,471
And1: 759
Joined: May 18, 2017
   

Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#78 » by 8516knicks » Mon Sep 6, 2021 1:43 am

HarthorneWingo wrote:
8516knicks wrote:Everyone has a seemingly good take on this. But the real question is - Health. We need 60 plus games out of Kemba, Fournier and all our principle players and we need them ALL healthy for the playoffs including MITCH. Let's see him earn that next contract! If everything hums along nicely we might be looking at 47 wins and maybe (I said MAYBE) 2 playoff series wins.


True, health is always that X factor. I thought out trainers and medical staff did a great job last season managing it last season (except for Frank, of course :noway: ). Since “health@ is a factor for every team, it’s pretty much a wash when doing preseason prognostications.


Our age/fragility issues are likely more significant than a young team like Atlanta, for instance. Kemba/Rose = almost ready for old-timers games given their injury history and Mitch ... let's see him play 72 games and be there for the playoffs. Or cut bait. It really comes down to that; if Mitch can't stay on the court we need someone who can. And more skilled offensively than Noel and Taj.
User avatar
FlashFlood
Rookie
Posts: 1,163
And1: 380
Joined: Feb 08, 2005

Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#79 » by FlashFlood » Mon Sep 6, 2021 5:10 am

Yes Kemba and Fournier will result in more regular season wins. Removing Elfrid's 20% 3pt shooting from the floor will open up the floor immensely. In fact, I would actually say that the team as currently constructed (4x40% 3pt shooters, and a 70% FG C) is an analytics wet dream. How many teams in the league can keep up with that kind of lineup if the Knicks decide to run and gun?

So, bold prediction, the Knicks are a top seed in the east next year. Even with the East's improvement and everyone returning healthy.

Now the real question is do Kemba and Fournier add post-season wins?
User avatar
HighRyzer83
General Manager
Posts: 8,930
And1: 2,022
Joined: Nov 20, 2004
Location: Fan on Fire

Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#80 » by HighRyzer83 » Mon Sep 6, 2021 10:10 am

Last year Knicks win percentage was .569, that equates to approx 47 wins in a full season.

You would think a healthy Mitch alone is worth about 2,3 more wins. I don't know how many games should result from upgrading the 1 dimensional Bullock, who's a streaky spot shooter, to a legit 3-tier scoring threat and even a better shooter.

But replacing that bum elfrid for a legit PG borderline all star, is worth at least like 5 more games.

Return to New York Knicks